In an exclusive interview with India Today, RSS ideologue Seshadri Chari, who was arrested during the Emergency, said Indira Gandhi imposed the Emergency to save her chair.
00:00Among the many who was arrested during the emergency was senior BJP RSS leader Seshadri Chari.
00:07I caught up with him to find out what the emergency was like.
00:18And joining me now is veteran BJP RSS leader Seshadri Chari, himself a former editor of the organiser
00:26and someone who went to prison, Arthur Road Jail, for six months during the emergency.
00:31Appreciate your joining us, Mr. Chari.
00:33On the 50th anniversary of the emergency, what are your prime recollections of those dark days
00:40when you were a young RSS activist?
00:44They were dark days, no doubt about it.
00:46But I have mixed feelings.
00:48Actually, I was just 22, 23 at that time.
00:53Still just out of the college.
00:56And I was doing, pursuing my LLB at that time.
01:01So, it was fun actually working against the government.
01:08There was a ban on RSS.
01:09So, there was no shaka, nothing.
01:11So, we used to write pamphlets, print pamphlets, and then distribute pamphlets.
01:19All these things were going on.
01:21But I, being a South Indian family, Tamilian family, staying in Mattunga, probably the police did not imagine that I could be part of the RSS.
01:34So, I was not a, not a suspect.
01:36I was not a candidate for MESA or DRI.
01:40But later on, we organized Satyagraha and I was supposed to be, you know, like translating and getting printed material against emergency.
01:52And if you remember, Tamil Nadu government was, DMK government in Tamil Nadu was against emergency, that was dismissed after that.
02:01But then, there was a time when we could get things printed there.
02:05So, this was, I mean, this was going on.
02:07So, it was a fight against a, a, a, a, a, a, a government, but we, we were quite strong against a government at that time.
02:18I, I was part of the Satyagraha.
02:20And, and you were, you were arrested for, and you were arrested, and, and you were arrested for the Satyagraha or for printing these pamphlets against the government?
02:30Why was Seshadri, why were you and many activists like you arrested?
02:35I, actually, what happened was, there was a Satyagraha which we are planning.
02:39We had planned a Satyagraha in a fort area.
02:42If you, since you are from Mumbai, you know the fountain area.
02:46That was the place, bang, opposite times of India, we wanted Satyagraha to happen.
02:52So, we were organizing it, and I was the one who was organizing that particular Satyagraha, and giving them pamphlets, and then distributing, and all that.
03:00So, I was not supposed to be part of Satyagraha, but somehow, some people got messed up, and I had to intervene.
03:08And at that time of intervention, I was arrested.
03:11So, what happened was, because I was treated as a Satyagraha, I mean, like we were all put in the Arthur Road jail, and then there was an ordinary case of violation of 144, and such things, and after six months, we were let off.
03:29But there were people who were targeted because they were RSS workers, they were put under MISA, they were put under Defense of India Rules, and they were ill-treated.
03:42These things have happened, but even in Arthur Road jail.
03:45But, you know, Mr. Chari, there are two views on the RSS's role.
03:53There are those who believe that the RSS was taking on Indira Gandhi and the emergency.
03:59In fact, congressmen from the time accused the RSS of spreading anarchy before 1975 by targeting the Indira Gandhi government.
04:07And then there are others who say the RSS leadership was very keen on a compromise with Indira Gandhi and never really wanted to speak out against the emergency because they didn't want to go to prison.
04:20Which is the true story?
04:21Was the RSS ready to compromise with Indira Gandhi on the emergency, or was the RSS defiant and taking on Indira Gandhi?
04:27See, both are not true, to tell you very frankly. Emergency had nothing to do with the RSS.
04:34If you remember in 1971, after the elections, Indira Gandhi, there was a clean sweep for Indira Gandhi.
04:42And that time, the Jansang leader was Balraj Madhok, who even, he started this ink business.
04:51There was an ink that disappears and all those things happened.
04:56And I don't want to go into those details now. You know better.
05:00After that was the 71 war, the liberation of Bangladesh.
05:04RSS was one of the biggest supporters of Indira Gandhi at that time.
05:08Jansang was one of the biggest supporters of Indira Gandhi at that time.
05:12We were, Jansang and RSS were in the forefront, asking Mrs. Indira Gandhi to recognize Bangladesh and liberate Bangladesh.
05:20And then, when she did it, she fought against the might of a country like America at that time.
05:26So, we were actually happy with, RSS was happy with Mrs. Indira Gandhi.
05:30It was after that, when the Jaiprakash Narayan movement started, that was a political movement.
05:36And which is very obviously, when there are political parties, they would join hands with Jai Prakash Narayan and that Samagra Kranti, Samya Kranti, Samagra Kranti, all those things started.
05:49And then Navanirman Samiti, if you remember, it started from Gujarat at that time.
05:54The first revolution or anti-Indira Gandhi problem started there and many congressmen were against her.
06:03People like Chandrasekhar, Mohan Darya, they were all against her.
06:08So, it was actually to save her own chair, save her own position as the Prime Minister, she declared emergency.
06:17RSS had nothing to do with emergency.
06:19So, you're saying that the RSS's role was to support Jai Prakash Narayan, who the congress claims was trying to create anarchy in the country by asking for the army to rebel.
06:35You believe all of, you believe the real reason though was Indira Gandhi trying to protect her chair above all else.
06:41You don't accept that Jai Prakash Narayan's total revolution or Sampoorna Kranti, all of it was designed actually to topple Indira Gandhi and therefore she brought in emergency to save the chair.
06:53Probably without declaring emergency if she had allowed, if you remember at that time, George Fernandes had called for railway strike and that was one of the most successful railway strike at that time.
07:08So, all these factors combined, but if these factors in a scale of 1 to 10, if they were 5, the real factors that affected her was opposition from her own party.
07:23So, she had to do that, so emergency, 50% of emergency was for people like Jai Prakash Narayan and Jansang at that time.
07:32The rest of the 50% of the emergency was for her own party.
07:38I don't think that was the fear.
07:40But tell me, Mr. Chari, do you see Indira Gandhi as Durga, as some were calling her after the Bangladesh war or do you see her as a dictator as many saw her after the emergency?
07:59Which is the real Indira Gandhi according to you, the Durga or the dictator?
08:02In fact, Atal B. Harivaj Prakash later on told me, I don't know how to say Durga, but I don't know how to say Durga is after me.
08:11So, anyway, I think there are two Indira Gandhis or several Indira Gandhis.
08:20One was the 1971 Indira Gandhi, the political Indira Gandhi, who said, I am saying that I am going to remove the garbage, and people say that I am going to remove the garbage, and I am going to remove the garbage.
08:29So, she swept the polls, so she could, you know, very efficiently coin slogans and win elections.
08:37Garibi is still there, but she won on the election of Garibi Hattop.
08:42She stood against the might of America, that was something absolutely great, and she broke the back of Pakistan by creating Bangladesh.
08:50So, that is one Indira Gandhi.
08:51Again, she was greedy enough to perpetuate her own power, remain in political power, remain as the Prime Minister, probably for life, and that was something that she could never forego, and she had a soft corner for Sanjay Gandhi.
09:09All these factors put together makes her a very complex personality.
09:15You cannot put Indira Gandhi under one particular, you know, box.
09:22Very, you know, that's very interesting the way you are putting it, because today there are a lot of people who draw parallels, there I say, between Indira Gandhi and Narendra Modi.
09:31And they say that in 2025, India has an undeclared emergency. Indira Gandhi declared emergency, suspended parliament and constitutional rights.
09:41They argue that today there is also an undeclared emergency, institutions are misused, media is misused, and there is almost a personality cult around one person,
09:53like there was around Indira Gandhi, when Devkan Barua said India is Indira, and Indira is India. Do you believe that there is any parallel that one can draw between 1975 and 2025?
10:04Rajdeep, had there been even 1% of emergency that was there in 1975 today, I don't think you will be doing a show like this.
10:13The fact that we are all talking about the Prime Minister, the fact that we are criticizing the Prime Minister, the fact that the media is free to write whatever they want about the Prime Minister,
10:25the fact that people like you and there are, I don't want to name some of them, who had written books against Prime Minister and got it published.
10:35I mean, there is no comparison, there is no comparison at all.
10:38Sir, let me clarify on that one point. I have not written a book against, no, no, no, Mr. Chari, I have not written a book against the Prime Minister,
10:47but I have criticized him where it is necessary, and I have also praised him where it is necessary. So, you know, let me clarify that, but go ahead.
10:56Yeah, fine. So, I take back. I know. But see, Rajdeep, the kind of freedom that we enjoy today, you cannot compare this kind of situation with emergency at all.
11:07Emergency, those who have seen emergency, I mean, there were people who were trained to suspect. People would suspect brothers and would suspect another brother.
11:16Political parties, people within the political parties would be suspecting one another. I know so many Congress people who used to openly say that this is the darkest period.
11:28Congress people in that period. Congress people in that time. I mean, there were a lot of people in the Congress party at that time also. So, the only people, even CPI, Dange's Communist Party of India was a supporter of Mrs. Indira Gandhi and her emergency at that time.
11:45CPM was against. But CPM people were in the jail, along with Jansung and other people. But CPI was not there. But even CPI people used to secretly tell us that this emergency has to go. There is no freedom.
12:00That was the kind of situation. Even CPI papers were closed. CPM papers were of course closed. Organizer was closed. Motherland was closed. There was no freedom of the press. There was censorship.
12:12The kind of situation that existed in 1975 cannot be imagined by the people who are now criticizing the government and comparing them with emergency. Not at all. There is no shred of comparison. Not at all.
