- 6/25/2025
Days after the US hit Iran's nuclear facilities, Pakistan is in fear. Pakistani media and analysts fear that Pakistan's nuclear programme might be the next target for the US or Israel.
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00:00Pakistan is in panic. The 12-day war between Israel and Iran, US Air Force B-2 Spirit Bombers
00:11using GBU-57 massive ordnance penetrators to decimate Iranian nuclear facilities,
00:18whether in Forda or in Natan, a firing of those 30 tomahawk troops missiles to take down
00:23the Iranian nuclear facilities at Isfahan. Now, Pakistan's big fear is its nuclear
00:29assets may be next. Remember, for decades, Pakistan hailed its nuclear bomb as that
00:36big Islamic bomb. Now, Pakistan is scared. Its bombs may be next.
00:51US strikes Iran. Panic in Pakistan.
00:59Pakistan calls emergency security meat. Pakistan fears Iran rerun. Pakistan raises alarm over
01:23US and Israel.
01:30Are Pakistan's nukes next on target? Big focus on India first.
01:36Remember, former Pakistani Prime Minister Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, he used to say,
01:45that they'll eat roti made of grass, but they will have their nuclear bomb, which they hailed
01:54was their Islamic bomb to protect the Islamic umma or to protect the Islamic brotherhood. Not many
01:59remember, former Iranian President Rafsanjani in Tehran. He'd spoken to then-Pakistani Prime Minister
02:07Benazir Bhutto about cooperation on nuclear technology and the bomb. And this went way back in 1989.
02:14So, Pakistan, a country that's notorious as the nuclear Walmart, a global nuclear black market,
02:22is that the reason why Pakistan is very scared today? We are not saying that. We are not saying
02:28Pakistan is scared. Your voices from within Pakistan, they fear they may be targeted next either by
02:36Israel or by the United States of America or the two working in tandem with India. I'm Gaurav
02:43Savant. We'll get you much more on Pakistan's fears. But first, as always, the headlines on India first.
02:53The Narendra Modi government marks death of democracy day as it remembers 50 years of emergency.
03:00Union Home Minister Amit Shah says Prime Minister Modi fought for Ambedkar's constitution against
03:07Indira Gandhi's dictatorship. Congress counters, alleges undeclared emergency in India,
03:12India, right now. Shashi Tharoor versus Congress fight escalates. Malik Arjun Khargay says,
03:24it is country first for his party, but Modi first for Shashi Tharoor. Congress MP posts a cryptic message
03:32says, no permission needed to fly. What is Tharoor hinting at?
03:37Group captain Shubhanshu Shukla becomes the first Indian to go to the International Space Station.
03:50Shuk says, Jay Hind, Jay Bharat. Soon after, he blasts off on board the Falcon rocket.
03:59The Central Board of Secondary Education approves two board exam policies for class 10 students.
04:12and start the journey of the women's space program.
04:15Go to the
04:15the
04:21The Central Board of Secondary Education approves two board exam policy for class 10 students.
04:26First exam in February and the second in May.
04:30The new system aims to reduce pressure and offer a second chance to students.
04:43Monsoon triggers, flash floods in Himachal Pradesh, severe flooding in Kullu.
04:48After a cloud burst, the med department predicts heavy rains till the 30th of June.
05:03So Israel and Iran, they've agreed to a ceasefire.
05:07But there is absolute fear and panic in Pakistan.
05:10The U.S. strikes on Iran's nuclear sites has triggered a complete meltdown in Pakistan
05:15with Pakistani media and their strategic affairs analysts raising alarm and apprehension
05:21that Pakistan's nuclear program may be targeted next by the United States or Israel,
05:28or perhaps the two of them together. Pakistan fears what Israel and America did to Iran.
05:34The same B2 Spirit bombers, the same GBU-57 bombs could now drop on Kahoota.
05:41That's Pakistan's big fear and not just Kahoota.
05:44Remember, India's Operation Sindur sent out a very clear message.
05:48It showed how vulnerable Pakistan's air defense systems are.
05:52And anyways, Pakistan's entire air defense systems are aimed at India in case the U.S. and Israel were to
05:57strike from the other side.
05:58That's what Pakistanis fear. We are not saying that.
06:00Hear the Pakistanis, hear their fears.
06:03I'll get you more on that story.
06:05The U.S. strikes on Iran's nuclear sites has triggered massive alarm in Pakistan.
06:22From the local media to the country's top strategic minds are shaken,
06:26fearing a similar targeting of Pakistanis nuclear program.
06:30The U.S.
06:59There is also absolute distrust of the Pakistani military establishment.
07:07The world saw Pakistan's predictable doublespeak as its field marshal first sought a Nobel peace
07:14prize for Trump and then slammed America for its strikes on Iran.
07:19Pakistani media is now questioning their own country's role in the West Asia war.
07:29According to intelligence agencies in Washington, Pakistani military is secretively developing
07:53a nuclear-tipped intercontinental ballistic missile ICBM that could reach United States.
07:59The report by Foreign Affairs comes amid reports that Pakistan was looking to upgrade its
08:05nuclear arsenal without support from China after India's Operation Sindhu.
08:10The report, quoting US officials, said if Pakistan goes on to acquire such a missile, Washington
08:16would designate the country as a nuclear adversary.
08:20Last year, Washington imposed fresh sanctions related to Pakistan's long-range ballistic missiles
08:26program.
08:27India was saying that we are not at war with Pakistan, we are simply at war with the
08:32terrorists.
08:33According to Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, SIPRI, Pakistan had 170 stored nuclear
08:39warheads in 2024 nuclear warheads in 2024.
08:45Israel has a long-standing doctrine of preemptively striking nuclear facilities of hostile or potential
08:51hostile states.
08:52Pakistan fits the profile of a next logical
08:58target in Israel's counter-proliferation strategy in Israel's counter-proliferation strategy
09:03post-Iran.
09:04Will it happen?
09:05Pakistan certainly fears so.
09:06Bureo report, India today.
09:14Bureo report, India today.
09:22Pakistan fears, Pakistan fears, Pakistan fears, its nukes may be targeted next.
09:33And remember, Pakistan has been notorious virtually across the world as a nuclear wall mark, a nuclear
09:38black market.
09:39Remember, the father of the Pakistani bomb, Dr. Abdul Qadir Khan had been accused of selling
09:51technology and Pakistani Air Force C-130 aircraft were seen flying to Tehran amidst reports of
09:55Pakistan.
09:56Pakistani ships were caught on the Suez Canal when they were carrying technology for Libya.
10:00All of that was happening illegally.
10:03So, a nuclear black market that Pakistan is, it's actually part of Pakistan's state policy.
10:08Is that the reason why Pakistan is so scared today?
10:12It's scared, it may be bombed next by the Americans and India majors assist them.
10:18Joining me on this India Today special broadcast is Lieutenant General KJS Dhillan.
10:22He is former Director General of India's Defense Intelligence Agency.
10:27Dr. Tara Kartha is former Director at the National Security Council Secretariat.
10:31Sushant Sareen is a Senior Fellow at the Observer Research Foundation.
10:34And Sushant Sareen, what do you make of this Pakistani fear that their Islamic bomb may be
10:40targeted next either by Israel or by the United States of America?
10:44And Sushant Sareen, you do remember in the 1980s, apparently, there was such a plan.
10:50Yeah, Gaurav, one, I think, you know, in the initial report of your show, you were showing that imbecile
10:56Ahmed Meer, who thinks that a car can run on water.
11:00So, I don't think I'd take that guy seriously.
11:03But I think what is more important is that there has always been a certain amount of paranoia in Pakistan
11:10about the security and safety of its nuclear weapons.
11:14And ironically, it's not that the nuclear weapons that Pakistan has are seen as protecting Pakistan.
11:21In fact, Pakistan is trying to protect its nuclear weapons.
11:24So, you know, that equation has been kind of turned on its head.
11:28But having said that, I think there are concerns among people who look at nuclear issues around
11:36the world, especially in the United States over the last year and a half, two years, that
11:40the Pakistanis are having a surreptitious program in which they might even be thinking of targeting
11:46the United States or at least having the reach to enter the United States.
11:52Now, one of the problems with Pakistan is that the kind of ecosystem there is in Pakistan,
11:59it's a very highly radicalized Islamized ecosystem.
12:02And even now you see members of the ruling party, including their so-called defense minister,
12:08who's basically just a chapadasi, really.
12:10He doesn't call any shots, but nevertheless, he's the defense minister of that country.
12:15People like him, people very close to the ruling family have been saying that we should be getting
12:21into an international jihad on this latest strikes in Iran.
12:26So there is that element inside Pakistan.
12:29It's part of the Pakistani mainstream, which thinks of targeting the United States,
12:34which thinks of targeting other countries with which they have religious or other differences.
12:40So there is certainly that aspect.
12:42But I think you also have to look at it in a slightly different way.
12:49One is that, you know, the Pakistanis are very cleverly and carefully because they've always been
12:55paranoid about a preemptive strike on their nuclear assets.
12:59They have dispersed their nuclear weapons.
13:01So nobody can be entirely sure where exactly those are stored.
13:06And as we are seeing in the case of Iran, even when you carry out spectacular strikes,
13:11you are still not sure whether you've actually dismantled and degraded the nuclear program to a point
13:18where you've actually rendered them toothless.
13:21So let's take this point by point.
13:24Let's take this point by point.
13:25Let me bring in General Dhillan into this conversation.
13:27General Dhillan, Pakistan is a notorious black market for nuclear weapons technology,
13:33apparently sold to North Korea, to Iran.
13:36An attempt was made to sell it to Libya.
13:38Are Pakistan's fears genuine?
13:41Does Pakistan actually, in your appreciation, fear America and Israel could attempt to take its nukes out?
13:50And would they require Indian assistance to do so as the Pakistanis fear?
13:55Gaurav, good evening and good evening to the fellow panelists and your viewers.
14:00Yes.
14:01Pakistan, you know, fulfills too many conditions to be a target for taking out the nuclear weapons.
14:09Firstly, terrorism is the biggest threat to mankind in today's world all across the globe.
14:15And Pakistan being the fountainhead of terrorism fulfills that condition.
14:20Second is, Pakistan works on the policy of a good man theory, bad man theory vis-a-vis India.
14:26Now, I'll explain this.
14:28In India, if somebody is in power, whichever political party, the theory is good man theory,
14:34that there is a democratic process, there will be elections, this party may come back.
14:38If not, the other party would come back, which would be not very irresponsible.
14:42So India always will be replaced by a responsible person.
14:46That is a good man theory.
14:47Whereas in Pakistan, every person who is in chair, he tends to give a signal,
14:52you protect me, otherwise the next chap is going to be a madman.
14:55Worse, yeah.
14:56So don't believe that next person.
14:58So every dispensation in Pakistan lives on this theory.
15:02And the third point is, Pakistan is a broke country.
15:05It can do anything for dollars.
15:08And if it has the nukes and it has the nuclear technology, it has done it in the past, they
15:15are not denying the fact that it will do it again.
15:18Hence, the world is looking at Pakistan with very big suspicion.
15:22And the fourth point is, Pakistan is like an ostrich with a head in the sand.
15:26It feels if the world needs them, that's why they're calling them for lunches and other things.
15:31So they believe them.
15:32Whereas the fact is, the world is using them for their benefit, but they are very sure in
15:38their heart of heart that here is the nuclear state, here is the terrorist state, here is
15:43a state where the Islamist terrorists run the writ.
15:46And here is a state which doesn't know who's going to be the next in the chair.
15:51And the big fear is that Pakistan poses a bigger threat to the civilized world, perhaps bigger than even Iran.
15:59Dr. Tara Kartha, is that also your understanding?
16:03And what's your reading of these Pakistani fears that its nuclear assets could be targeted
16:08and that the West, after Iran, could try and defang Pakistan?
16:13Well, there's a huge guilty conscience there, isn't it?
16:17I mean, fears always arise out of that.
16:19But like, I would agree with General Dillon on two things.
16:22One is these guys have created terror attacks, which we brought out on your program,
16:27on the countries in Europe, in US, in Indonesia, in Malaysia.
16:32These are all Pakistanis who've gone out.
16:34Number two is more importantly, the fact is, if indeed they have, that's an if,
16:40they've launched an ICBM program, they've had it.
16:44The US is not going to allow a Pakistan to target Washington.
16:50That is just not on the cards.
16:52So if that takes place, then Pakistan has very good reasons to be frightened.
16:58Number two is, it's just next to Iran, so there is the fear of what could happen next.
17:03But in practical terms, as you know, they have always been a pawn to different countries.
17:10So I don't see why the US has used Pakistan for years.
17:15And you all, we all know that history.
17:17Why would it want to bomb Pakistan?
17:19They've helped even in Iran.
17:21In fact, it's a different view that the Iranian centrifuges came from Pakistan.
17:26I mean, that's where it began, the whole game began.
17:29But we had somebody on a show recently, a US person saying,
17:33you know, the Pakistanis have never threatened the US, Iran has.
17:38I'm like, look at the crowds, what they're chanting, they're burning your flag.
17:42So there's this kind of, you know, shuttered view of Pakistan, which they take full advantage of.
17:49So I'll stop there.
17:50No, you're absolutely right.
17:52You know, we had Reverend Banks on the show the other day,
17:55who for some reason just didn't believe that Pakistanis posed a threat to the Americans,
18:00despite down with America being chanted every other day in Pakistan, quite like in Iran.
18:05But Sushant Sareen, Pakistanis have feared an Israeli plan even in the past.
18:10I want to draw you to reports that had emerged sometimes in the early 1990s,
18:15that Israel had suggested to India that India and Israel work together.
18:19This was, this appeared in Pakistani media pretty extensively that time,
18:24that India and Israel collaborate to take out Kahuta in Rawalpindi district.
18:29Was there such a plan that never materialized?
18:32You know, some reports seem to indicate that Indira Gandhi at that time had backed out at the last moment.
18:37So, Gaurav, one on Reverend Banks, I don't even know whether he knows where Pakistan is.
18:45If you give him a map of the world, if he can even point out where Pakistan is.
18:50So I, frankly, those guys, I don't take seriously.
18:54But look, there are two parts to it.
18:56One is, was there a plan?
18:58Now, there is some literature that the Pakistani, even after the nuclear tests in 1998,
19:07the Pakistanis went to town, you know, that a couple of nights before they tested,
19:12they went to town that India and Israel, that Israeli jets have landed in India,
19:17and India and Israel are together likely to come and bomb Pakistani nuclear sites.
19:22That was one.
19:23But earlier in the 80s, also, there was this talk that India and Israel were collaborating to take out Kahuta.
19:31Again, we have not heard anything to, you know, affirm that whether that was actually the case from an Indian source.
19:40And I would always take Pakistani sources with tons of salt.
19:43So that is the second.
19:44The third part is, and which is of greater concern to me.
19:48So even let us imagine a situation where the Americans or the Israelis or somebody else decide
19:53that the Pakistani nukes now present a clear and present danger.
19:57And they need to take those out.
19:59Now, the problem is going to be that once you start bombing Pakistani nuclear facilities,
20:04there are two issues now.
20:06One is that, there are three actually.
20:09One is, can you take them all out?
20:11Second, assuming you can take them all out.
20:14Then there is the second attendant problem.
20:17What happens to the fallout?
20:19Supposing you are going to be bombing places where enrichment facilities are taking place.
20:23We are right on the goddamn border.
20:25There is a reason why between India and Pakistan, we have an agreement that we will not attack each other's nuclear facilities.
20:31And if supposing some third party was also going to come and start attacking Pakistani nuclear facilities,
20:36then there is that very real danger of fallout coming on to India.
20:40And that's not something we are looking forward to.
20:44And the third problem is going to be that if you don't get all of them, then it is part of the Pakistani strategic thinking, strategic doctrines,
20:51that no matter who attacks us, no matter if some Martian comes and attacks us or our nuclear facilities, our response is going to be that we are going to attack India and India's nuclear facilities.
21:04This is that, you know, that childish, purile behavior, doctrines, which, you know, small four-year, three-year-old kids have,
21:11that if mother has scolded one kid, that kid will go and beat the sibling because he thinks that he can trouble the mother.
21:19That is the Pakistani attitude vis-a-vis India.
21:22So, even if we have no part to play in it, if there is an attack on Pakistani news, then the Pakistanis thing is that we are going to come and attack India.
21:31Now, we just have a neighbor from hell and we just need to be prepared to, you know, deal with them with whatever they bring towards us and then do whatever we need to do.
21:43So, I think we need to be, we need to look at it from that aspect also, which very often we miss out.
21:50Iranians did not take a bomb to attack the Israeli and in many other cases that has not been the case.
21:56General Dhillan, Operation Sindur was a very clear signal that India will no longer fall for Pakistan's nuclear blackmail.
22:02Because when you look at images of what India did during Operation Sindur and each time I come back to it,
22:08because I think that was spectacular, the manner in which 13 air bases and radar stations in Pakistan were targeted.
22:16That completely exposes the vulnerabilities of Pakistan.
22:20Their air defence system is not worth whatever they may have begged, borrowed or paid China for.
22:27Has that also increased Pakistan's fears?
22:30That if India can destroy air bases, America and Israel can very easily do that to them from the other side?
22:39Gaurav, totally agree with you.
22:42On one hand, Pakistan's normal conventional capabilities was so badly exposed during Operation Sindur,
22:51that they will have to now start calling the nuclear buggy all over again.
22:56And second point is, when everyone was either neutral or with Israel,
23:01Pakistan was the country which was standing with Iran during the recent conflict which was there in that area.
23:08So that probably has not gone down well with the USA, in spite of their army chief having had lunch with the US president.
23:16So these things, when the conventional defences are a risk or are a sort of a liability,
23:23then the calling of nuclear bluff is very, very important.
23:28And whatever little air defence they have, in case Pakistan gets attacked from multiple directions,
23:34that is, it opens the front with India towards the east, and then towards the west there is Iran,
23:40which may become friendly subsequently, but towards the south, the Arabian Sea, the naval assets,
23:45and anything coming from American assets from that direction.
23:49I don't think Pakistan's capability can, you know, deny access from east as well as from south,
23:56as far as the air defence is concerned.
23:58So Pakistan is not in a very good position, and their doubts that they may be the next are very well founded.
24:06And the point which Kartham Iam was making, in case they attempt to have the ICBMs which can reach Washington,
24:15I think that will be the last straw on the camel's back.
24:18Because America is already warning them.
24:20The US will not accept anything on their homeland.
24:22The US is prepared to accept anything on anyone else's homeland, but not on their homeland.
24:27True, and of course now India is saying nothing on our homeland either, that we are very clear about.
24:34But Dr. Tara Kartha, there have been reports of joint exercises to defang Pakistan, to take out their nuclear assets.
24:41Is that Pakistan's, you know, biggest fear?
24:45Like, unlike Iran, they don't have a Fordo-like facility where they can store their enriched uranium, you know,
24:5390 metres deep or 80 metres deep.
24:56And Operation Sindhur has also exposed their vulnerabilities.
24:59But is there bigger fear, a strike or sanctions that may follow should they actually go ahead with the intercontinental ballistic missile?
25:10Because why would they require an ICBM?
25:12That's a very good question.
25:14I just want to make one point.
25:16See, CENTCOM, as I think one of them said on your show, they have a standby force,
25:23which will go into Pakistan at any time when they feel there is a threat.
25:29They know exactly where these things are stored.
25:33And that was, if I'm not mistaken, that's public knowledge.
25:36And that's something, of course, we also know.
25:38We also know where things are.
25:39It's not that we don't.
25:41Number two, the problem is, theirs is a plutonium program, unlike Iran.
25:46Iran's is a uranium enrichment.
25:48So the rate is much less.
25:50So here you have a very real danger.
25:53So I think the possibility is, if at all something happens, which, again, I doubt, I don't know,
26:01is the sanctions route.
26:02Because they are already in such a bad place in terms of their economy,
26:08that sanctions on them, but by just the US, that's good enough.
26:13China is not going to support that, that for obvious reasons.
26:17But they cannot, they have not had much luck with China either, in terms of their rolling over their loans.
26:22But how long will Beijing do this?
26:25As one Beijing professor came and said, he said, CPEC is not a charitable organization.
26:31She told the Pakistanis this.
26:33So let's see how this plays out.
26:35But in terms of taking those out, obviously there's a risk.
26:41But I think these guys know where the things are.
26:44So I'll just stop at that point.
26:46Okay.
26:47And why would Pakistan need an ICBM?
26:51You know, is this a vanity project?
26:53Or is that a threat that they want to send out to the United States,
26:57that we can make missiles that will take out a target 11,000 kilometers away?
27:02General Dylan, your appreciation of this conversation of the ICBM
27:06and this report from Washington DC that seemed to indicate
27:09that there would be severe sanctions that will follow should there be a Pakistani ICBM?
27:16Kaurav, there is a race for Islamic leadership between Pakistan, Iran and Turkey.
27:24So all three of them want to be at the high chair representing the big brother in the Islamic world.
27:31And everywhere in the Islamic world, USA is enemy number one.
27:36In the eyes of the public, the regime may do whatever.
27:39So with that ICBM, which can go and hit the mainland USA,
27:43they are trying to tell the Islamic world that we have that capability which we can, you know, target West.
27:50But sanctions alone will not work.
27:54Because when you put sanctions on Pakistan, Pakistan will go further down.
27:58And that is one thing which China doesn't want,
28:01because China wants like the Shahukar, they want their money back.
28:04And if the sanctions happen, the China is not going to get their money back.
28:08And secondly, when sanctions happen, the extreme steps can be taken by Pakistan,
28:12which I'm saying that they can actually sell, sell the technology or technical know-how of nuclear weapons.
28:19It will be a procedure strikes, as in when the world decides.
28:23And sanctions may be only to stop the ICBM program at whatever stage it is,
28:28so that they don't actually achieve the end result.
28:32Because, Sushant Sareen, both China and the United States are seen as countries that have in the past
28:38helped Pakistan's nuclear program.
28:40In fact, the US should, as Dr. Tara Karth also pointed out and as did General Dillon,
28:46the US should actually find it easy to defank Pakistan, because they know where all the nuclear assets are.
28:52And there were some reports that seem to indicate that they not only control those locations,
28:57as some experts in Pakistan have said that even Pakistani generals did not have access to Jacobabad and to Pasni.
29:05It was completely in control of the Americans, but they also controlled the delivery mechanism,
29:10the F-16s and the storage facilities at all locations, sir.
29:14Yeah, Gaurav, a couple of things.
29:17Look, I don't know if the Americans have all the information of where the Pakistanis would have stored their nukes.
29:23And I don't think anybody would really have an entire fix on it.
29:28And in this game, until and unless you know 100%, you don't know anything.
29:33Okay, that is one.
29:34Secondly, there is this whole thing about how the Americans are going to...
29:40You know, if the threat becomes real for the Americans, then yes, I think they will take action.
29:45But I don't see how sanctions can prevent somebody from developing delivery mechanisms.
29:50Now, the Pakistanis don't depend upon only F-16s for delivery.
29:55They have missile systems which they can, you know, they can load nukes on and fire those.
30:02So, I don't think the delivery mechanism is any more a question for them.
30:07Third, and very importantly, many of these delivery mechanisms are mobile.
30:13As we saw in Iran's case, even though the Israelis had a fix on a lot of the Iranian infrastructure,
30:20if you have mobile launchers, then it's very difficult to get a fix on where exactly those are
30:25and take them out before they can fire.
30:27So, that is another factor which comes into play.
30:31And then there is that entire issue of, you know, the Pakistanis fear that if the Americans were to come for them,
30:42they must have some way to hit back at the United States, not just in some base nearby, but on the mainland.
30:52Because if they have a reach up to the mainland, for example, like North Korea now has,
30:58or if Iran had that reach, would the Americans come for the Pakistani nukes or the Iranian nukes, right?
31:06So, I think there is that factor.
31:08It's not just about vanity.
31:10It's also about trying to get a kind of power whereby you can hit back at the other side if they were to come for you.
31:19I would imagine that is what is driving the Pakistani nuclear program.
31:23And don't be surprised if the Chinese were also doing some nudge-nudge, wink-wink to let them get that kind of a capability.
31:31The Americans turned a blind eye to the Pakistani nuclear program.
31:35They did not aid it actively, right?
31:38And the reason why they did that was they needed Pakistan because they were fighting this war against communism in Afghanistan.
31:44And Pakistan was the frontline state at that point of time.
31:47They had to turn a blind eye.
31:49The Pakistanis used that opportunity to develop their nukes.
31:52The Chinese can help the Pakistanis to develop that capability and, you know, have a kind of another dog snapping at America's heel.
32:01Pakistan is a dog which keeps snapping at India's heel and keeps the Chinese, you know, the Chinese keep us occupied on the Western Front.
32:09The same thing can happen between Pakistan and the United States and the Chinese will laugh their way to the bank.
32:15And sanctions will never be able to achieve this.
32:19And I am not sure if military force will be able to do it.
32:22So, I think it's anybody's guess how, if you want to defank Pakistan, how you are going to go about it.
32:29Okay. Dr. Tarakarta, your appreciation, how can one defank Pakistani nukes should push come to shove?
32:35Because of that nudge-nudge, wink-wink, letting the Pakistanis get the nuke.
32:40What are the consequences in your appreciation, you know, for the US to do so?
32:46Because in case, you know, Pakistan gets those intercontinental ballistic missiles and in case Pakistan can threaten the US,
32:53then the US would ultimately, instead of taking on Pakistan, will end up turning a blind eye even further.
32:59Or will it then, like it took on Iran, will take on Pakistan?
33:03I know, just as you all were talking, I was just wondering if this is a little bit of nuclear blackmail by Pakistan.
33:11Saying, I'll develop this or else.
33:13This is Pakistan's strategy.
33:15You've seen their doctrine, right?
33:17It's staggering.
33:19They say, if I get economically weak, I will attack.
33:22If I get my ships are stopped, I will attack.
33:24So this, you know, if you look at the history of US nuclear engagement, whenever a country goes beyond the point, it kind of co-opts it.
33:37That's what it does always.
33:38Even with France, the UK completely ended their program.
33:42France, of course, it co-opted.
33:44Pakistan is a different kettle of fish.
33:46So this could be an attempt at getting, again, they are desperate for US attention and money.
33:53So I'm just wondering if this is the way it is going.
33:56Because defang is, well, like Sushant said, it's not the easiest thing.
34:01And given the track record, General Dillon, you know, the last two minutes I have on this part of the show,
34:06look at Abdul Qadir Khan selling nuclear technology, not just to Iran, but also to Libya.
34:11U.S. and allies, in short, Libya was not armed.
34:15Iran is now repeatedly being targeted.
34:17But U.S. continues to have this double standards when it comes to Pakistan.
34:22It was an ally in the war against Soviet Union in Afghanistan.
34:27And then again to take on Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan.
34:30But U.S. knows Pakistan's been playing a double game throughout with Osama bin Laden in Abbottabad.
34:36And that long list, including Daniel Pearl being killed in Pakistan.
34:40And yet U.S. doesn't take any action. Why?
34:44Gaurav, firstly, I tend to agree with Dr. Kartham.
34:48Because Pakistan has this very well-oiled and well-maintained, you know, machine,
34:54wherein they will do a small blackmail and get lots of money.
34:59So that may well be one reason.
35:02And second is, why would U.S. not do it?
35:05Here in Pakistan, you know, they have all the nukes, they have all the conventional things.
35:10And U.S. would take it out.
35:12And in my understanding, U.S. will have all the wherewithal in spite of the double game.
35:18And double game Pakistan can play because of its geostrategic location.
35:22And I always say this.
35:23Because in this part of the world, if India was not friendly to U.S., Afghanistan is an unfinished agenda in the north.
35:32Iran is an unfinished agenda in the west.
35:34And then there is the Central Asian Republic.
35:36And then there is the Arabian Sea and the Indian Ocean.
35:39So only country which can give you bases and give you airspace to do anything in this part of the world is Pakistan.
35:46So Pakistan understands this importance of their geostrategic location.
35:51And Pakistan encashes on it every time.
35:54But if you have decided to take out…
35:56It's the Heera Mandi with the nuclear weapon.
35:57That's what you're saying.
35:58A gun for hire, you know, a place for hire with a nuclear weapon.
36:03So it has aces in both its hands, that means.
36:06It has these aces up its sleeve, Sushant Sarin.
36:09Yeah, it has its aces.
36:12And look, to give the devil his due, they play their cards well.
36:15So for example, even when the nuclear Walmart was caught, what was happening at that time?
36:19The Americans were in Afghanistan once again.
36:22They desperately needed the Pakistanis at that point of time.
36:25What did the Pakistanis do?
36:26Had it happened without the entire 9-11 incident playing out and the Pakistanis had been caught out,
36:32do you think the Americans would have let them get away with it?
36:35No way.
36:36But what did the Pakistanis do?
36:38So they begged and borrowed.
36:39They let Abdul Qadir Khan, who could not have been doing it on his own,
36:43they let him out to hand to dry.
36:46What they did was they went and they sucked up to the Americans.
36:49They said, look, we will do whatever you ask us to do to get proper procedures,
36:54proper protocols in place so that our nukes are fail-safe mechanisms are worked out.
37:00And, you know, all kinds of new mechanisms will be brought in, which to some extent they managed to do.
37:06And, you know, they got the Americans off their back.
37:09But the problem is that if you are now going to be able to develop capabilities to hit the American mainland,
37:16then the Americans have a serious problem on their hand.
37:19And, you know, even if it's Donald Trump and with all the craziness which is going on in the United States
37:26and the chaotic way of policy making, even with that, I am not so sure if the Americans will countenance either an Iranian bomb
37:35or Pakistani capabilities to hit American mainland.
37:39So I think it will be a major problem for the West, especially for the Americans, if the Pakistanis were to go ahead,
37:47notwithstanding whatever geographical or geopolitical, you know, space they occupy and whatever services they can render.
37:56Those services can always be brought somewhere else as well.
37:59You know, there's an old saying in Hindi, Chor ki Dadi mein Tinka.
38:02And the panic in Pakistan very clearly is that Tinka in the Chor.
38:07Because Pakistan now is scared that it's done what it's done, it's wrong.
38:12And it knows sooner than later it will be targeted.
38:16Its days are numbered.
38:17And we'll be tracking that story very, very closely.
38:20Dr. Dhillan, Dr. Tara Kartha, Jel Dhillan, Dr. Tara Kartha and Sushant Sareen for joining me here on India Today.
38:25Many thanks.
38:26I spoke to Israel's ambassador to India, Reuven Azhar, earlier today about who won this war.
38:33Did Israel win it? Did Iran win it?
38:35Iran is celebrating. They say we won it.
38:38Israel is celebrating.
38:40You heard Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu saying that they degraded Iran's facilities,
38:47their nuclear facilities and their missile launching capabilities.
38:50What happens next in West Asia?
38:52Let's cut across and listen in to excerpts of that conversation.
38:56And joining me now with the latest is Israel's ambassador to India, Ambassador Reuven Azhar.
39:08Ambassador, welcome on India Today.
39:11Was Israel ambassador able to achieve its war aims before the declaration of ceasefire?
39:18Absolutely.
39:20We have removed two existential threats on the existence of our state.
39:26One was the nuclear weapons program of Iran that was obliterated.
39:33And the second was the ballistic missile program that was also destined.
39:38And by that, we have achieved the goals that we have set in 12 days.
39:43This has been an effort of decades that the Iranians have been putting in order to create the threats.
39:49And they have been removed the situation.
39:54Ambassador, Israel claims it's met its war aims, you say.
39:59So, Iran claims it won the war.
40:01In fact, you must have seen victory celebrations on the streets of Tehran yesterday
40:06where they claim they've defeated not just Israel but also the United States of America.
40:11And there are pictures on the streets of Tehran with Donald Trump on his knees bending before Ayatollah Ali Khamenei.
40:19What do you make of Tehran's celebrations?
40:23Clearly, they're trying to downplay what happened.
40:26And if they think this is the victory, so, if that fits them, that's okay with them.
40:33Okay.
40:36And how would you respond to reports that suggest that Iran was able to remove the stockpile of its enriched uranium
40:42before the US strikes at Fordow, Natanz, and Ishfahan?
40:47And that Israel had to go again and bomb Fordow because the aim wasn't achieved initially?
40:55The aim was achieved, Gaurav. I'll explain why.
40:59Although the Iranians might have, you know, different amounts of stockpiles of enriched uranium,
41:06what Israel has done, it has removed many of the essential parts that are needed to build a nuclear weapon.
41:14We have taken the scientists out, the scientists that were building the weapon.
41:20We have taken out the conversion sites that is needed in order to turn the physical material into the metal that is put on a weapon.
41:31We have bombed dozens of locations in which nuclear activity was taking place, including the headquarters of Iran's nuclear authority,
41:43and the archives of all the knowledge that the Iranians had in the nuclear realm.
41:50So although the Iranians still have many scientists that can enrich uranium,
41:54at this point they do not have the capability to sneak out a nuclear weapon because they cannot build one.
42:02And yet Iran announced, Ambassador, that its nuclear program remains on track.
42:08Now, is there an apprehension that Iran may now speed up the process of making that atom bomb,
42:15and that threat to Israel remains or may have just magnified after this 12-day war?
42:23It is clear, Gaurav, that as long as this regime exists, they will try to continue to exterminate our state.
42:30And I am very pessimistic that we will change their genocidal approach.
42:35However, not only that we have set back their military nuclear program and their ballistic program,
42:41but also we have the means and the penetration needed, both in intelligence,
42:46but also in terms of capabilities, military capabilities,
42:50to remove any additional attempt to sneak out to a nuclear bomb.
42:55And how would you respond to this alleged leaked report from the Pentagon
43:01that indicates that the centrifuge was not damaged and that Iran's program,
43:06which may have been delayed, perhaps a little, but not by several years,
43:11as Israel believes at this point of time.
43:14Do you buy that report of the Pentagon, the leaked report?
43:18Well, first of all, it's not an official report.
43:21It's a leak that is coming from an unidentified source in the Pentagon.
43:28It doesn't necessarily transmit the view of the American defense establishment.
43:35So it's an assessment like anybody else can put out an assessment.
43:39I think it's too early to make assessments.
43:41We ourselves are doing the BDA and trying to assess exactly what we've been able to achieve.
43:49But as I told you before, Gaurav, the fact that all these elements that I mentioned do no longer exist,
43:58the fact that Iran still has enriched uranium or people that can continue working on the nuclear program
44:07doesn't mean that they can build a weapon within months.
44:13Actually, it's quite ironical because people were saying, before we did this attack,
44:20that Iran actually was not massed from a nuclear weapon.
44:25So all of a sudden, after we took action, they are. It's quite ridiculous.
44:30Okay. And you must have also heard U.S. President Donald Trump.
44:34He lost his school just as he was on his way to his helicopter
44:39when he said he wasn't aware of what, you know, Israel was doing and what Iran were doing.
44:45Now, there are reports in Washington, D.C. that Israel wanted to continue targeting Iranian forces,
44:52but U.S. forced a ceasefire. Is that a correct reading of the situation?
44:58Did Israel want to continue degrading Iran's military and nuclear capabilities?
45:03And was Israel forced to accept a ceasefire?
45:07No, quite the contrary, Dara. The Iranian regime has reached a ceasefire one hour after it entered into force.
45:17That's why Israel decided to retaliate.
45:20At that point, because President Trump has invested interest in the success of the ceasefire,
45:26he convinced Prime Minister Netanyahu to actually get a retaliation that is milder.
45:34I think, naturally, he was concerned that the ceasefire that we had brokered with our agreement as well was about to collapse.
45:42And therefore, he replied the way he replied.
45:45But thankfully, the ceasefire now seems stable.
45:51And is there any guarantor of the ceasefire?
45:54Or what are the conditions that ceasefire stays in place?
45:57And will Iran and Israel directly come into dialogue?
46:00Or will it be through interlocutors?
46:03Could it be United States, Qatar or any other interlocutors, sir?
46:08Well, as you know, Gaurav, the Iranian Islamic radical regime has refused to engage directly with Israel
46:14because they do not recognize our existence or our right to exist.
46:18and has sworn to destroy us.
46:20So, the diplomatic engagement is happening through other parties.
46:25It doesn't mean that there cannot be a diplomatic outcome.
46:29We certainly hope, and actually it's part of our war goals,
46:34to get into a situation in which Iran verifiably commits to get rid of their military nuclear program
46:42and their military ballistic program.
46:46So, you're still keeping an eye on whatever is happening in Iran
46:49and should they continue with either the ballistic missile program
46:53or renew it or the nuclear program?
46:55Are you saying that Israel will once again go in and pound Iran?
47:01Is that what will happen?
47:03Every time that we will identify an imminent existential threat on our country,
47:10believe me, Gaurav, we will not hesitate.
47:13We will take action.
47:15There was also this report that seemed to indicate
47:18that this meeting that was taking place in Istanbul,
47:21several Islamic countries were apprehensive that while right now Iran is the target,
47:27the only Islamic country with a nuclear bomb is actually Pakistan
47:31and the West will then go after Pakistan.
47:35What is your reading of that situation, sir?
47:38I don't see any significant movement in that direction.
47:45But is the Pakistani nuclear bomb a threat to the world?
47:50If a potential Iranian bomb is a threat to Israel, is a Pakistani nuclear bomb a threat?
47:57Any government that will call for our destruction and will act, take steps in order to promote that idea,
48:08will become naturally a threat to Israel.
48:12The Narendra Modi government calls it the Samvidhan Hathya Divas or Death of Democracy Day 50 years ago.
48:29Indira Gandhi, then Prime Minister of India, had declared a state of emergency.
48:34For 21 months, starting the 25th of June 1975, civil liberties were suspended.
48:40There was censorship in the media, mass arrests, forced sterilization and the judiciary, their independence was completely undermined.
48:47Today, the Narendra Modi government, in a cabinet meeting, passed a resolution condemning that emergency.
48:54Prime Minister Narendra Modi says no one should forget how the spirit of the constitution was violated by the Congress government.
49:02The Congress on the other hand says there has been a state of undeclared emergency in our country for the past 11 years.
49:10We get you more in this report.
49:20Fifty years later, the ghosts of emergency still haunt Indian politics.
49:26The Union Cabinet on Wednesday adopted a resolution condemning the emergency
49:31and observed a two-minute silence in memory of the emergency victims.
49:36The Union Cabinet reaffirmed that the people of India continue to repose unflinching faith in the Indian Constitution
49:46and the resilience of the country's democratic ethos.
49:53As India marked 50th anniversary of emergency, proclamation by Indira Gandhi,
49:59the BJP observed the day as Samvidhan Hathya Divas.
50:03Prime Minister Narendra Modi led the attack, launching a blistering attack on the Congress, setting the tone for his party colleagues.
50:1225 June 1975, the last night of 1975, the Prime Minister Narendra Gandhi,
50:19the Prime Minister Narendra Gandhi made the attack of Antrik Ashanti,
50:22and made the attack on the government of India.
50:27And the support of the country.
50:30After 50 years, Congress was still with the authority of the government.
50:35This is the 50th year, this is the 50th year when the government of indira gandhi ji
50:46has put the Congress party in the country.
50:50It is not necessary to forget it.
50:55It is necessary to take care of it.
50:58Today, the government of indira gandhi ji has put it in mind,
51:03and has put it in the state of indira gandhi ji.
51:14Home Minister Amit Shah, calling emergency the darkest chapter in India's history,
51:19flagged off the BJP's democracy yatra.
51:22Hello.
51:23Here 54 is a
51:43The emergency diaries and account of Prime Minister Modi's experiences during the emergency
51:58was also unveiled.
52:01The Congress hit back at the BJP, accusing them of attempts to rewrite the Constitution.
52:13During the emergency, over 1 lakh people were detained by an authoritarian government,
52:36which misused internal security for its own political agenda,
52:41and jailed opposition leaders and voices of dissent.
52:45Thousands were forced police terrorized, the press censored, and slums demolished.
52:54Very thoughtfully, the government of the day decided that this day will be celebrated as Svidan Hathya Divas.
53:06The celebration will be that those guilty, those who allowed such kind of transgression of humanity's rights,
53:18is written a sense of the Constitution.
53:20The emergency, a blot on Indian democracy, still casts a cloud on the Congress.
53:29Even after 50 years, the BJP uses it to corner the Grand Old Party,
53:34which accuses the Modi government of misusing institutions to suppress opposition.
53:40There are lessons to be learned from the dark period of emergency that lasted 21 months.
53:46But have we?
53:48Bureau Report, India Today.
53:54Well, that is all I have for you on India First this evening.
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