South Africa's controversial new expropriation law has reignited fierce debate over historic land dispossession, property rights and economic stability. Can young South Africans find a way forward on one of the country's most explosive issues?
00:00South Africa has a new law which basically gives the government the framework on how they can
00:10acquire private property from individuals, sometimes with no compensation. What does it
00:15mean for South Africans, particularly young ones? So I want to start with some farmers.
00:20And Guguletu, we are on your farm right now. How did you receive the news or what do you
00:24take of this new law? There is a lot to discuss when it comes to this law. It's very touching
00:29for a lot of the youth because one, it opens a lot of opportunities and a lot of doors
00:35for a lot of us. But at the same time, there is a lot in terms of agriculture on how it really does
00:42affect because the minority in our country, obviously being the white people, are feeding us
00:49on a day-to-day basis. So let me speak to Tevi here because you are the white farmer that is
00:53being discussed here, right? So for you, how do you take it? Because the government is trying
00:59to sell this as a kind of land reform act. And we'll get to the details shortly. But what's your
01:04take? So the main thing to realize is I believe that property rights and the guaranteed property
01:11rights in a country is part of the constitution. And in every country in this world where property
01:18rights has been taken from people, that country has started to become a third world country.
01:25Okay. So coming back to the issue of this expropriation law, I just want to come to you,
01:30Bulelwa. How do you see the law?
01:32I think it's important to first set out what the Expropriation Act is not. The Expropriation Act
01:37has nothing to do with land reform. Now, what this act introduces is that it's a balancing
01:43act between the interests of the public and the interests of the landowner. And what it does,
01:49which I think is what has gotten people kind of in a frenzy, is that it introduces very few
01:56instances where expropriation can happen without compensation.
02:00Martin here is already shaking his head no. I'm curious to know what exactly you're disagreeing
02:04with.
02:05It's not a small list of circumstances in which the government can now seize your property,
02:10confiscate your property without paying you a cent. So if you own fixed property anywhere
02:14in the country, a house, a business, a warehouse, a farm, and the government says, we think in
02:18the public interest, we have to take this without paying you a cent, it is allowed to do that.
02:22Okay. So I want to hear from Una here because your view is actually quite different.
02:26In 1652, when the settler arrived here, from that period up until the period of 1910,
02:33the land of our people has been, was taken away. So they actually expropriated it without compensation.
02:41Let me just bring our global audience into perspective here. The Native Lands Act is what
02:46basically was aligned with apartheid. Black and people of color could not own land.
02:51And so before we go on so deep into history, you've taken us back to the 17th century.
02:56In that case, shouldn't everybody leave the property to the Khoisan who are thought to be
03:01the native occupants of South Africa?
03:03No, actually, Africa and South Africa, it belongs to the Bantu people. It belongs to the Ngunis.
03:09So it belongs to the people of Africa.
03:12What about Tevi here?
03:13We are not saying it doesn't belong here. Now that we are living together here, our perspective
03:17is that the land must go back to the chiefs and the state. We're unapologetic about this.
03:23Land must be expropriated without compensation.
03:27Okay, we'll come to those details later. I just want to get your response real quick.
03:31I believe the biggest problem in South Africa currently is the government.
03:35And if they expropriate the land in a blanket way, every portion of land, every actor of land.
03:42Do you know how many actors of land currently the government own in South Africa?
03:46Laying bare and wasted. That was bought from white farmers.
03:49If the ANC was in any way serious about giving black people land, I have no problem.
03:56They should give black people land. They should get black people to farm on that land.
04:00And there's a lot of Boputatswana, for instance, 4 million actors that's laying bare.
04:05If they were really serious about empowering black farmers, they would have given them that farm.
04:11They would have given them title deeds.
04:12But if there is today a blanket expropriation happening, they will still not give you the land.
04:19Okay, Makoni, I want to hear your perspective a little bit because you are also of the opinion that this is not at all about land reform.
04:25So if it's not, what will be?
04:27No, I absolutely agree with Bulelo and Martin that this is not about land reformed.
04:31I think that is the issue with the land reform system as it currently stands is it's deeply cynical about providing black people with land.
04:41The government doesn't trust black people with land in this country.
04:44And that's evidenced by the millions of title deeds that are held in backlogs by the state.
04:50That is what I'm speaking about when I say there is a cynical distrust of giving black people access to land.
04:55There is a point of contention.
04:56Just before we continue, let me see by show of hands, do you agree with what Makoni is saying?
05:02Do you believe if you believe that the government trusts black people with land?
05:05Raise your hand.
05:07Not a single person.
05:09So let me just ask you a point.
05:11My question.
05:12Do you think that the land rights in this country are equitable across the board?
05:16So if you were to wake up tomorrow as a black man, would you be comfortable with the way the laws are?
05:20You can't trust the ANC government whenever they tell you, I promise you, we will not come and take your land one day.
05:28They have proven beyond the shadow of doubt over the years, they can't be trusted.
05:34All right.
05:34Let me come back to Una here.
05:36So is it a governance issue or is it a land issue?
05:38It's both a government issue and a systematic issue.
05:42There are monopolies out there.
05:44It's not easy to enter into the markets.
05:46You might be given the land and you don't have resources, one.
05:51Or if you are lucky to have resources, you won't be able to get the market out there because there are monopolies which are gatekeeping the market for certain people.
06:02And those monopolies...
06:02Tevi is nodding.
06:04You agree?
06:04I'm agreeing.
06:05Okay.
06:05But it's not just for black against black people.
06:08It's also for small scale white farmers.
06:11The big guys are trying to keep the small guys out.
06:14No, that's incorrect.
06:16Racism is something that we must not sugarcoat.
06:19We must agree that racism continues to exist in the property sector as a whole.
06:24Whether it's in farming, whether it's in estate agent, whether it's in mining, everywhere.
06:30All right.
06:30But Kukuletu here is not working for a white person.
06:33You're working for yourself.
06:34So as a young born free who's trying to empower yourself in this sector, do these realities, are they real for you?
06:45Is this what you're going through?
06:46I guess 100%.
06:49I think I always tell my mom that it is so unfair how the amount of work that I believe that we put in here at the farm is never going to match what is out there.
07:03And I think it can be very discouraging knowing how this is something that is not very open to everyone.
07:12And a lot of us are not very exposed to what is out there.
07:16Our knowledge on agriculture as the youth is very, very limited.
07:19Because I think we've addressed the challenges really well, I'd like to hear some solutions, right?
07:23Because I think we can all agree that there's a serious land distribution problem in this country.
07:27How do we have access to the land?
07:30How do we make it productive and still feel like we're privately owning it?
07:35Some solutions, please.
07:36Anyone?
07:37Yeah.
07:37In 1980, there was 127,000 white farmers in South Africa that was farming the land.
07:44Today, there's 27,500 left.
07:46And that number is falling.
07:48Now, the reason of that wasn't because of the government or expropriation or anything.
07:53It was because of the farming industry being so difficult.
07:57It is extremely difficult.
07:59I have to tell you, a lot of farmers are just going bankrupt.
08:02And if a white commercial farmer that has a history, that has all the knowledge, goes bankrupt,
08:07what chance do a young black farmer that has just received land have to make it a success?
08:14So, we need to ask, for the very same reason that white farmers go bankrupt, young black farmers or black farmers don't succeed.
08:21It's the same thing.
08:22It's for the same reason.
08:23So, we need to ask yourself, why is that?
08:25All right.
08:26So, the government is the third biggest owner of land in this country.
08:30About 24% more is held in trust.
08:32Some of that are tribal trusts.
08:33Tribal trusts are land that's held in trust that are administered by chiefs, which are basically government administrators.
08:40If the government removes that land that it's holding and gives it to people,
08:44then I think there'd be a lot of less pointing at fingers at who's actually holding the land and who's gatekeeping.
08:49If the government did the thing, the right thing of giving that land away.
08:53All right.
08:53Gugu, I'd like to give you a chance to close this debate for us.
08:56If you look at your projection 20 years from now, you're really incredibly young, 21.
09:02What do you want for this country, especially now as a young farmer?
09:05I really want to see myself in a space where I am just as successful as the next person from hard work
09:13and, you know, the dedication that I do have towards the industry.
09:17And I can only hope the same for everybody that we are training here at the farm.
09:21So, we can go back, you know, 20 years down the line and see them also, you know, having their own businesses,
09:26their own agricultural businesses, doing something, you know, acquiring land as well and being given equal opportunities.
09:33Well, thank you so much.
09:34I think that's a brilliant space to end this conversation.
09:36It was really about expropriation.
09:38Will that resolve the land problem here in the country?
09:41I think everybody here says absolutely not, but it's definitely a good place to start the conversation.
