Marie Glusenkamp Perez Asks Russell Vought About How Procedural Burdens On Civil Servants Impacts Effectiveness

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During a House Appropriations Committee hearing last week, Rep. Marie Glusenkamp Perez (D-WA) questioned OMB Director Russell Vought about procedural burdens on civil servants.

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00:00Lusenkamp-Perez for five minutes.

00:01Thank you, Chair.

00:02Thank you, Director, for being here.

00:07I used to run my husband's own auto repair and machine shop.

00:10I will never forget having an OSHA inspector come to my shop

00:13and ask me if my AC machine was a welder.

00:17The divorce of theory from practice,

00:20respect for people who have done the work,

00:22and who has the authority and the knowledge.

00:25My question to you is,

00:29how are you adapting your staffing decisions

00:33to ensure that it is not just a Sterling resume

00:36who is in your office,

00:39but people who have done the work,

00:40respect for the trades?

00:42How many people do you have in your office

00:44who don't have a college degree?

00:45I don't know the answer to that question.

00:46I come from a family of electricians,

00:49so that is my background.

00:53I've been very enthusiastic.

00:55and excited about the policy proposals

00:57we had in the first term

00:58that I'm sure are working themselves

01:00through this one as well

01:01to ensure that we're not expecting people

01:05to have college degrees

01:06and Sterling resumes that might show itself.

01:10But if someone can do the job,

01:12we want them at OMB as it pertains to our agency.

01:14One kind of theoretical question I have here

01:17is that, you know,

01:18I think Wendell Berry said

01:19that excellent workmanship

01:21as with a breaking plow is destructive.

01:23Efficiency itself,

01:25it's not useful.

01:27It is efficiency towards what?

01:29It's about effectiveness.

01:31It's about a question of like,

01:32what are we trying to do here?

01:33What is the purpose of this bill?

01:34And my question to you is like,

01:40all of this claims of pursuing efficiency,

01:44but the question is effectiveness.

01:46Like that is the true goal.

01:47How are you implementing

01:48what my community needs in these systems?

01:52And a lot of that, in my view,

01:54comes down to the question

01:55of procedural burden on civil servants.

01:57So, if you're successful in your pursuits,

02:01we will soon have a much smaller field of civil servants.

02:05Who is going to reduce the procedural burden

02:08on those civil servants to pursue effectiveness?

02:11Well, I think, you know,

02:12government efficiency is not meant

02:15to sum the totality of what you want

02:17from a federal government.

02:18I think it's meant to articulate an imbalance

02:21that we've seen in recent years

02:23and to correct for that imbalance.

02:25And so, that's the partnership

02:27with whatever department or agency you're dealing with,

02:30is they have been given responsibilities by Congress

02:33to go and perform functions

02:36on behalf of the American people.

02:38And the Department of Government Efficiency,

02:40and to OMB to a large extent historically,

02:43is designed to make sure the work that they do

02:47is done in the best way possible.

02:50But I'm honestly, Congresswoman,

02:53I'm one of these people that encourages OMB

02:56not to ask the efficiency question first and foremost,

02:59but to ask both in serving the president

03:02or the laws that you all have given us,

03:05what is trying to be accomplished by this?

03:07And let's make sure we accomplish it.

03:09And then you've earned the right

03:11to figure out how to do it most efficiently.

03:14Yeah.

03:14My concern is that right now,

03:16it's a process of randomly scapegoating civil servants

03:18and not a pursuit of...

03:20Many of those people are exactly the people

03:22who could tell you what kind of bullshit paperwork

03:24they're putting up with.

03:26And so how to have not just a managerial class

03:29tell you what is appropriate,

03:31but actually the people who are doing the work

03:32who should be part of that process

03:34of pointing out what the unproductive,

03:38you know, proceduralism is.

03:41I agree with you.

03:44I want to know what career staff thinks.

03:47It's a hallmark of my time at OMB.

03:51And I hate the paperwork that we often put on agencies

03:54to perform and do things that are not designed

03:58to actually lead to better outcomes.

04:01And so we have a deregulatory side

04:04for the agencies doing the work

04:06as it comes to GIPRA

04:07and other things on the management side.

04:09So I know you're a Christian.

04:11You might know the verse in Isaiah chapter 5, verse 8.

04:14It says,

04:14Woe to those who add farm to farm

04:17and house to house

04:18till they are the sole inhabitants of the land.

04:21This is, I think,

04:22I hope a sentiment that we share,

04:24but the presidential budget calls

04:25for a 10% reduction

04:27in the Federal Trade Commission's competition budget

04:28and a static budget

04:30for the Department of Justice Antitrust Division

04:32and reduction in the size of the workforce.

04:34So how will reducing the budget

04:35and staff of the antitrust agencies

04:37bring down the cost of living

04:39and ensure that small businesses like mine

04:41can compete on a fair level playing field

04:43without a regulatory mode

04:46or antitrust forces holding us down?

04:50Look, we think it's a priority.

04:51We have given the Department of Justice

04:54and the FTC the resources that they've asked for.

04:57And we don't necessarily value everything

05:00by the dollar amount that is given,

05:02but we do think it's important

05:03and it's something that our leadership there

05:07will continue to pursue.

05:09You'll be back.

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