- 6/10/2025
#CinemaJourney
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00:00The thing that keeps me on track mostly is just my immediate family and their
00:08happiness and also not pissing off my wife. Happy anniversary. I owe a lot of my
00:17success to my parents. My mother to this day says that I used to really turn it
00:22on for my father and but when he left the room I was a little shit. That's what I do for a living now.
00:32I'm a big professional shit. Award-winning comedian Tom Gleeson has been a fixture on
00:39Australia's comedy scene since the 1990s. You know when people say oh yeah last night I slept
00:44like a baby yeah it was great. What does it mean you slept for an hour woke up drank milk did a shit
00:49woman and tried it. His sharp and dry wit sold out theatres across the country and propelled him to
00:56TV stardom. These days he's most recognised as the host of Hard Quiz and Taskmaster. These contestants
01:05have already had a go and mucked it up. I really enjoy shocking people and I don't mind being shocked.
01:10Your grandparents were cousins. Correct. Most people probably not mention that. I think I might get
01:16my humour from my mother. I used to always say I got it from my father. Looking back on her she's
01:23actually very funny. Very cutting, very sarcastic, very dry. So I'm doing this show for my mother
01:31because I feel like I know a fair bit about the Gleesons but not as much about the Goodwins which
01:37is my mother's side of the family. My brother Phil has been looking into the family history and I think
01:47he discovered that our family history isn't quite as tidy as we thought it was.
01:58And I'm really interested in the difference between stories I was told and the actual facts.
02:06I don't feel the responsibility of what my forebears have done.
02:14But I mean it would be better if they were nice people, wouldn't it?
02:19In search of myths and legends.
02:21Oh dear, this is not great. Now I'm moving into true crime territory.
02:26Tom discovers a hardened criminal past.
02:29His wife's rooting around and he killed two people. He was a good looking murderer.
02:33Feuds on the goldfields.
02:36Wow, it's like something from good, the bad and the ugly.
02:39And rewrites a family legend.
02:42Okay, I'm hoping I'm adopted at this point. You've brought great shame upon me.
02:46I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm hoping I'm
03:16I grew up on a farm near Tamba Springs, which is near Gunnedah in New South Wales.
03:43Born in 1974 to James Thomas Gleeson and Annette Patricia Goodwin, Tom is the second youngest
03:50of their five children.
03:58I love growing up on a farm.
04:01I didn't understand how you could grow up anywhere else.
04:06When I was about 15, the bank took over our farm and we lost the farm.
04:15I was already at boarding school when the HSC was the most important thing in the world
04:20at that time for me.
04:21And obviously the school fees couldn't be paid anymore.
04:23So the school made up a pretend scholarship for me so that I could still go there.
04:29I was very, very focused on doing well at school because I knew how much trouble people
04:34were going to keep me there.
04:37It was just hard to see my parents go back to zero.
04:40It's like they had their life up to that point and then they had a second life where they
04:44had to start all over again.
04:45And the way they did that, I find so impressive.
04:53Tom was always close to his father, James, who passed away in 2018.
04:57I would say I'm close with my mother now as an adult.
05:03I don't think I appreciated her as much when I was a child.
05:08My mother didn't talk as much about her family and she thought that her past was quite boring.
05:18A lot of my treated Irish Catholic and we were always taught that there was the potato famine
05:24in Ireland.
05:25So that's the reason they all came out to Australia and there were no convicts at all.
05:31But I think that that's not the case.
05:35So I am curious about getting back through the layers beyond my grandparents, because
05:41I also think that we're not as Irish as I think we are.
05:45I'm pretty sure my pop, Arthur Goodwin, his mother I think might have been German.
05:52That's what I always thought.
05:53But I think it's got to be more complicated than that.
05:57To investigate the ancestry of his maternal grandfather, Arthur Goodwin, or Poppy, Tom
06:03and his older brother Phil have taken DNA tests.
06:08Tom's heading over to Phil's house in Sydney's Blue Mountains to review the results.
06:12Hello?
06:13Can you just pull out the laptop?
06:18OK, so what you see is these are the regions that you've got ancestry from.
06:23So we've got Ireland at the top, 58%.
06:25Yes.
06:26It is your dominant component in your genetics.
06:29Thanks Dad.
06:30What about pop's side of the family, Arthur?
06:33Then we've got England and North Western Europe, 22%.
06:37I didn't realise there was English ancestry.
06:41And 5% Germanic Europe.
06:42OK.
06:43So if you cast your eye back to this family tree, what you see on Poppy's side, if we go
06:49all the way back to your fourth great grandfather, Thomas Carpenter, he was born in England.
06:56Following the line of his maternal grandfather, Arthur Goodwin, Tom's four times great grandfather,
07:02Thomas Carpenter, was born in Surrey, England in 1784.
07:08He got in trouble for stealing a watch and he was convicted and sentenced to death.
07:16But they commuted the sentence to life.
07:20He was put in a hulk in Portsmouth Harbour for 10 months before he was sent out to Australia.
07:27So finally a convict.
07:28Yes, a convict.
07:29Yeah.
07:30He was just a convict, an English convict.
07:32I thought I was Irish, so I'm totally mongrel.
07:35It's a good name for a pub.
07:38The total mongrel.
07:39Yeah.
07:40I mean, that's what mum would say, yeah.
07:41Yeah.
07:42Yeah, so Thomas Carpenter sailed into Sydney Harbour on the Admiral Gambier, but he didn't
07:46hang around long and should probably head up the road to Mount York.
07:51OK, just up the road.
07:53That's handy.
07:54Finally found a convict.
08:00He got sentenced to death for stealing a watch.
08:03Seems a bit extreme.
08:05He cheated death and got to become an Australian instead.
08:11Sounds like a good piece of luck, really, a good piece of fortune.
08:22To find out how his four times great-grandfather served out his sentence in Australia...
08:27Hello.
08:28Hi, Tom.
08:29Hi.
08:30I'm Kate.
08:31Tom's brother, Phil, has asked historian Kate O'Neill to help Tom navigate local convict
08:36records.
08:38You're four times great-grandfather, Thomas Carpenter.
08:41You might want to have a look at the man himself first.
08:43OK.
08:44So let's have a look at this.
08:45You can just...
08:46Let's hope it doesn't blow away.
08:47Yep.
08:48On this windy day.
08:49Oh.
08:50All right.
08:52So this is the convict register.
08:55Thomas, Thomas, Carpenter Thomas.
08:58Yes.
08:59So he was on the Admiral Gambier, 1809 trade.
09:05He's a labourer.
09:06Oh, here we get a sense of what he looked like.
09:09He was five feet, eight and a quarter inches.
09:12Fair.
09:13Well, I'm fair, so it makes sense.
09:15Hair is light brown, hazel eyes, and...
09:19Hang on.
09:20Hang on, it's got a little note that says he's good looking.
09:24That's unusual for our description, so he must have been quite good looking to stand
09:29out.
09:30Wow.
09:31Good looking.
09:32Maybe best of a bad lot.
09:33Yes.
09:34Yes.
09:35Indeed.
09:36So he came here in 1809, and then he was employed to build a road here in the Blue Mountains.
09:44He was part of a team that was chosen by William Cox, who was given the task by Governor Macquarie
09:50of creating a road across to the west.
09:54In July 1814, respected English military officer William Cox supervised construction of the
10:01first European road built through the Blue Mountains.
10:07William Cox's four-time great-grandfather, Thomas, joined a crew of 30 men as they built 163 kilometres
10:14of road through the rugged mountain ranges to Bathurst.
10:17It only took them six months to get six months.
10:21Six months to build a road over the Blue Mountains.
10:24It's impressive.
10:25I mean, there are potholes near my house that the council haven't fixed in five years.
10:29And that was the amazing thing about it.
10:31And also, it wasn't done through punishment.
10:35It wasn't a chain gang.
10:37It wasn't a group of people who were in shackles or chains anymore.
10:41William Cox treated his labourers very well.
10:44The incentive was they would be granted their freedom at the end of it.
10:49So, when it was completed in 1815, your four-time great-grandfather, Thomas Carpenter, was granted
10:56a pardon and so he was a free man.
10:58So, good-looking Thomas now has his freedom.
11:01What does he do with it?
11:02Well, he meets a lovely lady by the name of Catherine Shaw.
11:05And they must have headed off because a year later in 1818, they were married.
11:09Oh, so Catherine Shaw is my four-time great-grandmother.
11:12Your four-time great-grandmother.
11:13And over the next 10 years, he has four children.
11:16Okay.
11:17So, do they live happily ever after?
11:19So, it all seems pretty good for them.
11:22But, the next record we have of him is from 1828.
11:28Okay.
11:29All right.
11:30So, this is the Sydney Gazette, Monday, February the 4th, 1828.
11:34Police report.
11:35Oh, no.
11:36Here we go.
11:37Windsor.
11:38Thomas Carpenter against James Turner.
11:42The complainant stated on his oath that improper familiarities, okay,
11:49has been given and taken by his wife and the defendant, James Turner.
11:54All right.
11:55So, he's found his wife in bed with James Turner.
12:01Sounds like it.
12:02As it says, improper.
12:03Yeah.
12:04Improper familiarities.
12:06Yeah.
12:07He did not like this Turner.
12:09Oh, no shit.
12:10He now complained more particularly of an assault committed by a defendant.
12:16He having given him a thump on the mouth.
12:19The defendant said he was assaulted first.
12:22Assaulted.
12:23Assaulted first.
12:24Yeah.
12:25But the complainant from the marks of violence certainly appeared in the worst pickle.
12:29There's no other record of what the outcome of this unfortunately was.
12:32So, you don't know if he spent time in prison or was fined or something.
12:36Poor Thomas.
12:38Poor Thomas.
12:39Stole a watch.
12:41Found a wife.
12:42Lost a wife.
12:43Oh, dear.
12:44And then...
12:45Yes.
12:46Oh, no.
12:47The next record we have...
12:50Okay.
12:51Sydney Gazette.
12:52Thursday, March 19, 1829.
12:56Notice.
12:57Whereas one Thomas Carpenter of the Currajong has been committed on the coroner's warrant charged
13:05with the willful murder of Joseph Copson and Charles Paul.
13:17So, he's...
13:22So, Thomas is a murderer.
13:24My four times great-grandfather is a murderer.
13:27Well, according to the charges...
13:30Oh, Thomas.
13:31I thought he stole a watch.
13:33He did.
13:34But he seems so innocent.
13:35He was a hard worker.
13:36Now his wife's rooting around and he killed two people.
13:40I don't know.
13:41He seemed like such a simple lad.
13:42Now he seems complicated.
13:43He was a good-looking simple lad.
13:45He was a good-looking murderer.
13:46Oh, no.
13:47I've got so many questions.
13:48Was he found guilty?
13:49Did he do it?
13:50Were there more people?
13:51Well, for that you'd have to go to the scene of the crime.
14:05My four times great-grandfather, Thomas Carpenter, I was excited about him being a convict,
14:11but I was wanting him just to be one of those, you know, quiet bread-stealing ones.
14:15So, it still feels a bit strange knowing that I share DNA with a murderer.
14:22I thought he was a man of virtue and a hard worker and now I'm moving into true crime territory.
14:28Excited by his ancestral connection to the good-looking murderer, Thomas Carpenter,
14:35Thomas Carpenter, Tom's heading to the western Sydney suburb of Glosodia, the scene of his four times great-grandfather's crimes.
14:46The question on Tom's mind, is Thomas really guilty of murdering two men?
14:54He's hoping historian Mark Dunn has cracked the case.
14:58I just want to show you this.
15:00Okay.
15:01So, it's the Sydney Gazette.
15:02Saturday, March 21, 1829.
15:05Coroner's inquests.
15:06An inquest was held on Saturday the 14th on the bodies of Joseph Copson and also Charles Paul,
15:13whose verdict was that Joseph Copson on Thursday the 12th day of March at a creek called Sally Bottom Creek.
15:20That's where we are now.
15:21Which is where we are now.
15:23Was fired at by Thomas Carpenter, which wounded the said John Copson by passing through head and brain,
15:32so that the said Joseph Copson instantly died.
15:35Wow.
15:37I am descended from a man who shot someone in the head.
15:40It would appear.
15:42Yeah.
15:43At Perkins Farm, Thomas Carpenter wounded the head and brain of the said Charles Paul,
15:51whereof he instantly died.
15:53By each of which acts, the said Thomas Carpenter is guilty of willful murder.
16:04I mean, I'm trying to find the positive in it.
16:07He's a good shot.
16:09He's been found guilty.
16:11Well, that is the coroner's opinion and then it will go to trial.
16:15Okay.
16:16But I'll just show you this as well to put it all in a little bit of context.
16:19Okay.
16:20So this is a parish map of a place called the Parish of Currency, which is where we are.
16:24So in the report it says that Charles Paul was shot at on Perkins Farm.
16:30Yeah.
16:31Which is this one here on lot 45 says Samuel Perkins.
16:34So that's where one of them being shot.
16:35Yeah.
16:36And then the one next door, lot 46, is actually where your four times great grandfather Thomas Carpenter was living.
16:42Right.
16:43But you might notice here that his name is not on the ownership.
16:46Oh yeah.
16:47And it says, oh, lot 46 is owned by James Turner.
16:55The same James Turner that ran off with Thomas's wife, Catherine?
16:58Yes.
16:59Yes.
17:00The same James Turner.
17:01That dirty bugger.
17:02Yes.
17:03So hang on.
17:04So, but he's living on that land.
17:07So does that mean that James Turner was his landlord?
17:10Yes.
17:11And so his wife slept with his landlord?
17:14Correct.
17:15And then he got so angry he shot his neighbour.
17:18Well.
17:19Sorry.
17:20I'm trying to put it together like a bad true crime podcast.
17:22Not quite.
17:23Not quite.
17:24It is a complicated story though.
17:25Okay.
17:26So what happens is, Thomas is living out here with two of his children.
17:29James and Catherine have moved on, taken half the family as well.
17:33In March 1829, Thomas Carpenter is at home and he hears the dogs barking.
17:38He comes out, thinks he sees someone in the distance.
17:41But before he can investigate any further, there's a gunshot and a bullet goes through
17:46the hat and blows the hat off the top of his head.
17:49Wow.
17:50It's like something from good, the bad and the ugly.
17:53A little.
17:54Yeah.
17:55Yeah.
17:56The following morning, a neighbour arrives and says they've been robbed.
18:00There are bushrangers on the loose.
18:05And so Thomas goes and survey the farm and see if anyone's still around.
18:11And after some hours, he comes across a small camp and sees two men sitting in the distance.
18:20He thinks these might be the culprits, so he calls out to them.
18:25They jump up and do the runner.
18:28So he chases one of the bushrangers, which turns out to be Charles Paul.
18:35Paul turns and takes a shot at your four times great grandfather Thomas, which misses.
18:41But Thomas takes a shot before Paul gets the chance to shoot again.
18:46And sure enough, it hits him and he's killed.
18:49And then continues on the hunt, follows the track up through the back here, heading towards
18:56sort of the base of the Blue Mountains.
18:58Right.
18:59He finally comes across and sees a man in the distance.
19:03So Thomas takes another shot and he hits the other bushranger, which is Copson.
19:08And he's killed.
19:09Then, the interesting thing is, he goes and actually turns himself in.
19:16So it sounds like self defence, because he turned himself in.
19:19Yeah, but you do have two bodies that have both been shot in the head.
19:23So the coroner then says he's guilty, he should go to trial.
19:27Right.
19:28So it goes to trial and then it gets slightly murkier.
19:33Turns out Copson had been offered a bribe of 20 pounds by James Turner to knock off your
19:40four times great grandfather.
19:42He put a hit on him.
19:44Okay.
19:45The plot thickens.
19:47Yes.
19:48So...
19:49I always knew James Turner was a grub.
19:52So that's interesting, because we know James Turner has run away with Thomas Carpenter's
19:57wife, Catherine, and obviously wants my four times great grandfather Thomas out of the
20:02picture.
20:03That is what it seems like.
20:05And so once this all comes out, essentially what the judge says to the jury, if with all
20:09this evidence in front of you, if you think that he has acted in a role of self defence,
20:14because he has been attacked in his own home, then you have to find him innocent.
20:19So the jury agrees that in fact he has acted in self defence, so he's found innocent.
20:23So my four times great grandfather chased down two bushrangers and shot them in the head.
20:29Yeah.
20:30Got away with it.
20:31Got away with it.
20:33Charges dismissed.
20:34I mean, what a life.
20:35Two years after all this, after the drama of the trial, he dies when he's 46 and he's
20:40buried in Windsor and that's the end of his story here as well.
20:43Quite an action packed life though.
20:44He did.
20:45But I feel like there's a loose end.
20:46I want to know what happened to Katherine Shaw, Thomas's wife, who ran off with that dog
20:52James Turner.
20:53Nine months after this trial date, she turns up in the records again and she's living and
21:01having a child with another man called John Medhurst.
21:05But they have moved away from this area.
21:08To find out more about her, you're going to have to go north, about 140 k's up to Buckety.
21:13Or you'll find her up there.
21:17I thought my family tree was boring, to be honest.
21:22But my family history is turning into a colonial version of Days of Our Lives.
21:31We've got James Turner taking on a hit on my four times great grandfather, Thomas.
21:37You dirty bastard.
21:44Then Katherine has also left James Turner.
21:50So what on earth has happened to her?
21:55Unravelling his ancestral soap opera, Tom will discover yet more infidelity and a crime
22:02that threatens to ruin Katherine's life.
22:07Comedian Tom Gleeson has traced his four times great grandmother, Katherine, to Buckety.
22:20On the traditional lands of the Dhakunjung people.
22:28Colonial expansion on their lands was driven by the construction of the Great North Road.
22:33Built in the 1800s, the road connected Sydney to the growing Hunter Valley.
22:42In the remnants of the remaining road.
22:44Hey Tom, over here.
22:46Oh, g'day.
22:47What are you doing down in that ditch?
22:49Tom's meeting historian Dr Meg Foster to ask her about Katherine's new partner, John Medhurst.
22:55John Medhurst.
22:56What do you know about John Medhurst?
22:58Nothing.
23:00Okay.
23:02Alright.
23:03So, John Medhurst.
23:05Yeah.
23:06He came over as a free settler in about 1825.
23:08So he's not a convict.
23:10So maybe Katherine is moving away from the bad boys.
23:14It could be an upgrade.
23:15Yeah.
23:16So in 1830, he and Katherine have their first child, Elizabeth.
23:21The following year, they actually get land in Wollongby.
23:25But a few months later, things take a bit of a turn for the worse.
23:29So I'm just going to give you this to read.
23:32It's a witness statement from their 1831 quarter sessions.
23:35Okay.
23:36Excerpt from witness statement of John Lanark.
23:40On the 27th of June last, I was at W Simpson's house at Maitland.
23:45And I gave a bundle of fruit trees to John Medhurst, belonging to Mr White at Patrick Plains.
23:52Which trees John Medhurst promised to deliver at Mr White's house.
23:56On being informed of the state in which the trees were delivered at Mr White's,
24:00I went and counted them and found there were 38 missing.
24:06John Medhurst is a bloody tree thief.
24:08He is indeed.
24:09So she's gone from a watch thief to a tree thief.
24:15This morning, the 13th of July, the woman, Mrs Carpenter, came to me and begged me to overlook what had happened.
24:22This was the first offence he had committed.
24:25Yeah, right.
24:26And that if anything happened to Medhurst, she did not know how she should support her family.
24:34She sounds a bit desperate.
24:36Yeah, you would be.
24:37She really didn't have a lot of ways to support herself apart from through a man like Medhurst.
24:42But despite her pleas, John Medhurst is actually convicted and he has to serve 18 months on the roads in irons.
24:49Unlike Cox's Road over the Blue Mountains, it took iron gangs and convict road parties a decade to finish the 250 kilometer Great North Road.
25:01The iron gangs worked in extreme conditions while shackled in leg irons and sometimes iron collars.
25:08It was a harsh form of punishment designed to deter criminal activity.
25:14It's a really hard and devastating sentence, especially from someone who came over as free to be in chains.
25:19What happens to Catherine?
25:20She's on her own now with children.
25:22So, we do know that in December 1832, John Junior was born.
25:29And I don't know how good you are with maths, Tom, but considering that John Medhurst went away in August 1831 and John Junior was born in December 1832.
25:40So, I'll let you put two and two together there.
25:43That sounds like it was longer than nine months ago.
25:48It was indeed.
25:49Yeah.
25:50Which leads to the question, how could John Junior have been conceived when John Medhurst was somewhere like this, working on the roads and irons?
25:58Well, straight away I'm thinking James Turner was involved.
26:01Right, okay.
26:02But somehow, maybe James Turner's come and visited because he was a dirty dog and he would be happy to travel all this distance to mess up my family tree.
26:10I mean, well, something like that is possible.
26:13Catherine may have looked for another relationship while John Medhurst was on the road.
26:18On the flip side, John could have been released earlier because we don't actually have his discharge papers.
26:23So, we don't know exactly when he was released.
26:26So, we'll never know for sure, unfortunately.
26:28Did they get back together or?
26:30They did, yes.
26:31So, John Medhurst and Catherine, they reconnected in 1833.
26:35They actually married.
26:36They moved to Wallenby to John's parcel of land.
26:39Wallenby.
26:40Is that far away?
26:42Just up the road.
26:50I was feeling sorry for John Medhurst and then I remembered I'm not even related to him.
26:54So, I don't care that he was a numpty who stole an orchard.
26:58But at the same time, I'm worried about my four times great-grandmother, Catherine Carpenter's taste in men.
27:05You know, she probably felt like she moved on to someone a bit better, certainly better than James Turner, who we all know is a dirty dog.
27:13Hopefully, things work out for her.
27:20But I am a bit nervous about her prospects.
27:26Curious to know if his four times great-grandmother, Catherine Carpenter, found her happily ever after with John Medhurst, Tom's making his way to Wallenby.
27:38Wallenby means meeting place of the waters.
27:41And for thousands of years, it's been an important ceremonial site for the Darkanjung, Awabakal and Wanarua peoples.
27:53Beautiful view.
27:54It's beautiful, isn't it?
27:55I'm Christine.
27:56Oh, nice to meet you.
27:57Historian Christine Yates has found evidence of Catherine and John's life here.
28:03And so what happens to Catherine and John?
28:06Well, things were going very well.
28:08They had five children and they were settled here at Wallenby.
28:13John Medhurst received a number of land grants, so they were well established.
28:18John was a pillar of the community.
28:21He supported the establishment of the school, the local school at Laguna.
28:26Okay.
28:27So they weren't concerned about his past tree thefts.
28:33Apparently not.
28:34And then eventually, they moved to Gosford.
28:37They settled there for a number of years.
28:40And we have a lovely photograph of the couple.
28:44Oh my goodness.
28:45Yeah.
28:46Taken when they were older.
28:48Yes.
28:49Wow.
28:50After they had moved to Gosford.
28:51Okay.
28:52So this is Catherine.
28:53Catherine.
28:54My four times great grandmother and John Medhurst.
28:57And John Medhurst.
28:58Who I'm not related to.
28:59But I can tell you, looking at Catherine, it's funny.
29:02She does look a bit like my grandfather.
29:04I can see it a little bit in the face.
29:07Hmm.
29:08Yeah, I can't believe I got to look at her after all this.
29:10I wasn't expecting that.
29:12I mean, photos would have been rather rare at this time.
29:15They would.
29:16They were, yes.
29:17People had to sit very still.
29:18Yes.
29:19For a time.
29:20So often they look a bit expressionist.
29:22Petrally disappointed.
29:23Yeah.
29:24That's probably true.
29:25Not many smiles.
29:26No.
29:27Ah, Catherine.
29:28Yeah.
29:29Sadly, in 1887, John died.
29:33He was 84 years old.
29:35We don't know exactly the circumstances, but we know that he drowned.
29:39That was the cause of death.
29:40Wow.
29:41So, okay.
29:42So then Catherine's on her own again.
29:44She's on her own.
29:45And she didn't have another partner?
29:46No.
29:47Because she seemed to be able to move on rather quickly in the past,
29:49which I have not been judgemental of.
29:51No.
29:52So John Medhurst may have been the love of her life.
29:54He may well have been.
29:55Now, we've discovered a wonderful newspaper article that was published before she died.
30:01So this is the evening news.
30:03Sydney, Thursday, January 8th, 1891.
30:06An old Australian.
30:08Probably the oldest living female native of Sydney is Mrs. Catherine Medhurst.
30:13She, for 30 years, practiced as a midwife.
30:15The old lady has been, as long as she can remember, a total abstainer.
30:20She'd never had a drink, but had multiple partners.
30:24So she has no excuse anyway.
30:26The old lady has the honour of having contributed to the population of this country a great many descendants.
30:34Well, she sure has.
30:35Nine children from two partners and that dirty dog, James Turner, who we weren't focused on.
30:43Yeah, wow.
30:44They did leave a lot out.
30:45Yeah, they did.
30:46They did.
30:47They did, yeah.
30:48I mean, from what we've heard about her, they left all the cool stuff out.
30:52It's a very sanitised version.
30:55Oh yeah, absolutely.
30:56It doesn't say, you know, and her previous husband shot two men in the head.
31:02Wow.
31:03Just left that bit out.
31:04Yeah.
31:05Then only three years later, in 1894, she died.
31:08How old was she?
31:09She was 94.
31:1094.
31:1194, which is extraordinary.
31:13Yeah, for that time it's incredible.
31:15Yeah, it is, yes.
31:16It's a lovely story of a strong woman.
31:18Hopefully I've got her genes and I can live just as long.
31:21I was excited to find out that I had convicts in my past.
31:40Thomas Carpenter beat a murder charge.
31:43He shot two people in the head.
31:45I mean, you'd think that that would be game over.
31:50Well, Thomas Carpenter was a good looking lad.
31:53That was on record, so maybe that helped.
31:57I make no judgements about Catherine's decisions.
32:05I see Catherine as doing the best with what she had.
32:11My four times great grandmother, Catherine's resolve reminds me a bit of my mother.
32:17You know, my mother's very tough.
32:19You know, my mother's a very strong figure in my life.
32:21And I think that maybe she got that from Catherine.
32:26You know, my mother's very strong.
32:27You know, my mother's very strong.
32:28You know, my mother's very strong.
32:29You know, my mother's very strong.
32:30You know, my mother's very strong.
32:31Having discovered the turbulent life and death struggles
32:34of his maternal grandfather's ancestors,
32:37Tom's heading home to Victoria.
32:40There, he'll investigate a myth linking his family to a vicious uprising on the gold fields.
32:49After discovering his convict roots, comedian Tom Gleeson is back home in Victoria,
33:02ready to start his investigation into his maternal grandmother's line.
33:06And a family legend that has piqued his interest.
33:10Hello.
33:11Oh, hello.
33:13Good to see you.
33:15Yeah, give me a cuddle.
33:16To find out more, he's catching up with his mother, Annette,
33:19and again with his brother, Phil, to ask them what they know.
33:23Thanks so much for coming.
33:25All right.
33:26In we go.
33:27Now, Phil, you've done a lot of research into the family,
33:31and I have to confess that often you tell me about it, it's late at night,
33:36and I've usually had a few drinks, so I don't think I remember everything
33:39that you've shown me over the years.
33:40Fair enough.
33:41So a good place to start will be, you might remember this photo.
33:46Oh, yeah, I remember this.
33:47This was on the mantelpiece at Nan and Pops.
33:49Yep.
33:50Yes.
33:51That's my Nan, Rita, Reagan, and that's my great-grandfather,
33:55Lord Claude Hamilton Reagan.
33:56That's correct, yeah.
33:57When he was young and handsome.
33:59He is a good-looking rooster.
34:00Yeah.
34:01And he wasn't even too bad-looking when he was old.
34:03Still had all his hair, unlike my son's.
34:09There was a story passed down by Claude through the family
34:12that the Reagans were actually supposed to be Middens.
34:15Right.
34:16And so we believe that your three-times great-grandfather
34:21was this man, John Midden.
34:23Tom's maternal grandmother was born, Rita Reagan, in 1915.
34:28But tracing her line back, the Reagan name mysteriously disappears
34:33and becomes Midden.
34:35And the family believed Tom's three-times great-grandfather,
34:38John Midden, was responsible for the name change.
34:43Right.
34:44So why would he change his name?
34:46The story that was passed down by Claude was something about
34:49our three-times great-grandfather.
34:51John Midden got into some sort of trouble on the goldfields.
34:54And there's a story about throwing the pigtails of Chinese miners
34:58down mine shafts.
35:00So there's a suggestion there of getting involved
35:02in some anti-Chinese race riots.
35:05What I'd really like to know is can we find the reason
35:08why John Midden changed his name to Reagan?
35:11And is there any connection with the family legend?
35:14OK.
35:15Well, I'll try to learn that, and then late at night
35:18at a family function I'll tell you and maybe you'll forget.
35:21Maybe.
35:27The family's previous inquiries into John Midden's
35:30baffling name change have all hit dead ends.
35:33But Tom has discovered a new lead in country Victoria.
35:37So I'm off to Kilmore, which is about half an hour's drive
35:42from my house.
35:44I wish I had some ancestors who lived in Paris.
35:52But I'm intrigued about why did John Midden become John Reagan?
35:56If this stuff is true, I'm faced with the prospect
36:00that my ancestors are racists.
36:03And I think that it's better to know about it.
36:10In Kilmore, on the traditional lands of the Tungwarung people...
36:13Hi. G'day, Tom.
36:14..Tom's teaming up with historian Andrew May...
36:17Welcome to the Kilmore Historical Society.
36:19..to interrogate new information found in the town's records.
36:24Well, in 1841, your three-times great-grandfather John
36:30and his wife, Elizabeth, settle in Kilmore.
36:34And we find John Midden purchasing some land...
36:38Okay.
36:39..to establish a hotel.
36:40Okay, so he's going to open a pub in Kilmore where we are now.
36:43It's a good place.
36:44Yeah.
36:45With all the mod cons.
36:46It's on this new road from Melbourne to Sydney.
36:48He advertises it in the newspaper.
36:50The only problem is he didn't manage to get a liquor licence.
36:54You can get everything there except a pint of beer.
36:59You've brought great shame upon me
37:02that my three-times great-grandfather opened a pub with no beer.
37:06Yeah, it was for teetotaling travellers.
37:08Okay, I'm hoping I'm adopted at this point.
37:10This is quite frightening that I have anything,
37:13any genetics in common with this man.
37:15He's trying.
37:16He's trying, though.
37:17He's trying.
37:18He's entrepreneurial and that's...
37:19Absolutely.
37:20He's making his own luck.
37:21That appeals to me.
37:22His fortunes do improve.
37:24And in 1845, we read this in the newspaper.
37:28Okay.
37:29So this is the Melbourne Courier, Monday, September 29th, 1845.
37:34John Mitton of the currency lad Kilmore respectfully informs
37:39the settlers, residents and the public generally
37:42that he has obtained a publican's general licence.
37:45He's got booze.
37:47He now has booze.
37:48That's a game-changer when you own a pub.
37:50So my honour has been restored.
37:531845, John and Elizabeth have a young family.
37:57They've got three children.
37:59And in 1846, they welcome their fourth child,
38:03your two-times great-grandfather, George.
38:06But then it seems John gets into a bit of financial difficulty.
38:11And he takes out a loan of £125, about $10,000.
38:17And he's struggling to make the repayments.
38:19Eight days after that payment's due, he sells the hotel.
38:24Tough times, huh?
38:26So what's he do then to try to pick up the financial slack?
38:30John makes enough money from the sale to repay the loan.
38:35Yeah.
38:36And to pocket a couple of hundred pounds profit.
38:39Okay.
38:40So what's he do after that?
38:41Well, it's a really interesting period in the history of the colony.
38:45Gold is discovered in 1851.
38:47Gold's a big game-changer.
38:49It causes a lot of disruption, gold fever,
38:53people running around every which way trying to make a fortune.
38:56It's very socially disruptive.
38:58But the big mystery in this period is that Elizabeth,
39:02your three-times great-grandmother, vanishes from the record.
39:08We have no record of her after 1846, whether they separated,
39:13whether she came to some unfortunate end.
39:15We really just don't know.
39:16And there's no death record for Elizabeth.
39:19That's interesting.
39:21But we do then have some evidence in 1852 about what John decides to do next.
39:28Okay.
39:29Marriages.
39:31Solemnised in the parish of Kilmore in the colony of Victoria, year 1852.
39:38John Minton and Hannah Humphries married in this place of worship.
39:45So he's married Hannah Humphries.
39:48Hannah Humphries.
39:49Hannah Humphries in 1952 is about 16 or 17 years old.
39:54Okay.
39:55And he's 39.
39:56And she's like the opposite of a gold digger,
39:59because she's like, wow, I've found a guy who couldn't run a hotel.
40:02I might shack up with him.
40:04And we can whittle our way through his meagre savings.
40:08So we don't really know what's happened,
40:10but he could have also gone on a trip to Sydney like the look of Hannah Humphries,
40:14had a Henry VIII moment and had his previous wife killed.
40:17It's quite possible.
40:18That's me speculating wildly, but it could have happened.
40:23It's a very topsy-turvy time.
40:25Yes.
40:26After 1852, we actually can find no further trace of John.
40:31Did you say after 1852?
40:33So this is interesting to me, because the gold rush is happening.
40:39My brother Phil told me that a story's been handed down through our family
40:43that John Minton may have changed his name,
40:46because he apparently on the gold fields was cutting off the ponytails
40:53of Chinese miners and throwing them down mine shafts.
40:56We can speculate, but we actually don't really know what happens.
41:00We have no record of him in Kilmore after 1852.
41:05Well, what we do know is that John's children from the first marriage to Elizabeth,
41:12they do crop up in the records in Wangaratta.
41:18All right.
41:21I have to go to Wangaratta now.
41:23Okay.
41:24Could have been Berlin.
41:26Rome.
41:28Anything.
41:29I'd even be happy with Dublin.
41:30Well, I learned a bit more about John Minton, which was good,
41:37because now I feel like I know more than my brother,
41:40and I'm feeling quite competitive about that.
41:43I think it's fair to say John Minton was a risk taker.
41:47And I felt bad for John that he couldn't hold on to the pub.
41:51He took out a loan to try to cover his losses,
41:54and then it slipped away from him.
41:56That reminded me of my own parents' misfortune with losing the farm.
42:00So I know what it's like to put so much hard work into something
42:04and then to lose everything.
42:06I've witnessed that up close.
42:07So, yeah, I felt sorry for him and his family and trying to get by.
42:12But we still haven't answered the question as to why he changed his name.
42:14We don't really know why.
42:17And plus he's gone missing, so we don't really know where he is.
42:21Tom now has a deepening mystery on his hands.
42:25Where is John Minton?
42:27Is he on the run from the law after race riots?
42:31And is that why he shed his identity?
42:34Tom's only chance of finding answers
42:37now lies 180 kilometres north-east in Wangaratta.
42:41Here, genealogist Phoebe Wilkins has arranged for Tom to access the town's records.
42:51John Minton disappears essentially for the next decade.
42:56He becomes a bit of a ghost.
42:58We know that he definitely does change his name from John Minton to John Reagan.
43:02So, one of the possibilities is the breakdown of his marriage to Hannah.
43:10Divorce was not adoption at this point.
43:13So, many men abandoned their wives and children.
43:17And one of the catalysts for that was the allure of the gold fields.
43:21Right.
43:22He potentially had the authorities looking for him for maintenance payments.
43:27Could this have been the reason why John Minton changed his name?
43:32Right, so that doesn't quite align with the story that I've been told.
43:36My brother's thinking it's because John was involved in the race riots at the gold fields
43:40where he was cutting off plaits from Chinese miners and throwing them down mine shafts,
43:45which is either a family myth or a fact, but I don't really know.
43:48Have you found any evidence of that?
43:50What we do know is that John and his son George, your two times great-grandfather,
43:56they settle from the mid-1870s at a place called Gorgong in New South Wales, in the Mudgee region.
44:04From this, we can determine that they have left Victoria.
44:11If John had left for the New South Wales gold fields in 1860, then it is entirely possible.
44:20He could have been involved in one of the worst racially motivated riots in Australian history.
44:26In June 1861 at Lambing Flat, near the New South Wales town of Yonge,
44:31fierce competition amongst gold miners triggered anti-Chinese riots.
44:38A mob of up to 3,000 Europeans violently drove the Chinese out, burning their tents, beating and scalping men,
44:47some even taking traditional Chinese cube raids as war trophies.
44:54Months later, the Chinese Immigrants Regulation and Restriction Act was introduced
44:59to curb the numbers of Chinese in the colony.
45:04But the question is, was John Mitten involved in this?
45:08And is this the catalyst for why he changed his name?
45:11Yeah.
45:13Of those more than 3,000, only 11 were brought before the justice system.
45:18So in all of the court and newspaper records from that time, there is no mention of John Mitten being a ringleader,
45:28which would indicate that he possibly was not involved or he was never caught.
45:35Therefore, if he wasn't a ringleader and named, would he have had a reason to change his name and flee?
45:42Well, that's interesting, because that means that the Chinese race riots may not have been a reason for changing the name.
45:48And it's quite possible that this anecdote might be based on a conflating of events.
45:53That's right.
45:54What we do know is that John and his son George, your two times great grandfather, they remain in New South Wales at Gullgong, where they are going by the name of Regan.
46:08OK. Well, I've been to Gullgong before.
46:12It's nice. It's got a good barbecue at the park on the main street, but it's not exactly Paris, is it?
46:19But I'm happy to go. I'll go to Gullgong and find out more about the Regans and not the Mittens.
46:25It's probably not such a bad thing to find out that my family may not have been involved in race riots in the 1800s.
46:38All my relatives can rest a little bit easier.
46:41I'm intrigued about John Mitton becoming John Reagan.
46:47And also I'm intrigued about him being in Gullgong, because he might have run off to chase gold.
46:51Tom's hunt for the truth about John Mitton will expose a legal stoush with the family of an iconic Australian.
47:05Comedian Tom Gleeson is travelling to the New South Wales town of Gullgong, four hours north of Sydney.
47:12Meaning deep water hole, the town takes its name from the language of the traditional owners, the Wiradjuri people.
47:19So John Mitton and his son are now John Reagan and George Reagan.
47:26Now Gullgong's known for gold.
47:30Maybe he came here to find gold?
47:33Or just open another failed pup?
47:35Determined to get answers, Tom has traced his three times great grandfather John and his son George to Gullgong's golden era, the 1870s.
47:52To search the town's records for his ancestor, Tom's meeting historian David Warner at the Henry Lawson Centre.
47:59George and John were living at one of the satellite villages of Gullgong.
48:07Oh, right. Looks like a shithole.
48:10No, no, sorry. It looks...
48:12That's unfair.
48:14It was at the height of the gold rush and it's quite evident they were using the surname Reagan because of documents like this, a marriage certificate.
48:26February 26th, 1874, Gullgong, George Reagan marries Elizabeth Winifred Harvey.
48:36Married in the temporary church Gullgong according to the rites and ceremonies of the Church of England.
48:42Oh dear, this is not great. My Catholic grandmother will be rolling in her grave that she's descended from Protestants.
48:56Not long after the marriage, they moved to New Pipe Clay because there was gold found in that area and John leased a parcel of land to carry out mining from Peter Lawson.
49:12Now Peter Lawson was none other than the father of the famous Australian writer, Henry Lawson.
49:20Right. Okay.
49:26But the relationship soured very, very quickly because Peter Lawson, even though he had no objection to the men mining on that parcel of leased land,
49:39what he did object to was their intent to build.
49:42Okay. So what I'm finding out here is that my three times great-grandfather John...
49:46John...
49:47...pissed off Henry Lawson's dad.
49:49Ah, yes.
49:50Yes, yes.
49:51So John Reagan, what do you think he built?
49:54What?
49:55A pub.
49:56Oh.
49:57He built it in.
49:58But he only kept it for a few months.
49:59Yeah.
50:00And then leased it to some other gentleman.
50:02Well, you know what? I enjoy pissing off public figures too.
50:07Maybe it runs in the family.
50:09Right.
50:10Um, now they stayed around that area for about five years.
50:14Okay.
50:15They upped traps and they moved 400 kilometres north to Walgett.
50:22And it was in 1888 that John died in Walgett at the age of 75.
50:29Wow.
50:30That's a good long life.
50:31Yeah, for that time, certainly is.
50:33John's a real go-getter, isn't he?
50:35Because, I mean, John loves opening a pub.
50:37Yes.
50:38Not committing to it and moving on.
50:40And moving on.
50:41I'm similar, but I just drink in the pub and then move on.
50:44I don't try to own them all.
50:46Yes.
50:50I feel a little bit of disappointment that I couldn't really nail down
50:54whether John Minton was part of those race riots at the gold fields.
50:59But at the same time, it's very exciting for me
51:02because I can tell my brother Phil next time I see him at a family function
51:05that he's full of shit.
51:15When I look back at my ancestors, I am inspired by their resilience.
51:22Yeah, that reminded me of my own parents
51:24and how strong they must have been to start all over again
51:29because my past is full of stories from people having to start their lives again.
51:38I've got a deeper respect for my mother now
51:40when I know what she came from.
51:43She's made of tough stuff and I think that her ancestors are too.
51:48I have made the mistake of thinking that people in the olden days were monogamous and boring.
51:57And it turns out my ancestors, I find that their lives were far more interesting than I expected.
52:03Maybe even a soap opera.
52:04And how can I not do a stand-up routine about my four-time great-grandmother rooting away around colonial Australia?
52:16It's just going to get a mention, I can feel it.
52:18Next time on Who Do You Think You Are?
52:26I've missed out on so many years of not knowing my family.
52:30Camilla Franks encounters a feisty matriarch.
52:33Please tell me she kicked their butt.
52:34That makes her a bigamist.
52:36Oh my God, I love this woman.
52:38Confronts heart-rending trauma.
52:40Mental disease and exhaustion.
52:43I really resonate with that.
52:45And...
52:46Smatter.
52:48Embraces a long-hidden cultural heritage.
52:51It's in my blood.
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