- 6/5/2025
The Senate Homeland Security Committee held a hearing to consider the nominations of Sean Cairncross to be National Cyber Director, Robert Law to be a DHS Undersecretary, James Percival to be General Counsel at DHS, Kevin Rhodes to be OMB's Administrator of Federal Procurement Policy, and James Woodruff to serve on the Merit Systems Protection Board.
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00:00:00Sean Cairncross is nominated to be director of the Office of National Cyber Director.
00:00:07Mr. Cairncross previously served as deputy assistant president in the first Trump administration
00:00:12and as the CEO of Millennium Challenge Corporation.
00:00:16He has spent over two decades in the legal and compliance field.
00:00:20Robert Law is nominated to be undersecretary for strategy, policy, and plans at the Department
00:00:26of Homeland Security.
00:00:27Mr. Law currently serves as senior counselor to the Secretary of Homeland Security.
00:00:32He previously served as a senior policy role in the Citizenship and Immigration Services
00:00:38during the first Trump administration.
00:00:41Kevin Rhodes is nominated to be administrator of the Office of Federal Procurement Policy
00:00:46at the Office of Management and Budget.
00:00:48Mr. Rhodes currently serves as a senior advisor at the Office of Management and Budget.
00:00:53Prior to that, he served over two decades on active duty in the U.S. Air Force.
00:00:58James Woodruff is nominated to be a member of Merit Systems, the Merit Systems Protection Board.
00:01:04Mr. Woodruff currently works at the Board of Veterans Appeals while continuing his decades-long military career
00:01:10as a major in the Air Force Reserves.
00:01:12And last but not least, James Percival is nominated to be general counsel for the Department of Homeland Security.
00:01:19Mr. Percival currently serves as a senior counselor to the Secretary for Homeland Security.
00:01:26He served in various positions in both state and federal government, including as chief of staff
00:01:31for our colleague, Senator Moody, during her time as Attorney General of Florida.
00:01:37The witnesses' written statements have been submitted for the record,
00:01:41and I ask unanimous consent to submit letters of support received for the nominees.
00:01:46In the interest of time, I will forego my opening marks,
00:01:48but we will go ahead and swear in the witnesses to beginning.
00:01:51If you'll each rise and raise your right hand.
00:01:58Do you swear the testimony you will give before this committee will be the truth,
00:02:02the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
00:02:04So help you God.
00:02:09You may be seated.
00:02:18Yeah, why don't we just go to the questions?
00:02:21We will now proceed to a round of questions, and we will start with Senator Moreno.
00:02:35I'm not used to going first when you're in the kids' table, Chairman,
00:02:39but I appreciate that very, very much.
00:02:41First of all, thank you for all of you for your willingness to serve and for being here today.
00:02:47I'll start with you, Mr. Percival.
00:02:49Well, there's a community in Ohio, a county, a great county, it's called Wood County.
00:02:56The county seat's Bowling Green.
00:02:58There was a 24-year-old Venezuelan national who, thanks to Joe Biden's open border policies,
00:03:06made it across the U.S.-Mexico border, was paroled in the United States,
00:03:10somehow managed to get to rural Ohio, and then got enrolled in high school
00:03:16and posed as a 16-year-old high school student, even though he was 24 years old,
00:03:22allegedly was a pedophile, and now is in the Wood County Jail awaiting extradition.
00:03:28How does something like that happen, and what is the plan to make certain to communities in Ohio
00:03:35that something like that could never happen again?
00:03:39Well, thank you, Senator, for the question.
00:03:41I mean, the way that happened is that the last administration broke the law.
00:03:45We actually filed a lawsuit against the Biden administration for the abuse of parole at the border,
00:03:50and we were able to eventually stop that,
00:03:52but it sounds like we didn't do it in time in that particular circumstance, and I'm very sorry for that.
00:03:56No, that's certainly not something that had to do with the Trump administration.
00:04:01That was all as a result of Biden's policies, but if you could explain,
00:04:06because there's a lot of nonsense that is said in the media
00:04:08and from maybe sometimes on the other side of the aisle that we're anti-immigrant.
00:04:13I'm an immigrant. I don't feel that the administration is targeting me.
00:04:17I followed the legal process to come here,
00:04:19but imagine what you would feel like if you're a parent
00:04:22and your teenage daughter is enrolled in high school
00:04:26with a 24-year-old foreign national criminal alien.
00:04:30And if you could just go into detail about what are we doing to find out
00:04:34how these things happen, because there has to be accountability.
00:04:38A 24-year-old Venezuelan doesn't make it to Wood County, Ohio,
00:04:42without a lot of help, a lot of assistance.
00:04:44Who are the NGOs involved?
00:04:46Who housed them?
00:04:47Who provided passage for them?
00:04:50How does this person even enter our country and get to that place?
00:04:55Yes, Senator.
00:04:55So if confirmed, something I would definitely work on
00:04:58is looking at sort of start to finish, how we get to a situation like that.
00:05:02So we have the abuse of the legal processes,
00:05:05like you talked about, abusive parole.
00:05:07We're hopeful that the Lake and Riley Act will help clean up a lot of that.
00:05:10But you're absolutely right about NGOs who are basically running
00:05:15a human trafficking scheme, many of them.
00:05:17And it's something that if confirmed, I'd be happy to look into for you
00:05:20because I agree.
00:05:20And do I have your commitment that we will actually hold
00:05:24these organizations accountable?
00:05:26Clearly, the voters held Joe Biden accountable
00:05:28and Kamala Harris accountable by sending them home
00:05:31and sending them packing, thank God.
00:05:32But I hope that we hold the organizations that facilitate
00:05:36Senator, yes, I talked about this when you were in my office.
00:05:41Again, thank you for your
00:05:42willingness to serve.
00:05:51It's very
00:05:51there's a law on the books.
00:05:54So this is not theoretical.
00:05:56This is not new legislation.
00:06:02Thank you for your service.
00:06:03We see at the airport, we see TSA agents putting on nitrile gloves.
00:06:11The Biden administration chose to buy those gloves from China.
00:06:21In violation of you.
00:06:28You will.
00:06:29Every single federal agency follows the law
00:06:33and buys products from America.
00:06:35Thank you for the question.
00:06:48I absolutely.
00:06:50To serve.
00:06:51One of the things I've noticed in my five months here is the administration
00:06:58has attracted incredible talent.
00:07:03People like all of you that are willing to serve.
00:07:08And that's what gives me great hope for the next four years that we're going to get this
00:07:16country back on track.
00:07:18And with that, Mr. Chairman, I know you're very fastidious on time.
00:07:22And I'm up.
00:07:23My time is up.
00:07:26Very good.
00:07:27Perfect.
00:07:27And then we'll go directly into his questions.
00:07:44Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for your indulgence on that.
00:07:47Today, we are considering nominees in high-level positions.
00:07:52All of these positions are critical for the American people.
00:07:56And while I certainly want to thank the nominees for being here today,
00:08:00this rushed hearing limits our ability as senators to fulfill our
00:08:04case and consent.
00:08:07We're straying even further from our traditional open and public process by
00:08:35not having the nominees give opening statements and by restricting the amount
00:08:40of time for members to actually ask questions from each of you.
00:08:44This not only robs members of the tools to thoroughly evaluate a nominee's
00:08:48qualifications, it also limits transparency for the public.
00:08:52The American people deserve to know whether the president's nominees are up to the
00:08:55task for these very serious roles.
00:08:58This is dismantling under the guise of restructuring.
00:09:07Instead of targeting waste, fraud, and abuse, the Trump administration is
00:09:11indiscriminately firing personnel and canceling funding access across the
00:09:16government, disempowering our agencies and making them and the American people
00:09:20more vulnerable to national security threats.
00:09:23By firing the watchdogs who oversee our government and make sure that it is
00:09:29accountable to the public, the administration is removing avenues to
00:09:33address any harm or wrongdoing.
00:09:36These actions will not make the federal government more efficient and
00:09:39accountable.
00:09:40They will prevent it from effectively serving and protecting the American
00:09:44people.
00:09:45This committee has a responsibility to conduct thorough oversight to ensure that not
00:09:49only the most qualified nominees assume leadership positions, and this rushed
00:09:54process before us today undermines our duty to deliver critical
00:10:04to the American part.
00:10:08Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for the opportunity.
00:10:09Congratulations on you.
00:10:10You've confirmed to coordinate an integrated, serious, serious, zero-day vulnerability.
00:10:19being actively used by a foreign adversary to attack federal agency networks.
00:10:29What would your initial actions be?
00:10:32Sure.
00:10:33Thank you for the question, Senator.
00:10:38Thank you, Chairman Paul, and to the members.
00:10:49Thank you, Michael.
00:10:51Any of you?
00:10:59Which is to the network or system that was previously unknown.
00:11:06I think it would be with the SISA to determine the impact was, what the vulnerability is, how
00:11:19quickly it can be remediated and patched to communicate with the private sector
00:11:24to make sure that we have a good working information flow. And then on the back
00:11:31end, that response should be
00:11:34defense of
00:11:37the federal strategy to secure our agencies against supply chain cyber attacks. Other than sharing information on the attack, which obviously is important, how would you advise the president? Sure. Well, the first thing, Senator, and a goal of mine is to make sure that this office
00:12:03sits at the place that this committee, and I believe Congress intended in the statute, and that is to lead cyber policy coordination across the federal government. And so in doing that, working with our interagency partners is vital. We've been empowered to work with OMB to ensure that budget alignment among the interagency aligns with administration policy.
00:12:32And I think that those tools have to be leveraged. And the relationships between us and the interagency, it's making sure that it is monitored and enforced.
00:12:46Mr. Karen Cross, the two national cyber directors before you had extensive experience in cybersecurity. You have other good experiences, but cybersecurity is not part of that experience.
00:13:02Mr. So my question is, how are you going to make up for these gaps in the experience that you currently have?
00:13:07Mr. Sure. Well, Senator, it's true I don't have a technical background in cyber, but in my roles running private organizations and national party committees, I've been on the user side of this.
00:13:21I've had to deal with foreign nation attacks on our systems. We've worked with the FBI and the intelligence community to learn about them, to stop them, and to monitor those attacks.
00:13:35And so that's, like I say, on the user side, I have that experience. On the management side, I have run thousands of people and billions of dollars in funds.
00:13:46And in doing those jobs, I surround myself with smart people, make sure that the right people are in the right place to do the jobs, and take their advice.
00:14:00Mr. Another question for him. Got a lot of questions for you. We have a lot of other folks here, but I want to make sure I get this out.
00:14:10The Cybersecurity Information Sharing Act of 2015, otherwise known as CISA 2015, is a critical law, as you know, to prevent and provides liability protections for businesses that share threat information with the federal government and each other.
00:14:28Absolutely critical that that sharing occurs. These authorities play a key role in coordinating public-private responses to cyber incidents, including the recent attacks that we saw, Volt and Salt Typhoon attacks.
00:14:41But unfortunately, CISA 2015 is set to expire this September. That has a lot of folks very worried that that protection is going to go away and it's going to hamper our ability to provide the cybersecurity protection that we need for our nation.
00:14:56So my question for you, sir, is if confirmed, do you commit to working with me to extend CISA 2014 before it expires in September?
00:15:06I do, Senator. Yes.
00:15:08Very good.
00:15:11Thank you. Thank you, Mr. President.
00:15:14Thank you. I'd just like to set the record straight.
00:15:17The accusation has been made that we're not doing a thorough vetting or hearing today.
00:15:21All the nominees have submitted statements for the record.
00:15:25They can be read. There'll be a week time to read that.
00:15:28They've all been through an ethics review.
00:15:29They've all been through an FBI review.
00:15:31They've also sat through one hour of questioning with minority staff.
00:15:36There'll be a one to two hour hearing today where questions can be asked.
00:15:40They've also submitted and answered written questions.
00:15:42So the norms for reviewing the candidates are, as they always have been, Senator Moreno, I mean, Senator Moody.
00:15:52Well, we are both freshmen and our names start with them.
00:15:55So honest mistake.
00:15:57Mr. Chairman, thank you so much.
00:15:58Thank you to all of our nominees for stepping up to take this on.
00:16:02I echo the comments.
00:16:05I've never seen an administration attract so much talent from outside the public sector to be willing to give up time with their families, pecuniary benefits, all of the things that come along with being in a private industry to come and work for the government.
00:16:20It has been inspirational to me as someone who has dedicated a lot of my life and indeed left a private practice to begin a life of public service.
00:16:28And I think all of the families that supported them in doing that, I know you have a lot of your family here with you today.
00:16:34In fact, I will tell you, I sat down with two of my top folks, one of which is up for nomination today, Jimmy Percival, when they were considering coming up here to serve in this administration and what that would mean.
00:16:46A move, leaving significant others, time away, that really important time that you might not get back with family.
00:16:53And I said to them, when this country was founded, many people gave up a lot for the prospect of living as a free people in a civilized society.
00:17:02They were away from their families.
00:17:04Many gave up their lives.
00:17:05We can give up time to come and serve this administration and set this country on the right course so that we can continue the prosperity and success of the United States of America.
00:17:14And because two of my top people decided to do that, I've been so proud of them.
00:17:18So congratulations.
00:17:21I am excited to introduce, as part of my remarks, Jimmy Percival, who I can think of no better candidate to be the general counsel of the Department of Homeland Security.
00:17:30And let me explain why.
00:17:32And by the way, I forgot to say, when making that decision to come up and serve, Jimmy has six kids at home, a wife, Emily, who I believe might be a saint, and is here today with all six kids supporting him.
00:17:44So thank you so much.
00:17:46When I took on the role as AG, we fought the last administration tooth and nail as they abandoned the law and opened up our southern border
00:17:55and let in a historic amount of unvetted people into this country, the estimates are anywhere from 11 million to 20 million.
00:18:04If you take the most conservative number, 11 million, that's more than the population of 42 states.
00:18:12When we first saw this administration stop detaining people that were committing crimes, serious felony crimes, and deporting them, and rather releasing them back into the communities, we were the first to file suit on that.
00:18:23When we saw that administration start paroling people into the interior in violation of law, we were one of the first to sue on that.
00:18:32When we saw the administration start creating programs rooted nowhere in law by Congress, we sued on that.
00:18:42When we saw the federal prisons stop deporting people that were arrested internationally and brought here merely because they were drug traffickers,
00:18:50no connection to the United States of America brought here only because they were drug traffickers released from prison and put in our communities in the middle of an opioid epidemic.
00:19:01When we saw these insane policies completely in violation of the law, the tip of the spear in that fight,
00:19:08when we took the Biden administration to court and won, time after time was Jimmy Percival and our team.
00:19:15When we uncovered the plan to, when the border was overrun, just step back and let everyone come in,
00:19:23when we uncovered that secret memo, Jimmy Percival got that done.
00:19:27And as we course correct and try and save this nation and our communities and make sure that they are safe again,
00:19:37I can think of no better person than the person that fought that fight against the lawless actions of the last administration to come in
00:19:43and undo the damage because we're going to have to use laws that we haven't used before
00:19:51because we have never faced a president that opened up our borders and let everyone in.
00:19:56And I can think of no better person to guide a team in the fight in courts and get that done than Jimmy Percival.
00:20:01In fact, when the senator of Michigan said and asked a question,
00:20:05will you be able to make sure this is make our government more effective and not tear it apart?
00:20:10You can imagine my response after watching our security and our borders and our immigration system torn apart over the last four years.
00:20:25The question is, can you make sure we rebuild it?
00:20:28I'm so proud of this president who has, in just three months, brought down the numbers coming over our border unvetted and secured the border.
00:20:39But now we have to make sure we're getting those that are here that will do damage to our citizens and our communities
00:20:44and the security of this nation as we catch people trying to import dangerous substances,
00:20:50as we catch people here on visas stealing information, taking pictures of our military bases.
00:20:55We need people to get people out that are going to do the damage, and we've got to do it quickly, and we've got to do it effectively.
00:21:02And Jimmy Percival, what is your plan to do that?
00:21:05Senator Moody, I think I know when to quit when I'm ahead.
00:21:10But obviously everything you said is very important.
00:21:13I know it's very important to the president and the secretary, and if confirmed,
00:21:16I will work harder than anyone in this administration to make that happen.
00:21:19And do I have your commitment to supporting any action and legislation that I've just filed
00:21:24to approve expedited removal for anyone associated with a gang or criminal activity?
00:21:31Senator, I'll work with you on that. I think those are good ideas.
00:21:36Senator Hassan.
00:21:38Thank you, Mr. Chair and Ranking Member Peters.
00:21:40Good morning to all of the nominees.
00:21:42Congratulations to you all for your nominations, and congratulations to your families, too,
00:21:47because this is a family effort, I know, and we are all grateful for your interest in serving.
00:21:53I'm going to start with a question for all of you, and I'd really ask you to restrict your answer to a simple sentence.
00:22:01If you are directed by the president to take an action that would violate the law,
00:22:05would you follow the president's directive or follow the law?
00:22:08Mr. Cairncross.
00:22:09Senator, thank you for the question.
00:22:10I don't believe that that would ever happen, but to take your question, I would be faithful to the law.
00:22:16Mr. Law.
00:22:18Thank you for the question, Senator.
00:22:19I'm confident that President Trump would not ask me to violate the law, and if confirmed, I will uphold the law.
00:22:25Mr. Percival.
00:22:26Senator, the last two answers were perfect.
00:22:28I'd give the same answer.
00:22:29Okay.
00:22:30Mr. Rhodes.
00:22:31Senator, I agree with my colleagues.
00:22:35Senator, I agree with what's already been said.
00:22:37Well, I appreciate all of you saying you will follow the law.
00:22:41I will just note for the record that I think it is unrealistic to rule out the possibility that this president of the United States would give a directive that violates the law.
00:22:53Now, Mr. Percival.
00:22:56Last month, the White House Deputy Chief of Staff said that President Trump's administration is actively looking at suspending habeas corpus.
00:23:04Two weeks ago, I asked Secretary Noem about this, and today I'd like to ask you about this as well, since you're obviously nominated to be the General Counsel of the Department of Homeland Security.
00:23:14So, Mr. Percival, let's just start with what is habeas corpus?
00:23:18Thank you, Senator.
00:23:19Habeas corpus is a Latin phrase that means you shall have the body.
00:23:22Right.
00:23:23And what is the foundational right that habeas corpus represents in our constitutional democracy?
00:23:29Yeah, well, I guess there's a number of different concepts.
00:23:32There's the writ of habeas corpus, which is a judicial review mechanism.
00:23:36There's what we call the suspension clause, which is about suspending the writ of habeas corpus.
00:23:40And then there are several implications of that for the work that DHS is doing, such as the Alien Enemies Act.
00:23:44Well, so, you know, I appreciate you and I could do a law school debate about this.
00:23:50Let's just get to the core foundational principle here and why it's so important.
00:23:54It is the bedrock principle in our country that prevents the government from imprisoning someone without any justification or review.
00:24:02And it's a key right that makes America a free society, unlike North Korea or Iran.
00:24:09And it's important that we all as Americans understand, appreciate, and defend this principle.
00:24:14And one of the concerns I have, you just gave me an answer that circled around that essential piece of our constitutional democracy.
00:24:24Every American and every person in this country has a right, if they are detained, to demand that the government just come and say why they're detaining them and do it in public and give people that foundational entry to due process.
00:24:40And since many of us have concerns about this administration's commitment to due process, I think it's really important that we understand that foundational right.
00:24:50So do you agree that this is a foundational principle, that the government must bring a person before a court and provide a reason for that person's detention?
00:24:58Do you agree that it's critical that we have this right in order to be a free society?
00:25:02I agree that the Constitution protects the availability of that writ, except in enumerated circumstances in the Constitution.
00:25:09Do you think it's an important thing for a free society?
00:25:13Do you believe we should be a free society?
00:25:15Yes, I believe strongly in the ideals of the founders, and they included that in the Constitution.
00:25:19You're also going to take an oath to the Constitution of the United States, right?
00:25:23Yes, if confirmed, yes, ma'am.
00:25:25If a court says that the Department of Homeland Security must bring a person in the government's custody before a court, will you advise Secretary Noem to follow that order?
00:25:35Thank you, Senator.
00:25:36Senator, the policy of this administration is to follow court orders, and if confirmed, I would act consistent with that policy.
00:25:43Mr. Cairncross, I just want to follow up on the line of questioning that Ranking Member Peters started.
00:25:51He asked you about the reauthorization of the Cybersecurity Information Sharing Act of 2015.
00:25:57I would also love to work with you and the administration on making sure we get that reauthorized.
00:26:03Another law that we also talked about when we met that expires on the exact same day is the state and local cybersecurity grant program.
00:26:11And we've talked about the importance of making sure that the federal government and the private sector, which controls so much critical infrastructure, works together on cybersecurity.
00:26:21But the other piece of that puzzle is to make sure that state and local governments have the tools they need to work effectively with the federal government and the private sector.
00:26:30So would you commit to working with us to reauthorize the state and local cybersecurity grant program as well?
00:26:36Senator, I think there's no more important area, or it is extremely important, the relationship between the state and federal government on this attack.
00:26:48None of you are free of those attacks in your states, as you know, and yes, I look forward to working with you on that issue.
00:26:59It's not just that we're vulnerable to attack.
00:27:01It's that most state and local governments simply do not have the budget or the tools and sometimes can't hire the experts, given the shortage of experts in this field around the country, to effectively guard against these attacks.
00:27:14So it's really important that these grants help them do that.
00:27:16Thank you, Mr. Chair.
00:27:18I would just like to chime in on the heels of Senator Hassan talking about habeas corpus, that while I am a Republican, while I am generally supportive of the administration, the policy, and think Secretary Noem's done a great job,
00:27:31if there's an attempt to suspend habeas corpus, even though it's in the Constitution, you will find not only wholehearted opposition to it, you will find full-throated opposition to it from me.
00:27:42So let's hope that that was an idle comment that is not repeated.
00:27:45And comments like that are very, very dangerous.
00:27:50And so I hope the person who issued that will think twice before saying things like that again.
00:27:57Senator Kim.
00:27:58Thank you, Chairman.
00:28:01Mr. Law, I'd like to start with you.
00:28:04We're seeing reports that the acting FEMA director was unaware that there was a hurricane season.
00:28:10I've also seen reports that the hurricane plan wasn't completed prior to the start of hurricane season.
00:28:15So I just wanted to ask you, does that seem acceptable to you?
00:28:20Thank you for the question, Senator.
00:28:22I'm not familiar with those reports.
00:28:24But what I can tell you is, from my understanding, as senior counselor to the secretary, they are taking a very critical look at FEMA because it has failed to operate the way it should.
00:28:33And they are definitely focused on that.
00:28:35Well, I guess I would just like to restate this.
00:28:38Do you think that we should have a FEMA director that understands when hurricane season begins?
00:28:44I believe that the secretary has confidence in the current leadership of FEMA.
00:28:48Do you know when hurricane season starts and ends?
00:28:52We are currently in hurricane season.
00:28:54And when does it end?
00:28:56I believe it ends sometime in September or October.
00:28:58It ends at the end of November.
00:29:01And I just raise this because there is no mention of anything about natural disasters in your opening statement about the importance that Homeland Security plays with this.
00:29:11And you're talking about FEMA.
00:29:14Are you in support of abolishing FEMA?
00:29:17Do you support some of the statements that the president has made in that direction?
00:29:22Thank you for the question, Senator.
00:29:23I think the president and the secretary have been abundantly clear that FEMA in its current form is not working.
00:29:30And I am up for a policy position, not an operational role in FEMA.
00:29:35But to the extent that there are policies relevant to FEMA, I, if confirmed, would be happy to work with you on those.
00:29:42Well, I mean, you would be in charge of strategy, policy, and plans.
00:29:46And I think having a hurricane plan is very important.
00:29:49I think having a plan on how to address natural disasters are very important.
00:29:52And I guess I want to ask you, do you see a role for FEMA and the Department of Homeland Security to be a focal point when it comes to addressing natural disasters around the country?
00:30:03Or do you think that should be at the state level?
00:30:05Well, thank you for the question, Senator.
00:30:07I think there has always been a role for the state and locals to be the lead when it comes to natural disasters and that FEMA plays an important supporting role.
00:30:16But FEMA has failed to deliver.
00:30:18It's my understanding that there are still outstanding claims going all the way back to Hurricane Katrina.
00:30:22I don't discount the fact that there are reforms to be made and problems that exist.
00:30:26But I want to just redirect you to the primary mission stated in the founding document of Homeland Security,
00:30:32which says directly that DHS is acting as a focal point regarding natural and man-made crises and emergency planning.
00:30:40And I just say that because I do not see this administration taking that aspect of responding to natural disasters as centrally and important and critically as it should be.
00:30:53And I just want to hit that home with you because if you are confirmed, I hope that you can commit to working with me and working with this committee to making sure that we're addressing those issues.
00:31:03Can you do that?
00:31:04Thank you for the question, Senator.
00:31:06If confirmed, of course, I would be happy to work with you on the crisis management and emergency response efforts of the Department of Homeland Security.
00:31:12Mr. King-Cross, I wanted to just turn to you.
00:31:15How are we doing as a nation when it comes to cybersecurity?
00:31:18How would you kind of rate us in terms of our preparedness?
00:31:20Well, Senator, what I think is these attacks are increasing, they're becoming more sophisticated, and they're scaling up.
00:31:30And so I believe that this office was intended by the statute to help coordinate and focus that policy.
00:31:40So you're saying that the threats are increasing and they're scaling up.
00:31:44Is that right?
00:31:45Correct.
00:31:45Then why is it that the Trump administration is trying to decrease the staffing and the budget when it comes to an incredibly important office like CISA?
00:31:56Well, Senator, what I think is this is a complicated vector, but at its core, this is a human nature issue.
00:32:05Our enemies do not see a cost in engaging in this behavior.
00:32:10And so they impose strategic dilemmas on us, and they have now for a long period of time.
00:32:17It's time that we impose those dilemmas on them.
00:32:20Yeah, I agree with that, but I feel like, you know, an important part of that is to have the staff necessary.
00:32:26I mean, it just, you're talking about a challenging vector here.
00:32:29I mean, I'm having a hard time understanding.
00:32:30If threats of cybersecurity are increasing, as you said, and scaling up, why is our investment in it going down?
00:32:39Well, Senator, I think a first management principle for me is that form follows function.
00:32:43And so I know with regards to this office, if I am to be confirmed, I'm going to use that principle to make sure that the function we're serving,
00:32:55which is to defend the United States from these attacks, to keep our critical infrastructure safe, to keep our citizens safe,
00:33:04because, as we know, these criminals and enemies target the most vulnerable Americans,
00:33:10that the form that we take is the most efficient, effective way to service that mission.
00:33:18I'll you bet.
00:33:21Senator Slotkin.
00:33:23Thank you, Chairman, and thank you for your intervention after Senator Hassan.
00:33:29Welcome to all of you.
00:33:30I did a confirmation hearing like this many, many, many moons ago.
00:33:34A group one, and I was the only one who got questions.
00:33:37So for those of you who are getting less questions, you're getting off really easy,
00:33:40and you should thank your fellow peers here on the dais afterwards.
00:33:45Let me start on cybersecurity.
00:33:47You know, as a former CIA officer, I feel like we all know that cyber attacks are increasing.
00:33:56In your own words, attacks are increasing.
00:33:58They're becoming more sophisticated.
00:33:59They're becoming more prevalent.
00:34:01And then with the use of AI, they're becoming much more smart, much more capable.
00:34:06But if you are confirmed, you will oversee the single biggest cut in cybersecurity dollars,
00:34:13a $495 million cut to cybersecurity.
00:34:16And I know that the president has it out for certain members of the cybersecurity community
00:34:21of his own administration from the first time.
00:34:24But the truth is, you're cutting programs that help our state and locals, like the state of Michigan,
00:34:28actually defend against these things.
00:34:30Our infrastructure, it's really my power companies who have come to me and said,
00:34:34we used to get quarterly updates from CISA and get a sense of, like, the threat picture across the country.
00:34:40Now we don't have that.
00:34:41We feel vulnerable.
00:34:42I really feel like the United States is in a situation with cyber the way we were with terrorism before 9-11.
00:34:50Terrorism attacks were happening.
00:34:52Some people watched them, but they really didn't enter in a huge way the American consciousness
00:34:58until we had a spectacular attack.
00:35:01And I am deeply worried that we're going to have a spectacular cyber attack.
00:35:05And you're going to be left holding the bag.
00:35:07I mean, you're here.
00:35:08They pulled the nomination of the other guy on cyber from this panel.
00:35:12You're the head guy.
00:35:14So help me understand, honestly, in a way that speaks to the average person who's, like,
00:35:20a principal of a K-12 school whose kid's data is being ransomed.
00:35:25How can you justify a nearly $500 million cut on cybersecurity given what you yourself just said?
00:35:33Well, Senator, I think, to your point, the vast majority of cyber defense in this country falls on the private sector.
00:35:41And so one of the key elements that I see—
00:35:44Not my K-12 schools.
00:35:45Not my public hospitals.
00:35:47Not the utilities.
00:35:49And state and local, territorial and tribal are extremely important, as we were chatting about earlier.
00:35:56And that's what affects the average American, right?
00:35:58That's what—they all know we have a cyber attack once every 39 seconds in America.
00:36:02So everyone in this room has had someone try to get their data.
00:36:06Senator, the University of Michigan, the health care system, schools in your state alone,
00:36:11I mean, the members of this panel have had tens of millions, hundreds of millions.
00:36:16Florida, I think, is over a billion dollars.
00:36:17So explain a cut.
00:36:18I mean, just be honest about it.
00:36:20You can't say you care about an increasing and more sophisticated set of attacks
00:36:24while cutting the very people who help defend against those attacks.
00:36:28And I want to do offensive cyber.
00:36:30I want to make them feel pain for the Russians and the Chinese that are launching these attacks.
00:36:34I'm there with you.
00:36:35I will add money there.
00:36:36But you can't add by subtracting.
00:36:39And I think we just have to own that, that the petty desires of the president are going to leave us more vulnerable.
00:36:45And you're going to be the guy.
00:36:46If we have our cyber 9-11, you're going to be the guy who's sitting there saying,
00:36:50oh, holy crap, we just cut all this money and I just had all the power go out on the eastern seaboard.
00:36:56Or the Chinese stole a whole bunch of our personal data from every hospital and every school.
00:37:02So I just, let's not pretend that a cut actually helps defend against what you agree is an increasing set of attacks.
00:37:08I just want to ask in my short time, I'll leave you alone.
00:37:11I know I'll move to the next guy.
00:37:13Mr. Percival, you are going to be the general counsel of the Department of Homeland Security.
00:37:18The Supreme Court of the United States currently has a court order, multiple court orders,
00:37:23with the Department of Homeland Security.
00:37:26John Roberts, the biggest guy in the land we have on the Supreme Court, has issued those court orders.
00:37:33And DHS is not complying.
00:37:35If you want this job as general counsel, will you comply with the court orders from the Supreme Court of the United States?
00:37:42Well, thank you, Senator.
00:37:43I have some awareness of that situation in my role as senior counselor.
00:37:46If confirmed, as I said, it is this administration's policy to follow court orders.
00:37:50It's not this administration's policy.
00:37:52Can you agree that right now they are not implementing Supreme Court court orders?
00:37:57You can't say it's policy if they're not implementing them.
00:37:59I absolutely disagree with that.
00:38:01So there's multiple aspects to facilitating the return of somebody.
00:38:03One of them is the DHS side of it, which is, you know, we call it eliminating domestic obstacles to return.
00:38:09So if someone shows up at a port of entry, we'd make sure they get in the country.
00:38:12The second piece would be international negotiations because the individuals are in the custody of a foreign government.
00:38:18So that's a State Department piece.
00:38:21DHS doesn't do foreign policy.
00:38:23But obviously those are very complicated negotiations.
00:38:25Yeah, but you can't say we haven't negotiated with the country to get them back.
00:38:28The president of El Salvador, where one of these guys is being held, was in the Oval Office.
00:38:32So we have access to this president to facilitate negotiations.
00:38:36DHS is choosing not to adhere to court orders from the Supreme Court.
00:38:41And you're going to be a lawyer.
00:38:42I know I'm over time.
00:38:43But I would just ask that you please obey the Constitution and the separation of powers, not just Donald Trump.
00:38:51Senator Lankford.
00:38:54Thank you, all the witnesses, and for your commitment to be able to be here and to be able to do the task that the nation's needs.
00:39:00And the president's asked you to be able to do.
00:39:02This is a very difficult process.
00:39:03It's a long process.
00:39:04It's a stressful process.
00:39:05And there's 10 million forms, and everyone's invading your privacy to be able to go through this.
00:39:11Your families have already been through a lot.
00:39:12It's great to be able to see all your families that are here as well.
00:39:15But this is a tough process.
00:39:16So thanks for stepping up and doing it, because we need a lot of help.
00:39:20Mr. Kieran Cross, let me start with you on this, on the cybersecurity side.
00:39:24In the past, last year, towards the tail end of the Biden administration,
00:39:27we had the largest cyber penetration in the history of our country, where the Chinese invaded our telecom.
00:39:33And they got in all systems.
00:39:35They're in D.C.'s telecom system.
00:39:37It was a massive penetration that has actually occurred.
00:39:40By the way, that was when full funding was happening.
00:39:42I know we just had a conversation saying if you cut funding, what happens?
00:39:45When there was full funding, that occurred.
00:39:49What can we do at this point?
00:39:50And what would you say are your priorities stepping in to be able to protect America and our infrastructure?
00:39:55Well, the first thing I'd say, Senator, is in response to the first part of that,
00:40:02there's nothing that the president of the United States cares more about than the protection of American citizens.
00:40:09And I'm grateful to have his confidence and the confidence of the White House to be able to execute in this role.
00:40:16What you're talking about, SALT typhoon.
00:40:19Correct.
00:40:21And let me add on to their VOLT typhoon, demonstrates China is without question the single biggest threat in this domain that we face.
00:40:31And what VOLT and SALT show, and SALT was the espionage telecom hack, which is ongoing,
00:40:40and VOLT is a pre-positioning on our critical infrastructure.
00:40:45And what that demonstrates, to the earlier point I was making about strategic dilemmas,
00:40:49is China is squatting on our critical infrastructure systems,
00:40:53and they have an ability to exercise that at a time and place of their choosing.
00:40:59And that should be unacceptable.
00:41:01And it is unacceptable.
00:41:03And so I look forward to working to do everything I can to make sure that our adversaries,
00:41:09our enemies, and criminals who operate in this space know that it is not a cost-free endeavor.
00:41:16Yeah.
00:41:18We're all counting on that to be able to stay engaged.
00:41:20I would tell you that all of our entities come back to me with the same thing.
00:41:23If the Chinese were to roll in with airplanes and tanks and to be able to attack us,
00:41:28we expect the United States to be able to step up and do something.
00:41:30If they're coming in the cyber world and they're attacking us and destroying our infrastructure,
00:41:34we expect the United States to be able to help us engage in this.
00:41:37So we anticipate that.
00:41:39Mr. Rhodes, I want to ask you a little bit about one of the issues that's come up several times.
00:41:44Federal law already requires that if a federal contractor is in place or subcontractor,
00:41:52that they do e-verify for those individuals.
00:41:55We have now discovered that that was not actually occurring,
00:41:57that there was just kind of a check the box, did you do it?
00:42:00There was no verify.
00:42:01So it was all trust, no verify in the process.
00:42:03For our contractors and the subcontractors in the process,
00:42:06what would you do to be able to make sure that contractors and subcontractors
00:42:10are following the law that currently exists on hiring someone
00:42:16who's not legally present in the country for a federal contract?
00:42:18Senator, thank you for the question.
00:42:20I think my colleagues thank you for the question to me as well.
00:42:23I would take a hard look at that because I do believe in that.
00:42:27And so I think, you know, through the Office of Federal Procurement Policy,
00:42:31we'll take a look, if confirmed, at how folks are following that law.
00:42:36And if we need to put stricter regulations in place and prove the systems that manage that,
00:42:41then we should do that.
00:42:42Great.
00:42:42I appreciate that question.
00:42:44We will count on that and we'll do some follow-up on it back and forth.
00:42:47Mr. Law, I want to just highlight something.
00:42:49In the next four years, we have FIFA World Cup,
00:42:53we have America's 250th birthday, and we have the Olympics coming.
00:42:58Those are massive events for security.
00:43:01When I visited with DHS leaders two years ago, we were clearly not ready.
00:43:08So what has been handed to DHS is not a well-formed plan to be able to be prepared
00:43:12for the entire world coming here.
00:43:14I'm asking you, how are you going to ramp up for those massive security events?
00:43:18Well, thank you for the question, Senator.
00:43:20And we also have the Club World Cup coming up here in due course as well.
00:43:24I completely agree with you that the plan that we inherited to prepare for those major events
00:43:29was insufficient when we came in in January.
00:43:33And as senior counselor, I've been working with a lot of those teams to do that,
00:43:37recognizing where there are vulnerabilities.
00:43:40And of course, as you know, the president has tapped Andrew Giuliani,
00:43:43who is incredibly competent and capable of executing, particularly on the FIFA World Cup effort.
00:43:49And to the extent that there are any policy shortcomings, whether it is in the security aspect of it,
00:43:55countering the drone threat as well, or anything to do with the facilitation of the movement of fans,
00:44:02the teams, or, you know, getting, you know, immigration benefits for those to come to enjoy all of those events
00:44:07here in our great country, I would definitely work with you if committed to help clear those up
00:44:13and make sure there are sound policies that make these events all very successful.
00:44:17Okay. We'll count on that. Thank you.
00:44:20I'd just like to chime in on the sporting events.
00:44:22Most of these organizations are very rich.
00:44:24Why don't we charge them if we're going to help them?
00:44:26I'm fine for helping them, but the NFL should pay.
00:44:30FIFA should pay. They all should pay for what the government does.
00:44:32It's nothing's free and we're $2 trillion short.
00:44:36Senator Blumenthal.
00:44:37Thanks, Mr. Chairman.
00:44:38Thank you all for being here.
00:44:39Thanks for your willingness to serve.
00:44:42And thank you to your families as well who are serving when you do.
00:44:45Mr. Percival, as you well know, the president last night issued a very broad travel ban.
00:44:56My view is that it may well be overbroad and blunderbuss, denying our nation energy and talents and skills that we need for our economy,
00:45:08not to mention the humanitarian concerns that many of us have.
00:45:12We're still analyzing and evaluating this ban, but it strikes me as problematic in a number of respects, constitutionally as well as in terms of policy.
00:45:28But I want to focus particularly on the impact of one of the aspects of this program as it affects our Afghan at-risk allies who were interpreters and security guards and aided our troops and diplomats.
00:45:47My son is one of them.
00:45:50He was a Marine Corps officer in Afghanistan who was greatly aided by his interpreter.
00:45:55He brought him over after a couple of years of working hard in the system.
00:46:01I've been a champion of the Afghan Adjustment Act.
00:46:04I care deeply about these Afghan allies who put their lives on the line.
00:46:09They now have targets on their back.
00:46:11If they have to go back to Afghanistan, they'll be tortured and murdered.
00:46:15Several months ago, the administration suspended the United States Refugee Admissions Program,
00:46:21which left hundreds of these Afghan allies stranded in Pakistan and Qatar, having fled the Taliban,
00:46:29only to get stuck by our apathy in a third country while already engaged in the screening process to come here.
00:46:38Now the administration has suspended all immigrant and non-immigrant visas for Afghan nationals pursuant to the travel ban that President Trump issued yesterday.
00:46:51Would you agree with me, I hope you will, that we ought to, first of all, make individualized determinations on many of the people wanting to come to this country,
00:47:02but specifically focusing on our Afghan allies?
00:47:07Shouldn't we allow these people to come to the country that they served in Afghanistan
00:47:13and now are at risk, along with their families, of death and torture if they're not allowed to come here?
00:47:20Well, thank you, Senator, for the question.
00:47:21First of all, thank you to your son for his service.
00:47:23Obviously, the American public appreciates that.
00:47:27Honestly, I was getting ready for this hearing.
00:47:29I think this just broke last night.
00:47:30I'm not super familiar with the President's order.
00:47:32My understanding is it's under 212F of the INA, which I believe the Ninth Circuit just said exudes deference to the President.
00:47:39So this is a decision that the President makes.
00:47:42As General Counsel has confirmed, my focus would be on providing legal advice.
00:47:46Will you work on making exceptions for those allies, mainly from Afghanistan, but possibly other countries, who, in effect, provide these services?
00:47:56Because if we don't help them now, nobody's going to want to help our troops in the future when they are on the ground serving our country in other countries.
00:48:08If confirmed, Senator, I'm happy to continue this conversation.
00:48:11Like I said, I'm not super familiar with the order that was signed last night.
00:48:14Would you agree with me that people in this country who are not citizens are entitled to due process?
00:48:21Senator, I think that the discussion about due process has gotten a little confusing because due process is not a one-size-fits-all.
00:48:28The question is, how much process are you due?
00:48:30So depending on your circumstances, the amount of process that you're due under the due process clause will vary significantly.
00:48:36You know, for example, expedited removal involves a very rapid deportation.
00:48:39But they are entitled to some due process.
00:48:43I know that courts make distinctions, but due process has a meaning, as you well know.
00:48:51I think it's a yes or no answer.
00:48:53Yes, they are entitled to due process.
00:48:55Whatever process they're due, and that's going to vary significantly, Senator.
00:48:58In some cases, it will be very little, like, for example, expedited removal.
00:49:03Isn't it in all cases yes?
00:49:04That's a very categorical statement, Senator, but my understanding of the due process clause...
00:49:11Well, sometimes lawyers have to enforce rights categorically because we are a great country that follows the law.
00:49:19And the Constitution says that everybody in this country is entitled to fairness.
00:49:24And a day in court before an impartial and objective tribunal if something significant is going to happen to them as a result of government action.
00:49:37Wouldn't you agree with that proposition?
00:49:38I would not agree with that statement.
00:49:40That's a very categorical description of the due process clause that is not consistent with the Supreme Court's decision in Matthews v. Eldridge.
00:49:45It really depends whether it's a court or an officer.
00:49:49Expedited removal is a very good example of that.
00:49:51Let me just ask you, finally, you had an exchange with one of my colleagues here about obeying court orders.
00:49:59If FEMA is ordered to rehire people who have been terminated, will you obey that court order?
00:50:10As I said before, Senator, my understanding of this administration's policy is to follow court orders.
00:50:14And if your department is ordered to claw back, is ordered against clawing back funds, will you obey that order?
00:50:25Senator, this administration's policy is to follow court orders.
00:50:30It's been asked several times about CISA and reauthorizing CISA.
00:50:34I think one of the things as we looked at, and I think Mr. Karen Cross's point is well made,
00:50:39I think that the private sector deals with a lot of cyber threats, and if anything's probably better.
00:50:44If you compare sort of the protection of privacy of government, there's been a lot of government breaches of data,
00:50:49and maybe not so many, but there are breaches everywhere.
00:50:52But I would think maybe the learning curve might be the government actually learning from some people in the private marketplace.
00:50:58But on reauthorizing this, one of the things that President Trump has done,
00:51:02which I think is an extraordinary defense of the First Amendment, is to say that government is no longer going to be in the business of censorship.
00:51:11Government's not going to be meeting with social media companies.
00:51:14CISA's not going to be meeting with them.
00:51:16The FBI's not going to be meeting with them.
00:51:18There'll be no intimidation.
00:51:19There'll be no threats.
00:51:20There'll be no, we're going to use antitrust against you.
00:51:23We're going to take away your liability.
00:51:26These were not even veiled threats against big companies, against Facebook, against Twitter.
00:51:31And I'm very proud that President Trump has said no more, that that's gone.
00:51:35In order to get policy, though, that we can live under, you know, we don't know who the next president will be.
00:51:41We always want to try to change the law, too.
00:51:43So while I'm proud of that executive action, I will do everything in my power to make sure the CISA authorization has a clause in it
00:51:49that states that no government resources for CISA will be utilized to diminish in any way constitutionally protected speech.
00:52:01Mr. Cancross, do you have any comment on that or any problem with that clause, if we insert that into the authorities?
00:52:06I do not have a problem with that, Senator.
00:52:09Mr. Law, any comment on it?
00:52:13I do not.
00:52:14I would echo my colleague here.
00:52:17Senator Fetterman.
00:52:19Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
00:52:25I know.
00:52:26It's like we all know what happened.
00:52:32The new administration, and they have a much, much different kind of a view on immigration and the border.
00:52:40And I actually agree with parts of it, honestly.
00:52:44I've said this publicly, and I'll say this again.
00:52:46And I believe our party did not, they didn't do a good job with the border, you know, and I was very clear on that.
00:52:54And then also, I actually, I'd like to say that I was the lead co-sponsor of the Lincoln Bill.
00:53:04I believe, I believe that we can be very pro-immigration, but we also have to have a very secure border.
00:53:13And that puts me in a different place now.
00:53:18Some people didn't feel like I honored the spirit of immigration, but I actually believe that I did.
00:53:29And now today, I'm going to continue that part of my conversation and my commitment.
00:53:32And now, and that is with DACA, DACA.
00:53:37Okay, now we can all agree with that.
00:53:39Now, for me, now, my wife, my wife was a former dreamer.
00:53:44My wife was a former dreamer.
00:53:46And now I wouldn't have the family that I have, you know, if it wasn't for her.
00:53:50But, you know, she was brought to the country when she was seven years old.
00:53:53And of course, and now I know, Mr. Law, I know we all have LexisNexis, and we all know,
00:54:00and I know that you don't have a strong opinion for dreamers and DACA.
00:54:06So I'm not going to turn it into gotcha theater, because I really want to have like a sincere conversation here in our brief time we're here.
00:54:14And now, for example, I'm trying to understand why punishing dreamers that were brought here as children here in this country now,
00:54:22why there's not a path for citizenship, why when they're making these kinds of important contributions here to our nation.
00:54:31And it's like, can we only just be punitive and vengeful about immigration,
00:54:36why we can't even acknowledge that that could be part of something very, very positive thing for our nation.
00:54:44Thank you for the question, Senator.
00:54:46Thank you for your support of border security, as well as the Lake and Riley Act.
00:54:49And I'd also like to thank you for a leading role in combating anti-Semitism that has just exploded in recent times.
00:54:57To the specific question of illegal aliens receiving a path to citizenship, that is solely the purview of Congress.
00:55:06The most notable legislative opportunity that I'm familiar with is known as the DREAM Act.
00:55:11And it's my understanding that that bill has gone before the Congress numerous times, and every single time it has failed.
00:55:19So, but personally, any of you in front of us here today, do any of you perhaps could consider or maybe support something like that,
00:55:30that legislative solution for DREAMers?
00:55:33Well, thank you for the question, Senator.
00:55:38I think it is the purview of the lawmakers to pass legislation and present those to the president.
00:55:45And thus far, it's been my understanding that that bill has failed to, you know, require,
00:55:49to obtain the votes necessary to make it to the White House.
00:55:52So, for me, because it just continually just seems to, it seems to, like, it's difficult to, you know,
00:56:01two things must be true, a secure border, but then now, and we also can celebrate immigration as well, too.
00:56:08And now, for me, you know, we had a young person in Georgia,
00:56:13Jimena, Jimena, and she was just pulled over, and it was actually the wrong car.
00:56:17And she, of course, she was a dreamer, and now she could be looking at a possible situation of being deported for that.
00:56:26She was brought here as a young, young child.
00:56:28I'm not really sure it's American to punish a person who is living her best life
00:56:34and making significant contributions to our nation to be punished for a decision for a parent
00:56:41when they were five, six, seven, eight years at that point.
00:56:45And, you know, I don't believe that it's an American way to just put them in, like, a permanent kinds of purgity.
00:56:53We're always worrying about looking over the shoulder that now, the next single time, then they could be deported.
00:56:59They are being paid for sins that they were not a part of that thing.
00:57:03And I'm hopeful, and I'm saying it now publicly today again.
00:57:07You know, somebody as a Democrat committed to a secure border,
00:57:09why can't we deliver a solution for our dreamers?
00:57:14Because immigration is part of America's superpower, and it's made us much stronger and better.
00:57:19And two things must be true at the same time.
00:57:22And now, thank you.
00:57:24My time has expired, and thank you for answering my questions.
00:57:28Senator Holling.
00:57:29Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
00:57:31Congratulations to all the nominees.
00:57:33Thank you for being here.
00:57:34Mr. Cairncross, let me just start with you, if I could.
00:57:37And one of the most pressing, but I think also one of the most overlooked vulnerabilities
00:57:42when it comes to our national cybersecurity posture is the crisis facing our rural hospitals.
00:57:47And I say this as somebody in a state where 40 percent, 40 percent, of the hospitals in Missouri are rural hospitals.
00:57:55Many of these hospitals have no full-time cybersecurity personnel.
00:58:00They can't afford it.
00:58:01They don't have the personnel for it.
00:58:02They don't have the budget for it.
00:58:03And that makes them easy targets for cybercriminals, for ransomware gangs, and even sometimes for nation-state actors.
00:58:10And as you can appreciate, when these hospitals are attacked, it's not just their IT systems that go offline.
00:58:16It's cancer treatments.
00:58:18It's surgeries that get canceled.
00:58:20It's emergency care that gets disrupted.
00:58:21So let me just ask you, are you familiar generally with this issue and the plights that rural hospitals face in this regard?
00:58:28I am, Senator, and I was saying earlier, these criminals and our enemies are targeting the most vulnerable Americans, and it's got to stop.
00:58:37Let me ask you, how would you use your position to help shore up the cyber defenses of rural hospitals
00:58:43and the broader healthcare sector's vulnerability in critical infrastructure when it comes to this issue?
00:58:49Sure.
00:58:50The first thing is getting my feet on the ground, working with you, working with all your offices in your states
00:58:59to ensure that I'm hearing and understand what those needs are.
00:59:04And then I'm using, if I'm confirmed, the position as the lead coordinator for the U.S. government's cyber policy
00:59:12to make sure that they have the defenses that they need.
00:59:17Good.
00:59:17Well, let me tell you about something that we've been doing on our end.
00:59:20Last Congress, this committee unanimously advanced my bipartisan bill, the Rural Hospital Cybersecurity Enhancement Act.
00:59:28Ranking Member Peters and I co-sponsored it with many others on this committee.
00:59:31It directed the development of a comprehensive cybersecurity strategy for rural hospitals.
00:59:37It would also have directed instructional materials and resources to be made available to these hospitals
00:59:43because, again, they don't have the budget for consultants.
00:59:46They don't have the budget for people to come in and do this for them.
00:59:49Does that sound like the kind of approach that you would be willing to work with us on?
00:59:55It does, and I look forward to working with you and your team on it.
00:59:59Fantastic.
01:00:00Well, I'll take you up on that.
01:00:01I think it's absolutely vital for my state and for the many, many rural hospitals in my state.
01:00:08Let me shift gears a little bit and talk about foreign hackers in a different context.
01:00:12The threat that's already inside the wire,
01:00:14where state-sponsored cyber actors embedding themselves in our infrastructure systems,
01:00:18we have been told we already have in our telecom system,
01:00:22this is the salt typhoon issue,
01:00:25we already have hackers who are embedded.
01:00:28In your assessment, how vulnerable are our critical systems to these kind of state-sponsored infiltration campaigns?
01:00:34Well, Senator, what I was saying is these attacks are scaling up and they're becoming more sophisticated.
01:00:39And so what really is key, since so much of cyber defense falls on the private sector in our country,
01:00:48is a great relationship between the United States government and the private sector.
01:00:53And that involves going to them and listening and figuring out what is the barrier to a smooth and efficient and effective defense.
01:01:05And in some cases, that is working on a regulatory scheme that makes sense.
01:01:10It's incentivizing information flow.
01:01:13And it's using the comparative advantage of the United States government,
01:01:17which can illuminate the battlefield for the private sector and leveraging those assets.
01:01:24Let me just ask you about what can be done in the way of remediation,
01:01:29which is kind of a fancy word for kicking these foreign actors out of our telecom system.
01:01:34I don't think the American people realize, in fact, I'm sure they don't.
01:01:36They don't realize the extent to which our current telecom system has been deeply compromised.
01:01:42I mean, I'll just tell you, members of Congress were told a year ago now, not even a year ago,
01:01:46that we should just expect that our telephone conversations, any unencrypted text messages,
01:01:54are being monitored constantly by foreign actors.
01:01:57Our voice messages may well be read.
01:01:59And that's not because there's special access to members of Congress.
01:02:02It's just because that's where foreign actors would choose to concentrate.
01:02:05If a foreign actor chose to concentrate on any member of the audience here,
01:02:09what we were told, behind closed doors, of course,
01:02:13but what we were told is that foreign actors basically have unlimited access
01:02:18to our voice messages, to our telephone calls.
01:02:22This is astounding.
01:02:23And the American people don't realize it because the American people haven't been told.
01:02:26This has been kept from them.
01:02:27And they're sitting, these foreign actors are sitting right now.
01:02:31They're sitting in our telecom system, in our exchanges.
01:02:35What are we going to do to get them out of there and protect the American people who right now are sitting ducks?
01:02:41And frankly, they haven't been told the truth.
01:02:43Yeah.
01:02:43Senator, I think that that is correct.
01:02:46I think you're right that the American public is largely unaware of the scale of this issue.
01:02:52This is not an IT issue.
01:02:54This is an operational issue.
01:02:55It manifests in real life.
01:02:57And it has real, potentially, life-and-death consequences.
01:03:01And as I've said over and over again,
01:03:03they are targeting the most vulnerable among us along with our telecom system.
01:03:09Volt Typhoon was critical infrastructure.
01:03:11They are squatting on our system.
01:03:13It is imposing, as I've said, a strategic dilemma on us.
01:03:17And that behavior needs to change.
01:03:20And in order to do that, I believe we should begin to impose strategic dilemmas on our adversaries in this domain.
01:03:26Well, that would certainly be a good start.
01:03:27Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
01:03:29Time has expired.
01:03:30Senator Peters.
01:03:32Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
01:03:34Mr. Percival.
01:03:35On April 4th, the DHS announced that it was permanently canceling the Building Resilient Infrastructure and Communities, or BRIC, program.
01:03:47It included canceling funding for projects that are actually currently in progress.
01:03:53Just basically pulled the plug from them.
01:03:55These projects are critical for communities to reduce their risk before a disaster strikes.
01:04:02As a result, we have a tornado shelter, for example, in Salem Township, Michigan, that may not be finished.
01:04:08Construction has begun, but it's being just pulled out, which doesn't seem really thoughtful.
01:04:13Use of taxpayer dollars to do it halfway and then pull out and stop a project.
01:04:17And then if you look at resilience projects generally, they tend to save taxpayer money to build it stronger up front.
01:04:24It's a lot cheaper than fixing it later.
01:04:27So my question for you, sir, is if confirmed, do you commit to following the law, which I've heard you say that you will do many times,
01:04:35and reinstate these illegally canceled funding from Congress that's appointed to the BRIC program,
01:04:42because following the law would reinstate that funding?
01:04:44Well, thank you for the question, Senator.
01:04:46And I know we've talked about this before.
01:04:48So I haven't been super involved in that in my role as senior counselor,
01:04:51but I would respectfully push back on the suggestion that DHS has violated the law.
01:04:56You know, I have a general understanding of the Impoundment Act and the various options that DHS has.
01:05:01If confirmed, I'd be happy to dig into that for you, but I don't have the same understanding that you do that DHS has violated the law.
01:05:06Do you believe that appropriations by Congress are law?
01:05:11Yes, Senator, I do.
01:05:12My understanding of the Impoundment Act is when you have an appropriation and a new administration comes in,
01:05:17if they want to revisit programs and change them within the scope of the existing appropriation,
01:05:22they have the right to do that.
01:05:24They can also, in some circumstances, do a reprogramming.
01:05:28And then the third option is to follow the procedures of the Impoundment Act that I'm sure you're aware of.
01:05:33So those are sort of the three options.
01:05:34That's my understanding.
01:05:35But just canceling outright is not following the law.
01:05:38That would depend, Senator, on whether there is some other plan to obligate those funds within the scope of the appropriation within the relevant fiscal year.
01:05:47I'm just, I'm not.
01:05:47I'm not aware of any.
01:05:49Just to basically pull in the plug on all these projects.
01:05:52It's very clear, Congress, we pass law, the appropriations are laws,
01:05:56and the president has to faithfully execute the laws of the land, and that's not happening.
01:06:02So my, again, Senator, my understanding is that DHS is following applicable laws,
01:06:06and if confirmed, that's what I would do.
01:06:07Mr. Rhodes, reports indicate that agencies across the federal government have procured Planeteers' technology
01:06:18to create a master database of Americans' personal data.
01:06:24I'm certainly alarmed by these reports to have the master database.
01:06:29I would suspect the chairman would be concerned about that as well.
01:06:33The potential disregard for the law as well as the privacy and civil liberties of Americans to have this large database.
01:06:40My question for you is, do you think it's appropriate for the federal government to purchase technology
01:06:44for the purpose of consolidating massive data about Americans?
01:06:50Senator, I appreciate the question.
01:06:52I don't have any knowledge of that database by Palantir.
01:06:55I would have to look into that.
01:06:57And if confirmed, how would you, when you look into that, would you have concerns,
01:07:02based on what I've just said?
01:07:04If confirmed, again, I would take a look into that.
01:07:08And like my colleagues, I would follow all the laws that are applicable.
01:07:12But I would have to take a look.
01:07:14Another question for you.
01:07:15Companies of current and former DOGE members have received hundreds of millions of dollars in federal contracts.
01:07:24However, agencies have refused to share information about these individuals
01:07:29and their particular involvement in the federal procurement and acquisition process.
01:07:35This certainly leaves open the potential for fraud, waste, abuse.
01:07:42My question for you is, if confirmed, will you commit to reviewing and providing this committee
01:07:46information about DOGE's involvement, specifically in federal procurement?
01:07:51Senator, thank you for the question.
01:07:53If confirmed, I will follow all conflict of interest regulations and laws.
01:07:58I've followed them my entire time in the military.
01:08:00And if confirmed, I will do the same.
01:08:02Well, specifically, what steps will you take to increase transparency into the acquisition process?
01:08:08Senator, I appreciate that question.
01:08:10I'm a transparent and direct individual.
01:08:12And so I believe that as we do contracts and federal procurement, those should be available
01:08:17to the public.
01:08:18What steps would you take, but specifically?
01:08:20So one of the steps, Senator, I would take is to ensure that the information is available
01:08:26following all regulations that are in place so that they get posted.
01:08:29There are systems that allow that information to be put out there that we have currently.
01:08:34And I would ensure that we continue to do so.
01:08:37Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
01:08:38Well, thank you all for appearing today.
01:08:41I think the hearing has gone very well.
01:08:42I think you can take the message back to the secretary that I think the country at large
01:08:48is very pleased with the control of the border.
01:08:50Amazing.
01:08:51It happened without legislation, without new appropriation.
01:08:53I understand there will be some new appropriation needed.
01:08:56I would also take back to the department, though, that your math doesn't add up on the wall.
01:09:01Forty-six point five billion for the wall.
01:09:04Currently, on the CBP website, it says it's costing about six point five million per mile.
01:09:10So if you do a thousand more miles, that's six point five billion.
01:09:13So you're asking for enough to do eight thousand miles.
01:09:16So it doesn't add up.
01:09:17It's also been noted that a third of the border is now under the control and surveillance of
01:09:23sonar towers that Andrew is putting up.
01:09:26I'm a big believer in that.
01:09:27I think it's actually a less expensive way.
01:09:29You do that and combine it with helicopters, you can probably patrol the border and you already
01:09:33are doing a good job now, but you can probably add another layer to it within months simply
01:09:38with the sonar towers and helicopters.
01:09:40So while I am for some more money, I think it's still asking for too much and the math doesn't
01:09:45add up.
01:09:45And most of that, you know, there's 1,200 miles left.
01:09:49We'll be lucky to put fence on a thousand.
01:09:51We're probably going to put fence on less than that.
01:09:53And we ought to be open-minded to other things like the sonar towers and other technologies.
01:09:59And some of that's pretty immediate, too.
01:10:00You don't have to wait years to build a wall.
01:10:02You immediately can put it up and begin defending the border.
01:10:05But by and large, I think the president's done a great job.
01:10:07And I think really whether you're Republican, independent or Democrat, people want criminals,
01:10:11you know, to be captured.
01:10:12They want to be safe.
01:10:13They're horrified by the people who've been killed by people who are illegally in the country.
01:10:17And even if only 1 percent of the people came in were criminals, there's like maybe 8 billion
01:10:21people came in in the last couple of years.
01:10:23That'd be 80,000 people roaming around that are criminals.
01:10:26And it probably would be 1 percent, you know.
01:10:29So I do compliment the president and the secretary for doing it.
01:10:33Still very interested in the speech thing.
01:10:34I hope you'll take that back.
01:10:36We're going to try to get that into law.
01:10:37What the president is doing to protect free speech is amazing, needed, shouldn't be partisan.
01:10:43But we would really like to make it part of law.
01:10:45But thank you for your testimony.
01:10:47The nominees have all filed responses to biographical and financial questionnaires.
01:10:51They've answered pre-hearing questions submitted by the committee and had their financial statements
01:10:55reviewed by the Office of Government Ethics.
01:10:59Additionally, the committee has received letters of support for the nominees.
01:11:02Without objection, this information will be made part of the hearing record.
01:11:05With the exception of the nominees' financial data, which are on file with the committee.
01:11:09The hearing record will remain open until noon tomorrow, June 6th.
01:11:13Thank you all for your time.
01:11:14The meeting is adjourned.