- 5/30/2025
This episode of India First focusses on India's demand for Pakistan to extradite UN-designated terrorists Hafiz Saeed and Masood Azhar, the masterminds behind the 26/11 Mumbai and Pulwama terror attacks.
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00:00Good evening, you're watching India First.
00:02Pakistan claims it wants dialogue with India
00:06and it's willing to have a dialogue on every issue including terror and water.
00:11Defence Minister Rajnath Singh today challenged Pakistan,
00:15saying if you're serious about dialogue,
00:17hand over the masterminds of 2611 Mumbai terror attacks and Pulwama terror attacks,
00:23Hafiz Mohammed Saeed and that maulana of terror, Masood Azhar.
00:27The ball now is squarely in Pakistan's court.
00:41India's ultimatum to terroristan.
00:44If Pakistan has taken care of it,
00:48then Hafiz Saeed and Masood Azhar should be able to supervise India's ultimatum.
00:55Hand over Hafiz Saeed and Masood Azhar.
01:00Inshallah, we will be able to destroy it.
01:04Pakistan protects the terror masterminds.
01:13India draws the red line.
01:16Will Pakistan hand over Hafiz Saeed and Masood Azhar?
01:27That's our top focus on India First.
01:36Hafiz Saeed and Masood Azhar.
01:38These are the real field marshals of Pakistan.
01:42Field marshal Hafiz Saeed and field marshal Masood Azhar.
01:46Because army generals come and go,
01:48these terror masterminds, they remain.
01:51And for far too long,
01:52India's permitted Pakistan to punch far above its weight.
01:55Its Prime Minister Narendra Modi,
01:57who's made it very clear,
01:59dialogue would only be about taking back Pakistan-occupied Jammu and Kashmir
02:03and also on terror.
02:06Shavas Sharif, after that unbearable pain that he's suffering
02:09of 13 Pakistan Air Force bases and radar stations being targeted
02:13after nine terror camps,
02:15including the ones at Mureetke and Bahawalpur being hit,
02:18is now talking about peace and dialogue.
02:20But does Pakistan come with a clean hand?
02:24Will Pakistan hand over field marshal Hafiz Saeed and Masood Azhar?
02:29We discuss.
02:31I'm Gaurav Savant.
02:32As always, let's get started with the headlines on India First.
02:40Prime Minister Narendra Modi reiterates,
02:42Operation Sindur is still not over.
02:45Says India will drag every Pakistani terrorist out of their hideout.
02:50Prime Minister Modi meets Pehelgaam victim Shubham Dvivedi's family in Kanpur.
02:55Union Home Minister Amit Shah meets victims of Pakistani shelling in Punsh,
03:04visits the Gurdwara that was hit along the line of control.
03:08Amit Shah says Pakistan is a coward that attacked innocents
03:13after its terror bases were demolished by India.
03:16Politics escalates over Operation Sindur.
03:24Telangana Chief Minister Revant Reddy asks,
03:26how many Rafal fighter jets were downed by Pakistan?
03:29BJP hits back, says Congress sympathizes with Pakistan.
03:33In a historic first, 17 women cadets graduate from the National Defence Academy.
03:46Big turning point for gender equality and national defence.
03:51India's GDP growth slows to 6.5%.
04:00In February 2025, January to March quarter,
04:06growth beats estimates at 7.5%.
04:08So, India made one thing very clear.
04:19Terror and talks cannot happen simultaneously.
04:21They don't go hand in hand.
04:23Neither will blood and water flow together.
04:27These are two red lines India has drawn for Pakistan.
04:30Now, there is the clear red line on terror.
04:34Union Defence Minister Rajnath Singh today insisted,
04:37if Pakistan is serious about talks with India,
04:40if Pakistan is serious about dialogue,
04:43then the masterminds of 2611 Mumbai terror attacks
04:47and the Pehlgaam terror attacks,
04:49along with Pulwama, Hafiz Saeed and Masood Azhar,
04:53should be handed over to India.
04:56Now, he insists that these are global UN-designated terrorists.
05:00They're globally designated as terrorists,
05:02but they get patronage in Pakistan.
05:06The big question is,
05:08will these Nishane Pakistan or Nishane Terroristan
05:13be handed over to India?
05:23Defence Minister Rajnath Singh once again makes it unequivocally clear.
05:28India will only engage in dialogue with Pakistan on two issues.
05:34Terrorism and return of Pakistan-occupied Kashmir.
05:38Rajnath Singh was speaking from INS Vikrant,
05:42India's first indigenously built aircraft carrier.
05:45The visit comes weeks after the Indian Navy's strategic carrier battle group,
05:52led by Vikrant, played a decisive role in Operation Sindhu.
05:55The Northern-Santis,
05:57the
06:01Nishane War,
06:02the
06:05Nishane War and
06:06the
06:07Nishane War
06:08the
06:09Nishane War
06:10the
06:10Nishane War
06:12the
06:12Nishane War
06:14Then, in Arab Shaghar, you had a major maritime domain awareness
06:20and a major maritime awareness of the Pakistani Navy
06:24and the Pacific Ocean.
06:28The Crown Carrier Battle Group has also given us
06:32the purpose of the Shamtag.
06:36What truly grabbed eyeballs was his direct message
06:40to India's rogue neighbour.
06:43He further told the aggressor nation to stop playing the victim card
07:00and demanded that Pakistan hand over UN-designated terrorists
07:05Hafiz Saeed and Masood Azhar to India.
07:13So, Hafiz Saeed and Masood Azhar just want to be able to overcome the violence against them
07:20so that they should be safe with them.
07:24If they should be safe with them, they don't need to tell me.
07:29Lashkar-e-Tayba chief Hafiz Saeed was the mastermind of the 2000 Chittisinghpura massacre,
07:35the 2001 parliament attack and the 2006 Mumbai serial train blast.
07:40He also orchestrated the 2611 Mumbai terror attacks that took 166 innocent lives.
07:47One of the attackers, Ajmal Kassab, was caught alive and later executed in 2012.
07:54Hafiz Saeed's Lashkar was also behind the Pehalgaam massacre
07:58where 25 tourists were killed solely on the basis of religion
08:02and a local was killed for fighting the terrorist.
08:05On the other hand, Jaish-e-Mohammad chief Masood Azhar is responsible for the 2001 parliament attack,
08:12the Pathankot airbase attack and the Pulwama terror attack of 2019
08:16where a suicide bomber targeted a CRPF convoy resulting in the deaths of 40 personnel.
08:23Both these UN-designated terrorists have repeatedly attacked India
08:27under the protection and patronage of Pakistan.
08:30India has sent a clear and uncompromising message both to the world and to Pakistan
08:37that any act of terror will be met with a decisive response.
08:41People have seen a war-working attack in Iran
08:43who was killed and tore down the battlefield.
08:44And they don't stand in any kind of claims,
08:45operation Sindhur has now steamed off.
08:51Operation Sindhur has now sold.
08:52Operation Sindhur is still there.
08:57Operation Sindhur has now been ended.
09:02Operation Sindhur will become the norm, not the exception.
09:09Will Pakistan fall in line or will it resort to its old terror games again?
09:15Bureau Report, India Today.
09:21Conventional wisdom is you never trust Pakistan.
09:24In fact, General N.C. Vij, former Chief of Army Staff, will join us in about 25 minutes from now.
09:31And he will explain why in his long military experience, it's always better never to trust Pakistan.
09:38But then Pakistan's current Prime Minister, Shabash Sharif, he says for peace, they want dialogue and they're willing to talk terror, water and other issues that will lead to stability.
09:49Listen in to Shabash Sharif, I'll get you more on the story.
09:52We are ready to talk for the sake of peace on water issue with a neighbor.
10:06However, we are ready to talk to promote trade and also counter-terrorism if they are serious.
10:18But if they choose to remain aggressor, then we shall defend our territory and our country like we have done a few days ago by the grace of God.
10:33But if they accept my offer of peace, then we will show that we really want peace seriously and sincerely.
10:46So, three issues he talks about, water, trade and terror.
10:53But what's India saying? Hand over Hafiz Saeed and Masood Azhar.
10:57That's the first thing that India expects Pakistan to do.
11:00But the big question is, will Pakistan's Army Chief Asim Munir hand over his crown jewels to India?
11:07Joining me on India first is Telak Devashar, former member of the National Security Advisory Board.
11:12He's an author of multiple books on Pakistan and was Special Secretary in RAW.
11:17General Satish Dua, former Kashmir Corps commander, former Chief of Integrated Defense Staff.
11:22And Dr. Shaldi Chawla is a distinguished fellow at the Center for Air Pass Studies.
11:26And Mr. Telak Devashar, if I could, Hafiz Saeed and Masood Azhar, they are actually Nishane Pakistan.
11:34I mean, they symbolize Pakistan.
11:36They're the pride of Pakistan Army.
11:38Will Pakistan Army ever hand over their crown jewels to India?
11:48Sir, I think you're on mute.
11:51Request you to unmute yourself, go on, sir.
11:53I'm so sorry.
11:54Thank you for having me on the show.
11:56And good evening to my fellow panelists.
11:58The short answer to your question is certainly not.
12:00And I'll just draw your attention to a function that was held two days ago, in which the terrorists of Pakistan, including the deputy leader of the Lashkar and the speaker of the Punjab Assembly, were in full display addressing spewing venom against India.
12:21If the Pakistan Army allows a function like that to take place openly, so soon after Operation Sindhu, you can well imagine what their attitude, you know, the brazenness with which this was on display.
12:36So you can imagine what their reaction will be about handing over Hafiz Saeed and Masood Azhar.
12:43And in fact, the statement that Prime Minister Shabash Sharif made, I mean, you know, you could see from his body language that he himself was not convinced of what he was saying or talking about peace to India.
12:57You know, the broken voice, the almost crying tone as if he was being forced to say that.
13:03So they're not serious at all.
13:04You cannot trust Pakistan, you cannot trust any proposal coming out of Pakistan and India has made it very clear that we'll talk on water when you stop terrorism and if a conversation is to be held, it'll only go to be on POK and on terrorism.
13:21And the Defence Minister has now further clarified that we can talk to you on terrorism, provided you hand over these two masterminds to us.
13:29I don't see this going anywhere because Pakistan is not serious.
13:32OK, Jal Dua, there's an old saying in Hindi, Na Nauman Tel Hoga, Na Radha Na Chegi.
13:40So is this an impossible condition for Pakistan to meet that and there will be no forward movement?
13:48Of course, it's impossible from the Pakistani perspective.
13:50You and I as Indians, I mean, it's the most basic thing we would expect from a civilised neighbour to hand over terrorists on their soil.
13:57But from the Pakistani perspective, it's almost as if Rajnath Singh has asked for both Jain Lasse Munir's kidneys.
14:07I think the Defence Minister, Mr Rajnath Singh has made a very valid and a pertinent point because we said Indus Water Treaty is suspended until Pakistan adjures violence, terrorist violence.
14:28So where does that lead them?
14:31So if they want water, they have to talk to us with some proof moving forward, moving ahead with the issue of terrorist violence.
14:41Now, you see, we have seen that in Pakistan, these terrorists are not non-state actors.
14:48They are actually instruments of state policy.
14:50And the only other thing I'll say is that these terrorists, these terrorist leaders, not only they have the state security, they actually have state honours nowadays.
15:03The event that Diluc mentioned and also the fact that on the funeral of some of the top leaders and relatives of Masood Azhar, the Pakistan army brass, everyone was there.
15:16So, under these conditions, I think it's a very pertinent point being made.
15:22I don't know about what, obviously, it won't happen like Diluc says, but we have made our bid.
15:28If they really want to prove their stand, if they want to show that they are sincere about letting off terrorism as a state policy,
15:36they will have to show something, they'll have to wear a sincerity on their sleeve.
15:41You know, Dr. Chawla, Prime Minister Narendra Modi made it very clear that India does not distinguish between state and non-state actors,
15:50and especially after the funeral at Bahawalpur and Mureetke, and the pictures that you're seeing on your television screen of Talha Saeed, a designated terrorist,
16:00Hafiz Abdul Rauf, again a designated terrorist, and political leaders in Pakistan, including the Speaker of the Punjab Provincial Assembly,
16:11hugging, sitting together, and we'll be playing out all those pictures.
16:14We'll also play out those funeral pictures.
16:16Pakistan army generals in uniform being there, laying a wreath and being a part of the namaz-e-janazah.
16:21But, in your appreciation, if Pakistan were to even think about handing over Masood Azhar and Hafiz Saeed,
16:30wouldn't there be civil war in Pakistan's Punjab province?
16:34And as many say, these terrorists are the state in Pakistan.
16:39They are the, thank you Gaurav, they are the state in Pakistan, yes, you can say that.
16:45They are an extension of the Pakistan military, a part, very much part of the state apparatus,
16:50where they don't only have been, not only have been conducting terrorism, but also have been fighting elections.
16:55They have been given, you know, they are thriving in the mainland of Pakistan.
16:59And, obviously, they have this big facade of running the social work,
17:05which obviously generates a lot of income for them also in the form of donations.
17:11So, yes, they do have the public support.
17:13And what Mr. Diweshir talked about, you know, the celebrations yesterday.
17:18So, Mr. PM Modi has very much, very clearly said that we will evaluate Pakistan's behavior.
17:24And where is that behavior when we have these visuals of these cremations,
17:28where DGISPR is reiterating Hafiz Saeed's words on water.
17:33So, there is very much this, you know, very strong linkage,
17:36where I don't see Pakistan going against this at all.
17:40And if we have to learn our lessons, we should see it.
17:43Pakistan, while fighting the war on terror and taking $32 billion of aid from United States,
17:49still had Osama bin Laden in the mainland.
17:52So, I don't think, I mean, we need to really think about it, that will Pakistan do it or not.
17:57I don't think that's going to change with Pakistan.
17:59You know, for those who are naive, you're absolutely right, ma'am.
18:03But for those who are naive and those who believe in Aman ki aasha with Pakistan,
18:07and I'm surprised they do because Pakistan only believes in killing us.
18:12Mr. Diweshir, how important are terrorists like Hafiz Saeed and Masood Azhar for the Pakistani state?
18:18Now, in the terrorist, you know, Terroristan, Pakistan shouldn't be called anything else.
18:26In the Terroristan warrant of precedence, do they come before or after Aasem Muneer?
18:35You know, what an interesting question.
18:38In reality, you know, the Pakistan army will take precedence, but they are not far behind.
18:49You know, Masood Azhar and Mr. Saeed, Hafiz Saeed, are not very far behind because the kind of respect,
18:59the kind of protection that they get, the way they are defended, and the way they are escorted around.
19:09You see, there are two things which, if you permit me time,
19:13Masood Azhar has written a very long book, in fact, two-volume study on jihad.
19:20And even though the conventional wisdom is that jihad can only be declared by the state,
19:25he is the guy who came up with this thesis that individuals can also declare jihad.
19:31So, he was very useful in radicalizing a large number of youth in Pakistan
19:37by telling them that you can fight your own jihad.
19:41Masood Azhar, because of the ideological underpinnings of the Rashkar, which is Ehle Hadis,
19:51they know that they can never compromise with India.
19:54You see, Dioband, because it has center in India, there is a feeling that Diobandis will have some sympathy towards India.
20:01But Masood Azhar and his Jais and his Rashkar will never compromise or never have any sympathy for India.
20:08So, for these ideological reasons, these are the crown jewels of the Pakistan army.
20:14They will never compromise with them.
20:17You know, they will never allow India anywhere near these guys,
20:21and there is no question of their handing over.
20:23So, in terms of precedence, they may come just after Aasem Muneer,
20:27but they are extremely important for the Pakistan army.
20:31So, interesting.
20:32So, if I were to see the warrant of precedence of Terroristan,
20:35there is Field Marshal Aasem Muneer, then there is Field Marshal Hafiz Saeed,
20:38and then there is Field Marshal Masood Azhar.
20:40You know, because generals may come and go.
20:43General Dua, generals, of course, in Pakistan, some go only after there is a box of exploding mangoes in their aircraft.
20:51But in other instances, they want to stay on as long as they can.
20:55But generals may come and go.
20:58Field Marshal Hafiz Saeed stays forever.
21:01He is almost like station commander of Lahore.
21:04And, you know, Masood Azhar is like station commander of Bahawalpur.
21:08Yes, you are right to say what you said.
21:16Let me try and put it in another way.
21:18You know, the importance of these terrorist leaders that we are discussing today,
21:22and vis-a-vis military.
21:25When we talk about the Pakistan deep state,
21:28who are we talking about?
21:30I think what we are talking about is the military,
21:34the top terrorist leaders,
21:38and surprisingly, I don't think it is the clergy which is anywhere in the deep state.
21:46It is the criminals.
21:49There is a big mafia of drugs that controls the drug business.
21:54And, I mean, Dawal Ram is one of them, and there are many others.
21:58So, I think when you talk about the deep state that actually runs the affairs,
22:04and actually decides what's to be done and what's not to be done,
22:06the political veneer is very, very, it's a very thinly veiled political veneer.
22:10That deep state consists of the military, the terrorist, and the criminal underworld nexus.
22:18And that is the real Pakistan.
22:20Everybody else is incidental.
22:23Everybody else really doesn't matter, Dr. Chawla.
22:25Right now, we are told Pakistan is on edge.
22:28Those are reports that are emerging even in media and social media in Pakistan.
22:32Mock drills have been announced in India once again,
22:35and Pakistan fears additional strikes.
22:37But let me play the devil's advocate.
22:41Knowing Pakistan's desperation,
22:44will they seek to strike India once again through these terrorists,
22:48Hafiz Saeed and Masood Azhar,
22:50like they have, incidentally, in the past,
22:53even when tensions between the two countries were very high?
22:56I think they definitely would seek to.
23:02The timing, I'm not saying it would happen now,
23:05because I think some time we would see to pass by.
23:08But definitely Pakistan would want to kind of re-establish that whole domain,
23:14that yes, we will conduct the terrorist strike.
23:17And the fact that, you know, we have managed to dismantle a large infrastructure of terrorists.
23:26So definitely, this will be for the sake of appeasement of these,
23:30you know, militant leaders also, which we have been talking about.
23:33But let me add just a very small point here, Gaurav,
23:36to the point about, you know, terrorism and will it go or not.
23:39I think for Pakistan, the use of terror is very important,
23:44whether it is India, Afghanistan, or it is within.
23:47You have not seen a single issue which has been resolved within Pakistan peacefully.
23:53See how they treat the balooch, see how they treat the pathan.
23:55So it is, use of terror basically is something which is very ingrained in the state policy.
24:01And I don't see that moving away, even if, you know,
24:04if they are on the edge in terms of their military or economy.
24:07So yes, they would be thinking, but not, I don't see it happening very soon.
24:12Okay, because Mr. Devesher, I want to take your mind back to Operation Parakram.
24:16And the, you know, after parliament attack,
24:19Pakistan that time feared that Indian army may strike.
24:24And many, we are told, and General Widge will join us in just a moment,
24:26we are told that the army, at least twice, was on the verge of going inside and punishing Pakistan.
24:33But in midst of all of this, Pakistani terrorists attacked the Kaluchak military station
24:39where they massacred, massacred over 30 Indian families,
24:44including young toddlers and military families.
24:47Army officers and jawaans' children were killed during Kaluchak military station attack.
24:53They did that after parliament attack.
24:55And we did nothing.
24:57Is that still playing on Pakistani mind?
24:59Or now they realize that there isn't a Natal Bihari Vajpayee or a Manmohan Singh.
25:03There is a Narendra Modi.
25:06Certainly.
25:07I think they have realized, ever since 2016,
25:10when we responded to the Uri attack by a surgical strike,
25:14they realized that this is a different India.
25:15This is an India that has the political will to punish terrorism.
25:21And it has the political will to ignore the Pakistan's nuclear bluff.
25:28You know, we've done it when we did it in Balakot.
25:30And now we've done it decisively that forget your nuclear weapons.
25:35We are not going to be phased by them.
25:36And we will hit you where it hurts you most.
25:40I mean, the air bases that have been taken off,
25:42which housed strategic assets and strategic ammunition,
25:46has been taken out.
25:47So, I think Pakistan is scared that India, A, has the political will
25:53to hit us for any terror incident,
25:56will continue hitting us and will attack us irrespective of the…
26:01You see, all this while Pakistan's doctrine of terrorism
26:04was premised that India will not hit back
26:08because of this nuclear blackmail.
26:10They painted themselves as an irrational country when it comes to India.
26:14And we will use nuclear weapons.
26:17You know, that pow-paw-ke bomb that we had.
26:21We have called their bluff.
26:22In fact, they have to now go back to the drawing board.
26:25Because the nuclear threat, nuclear blackmail, the nuclear shield,
26:29whatever you want to call it, no longer exists.
26:33What do they do now?
26:33That's music to my ears.
26:34To hear Pakistan is scared is music.
26:37Because for far too long, we've bled.
26:40And sadly, I've covered some of the worst terror attacks,
26:44including Kaluchak, on ground.
26:46And it's truly painful.
26:47Stay with me for a moment.
26:48I have to quickly cut across to Copenhagen.
26:51You know, this India's multi-pronged offensive,
26:53including the political and diplomatic strikes
26:56to expose Pakistan's state-sponsored terror.
26:59That's on.
27:00And joining me from Copenhagen is Shiv Sena,
27:03UBT MP and Deputy Leader in the Rajasabha, Priyanka Chaturvedi.
27:07Priyanka, welcome.
27:08You were in Rome just a short while back.
27:11You're in Copenhagen now.
27:12How is Europe reacting to India's response to Pakistani terror, ma'am?
27:18See, whatever we have met, the people we've met,
27:20whether it's the think tanks, whether it is the media,
27:23whether it is the government officials,
27:24whether it is the parliamentarians,
27:26they're absolutely unequivocal in support of India
27:29and India's right to respond as far as terrorist attacks are concerned.
27:33They're also very clear, which is something that we have been saying,
27:36that it is time that we held Pakistan accountable.
27:40India has been fighting this war over decades.
27:42We have been fighting Pakistan over decades.
27:44But the real trouble that would be soon hitting their door
27:47would be the radicalization and fundamentalist mentality
27:51that is coming out of Pakistan.
27:52The roots of every terror activities and fundamentalism
27:56is emanating out of Pakistan.
27:58So they also are concerned about how it will, you know,
28:03work out in Europe.
28:04But are they waking up to the magnitude of the crisis
28:10or do they still think that it's happening in some corner
28:13and they are still safe?
28:15No, no, absolutely not.
28:17Let me say this very clearly,
28:18that they do understand the problem of terrorism emanating out of Pakistan.
28:22They've also, we have given them ample amount of evidence
28:25to show that how Pakistan continuously trains, arms,
28:29and also protects terrorists.
28:30And let's not forget, right from Osama bin Laden to Hafiz Saeed to JEM to Al-Qaeda,
28:35everybody has found training camps coming out of Pakistan.
28:38So they are very well aware of the threat.
28:40The need right now is to prioritize it and to hold Pakistan accountable.
28:45So there is a very clear understanding, even amongst the members of parliament,
28:48and I'm sure they had their constituencies,
28:49and their constituents were concerned about the kind of radicalization
28:53that is, you know, erupting out here.
28:55So we are very positive, and they have been extremely positive in support
28:59of everything that India does to fight terrorism.
29:02But are these just words of sympathy?
29:06Or, you know, when you say that there is need to hold Pakistan accountable,
29:11what are tangible measures that can be taken?
29:15Are those also being discussed, you know, for example,
29:18sanctions on Pakistan?
29:19Or are they, you know, are they surprised by the magnitude of Indian response
29:24targeting nine terror camps, and then targeting 13 air bases and radar stations?
29:29Or are they telling us exercise restraint?
29:32Is anyone telling Pakistan, stop terror?
29:36Who do they talk to in Pakistan?
29:38Again, for anybody right now,
29:40they also understand the facts on ground that there is nobody they can engage with in Pakistan.
29:44Pakistan is a military state,
29:46a military state which is protecting its terrorists, not its civilians.
29:49Let's be very clear.
29:51They also, let me also put it very categorically,
29:54they have no questions as per whatever action that India has taken.
30:00They are also very clear that we have been very careful about the strikes
30:05that we have done on their terror camps.
30:07Again, we have reiterated that these are terror camps designated by the United Nations.
30:11It's not like Indians are talking about they being terrorist camps.
30:14Murid Keh, Muzaffar Nagar, etc.
30:17All of these are terror camps raised out of Bhawalpur,
30:21are all terror camps which are designated by the United Nations.
30:23Also, we have been very clear that lots of these terrorists,
30:26again, I shall repeat, 52 terrorists,
30:29are the ones which are recognized by the United Nations as living in Pakistan.
30:34So, I do not see any sympathy coming from any of the parliamentarians or people we have met for Pakistan.
30:41They also understand the huge challenge that they will be facing sooner or later,
30:46something that India has been facing over the decades and India has responded to.
30:49Oh, absolutely.
30:51But, you know, so another team, Asaduddin Oesi, for example,
30:54he sought global help in a way to put Pakistan back on the FATF grey list.
31:02Is Europe receptive to that idea?
31:04You know, you've been speaking to several world leaders,
31:07whether in Rome or in Copenhagen and the next part of, you know, your delegation's visit.
31:13Are they on the same page on putting them on the FATF grey list
31:16or some kind of sanctions on Pakistan?
31:19Absolutely.
31:19This is a point we have been making,
31:21that the entire global narrative needs to understand,
31:24whether it is US, whether it's Europe,
31:26whether it is, you know, Middle East nations,
31:29whether it is African nations,
31:31all of them will sooner or later face this threat.
31:33So, we need to hold Pakistan to account.
31:35The IMF loans that are given to them,
31:37the FATF, grey listing them in FATF,
31:40is something that we have been putting on the table.
31:42And let's not forget, we are sitting in Copenhagen today.
31:45Denmark is part of the UNSC right now.
31:47Denmark is also going to become the, you know,
31:50take the chairmanship of the European Union from July 1st onwards.
31:55So, that is going to be an important narrative that Denmark will probably take forward.
31:59And they do understand the challenges that India is facing
32:01and Europe is likely to face and is also currently facing.
32:04Let's not forget these,
32:06the radicalization that we see in the Western European region
32:09is something which is a tangible threat for them as well.
32:11And their peaceful coexistence as well.
32:14Oh, absolutely.
32:15Priyanka Chaturvedi for joining me here on India Today from Copenhagen.
32:19Many thanks.
32:21And Europe should actually realize this.
32:23I was in London in 2005.
32:26The 7-7 London bombing, we were covering that.
32:29And all the 7-7 London bombers had trained in Pakistan.
32:34They were Pakistani-origin British nationals who carried out that terror attack.
32:40Wherever there's terror, it's usually traced back to Pakistan.
32:44And the world needs to wake up.
32:45Joining me now on this India Today special broadcast is General Nirmal Chandra Vij,
32:51former Chief of the Army Staff General Vij was Director General of Military Operations
32:56during Op Vijay in Kargil.
32:59He was Vice Chief of Army Staff during Op Parakram
33:02after the Parliament was attacked in December 2001.
33:05And subsequently, as Chief of the Army Staff,
33:08that's where the line-of-control fencing had taken place.
33:12General, always a privilege to have you on this broadcast.
33:16Welcome on India Today, sir.
33:17Thank you very much, Gaurav.
33:19It's indeed very sweet of you to get me over to your studio.
33:24General, your appreciation, how things have changed
33:28from Op Vijay to Op Parakram, now to Op Sindur?
33:33A lot has changed.
33:35A lot has changed, both in terms of the political will, their doctrine.
33:40There's a big doctrinal shift from a strategic restraint now to a controlled escalation.
33:49Earlier, we were tied down with strategic restraint like it happened during Kargil, as you know.
33:53And militarily also, we have come a long, long way, technically.
33:59We are far superior to what we were in my years of 2003-4.
34:03So, let me take you back to the time when you were Director General of Military Operations during Op Vijay in Kargil.
34:11The strategic restraint that you mentioned, the Air Force was told not to cross the line of control, not to hit across.
34:17And now, whether it's after Pulwama, when Balakot Air Force went and hit across,
34:24or now Op Sindur, where Air Force and missiles went and hit across.
34:28The changes that you notice in terms of technology and in terms of the higher direction of war.
34:35You know, if we had done that during Kargil or during 2611, would that have sent some message to Pakistan not to escalate?
34:43Yes, I think it's a big change because if strategic restraint was not there and not crossing the line of control was not the criteria,
34:54we perhaps wouldn't have gone to Kargil, first of all, and attacked uphill straight towards the enemy.
35:01We would have taken some other areas first and then come to Kargil.
35:04So, there's a big change on that.
35:06Secondly, even, you'll be surprised, not only the Air Force was not to cross the line of control,
35:12even our patrols were not to cross the line of control.
35:14So, the tactical information which you wanted about the enemy, even that got restricted because of that.
35:21So, not changed.
35:22The government's thinking has changed.
35:23And now, we have given a very clear message to Pakistan that, look, wherever you are, wherever your terrorists are,
35:29we will chase them however deep inside Pakistan they may be.
35:34On any corner of Pakistan, they may be, they will not be left alone.
35:38And anytime, at our will, we will go after them.
35:42Sir, in your book, Alone in the Ring, you've mentioned about the problems, you know, that had been faced at that point of time.
35:50You know, what can you tell us about the problems that the army faced because of that strategic restraint?
35:58During Kargil, during Op Parakram and even, you know, subsequently, like 26-11 Mumbai terror attacks, for example.
36:06You see, I'll take the Kargil first.
36:09As I mentioned earlier also in my statement, you do not attack a target uphill.
36:16You will come from the top to down.
36:18Number one, you will not attack a target to which there is only one approach.
36:23You know, that becomes very difficult to attack in the mountains.
36:27We would have done it much differently, tactically, and also, even in planning, we perhaps wouldn't have gone to Kargil State.
36:35We would have gone to some other target, and from there approached Kargil from a flank.
36:39That we would have done.
36:41During Prakram, unfortunately, the army got ready by middle of January.
36:47Actually, twice we returned from the brink.
36:49First, when General Padmanabhan, who was the chief, he announced in the middle of January that we are ready now for war, and we are ready to go in.
36:57And we waited for the go-ahead from the government, but the government didn't give a go-ahead.
37:03Second time, when Kaluchak camp was attacked, and there were 23 women and children were killed.
37:10And that was the time when the entire country was really up in the arms and very, very annoyed.
37:15But we didn't get a go-ahead.
37:17So, these were the limitations of Prakram as to what the government had in their mind.
37:23They didn't share with us, because when the chiefs were told to deploy, they asked as to what is their military aid, which would be a normal question, and which stands to logic.
37:33And they were told, you first deploy, and then we let you know.
37:37And unfortunately, that communication never came to us.
37:40Maybe the government, in their mind, had made up their own thought process that it is perhaps not good to stumble into a war just to assuage the public feeling.
37:53Maybe. I am guessing, because I don't know for sure.
37:56And secondly, there is a statement by Mr. Jaswant Singh, which he wrote in his book, that the biggest problem which he faced was to convince his three chiefs about the value of strategic restraint.
38:10Now, that itself is very indicative of their thought process.
38:14So, you see, Prakram was an exercise where we deployed in such a big way, where perhaps we missed out a good opportunity to sort out Pakistan once for all.
38:24And in your assessment, we were in a position to sort out Pakistan in 2002.
38:30And what does sort out Pakistan mean, sir?
38:32Yeah, Saudi Arabia or Pakistan means taking those areas which were geographically very important for us, and which would have been hurting them all along.
38:41And it doesn't mean the entire territorial capture, but certainly the strategically important areas, take them into our position, so that we can reach out to them anytime, which we wanted.
38:53So, are you of the opinion that the thinking of Prime Minister Narendra Modi is very different from the thinking of then Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, or earlier then Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee?
39:06I am talking about both Parakram and 2611 Mumbai terror attacks, sir.
39:10You know, it is very difficult for me, and I am not in a position to comment on the Prime Ministers.
39:14But surely, they had their own viewpoint, and the governments, you know, when they take a decision, they don't only think what the military thinks.
39:23They have many other points to think.
39:25In Prakram, I think they were feeling that they were not economically sound enough, and they wanted to project themselves as a responsible power, and a power which could be trusted.
39:39And nuclear had just come in.
39:41Maybe the nuclear fear was also there.
39:42Yes, the President, the government, and the Prime Minister, they have taken a very strong stand, no doubt.
39:49And that you can make out from each time we have reacted to Pakistani actions.
39:54We have gone to this crossing of the Yellow Sea first, which we did.
39:59Next time, we went to Balakot.
40:01Now, we have multiplied it nine times.
40:03We have attacked nine targets inside Pakistan, and not only inside Pakistan, POK.
40:09We went into Punjab, hotline of Punjab.
40:11So, there is a difference in our thinking.
40:14And it is, I think, also related to our level of preparation, and level of our advancement in the armed forces, and also our status in the world.
40:23That's a very interesting point to make.
40:26But if I could draw you back into that conversation about the nuclear bogey that Pakistan has.
40:32Because even during Aup Parakram, and especially around the time of Kaluchak, and for the benefit of our viewers, Pakistani terrorists, dressed in military fatigues, attacked a military station near Jammu called Kaluchak.
40:46They entered that military station, and they massacred Indian army families.
40:52I've covered Kaluchak, and it was heartbreaking.
40:55Little children were killed by Pakistani terrorists.
40:58And everyone thought that India will punish Pakistan.
41:02But then Pakistan, it did some, you know, nuclear-capable missile tests.
41:07And we did not go in.
41:08Was that the fear?
41:09Pakistan's nuclear bogey, Jalvij?
41:11Yes, the nuclear bogey stayed with us.
41:15But now the Prime Minister in his doctrine has made it very clear that your nuclear bluff has been caused, and we will not accept it.
41:23But having said that, I will also say that this is up to a certain level.
41:29If you don't cross their red lines, perceived red lines, I do not know they have not been defined.
41:34But their general, Kidwai, had once mentioned, who was the director, SPD, DG, SPD, that there are four lines, territorial loss, the economic strangulation, destruction of their forces, and political destabilization.
41:49If we don't cross those lines, it is okay.
41:51We can fight up to that.
41:53So keep the threshold at that level, where they are not constrained into survival mode.
42:00If we do that, I think we should go ahead, like we have done now, and the Prime Minister has rightly called, that your nuclear bluff will not be accepted.
42:10Sir, I also want to now take you, draw you back to the time when you were Director General of Military Operations.
42:17During the Kargil War, the Americans, the Pakistanis, I'm told, shot American intervention, and there was a ceasefire, and you met your Pakistani counterpart.
42:26You know, I was reporting from Kargil that time, and that was really big.
42:30What was your meeting with the Pakistani DGMO like?
42:33Can you describe to us, what are these DGMO-level talks like?
42:37Gaurav, it was, I've never been to Pakistan, and now do I have any intention.
42:42But it was a good exposure for me to talk to the Pakistani DGMO, who was quite a suave gentleman.
42:52But, having said that, but I will lay emphasis on.
42:56Once I asked him during our Tuesday conversations, as to where was he missing in the previous week's conversation.
43:03And his reply was, So, telling lies is part of their ecosystem and their ethos.
43:18I will now take you to the DGMO meeting, which was held in Khasa, next to Amritsar, a small town, on our side of the border.
43:28And during the conference, I asked him two questions.
43:33I said, look, throughout our discussions, you've been telling me these are Kashmiri freedom fighters.
43:39How will you control their movement now?
43:41Because you are supposed to control their movement backward.
43:44If they are Kashmiri freedom fighters, how are you in touch with them?
43:48So, to which he had no reply, he kept quiet, obviously.
43:52But they were obviously controlling them, and these were their people.
43:55NLA people and the other people were only as voters and all that being used.
44:00Secondly, I told him, look, I am carrying the entire video photographs of all your people who have been killed,
44:08and whom we have given ceremonial funerals, proper burials.
44:13And you will like to see that, and record that it will be good for the parents of those children who have died.
44:20And he said, no, we are not.
44:22Then I said, okay, if they are not yours, perfectly all right.
44:25But during the tea break, he took me to one side and said, sir, why are you doing this?
44:30Now, give me, you have to be honest with me.
44:32So, that is how the Pakistanis are.
44:34And I will give you one more example, if you permit me.
44:37Go ahead, sir.
44:39During, after we took 0.5140, I told him, look, we have got a lot of your maps and identity disks and all that,
44:48which are marked, maps are marked with the objectives.
44:52So, what do you say to that?
44:54His only reply was, one word reply, amok.
44:57So, they know what is the truth, but they will not tell the truth.
45:05That is the way they are built.
45:06And to my mind, Pakistanis are very incorrigible, keeping India destabilized,
45:13keeping India always occupied with the strategy of thousand cuts is their very main motive.
45:19And also, perhaps, that is one factor which keeps their country united.
45:23And tell me this, sir, would you trust the Pakistanis, you know, their army or their government,
45:31if they were to say that we will not spread terror in India, can you trust a Pakistani?
45:35No, I will not.
45:36I will not trust them under any circumstances, because I still remember this conversation with Dr. Babon Singh,
45:46when that government came into power, they were wanting to, as India has always desired,
45:53to settle into some kind of a peace settlement with Pakistan.
45:57They wanted to have a pullback from Siachen up to a certain level,
46:02in terms of kilometers, that we go back five kilometers, they go back five kilometers.
46:07I told him, I said, sir, it's not possible, because five kilometers on our side to be covered
46:14will take us more than a day and day and a half.
46:17For them, they will be there in one hour's time, because they have a road connectivity on the other side.
46:23And he said, why are you being so hawkish?
46:26I said, I'm not being hawkish.
46:27I'm being professionally honest with you, because of the reason that the infiltration is still taking place.
46:33And it cannot take place unless the Pakistanis bring them to their forward posts,
46:39make them see the area ahead in the night, so that they get familiar with the area.
46:44That is number one.
46:45Number two, if you recall, when Prime Minister Bajpayee went to Pakistan on the famous Lahore bus yatra,
46:52peace yatra, that was the time when the Pakistanis were moving into Kargil very audaciously
46:58and trying to occupy our forward posts.
47:01If they can go up to that limit, how can you trust those Pakistanis?
47:05Never make that mistake.
47:06That is my suggestion to all my successors and the future planners.
47:11Never trust Pakistan.
47:12Is that what you're saying, sir?
47:14Never trust Pakistan.
47:15Never trust.
47:17Okay.
47:18Now, was Dr. Manmohan Singh keen to demilitarize from Siachan Glacier?
47:23Did he think that's like a peace offering India could make to Pakistan for peace in Kashmir?
47:27I don't think they were wanting to demilitarize because Siachan is far too important and objective
47:33and strategic, it has strategic value.
47:36But they wanted to pull back a little so that to reduce the tension between the two countries.
47:43And Pakistanis were very keen because for them it was very important.
47:46And also, if you will recall, the Pakistanis never told their own countrymen that they
47:52had lost Siachan Glacier.
47:54It has never been told to them.
47:56So, they also wanted some kind of an arrangement where they could save their face.
48:01Pakistan does not have the Siachan Glacier is the biggest truth and the lie that Pakistanis
48:07have never told their people.
48:08We are on Saltoro Ridgeline beyond the glacier.
48:12Sir, should we, you know, at whatever point of time have straightened out the LOC wherever
48:20we could have LOC border just so that we are in a stronger position?
48:26What are the guarantees that you think we want from Pakistan that we can then say, okay,
48:32we can have peace.
48:32But this is step one, step two, step three that Pakistan must do.
48:38You see, firstly, let's take the glacier itself.
48:42Imagine when the Chinese intrusion took place in eastern Ladakh, if Pakistanis were sitting
48:48in the Siachan Glacier, from there to link up with the DBO, which the Chinese would have
48:55tried, would have been pretty easy.
48:57And we would have been in a real strategic jam.
48:59So, no objective of that kind can be ever compromised or any relaxation given in that.
49:09Number two, even if we have to make any understanding with them, they are crossing the international
49:16border also.
49:17Yes.
49:17They are infiltrating across the international border also.
49:20After all, Jammu sector is international border, coming beyond the clue.
49:24So, I do not know.
49:26I have very grave doubts.
49:27I think we have to think of very many methods to make sure that those things are followed
49:34scrupulously by them before we can get to some understanding with them.
49:38And your appreciation of Raksha Mantri Rajnath Singh saying that one day POK will come back
49:44to us.
49:45You know, you've been a part of Dogra regiment.
49:47You know the lay of the land very well.
49:50You played a very critical role.
49:52You ensured that LC fencing took place all along that 740 kilometers at the line of control.
49:59Can we take Pakistan-occupied Kashmir back from Pakistan, including all the areas?
50:04I'll answer your questions in two parts, if you permit me.
50:07First, I'll take the line of control fence.
50:09It is actually not a fence.
50:11It is an anti-infiltration system.
50:14You know, it is an optical system and with all the sensors put ahead of it, behind it
50:22and the troops to guard it.
50:23So, it was a proper system.
50:25Because my experience as the DGMO and the YC was that whatever you may do, if they cross
50:31the line of control, then they get lost into the interland where they had a lot of sport.
50:36At that point of time, they may not have it today.
50:38So, the fence was constructed.
50:41That was one.
50:42Now, coming to the other aspect of the POK.
50:44Yes, POK is our national resolution of 1994 and we must get POK sometime.
50:52POK people are also quite fed up and they will perhaps like to join.
50:56But they will have also to make an effort.
50:58Now, there are two parts of this question which I can answer.
51:02One is, militarily we can capture POK?
51:05Yes, we can.
51:06Given the right amount of strength and the forces level available, we can face it and
51:11take it.
51:13But there are few limitations in this.
51:16At this point in time, I am not saying that will be 10 years down the time when India and
51:22Pakistan will not be perhaps in the same frame.
51:24People would have moved so far ahead that Pakistan won't be even visible in that frame.
51:29At that time, perhaps it can be done more easily.
51:32Right now, you know, the Chinese have interest.
51:36They are in Shakhsham Valley.
51:37They have CPEC, economic corridor running through it.
51:41They have invested over 50, 60 billion dollars there.
51:45And Pakistan is a proxy for them.
51:48They will safeguard Pakistan.
51:49So if we go into POK, they will also come in.
51:52That is one problem.
51:53Secondly, also, there's an issue of the nuclear threshold.
51:59Will we take Pakistan to that level of nuclear threshold where they will have no choice but
52:05to react?
52:06And the third thing is internationally also today, it is not easily acceptable to change
52:12boundaries by the use of force.
52:14Okay.
52:14So all these factors the government will have to take.
52:17As far as the army man is concerned, given the right amount of forces, the right amount
52:21of time, they will do the job.
52:24But the army alone doesn't fight the war.
52:27Wars are fought by the government and with all these considerations in mind.
52:32I will let that be the last word on this part of the show.
52:35General Vij, for joining me here on this India Today special broadcast.
52:38As always, many thanks, sir.
52:41Thank you, Gaurav.
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