- 30/05/2025
Councillor Garry Perry stepped down from the role of Leader of Walsall Council after struggling with bullying, harrasment and unwarranted hostility.
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00:01So obviously we're here with Gary Perry, Council of Gary Perry.
00:05So obviously you've had a big turnaround with being quite shocked with the stepping down.
00:12First of all I just want to ask what the public reception was to it.
00:15I know we've talked about it before with you seeing so many people coming out
00:19and so many Facebook messages of support.
00:21I mean how supportive has the community been in your own words?
00:26I'd say overwhelming.
00:28There is only two or three occasions when people say anything kind about anyone
00:33and that's usually when they retire they leave a good job or they die.
00:38And you don't always see the impact that you're having on people's lives
00:42or on the communities that you're involved with.
00:45And what I've seen in the last week or so has been completely overwhelming.
00:51And I think you take courage from it.
00:54I've been in a position where I've been contacted not just from residents of Pelsall,
01:01the wider areas of Walsall, community groups, the voluntary sector, organisations that I've been
01:06in support with over several years now.
01:09But even on that regional footprint as well, so the work that I've done in the last 12 months
01:14at the combined authority level has clearly resonated with leaders across the region
01:19of all political persuasions, including the mayor himself.
01:22And I've been quite humbled by that, but also encouraged the same.
01:27Absolutely. I know we talked about it before with the fact that we've seen, you know,
01:30counsellors from across the country like, you know, fellow counsellors from across the country
01:33coming to show the support for your decision and obviously standing true to your morals as well.
01:39I mean, that's going to, I know it was, I know it's going to have been a very hard decision to make
01:44to step down because of what happened.
01:46But I mean, that's going to be some show of huge, that's going to be quite, you know,
01:51building, like you sort of secure yourself in your decision.
01:54Yeah, it's never easy. And I always say, being a leader, it's more than the title.
02:03You know, and a lot of people make it about that title.
02:08I think there's still a number of people around who think that being leader is an ego trip
02:17and it's all about the authority that that gives them.
02:21And actually, I tried to lead with integrity and humanity.
02:27If you look at my five point plan from last year, one of them was leadership with empathy.
02:31So that's really understanding the lived experiences of the people we serve.
02:37Now, we will never always get it right. People will compliment.
02:41They'll also criticise, but that's the rough and smooth of what you're doing in public office.
02:46But you still have to show that you understand the problems that people are experiencing.
02:52And that politics is just a sideshow.
02:54And, you know, you get elected on a regular basis.
02:59And if you are serving your communities well, that should never be a problem, irrespective of the national position.
03:06Of course, sometimes you can't predict what will happen.
03:09But ultimately, when you are in office, as I always put it like this, being a councillor, leader of a council, cabinet member, chairman,
03:18whatever you're appointed to, it isn't a legal right. It's a privilege.
03:24And unfortunately for some, they've forgotten that.
03:29Was it a hard decision? Obviously it was a hard decision.
03:32Very hard decision. But I no believe it's the right one.
03:37I think there's a philosopher who once said that in any difficult decision that they made, they contradicted themselves at least three times to be sure that it was the right one.
03:49And I've gone through those contradictions in terms of, I've questioned myself.
03:54I have questioned, if you want to call it, you question your allegiance to, whether that's to individuals, whether that's to a cause or a political group in my case.
04:08But actually, irrespective of some of the noise that will still exist out there and that will continue, I know it was the right thing for me.
04:18But also to be in a position now where I can call out the sorts of behaviours that I've witnessed, which really heightened in the last 12 months of me becoming leader.
04:28I know at the moment we can't sort of mention any names or anything, but the stuff that you've witnessed, can we maybe get an example of maybe what?
04:41So attrition. You know in my statement I talked about political attrition and that's that wearing down, that grinding down of you as an individual.
04:53And there was a lot of that in terms of certain individuals think it is their right to consistently, and when I say consistently, on a regular basis question your decisions.
05:07Because there is an ulterior motive behind that, and when you are also not making changes for changes sake, but it is the right thing to do and then you're being undermined in that decision.
05:25Despite protestations to say we are not there to undermine you. This isn't about you as an individual, but clearly it is because they are motivated by stopping progress.
05:37And just because it is not the way that they would have done it. And so that was cementable as well, that was quite hard to deal with.
05:46And sometimes you try to remain focused on the role, focused on what you are trying to achieve as a leader with your cabinet colleagues as well and the wider membership.
05:57But when that is there, that undercurrent is there. And of course there are others who revel in it. It becomes a topic of conversation for them, but also they then fan the flames and you're not immune to it.
06:16And even though you are doing your damn best to ignore what is going on on the side, you can't ignore it.
06:25And it's when you're in the comfort of your own home, in your own space, in your own time, even when you're out walking your dogs and you're thinking about things you've been told, you've seen the messages that are coming through to you on a regular basis,
06:41that, that, you know, are pressured, intimidatory, and at times vexatious as well.
06:50Would you say, I mean, do you reckon, do you reckon, it was obviously, these were obviously targeted, it was obviously targeted to yourself, wasn't it?
06:59But do you reckon it was, do you think maybe, I don't know if you can say, do you reckon it was maybe part of like a power, maybe part of a power play?
07:05Absolutely, definitely. There has been a very troublesome period within all groups in Warsaw for the last few years.
07:19You've only got to see that in terms of not just the Conservative group, but the Labour group, you know, their split, the independents.
07:28So there's been a troublesome period politically for a few years now. And certainly that was the same for my group.
07:37And, you know, whatever side of the fence you fell on in terms of supporting that, it was still a difficult period.
07:45And I became leader at a very difficult time because of what was happening within my own group and with certain members of that group as well.
07:57But never did I expect when I was seeking to draw a line under some of that and move forward and progress and call that call for unity, which I've done on a regular basis.
08:09And my recent letter to the whole of the group just after the annual meeting was very clear about this is what is factually correct. This is what isn't correct.
08:21More importantly, there's this call for unity there that, you know, we are, despite that, we can be proud of some of the things that we have delivered and we are going on to deliver.
08:32But that didn't resonate.
08:33So just as far as, just as far as the, the, the bullying and sort of like the backhandedness goes, I mean, where, what's, what's sort of next with that?
08:43Are you, do you plan on taking that as sort of anything after all?
08:48Who knows?
08:49Who knows?
08:50I've done what I've had to do and I am following a process with that.
08:55What it has led me to do is to question integrity in public office as a whole.
09:00So not just focusing on what I know about Warsaw and some of the things I've seen and heard in Warsaw, but that wider, you know, you've only got to go and do some internet searches to find other councils and government offices where things don't seem right.
09:18Um, and where there's questionable behaviours at play, whether that's a power struggle, whether that's a lack of integrity in decision making.
09:28Um, clearly there are issues of property in some areas, specifically if you're looking at, um, you know, decisions around licensing, decisions around planning applications, which the public will always want to scrutinise.
09:43Yeah.
09:44So I don't know whether there is more I can do at that regional national level to, to, to support whatever work is going on in public office to one, adhere to those Nolan principles, but also to, to make sure that, um, men and women are elected, um, on the basis of what they will do for their communities.
10:07And they are, you know, they serve that purpose that there is an issue for me as well around candidate selections as well.
10:15So I'm not talking about those who don't align themselves to a political party, but, um, I, you know, we, we can't dictate to political parties, the processes that they follow.
10:26But the first and foremost of their, their processes should be, can this person serve my, my community or these, these communities selflessly, with integrity, with honesty, um, and put the residents first.
10:42And I don't know whether there's a role for me at a, at a, at a different level looking at some of that, but who knows, but it's an interest now that I've got.
10:55So just have a slightly more, I mean, I'd say bittersweet maybe, um, obviously everyone, obviously everyone's distraught, you know, everyone's distraught that you've stepped, that you've, uh, that you've stepped down from it.
11:05Palsall as well, especially, but, um, obviously they're, they're also really pleased because now you've got a new, now you've got the, now you've got a refocus on Palsall itself.
11:13So obviously you're coming back as a, you always, always there as a ward counsellor, weren't you?
11:16Yeah.
11:17So you're sort of putting your main focus on, on, on Palsall now, is that what we, is that what we're expecting?
11:22Oh, absolutely. I mean, I, I've been an active individual in this community since the early nineties.
11:28I was 13 when I first got involved in the community here, um, as, as a local resident, um, first difference, a set of circumstances that's well publicized.
11:36You know, what, what my routine was, was through the fact that, you know, we had a problem as a family.
11:41Um, we were, we were homeless for a short period and navigating the system then was difficult for us.
11:48And that then gave me a little bit of an inkling as to what goes on in terms of the democratic process.
11:54But then when I was elected, I was elected on a ticket of putting Palsall first.
11:58Meaning if ever you were managing to find one of those leaflets from 1998, you will see that as a strapline putting Palsall first.
12:05And I didn't expect to win then. I was 22. Um, you, you, you could only get elected in those days when you were 21, not like today when you're 18.
12:13So I was still very new, very nervous, very naive and was up against some very seasoned political activists at a local level.
12:21In fact, one of them I remember in a local street just from here saying to me, you're fighting a fantastic campaign, but you know, you're not going to win.
12:29And you know what? I probably agreed with him, but I did it the old way.
12:33You know, I got on the back of a lorry with a loudailer and went round the village, which was decorated with Union Jacks.
12:38I remember it very well. I knocked on doors. I mobilised people that were connected to my mum's history in this village.
12:46It was a mining village. Her dad was a miner route here, going back, you know, very familiar local names, Smiths and Stackhouses.
12:55And I tried to galvanise that as well. Never did I expect to win. And I did. And I've been here ever since.
13:03You know, this is my, this will now be coming up to my 28th year as a, as a local councillor.
13:09And I've never forgotten that. If you look at our local Facebook page, for example, it is Pelsall first.
13:15Um, so yes, I have been aligned to a, to, to a political party, but that to me is the side issue.
13:22The issue is you should be able to rise above politics when you're serving a community like Pelsall, which has got deep roots, very proud.
13:29Yes, it's changed over the years and there's lots of progress and positive things I can point to that I've had an impact on that I've delivered for this community.
13:38I've had colleagues come. I've had colleagues go. I'm very fortunate at the moment in Ed and Rose.
13:44I've got two outstanding colleagues who are committed and dedicated public servants.
13:49Um, and our communities can benefit from that, but we are in a very challenging time.
13:55Um, as you know, we're not naive to that either, but we have to keep delivering what our local people want us to, to, to deliver.
14:03And that's getting the grass cut on a regularish basis, cleaning our streets, um, filling in the potholes, uh, allowing families access and children to good schools, which all of our three primary schools are, are good schools.
14:18Um, uh, who, who, who have got a good reputation at a local level.
14:22Um, if for our elderly, it's having things to do that, that can break that cycle of loneliness and isolation.
14:29And not just the LD, all age vulnerabilities exist, um, which is why we're very proud of community centers like here at Pelsall, which in September will celebrate its 60th year in this village.
14:40Um, which was built a building built by public subscription and selflessly dedicated volunteers have managed to keep the center going for, for what will now be 60th year.
14:53So it's things like that, that we remind ourselves on these matters to local people.
14:58I, I remember if you've, there were two of my play areas when, when I first got elected, we were absolute derelict, old fashioned, 1970s, rusty swings and everything.
15:07Both of them have been replaced to the point now they need a little bit more investment.
15:11And there's another one in an area vehicle crime is, is a massive concern for us.
15:16We know it's a national issue, 15% rise on a national basis.
15:20Um, we're not complacent about that, but you also have to bring perspective to the argument as well.
15:25But what can we do?
15:26We can, there's the resilient community side of that.
15:29That's impairing our communities to do some things themselves to, to, to, to add that layer of protection, security for the things that they, you know, that are valuable to them.
15:38But also then it's making sure that police resources are focused where they're needed.
15:44And it's similar argument to off road bikes.
15:47Yeah.
15:48So that's what we've got to, that's what we've got to look forward to in Pelsa now, obviously.
15:51You know, pretty much, pretty much everything that you've done before, just super amped, I suppose.
15:55Super amped, super amped.
15:56Super amped, I like the word.
15:58Yeah.
15:59So, um, just as far as, just as far as, and I don't mean to bring you back to, I don't mean to bring you back to the council, but just as far as, cause you had, you had, you had an amazing, you had an amazing journey with the, with the council, with, with being the leader of the council.
16:14I mean, is there anything, is there anything in there that you're particularly proud of, that you brought, uh, to the area?
16:20As leader.
16:21Yeah.
16:22So, I guess there's some three standalone things for me.
16:26That's ensuring that the council really focuses on the lived experiences of the people we serve.
16:33It's very different, not done anywhere else, quite unique to Warsaw is that all of the cabinet meetings started generally with a lived experience, um, of an individual or a group that lives, works and provides for Warsaw.
16:49Um, and, um, that grounded the decision making in, in, in, in that lived experience.
16:55So, if we take, for example, the lived experiences of young care relievers and focus on what it feels like to be living the care system, to go and live independently with all the challenges around that, that's access to housing, that's access to employment.
17:11Um, and we did shine a light on that and we used those lived experiences of those young people to be the voice of care leavers and we brought them into the cabinet setting.
17:21Um, I went and, um, I held a forum at the college, um, with a broad range of young people.
17:28I then got two reverse mentors, which, which you probably saw, which were two individuals who then they, they themselves had had troubled backgrounds.
17:37Um, fine young men now who'd been supported by Mid and Langus ever, um, and the boxing at Leymour to, to, to, to have a diversion activity to what, what they were and, and turn their lives around.
17:51And then they became as part of the steps together programme going into the town centre early evening to work alongside young people who were at risk of getting into danger.
17:59And those two young individuals reverse mentored me.
18:02So I, I was grounded in the things that were happening to young people at a wider level and what we could do to help them.
18:09So I'm really proud, proud of that.
18:11And, and, uh, the fact that, um, you know, we, we, we, we gave young people a voice.
18:17And then for once, you know, we set up that youth council, we had that youth debate as well.
18:22Um, and we're making headway.
18:24And one of the last things I left as a legacy issue, um, it's hard to talk in terms of leaving something behind when you're still there,
18:31but the, the, the commitment to build a youth base in the town centre where some of our challenges are, particularly after 3.30 of an afternoon.
18:39And that will happen there, that there will be a youth facility in the town.
18:42So these individuals working with young people can divert people into a safe space.
18:47I'm proud of that.
18:48Of course, I'm going to always wax lyrical about the resilient communities model itself.
18:54Um, that has really transformed our relationship with the volunteer and community sector across Warsaw in a very, very different way to how we would have traditionally done it before.
19:05They stepped up when others stepped back, particularly during COVID.
19:09We've got that model in place.
19:10It was all about community impairment.
19:11It was about community led solutions to local problems and what bigger problem and challenge to, to be presented with them within the pandemic.
19:20And our voluntary community sector stepped up in a way that was unimaginable.
19:26And I continue to build those relationships, work with those community organisations, um, whether that's opportunities to work closer with health,
19:35whether that's opportunities to work closer at a local level, dealing with community safety issues, um, tackling lowliness, tackling isolation, active based provision.
19:44Um, and making sure that they were treated as equal partners, not just a standalone service that is, that, that is repair lip service too.
19:53So I'm really proud of that.
19:54And I'm proud of that, that, uh, model, uh, which again is national exemplar linked to some of the examples around community cohesion as well, because we fared, fared well for that.
20:05And I think the third thing for me is a little bit of a personal mission that I was on.
20:09So you'll hear me talk a lot about enforcement and particularly around fly tipping and littering offences, which did give me a lot of attention as well,
20:18because I wanted to make sure that people understood sometimes resources are so finite, but the people who live and work and travel through our borough can drain that because of their behaviours.
20:29So I did shine a light on that. So I wanted to mention that. So I guess there's a fourth one. The fourth one has to be, um, what we were doing around housing and homelessness.
20:40Yeah.
20:41It is a really difficult problem. Um, we were connected at a regional level. Uh, our, you know, I don't want to talk about statistics in a positive way around homelessness because everyone is, is a, is a, is a problem.
20:55But, you know, we have lower numbers of, of rust sleeping, um, and that's because of the hares in first pilot that, that we, we, uh, worked through over the last few years.
21:04But investment in temporary accommodation. So when there is nowhere else for families to go and they've lost their home, it was ensuring that, um, we didn't just put them in hotels.
21:16Yes, we still have to do that. Um, because there's, there is still a need to do it, particularly in emergency situations.
21:22But the whole investment, the opening of the community shops, that wrap around to, to using the household support fund.
21:29I added my name to a national campaign to retain that fund because I saw the benefits that was happening at a local level here,
21:36including this centre that distributes some low level income grants to things like white goods, access to services, energy, electricity.
21:44We, we, we've even used household support funds to pay deposits for families to get them a private rented where social, um, uh, social availability isn't, isn't there for them.
21:56That is the right thing to do. Yes, our numbers are still high, far too high.
22:01And we keep talking about house building in this country and there's lots of challenges coming there around greenbelt protection,
22:06which I'll always be plumping for as well.
22:09But we can't also keep talking about just investing in private housing when the social rented sector, there is such a need.
22:19And we don't really talk about that anymore, about building effectively council homes, social houses for rent.
22:27We don't hear them, hear national politicians talk in that sense. And that's a passion for me as well.
22:34So the, uh, the statement that you keep, the statement that you keep using is, uh, is, is, is, is, is parcel first?
22:39Absolutely.
22:40Yeah.
22:41So that's what we've got to look forward to in the future.
22:42That is something you've taken a step down from what, from, from the leader, um, which is,
22:46I would say I, I stepped up, not stepped down.
22:49Oh, I stepped up. That's a very good one.
22:51Um, and I stepped up to make a stand, um, on a specific, if that, if that even sounds weird in itself,
22:57but I should, I should say I stood up, um, to make a stand on something that I, I felt was not appropriate.
23:05And, um, there'll probably be more to say that, um, in, in the coming months, but, um, at the moment I've got to heal and I need to allow others to heal as well.
23:19Um, it's within their gift to look closely at their own behaviors.
23:24And, um, there's no right and wrong in this.
23:27It's, it's, it's all about actually, if you have a shred of decency and a shred of integrity,
23:33you would be able to hold that mirror up to yourself and think, actually, on reflection, these behaviors were not appropriate.
23:42I do. I think that's, I think that's great.
23:44Is that all right with you?
23:45Yeah, yeah, that's great.
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