The government is considering impeachment proceedings against Justice Yashwant Verma after a three-judge panel report confirmed the presence of unexplained cash at his Delhi residence.
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00:00Good evening, hello and welcome. You're with the news today. This is your prime time destination,
00:04news, newsmakers, talking points. Tonight, the big talking point is the stage set now for the
00:11impeachment of Justice Verma, the judge at whose home a large haul of cash was found. We'll have
00:18exclusive details of the three judge bench report on Justice Verma. Is impeachment now the only
00:26option to remove the judge? Also, we'll be telling you, is the American dream over for thousands of
00:33Indian students as the Trump administration clamps down? We've got plenty on the show as always for
00:40you. But first, it's time for the nine headlines at nine. The Trump administration hauls student visa
00:48interviews amidst widening social media wetting push, orders missions to stop all new visa
00:55applications. Already scheduled visa appointments will continue.
01:02Deep probe findings in Judge Cash called Rao. India today learns only Justice Verma's family
01:09could access room where cash was found, according to the three judge report. Government mulls
01:16impeachment of the impeachment of the judge. Mock drills to take place in three border states
01:23tomorrow, Gujarat, Rajasthan and Jammu and Kashmir. Operation Sindhuur is still ongoing, claims the
01:28government.
01:32Top Congress Netaz slams Shashi Tharoor for hailing Operation Sindhuur and the Modi government
01:38calls him a BJP spokesperson. Congress Netaz remind Tharoor of strikes and that took place during the UPA
01:47era in 1965 and 71 against Pakistan.
01:54More proof of India's strikes on Pakistan air bases. Park's air warning system at Bolari Air Base
02:00was likely hit by India's BrahMos. Sat images show missile strike craters.
02:09Relief for Ashoka University Professor Ali Khan Mehmoodabad. Supreme Court extends the interim bail
02:15granted to the professor. Tells SIT, don't try to expand the scope of the probe.
02:20Aadna University sexual assault case accused Gnandr Shekhar and Pound guilty by a Chennai court.
02:30AIDMK claims credit for forcing speedy action. DVK says attempt to cover up by the DMK failed.
02:38Actor turned Neta Kamalhasan reignites a language face-off. Says Kannada was born out of Tamil language.
02:45Chief Minister Siddharamaya says Kamalhasan unaware of Karnataka's history and culture.
02:50As three Indians go missing in Tehran, India raises an issue with Iran.
02:57Indian embassy in Iran tells government to trace the Indian citizens immediately.
03:01They had been on their way to Australia under false pretense.
03:05Let me then turn to the big breaking news that we are getting at the moment in the Justice Yashwand Verma case.
03:22The cash that was found at the house of the Delhi High Court judge.
03:27The government now we are told is seriously considering an impeachment motion against Justice Verma.
03:33Sources saying the Modi government will take the opposition into confidence ahead of the monsoon session of parliament which begins in July.
03:42India today has accessed the full cash haul report by a three-judge panel appointed by the Supreme Court.
03:48The report says it has established the presence of cash at the house of Justice Verma.
03:57And Justice Verma wasn't able to explain the cash source when he was questioned.
04:03Report says that the judge claimed that this was a conspiracy against him and that was his only defense.
04:10Joining me now is our legal editor Nalini Sharma joins us for more.
04:15Nalini, what does the report say about Justice Verma and his involvement in this alleged cash haul?
04:24Well, actually, first and foremost, the report says that there is strong inferential evidence that states that the cash was, in fact, present in that storeroom where the fire occurred on the intervening night of March 14th and 15th.
04:37It also goes on to say on the basis of the statements given by the witnesses, who were the first responders, that the stacks of cash that were present in that room were at least one and a half feet high.
04:48And the stacks continued from the door itself right to the opposite wall of the room.
04:53So the entire length of the room, they were 1.5 feet high stacks of cash that were present in the room.
04:59How much of it was burnt and how much of it was removed by his staff is something that they have not been able to assert in.
05:06Along with that, it also goes ahead and says that once the presence of cash was established beyond reasonable doubt, the burden of proof was on Justice Verma.
05:15To go ahead and give details of exactly where that cash came from, what was the source of the cash.
05:20But no reasonable answers were given by Justice Verma during the time that the inquiry panel interrogated him.
05:27Along with that, he was also not able to give any reasons behind how this cash could have reached his house.
05:33He only gave a flat denial and alleged that there was a conspiracy against him.
05:38Another interesting aspect that has come out through this report and the details of which we have now accessed,
05:43is that the inquiry panel had also asked the Delhi police commissioner as to why there was an FIR that was not been registered by them
05:54when they arrived at the location because they were the first responders.
05:57To which the Delhi police commissioner had responded that there were legalities regarding registration of an FIR against the sitting judge.
06:04Justice Verma was also not present, which is essentially why they could not get a go-ahead from the Chief Justice of India
06:11and did not register an FIR at that particular point.
06:14Another important aspect that has come out from this entire report is that that storehouse where this cash was found
06:20was only accessible to Justice Verma and his family.
06:24And the committee has clearly stated that there was no outsider that could get access to this store-room.
06:30So it's damning evidence that is part of this report against Justice Verma
06:34on the basis of which the impeachment motion is now likely to be initiated.
06:38It remains to be seen why Justice Verma is still remaining defiant
06:42and how he plans to take on this entire legal war in the days coming ahead.
06:46Nalini Sharma bringing us those very, very explosive details.
06:53Clearly, Justice Verma now on the back foot.
06:57Appreciate you joining us.
06:58A major scandal unfolding in India's judiciary
07:02as Justice Yashwant Verma faces allegations of this undisclosed cash wads that were found at his residence.
07:10The government now weighing impeachment.
07:12It hasn't successfully been done in this country over the last seven decades.
07:17It's a rare and complex move against a sitting judge that will require a two-thirds majority in parliament
07:24for the judge to be impeached and then a full vote in the Rajya Sabha as well.
07:29Take a look at our top story today.
07:32A judge who is now clearly in the dock.
07:35A story shocking the very foundations of Indian judiciary.
07:43The Narendra Modi government is considering impeachment proceedings against Justice Verma,
07:48a sitting judge of the Allahabad High Court.
07:51This comes after a shocking discovery of cash at his official residence in the national capital
07:56during his earlier posting at the Delhi High Court.
07:59Sources tell India today, the impeachment motion could be moved in the monsoon session of parliament
08:05if Justice Verma doesn't resign.
08:08Then, Chief Justice of India, Sanjeev Khanna, had written to the President and the Prime Minister
08:13recommending impeachment after Justice Verma refused to step down.
08:18A Supreme Court appointed committee of three judges from the Punjab and Haryana,
08:23Himachal Pradesh and Karnataka High Courts
08:25had indicted Justice Verma in its report to the CJI.
08:30Sources say the panel confirmed the cash was found in a locked storeroom used by Justice Verma staff
08:36and yet the judge pleaded ignorance.
08:39The CJI wanted to judge the FIH and his investigation further.
08:46Where did the cash come from?
08:47Who did the cash come from?
08:49This was investigated and then they were able to get the cash.
08:55They were able to get the cash and criminal action and the proceedings were able to get the impeachment.
09:00They were able to get the impeachment proceedings side by side.
09:01Sources say the government will take the opposition into confidence before moving the impeachment motion.
09:09But impeaching a sitting High Court judge is no easy task.
09:13Under Articles 1244 and 217 of the Constitution, the process is lengthy and politically sensitive.
09:21It begins with a motion of impeachment, backed by at least 100 MPs in the Lok Sabha or 50 in the Rajya Sabha.
09:29Once admitted, the Speaker or Chairman must constitute a special investigation committee.
09:35If the panel confirms proved misbehavior, the motion must then pass both the houses,
09:41with a two-thirds majority of members present and voting.
09:44Only then can the President order removal.
09:48Given the fact that everyone would be ad item on the principle that corruption cannot be tolerated anywhere,
09:55keeping in mind the larger protections that are envisaged between the Constitution of India
10:00and therefore what are the steps to be taken which are correct in law and in procedure,
10:04we should be hopeful that no one would be ever covering up any act of corruption,
10:09certainly not the government of Prime Minister Narendra Modi
10:11and certainly not the judiciary which would like no taint on it.
10:16Justice Verma has rejected the Supreme Court panel's findings,
10:20calling them motivated and false.
10:23With the monsoon session just weeks away, the pressure is building
10:26and India could be headed for a rare and unprecedented showdown in Parliament.
10:32Bureau Report, India Today.
10:34Let's raise the big questions then tonight.
10:38Is impeachment the best and only option in the circumstances?
10:44Should there be a complete police investigation against the judge?
10:48What is the ideal way to probe our judges?
10:50Joining me now, two very special guests.
10:53Justice Sanjeev Banerjee, retired former Chief Justice of the High Courts of Madras and Meghalaya,
10:58and Indira Jai Singh, Senior Advocate, Supreme Court, former Additional Solicitor General,
11:02and someone who through a long and distinguished career has taken on the judiciary and judicial corruption in particular.
11:09I want to come to you, Indira Jai Singh, first.
11:11As those details are coming off that three-judge probe report,
11:15sources to India today saying that the judge clearly is in the dock.
11:19How do you think the government should respond?
11:23Is impeachment now the only option if the judge decides to stick to his chair?
11:29Impeachment is certainly a desirable option.
11:31I would say it's an unavoidable option.
11:33But, Rajdeep, I must say that I'm a little disappointed that the full text of the report has not been made public,
11:40neither by the Chief Justice of India, the then Chief Justice, nor by the current Chief Justice.
11:45And petitions which went to court under RTI asking for a release of the report have been rejected by the court.
11:52So, I don't understand this mix of transparency with non-transparency.
11:58But, coming to your question, yes, impeachment is inevitable.
12:04And it is the only solution for removal.
12:07I heard you talk about a police complaint.
12:10Yes, a police complaint is possible.
12:11But it will not result in removal.
12:14At best, it will result in pending the investigation, non-assignment of work.
12:20But he's already not being assigned work.
12:24So, let me get this right.
12:25You're saying you would like this three-judge bench report,
12:30which a Supreme Court-appointed committee report to be made public?
12:34Is that what you're saying?
12:35I'm saying exactly that.
12:37I'm saying it has not been made available till today, even to the MPs.
12:44Let's get one thing very clear, Rajdeep.
12:46It is not the government that impeaches or removes.
12:50It is the members of Parliament.
12:52This report should be the property of the House.
12:57It should be the property of members of Parliament
12:59because they will now have to sign on to a motion for his removal.
13:04The government does not sign on to a motion for removal.
13:06Remember, if the government were to sign on to a motion for removal,
13:10it would be a very dangerous political precedent, okay?
13:15They could then remove anybody they want to remove.
13:17No, it is the House.
13:19It is the privilege of the House to move an impeachment motion which gets admitted.
13:25And so, at the very least, I would expect this report to be tabled in the House
13:32or be made individually available to every member of Parliament.
13:35But apart from that, Rajdeep, you did mention that I have been pursuing the issue
13:39of judicial accountability for several years.
13:42I, as a member of the legal profession, I, as a member of the public,
13:45I have a right to read this report regardless of the outcome of these proceedings.
13:49Do you agree with that, Justice Sanjeev Banerjee, in the first instance,
13:55that if this report is out there, if this report has indicted Justice Verma
13:59as sources are now telling us, do you believe this report must be out in the public domain
14:04or would that in some way be unfair against the judge?
14:11Or should there be a police investigation?
14:12How do you believe this should now proceed?
14:15That report should be made public immediately.
14:20It's an investigation which has been, which has been ordered by the Chief Justice of India.
14:26That part of it was made public.
14:28The previous reports of the Chief Justice of the Delhi High Court were partially kind of disclosed.
14:35This report should be made public.
14:37Everyone should know so that, you know, particularly the MPs,
14:42they can take a call on whether or not to sign on this issue once it reaches the parliament.
14:50So, are you saying that the logical solution to Justice Verma,
14:56who at the moment is claiming innocence, is therefore only impeachment now?
15:01Do you believe that there is any other way in which this can be resolved?
15:04Or given that in 75 years, we've never had really a successful impeachment?
15:11Well, there was one case where, you know,
15:14it was passed by one of the houses and the judge resigned.
15:20That's right. Justice Sumitra Sen was passed by the Rajya Sabha.
15:23Yes.
15:24And he quit days before the Lok Sabha was to take up the motion.
15:27Exactly.
15:28And there was similar conspiracy theory propounded by him also.
15:34But, of course, in this case, there will be a further investigation
15:38in terms of the parliamentary procedure for impeachment.
15:43And that will also look into his allegations.
15:46You can't just, you know, throw up your hands and say that there was a conspiracy
15:50unless there's some particulars.
15:52From what I believe from your access to the report is that the committee members concluded
15:59that no one other than family members had access to the place concerned.
16:05And therefore, that is quite a damning fact.
16:10Should there be a police investigation as well, Justice Banerjee, if this was an ordinary citizen
16:24in whose house cash was found in large amounts, the first thing would be a police investigation?
16:29First and foremost, there should be this process of impeachment.
16:33And after that, there could be a police investigation.
16:35There's no problem.
16:36But first and foremost, you know, we should.
16:39And I'm not saying, I don't know whether he's one of the rotten apples.
16:43But first and foremost, we should get rid of some of the rotten apples from judiciary.
16:46If this is the report, should the judge be resigning before the impeachment motion, in your view,
16:54as I said, happened with Justice Sumitra Sen, who resigned before the Lok Sabha was to take up a motion?
17:00Or do you believe the judge has every right to defend himself as Justice Ramaswamy attempted in 1993
17:06when there was an impeachment motion against him?
17:10If the judge is convinced that he did not do it, he has a right to defend himself.
17:14And we do not know what is the truth.
17:19You know, sometimes these reports don't throw up what is the truth.
17:26But, you know, the impeachment is the logical process.
17:30And he has a right to defend himself, whether he takes a fall on resigning is completely personal.
17:35And I'm nobody to advise him.
17:38But, yes, this is a serious issue.
17:41And this is, you know, indicative of a malaise.
17:46I'm not for once holding this judge responsible or saying that, you know, he is wrong or that the cash was his.
17:55But it's indicative of a malaise which has to be tended to.
18:01Do you believe, Indira Jai Singh, therefore impeachment is a way of sending out a strong signal
18:08to other judges who may allegedly be also rotten apples?
18:13We're not yet pronouncing on the guilt of Justice Verma.
18:15But do you believe that impeachment is the ideal way to probe judges?
18:19See, Raj, the first and foremost, there has to be a proper fact finding.
18:27And the only way that you can have a proper fact finding is by impeachment.
18:32OK, this three judge committee did not have access to a lot of material and they have just come to their own prima facie conclusion.
18:42See, in Ramakum Swami's case, although it was not impeached because, mind you, the Congress abstained from voting on the motion for no other reason.
18:53But there was a proper fact finding where he was found guilty of misconduct and corruption.
19:00You must understand these fact finding reports have a value of their own.
19:05And as Justice Banerjee pointed out, once there's a fact finding report, a prosecution can follow.
19:11Today, he has immunity from prosecution because he's a sitting judge unless the Chief Justice of India gives permission to prosecute.
19:18So the first step is fact finding. And that fact finding happens inside parliament, not outside parliament.
19:27So I repeat, see, Raj, what we have to understand is what for is this whole process being gone through?
19:35Because judges are meant to serve the public. OK, who are they? Who are these judges?
19:41They are supposed to do justice to whom? To people like you and me.
19:44And if there is even the slightest suspicion that a judge is corrupt, you know, it's like a slur on the judiciary as a whole.
19:55Now, the Supreme Court has also tried to deal with this issue by simply transferring judges.
20:00It doesn't work. It has not worked. And therefore, I think it's really time that this impeachment is taken seriously.
20:07Yes, but the fact, Indira Jaisingh, precisely stemming from, no, but the fact precisely stemming from what you said, there are those who say, why conduct this in-house inquiry in an opaque manner?
20:19Now, you've had this three-judge bench. As you said, their report is not out in the public domain.
20:24Should there have been also a simultaneous police investigation? Some of these facts will be required to only be ascertained by a proper criminal investigation, given the nature of the charges.
20:36Cash is found in the House in these large vats. Can judges and in-house committee really be the fact-finding appropriate forum?
20:43Or should it have been done by, dare I say, a proper police investigation?
20:46The Raj, the parliament consists of the House of People and the Rajasova. Obviously, these are our representatives, okay?
20:57Representatives of we, the people of India, okay? So, this, when this, let me tell you, the impeachment proceedings happen in public, okay?
21:07The proceedings of the House are open to everybody. And everybody in the country has a right to know what's going on in the impeachment proceedings.
21:16Therefore, I consider it an appropriate forum in which these issues are debated. It's a different matter that Justice Ramaswamy boycotted the proceedings.
21:25I'm hoping that Justice Verma does not boycott these proceedings so that we get an opportunity to hear both sides of the matter.
21:34There is no burden…
21:35No, but don't you need, don't you need a police investigation to trace the source of the cash?
21:40No, you do need it. But as Justice Banerjee pointed out, let's have the impeachment report to begin with.
21:49And it is not a close question whether he'll be prosecuted.
21:53Today, he is refusing to resign because he has immunity as a sitting judge.
21:59If he had resigned, there would have been a police case on the next date, okay?
22:04So, removal is really a precondition to his being prosecuted, so to say, failing which the Chief Justice of India will have to give permission to prosecute, which they have not given so far.
22:16They've opted for this process of impeachment, rather suggested it.
22:23No one can impeach. It's only the MPs who can take this decision.
22:28That also, you must be very clear. Your viewers and your listeners must be very clear.
22:33No government can be given this power because if the government is given the power, they can remove anybody they want to remove.
22:39No, it is in the hands of the MPs. The report is the property of the MPs.
22:46A copy should be given to each and every single one of the MPs, which has not been done.
22:52And I'm surprised at that.
22:53I want to ask you, I want to ask, therefore, both of you in conclusion, starting with you, Justice Banerjee first, will this be a deterrent?
23:00That's the big question. Lots of people out there will be asking, will this be a deterrent?
23:05Surely, there's not corruption, many believe, exists in our judiciary at different levels.
23:13Will this case become a deterrent, in your view, if impeachment follows?
23:17It will be somewhat of a deterrent, but I want a better system in place.
23:22We've got to devise a better system where something short of impeachment would also be available.
23:29Because this impeachment sometimes becomes a political process.
23:33And it's not always where, you know, the result of the investigation or the culpability of the person concerned weighs in the ultimate consideration.
23:46So, there should be something else also, a mechanism put in place.
23:52And all of this can be addressed together, you know, together with the fine-tuning, the appointments and elevation issue.
24:03Indira Jaisingh, will this be a deterrent if this impeachment does actually go ahead in the next few weeks, months?
24:08Indira Jaisingh, I believe that the level of impunity of judges has reached such a high level that it may not be a deterrent.
24:20Secondly, I want to ask the question, why is the fountain of justice polluted at its source?
24:26By which I mean, why is there no better screening at the stage of appointment?
24:31So, I agree with the learned judge, Justice Banerjee, who just said, it's the entire system which needs a complete overhaul.
24:40You know, the UPA government did introduce a judicial accountability and standards bill.
24:45For some unknown reason, that bill was withdrawn.
24:49I do agree with the learned judge that there needs to be an intermediate system between impeachment and ultimate removal.
24:58Or even to work as a deterrent.
25:00Today, where are the standards of conduct?
25:02We don't have standards of conduct.
25:05Look at the way, you know, the profession and the judiciary is behaving.
25:10You know, it's like party after party.
25:13I don't know what to tell you, Rajdeep.
25:14I really don't know what to say.
25:16The kind of socializing that exists.
25:18And by the way, I don't have a copy of the report.
25:22But I have reason to believe that not only is the judge indicted,
25:25there are certain other legal professionals also who are likely to be involved in this whole issue.
25:31So, it's the system really requires, as the learned judge says, a huge amount of change if it is going to serve the public.
25:40You know, that really is it.
25:45Will the chickens now come home to roost?
25:48Will all the skeletons come tumbling out of the cupboard?
25:52Should an impeachment be followed by a proper police investigation, judges surely are not above the law.
26:00And judicial, the judiciary needs far greater accountability is the message that's coming out.
26:08Indira Jaisingh and Justice Banerjee for joining me on my top talking point.
26:13I appreciate both of you speaking so plainly.
26:16Thank you so much.
26:17Let's turn from there to the latest on the politics over Operation Sindhoor,
26:27where it seems that the tension between the Congress and its MP, Shashi Tharoor, is building by the day.
26:36Today, another Congress leader, Udit Raj, attacked Tharoor,
26:40questioning whether Tharoor was loyal anymore to the Congress
26:43or was acting as a spokesperson for the Modi government.
26:47Several other Congress leaders, including Jairam Ramesh, have retweeted what Udit Raj said,
26:55as a result of which, the Tharoor versus Congress battle seems to be intensifying.
27:01There's also another battle within a battle in the opposition.
27:05Should there be a special session of Parliament to discuss Operation Sindhoor?
27:10That's what the Trinamul Congress now wants.
27:14But other parties like the NCP and the DMK don't seem to be quite so gungho.
27:21Take a look at the politics of Operation Sindhoor.
27:24The Congress's high command has a new headache, Shashi Tharoor.
27:33First, the Congress MP from Kerala agreed to head a delegation to the US without a go-ahead from his party.
27:40Now his statements abroad are contradicting the party's past claims on surgical strikes undertaken by the Congress government.
27:47But what has changed in recent years is that the terrorists have also realized they will have a price to pay.
27:59On that, let there be no doubt.
28:01When, for the first time, India breached the line of control between India and Pakistan to conduct a surgical strike on a terror base, a launch pad, the Uri strike.
28:16The Congress shared a statement by Manmohan Singh on X, marking it to Tharoor.
28:42Meanwhile, Operation Sindhoor has left India block divided.
28:49The Trinamul Congress on Wednesday made a strong pitch for a special session of Parliament to discuss the terror attack in Pahalgaam and the events that followed.
28:59The principal opposition party, Congress, was the first to seek a special session.
29:24The Parliament has called.
29:25The Parliament has called.
29:27The people will discuss what the state is and what they are doing and what we are doing and what we are doing.
29:38While some opposition parties are silent, Sharad Pawar's NCP has deferred with the Congress and the TMC on the demand for special Parliament session.
30:05Any terrorist attack on India, we support the government, whichever, it's the government of the time.
30:12That's point number one.
30:13And second, it's very clear that this is not the time to debate this issue in Parliament.
30:18Right now, we stand united as one India.
30:22With the political consensus on Operation Sindhoor almost breaking down, the BJP looks set to capitalise on these divisions within the opposition ahead of the monsoon session of Parliament.
30:33Bureau Report, India Today.
30:40Let's turn to another big story.
30:42In a major move, the Trump administration in the United States has now decided to halt all new student visa interviews worldwide.
30:51What does this mean for Indian students?
30:54And is the American dream now over for many thousands of students across the world?
31:00Let's break it down in our next report.
31:03What do we do?
31:05Stand up right back!
31:06I said with immigrants, all new students, welcome here!
31:12In education, we believe!
31:15Thank you!
31:16As tensions rise between U.S. President Donald Trump and Harvard University, a fresh blow lands, this time on international students.
31:25And now, stand up right back!
31:28What do we do?
31:29Stand up right back!
31:30The Trump administration has ordered U.S. embassies worldwide to pause all new student visa appointments.
31:40The State Department is tightening its grip, prepping to expand social media vetting for international students.
31:47U.S. Secretary of State Marco Rubio confirmed that consular sections must suspend new visa interview scheduling until further notice.
31:56Previously, this vetting focused on students involved in pro-Palestine demonstrations.
32:06Now, the crackdown broadens, citing concerns over anti-Semitism and political unrest on U.S. campuses.
32:13President Donald Trump had earlier this week doubled down on his demand for the list of names of international students enrolled at Harvard.
32:21We want to know who the people are.
32:25Now, a lot of the foreign students, we wouldn't have a problem with.
32:28I'm not going to have a problem with foreign students, but it shouldn't be 31 percent.
32:31It's too much, because we have Americans that want to go there and to other places, and they can't go there, because you have 31 percent foreign.
32:40Now, no foreign government contributes money to Harvard.
32:44We do.
32:44So why are they doing so money, number one?
32:47Number two, we want a list of those foreign students, and we'll find out whether or not they're okay.
32:52Every student's welcome here!
32:54This week on Harvard campus, hundreds rallied. Students and professors standing united defending the rights of foreign students as Washington moves to slash funding and revoke visa privileges.
33:07We were a country founded on immigrants, and we're a country, one of our core values is being welcoming to immigrants from all across the world into American shores.
33:20And I think that we've really gotten away from that core value.
33:25When we go back home, most of us serve as ambassadors to this country in an informal way.
33:30We go back to strengthen American ties with our countries.
33:34We are actually participating in this system, making this country bigger, if you want it better, in a sense.
33:41And so, I will just say that. We are not the enemy. You don't have to fight us.
33:45I think that Trump's attacks on higher education stop, because if we show enough resistance, then he is going to fall. That's how Trump works.
33:56We have to stop him now, and if we do, I believe that we can succeed.
34:00With nearly 30% of international students in the U.S. hailing from India, Indian students will be hit the hardest by the Trump administration's latest move to put new student visas on hold.
34:13The pause affects Fall 2025 first-time applicants, J-1 visa seekers and those yet to book an interview.
34:22If interviews are already scheduled, those will continue. But for the rest, uncertainty looms.
34:28The visa freeze, though temporary, comes with no end date. Students can still apply online but won't be able to schedule interviews.
34:38Until clarity emerges, Indian applicants are urged to stay in touch with their universities, consider deferrals, and watch for updates from the U.S. Embassy.
34:50Bureau Report, India Today.
34:55So, the latest twist in the Trump saga, this clampdown on student visas now. What does it mean for Indian students in particular? Joining me now, two very special guests.
35:08Viral Doshi is an education consultant and mentor who works with several students wishing to go to America. And with us, Rishabh Shah, founder of India's international movement to the United Nations.
35:20Thank you both very much for joining me. I want to come to Viral first. How do you see this move of the Trump administration?
35:26Does this mean that it's going to become more and more difficult now for Indian students who want to go to America over the next few years to study?
35:35Honestly, no. To be honest with you, what they have done is they have just halted the issuance of visa interviews. They have not told that visas are not going to be issued anymore.
35:45They just halted the visa interviews till such time that they get the social media policy into place. And once they get that into place, they will again start doing the interviews for all the students.
35:54And this is not something only for India. It's all over the world. All international students have been impacted by this diktat from the Secretary of State, Mr. Rubio.
36:04So, I think it's a question of time that we will come back. I think in a week or two, they will come back to the diktat. And once they have the diktat in place, believe me, it will be very good for students.
36:14They will get the visas. I don't think there's anything to worry at all on this issue.
36:19So, what are you saying Viral? Because most terms in America begin in August. We are already towards the end of May.
36:25Are you saying that within the next month, this will be sorted out in a manner that the students who have already got their admissions in American universities by August will be able to go there?
36:36I 100% think so. If you look at it, out of most students who have got admissions for August and September, I would say 50% have got their visa interviews all lined up.
36:45Maybe 50% haven't. But I think in the next one or two weeks when they get this policy into place, they will be giving priority interviews to students in June and July to get them off to go to America in August and September.
36:57So, I think there's a lot of worry right now. People are concerned. The news has been just unfolding yesterday. So, I think give it some time. I think it will work out well for all.
37:05So, I don't think parents should be worried. I think, yes, it is a bit of a concern. But as much as we want to go there, they also require international students.
37:13And this is not only impacting India. It's impacting students all across the world. So, they will sort it out. Give them some time, I would say.
37:20Okay. You're saying give it some time, things will get sorted out. Meanwhile, Rishabh, I brought you in the studio because this morning you put out a very interesting Instagram post where you seem to suggest that all of this leads to a big question mark.
37:34Why this desperation to go to the United States, to go to foreign universities, amplify the point that I thought was a rather interesting one as to why you believe the Trump order in a way should be a wake-up call for a number of Indian students and their parents?
37:48Firstly, thank you, sir, for having me here. It's an honor. But in terms of what you did mention, I think it's time to go away from the American dream. It's time to start building an Indian dream.
38:00I personally believe that a lot of students do benefit, of course, from the super specialization that they get in American universities and universities overseas.
38:09But I feel that there is also a huge amount of loan that students have to take. In the last few years alone, if one sees, there are about 461,000 students who have taken a loan, which is to the tune of 39,000 crore.
38:22Now, is it really necessary in order to take this kind of a loan to go overseas? How many people actually land up getting jobs? On an average, it's 60 lakh rupees per year that a student has to pay. And then eventually you get a job which is roughly 50 to 60,000 dollars.
38:37So 10 years just goes in paying back these loans. And that is if you get a job. And most of the students are coming back without a job. So I think what the Trump administration has done, I think is a blessing in disguise for anybody who's watching.
38:49Perhaps it's not as important to go overseas as much as it is in order to do hard work. So, sir, just quickly, I would say that it's not Harvard, but it's hard work that actually make it the ban.
38:59You're giving the Narendra Modi line there. Forget Harvard, do the hard work. But you threw two numbers at me. Your source of those numbers that 39,000 crores are being put in by Indian students just in American universities. Am I correct?
39:12Right. Right. In fact, this is a report by India today itself. So there is, you all have published it. And apart from this, it's 37 billion that we used to be sending across in 2019.
39:23Now it is 70 billion. So the number of students who are going overseas is only increasing. So somewhere we are not fixing the education problem in our country.
39:31Somewhere all education consultants are just sending students overseas without actually seeing whether these students are capable, competent and should also in the first place be taking this kind of a loan in order to study overseas.
39:44You agree with Viral with what I just heard from Rishabh? The numbers that I have is about 331,602 Indian students were in the US in 2023-24. Here is Rishabh saying, give up almost on your American dream and nurture an Indian dream instead.
40:04Do you agree with him or do you think that's a bit of an overreaction?
40:07No, I don't think so. I think what he says makes a lot of sense. You know, over the last six months, I've seen students who have been studying there, they're not getting any internships at all.
40:17Even students have graduated. Barely 40 to 50% of my students have got jobs in America. So I've told everybody that if you're going to spend this sort of money, $100,000 a year for four years for undergraduate studies or $100,000 for two years for postgraduate studies,
40:32postgraduate studies, you'll be mentally prepared that you will have to return to India. And India is a happening place that dream about Rishabh was just mentioning that you go to America, you work, you study there, you work for three years, do your postgraduate degree, that dream is going to be shattered.
40:47I'm seeing jobs are going more to the American citizens, Indian citizens are being left out. So that desire to go to America should be there to recalibrate your thought process, you go to America for the education, for the research, for the opportunities.
41:00Because even to stay back in India, it's so difficult in Indian colleges. So by default, people are going abroad, not because they want to.
41:06The number of Indian universities coming up in India, students are looking at India very excitedly. But where do you get in? Where do you get into IIT or medical school or even a new age school like Ashoka or Korea is becoming so competitive.
41:17By default, they're going abroad. But Rishabh is absolutely right. After spending so much money, what is the return on investment? That's a challenge. So you're going there, remember, as an investment, you may not go there to settle down or to work out there as an investment like buying a new house or buying a new property, you're investing in education.
41:34But would you make a distinction, Vishal, between those who are going for postgraduate specialised or super specialised courses, if I'm going for MIT for a postgraduate after being an IITian, would you make a distinction between someone like that and someone going for a general humanities course where he or she may be spending 50 to 60 lakhs per year for a four year course comes to 2.5 crores.
42:02Do you believe we should make that distinction, be careful about going at undergraduate level, but take all the opportunities at postgraduate? Is that the distinction that now needs to be drawn given this clampdown?
42:13At the end of the day, you must remember, India has come a long way. Affluency has increased. Foreign exchange is now freely available. Internet has become a level playing field, allowing students from second, third, fourth, fifth year cities to apply to go abroad. And also international schools have come up.
42:29So, the desire to go abroad is only exponentially increased for undergraduate studies. Whether it's going to add value to them or not is another story. But because admissions in India are so difficult, just think of it, for one good college in India, which has opened up for higher education, there are like 50 schools which have opened up.
42:44It's a funneling effect. So, when these schools, students are graduating, they can't get to Indian colleges. So, by default, they're looking at going overseas and they can afford it today, which is not the case earlier.
42:53But eventually, if a student has the ability to stay back in India, they can get a good Indian college. I'm a big fan of staying back in India, going for a postgraduate degree abroad.
43:03And these are the winners you see in America, all the founders in Silicon Valley, people have been very successful, have homegrown in India and then a postgraduate degree abroad.
43:11So, I think still going for a postgraduate degree abroad is worthwhile and you will get that skill set that will make you successful in whatever you do in life.
43:19You know, Rishabh, you run a student's organization, you interact with thousands of students across this country.
43:27The point that Viral makes there, many of our higher education universities are simply not up to it or there is a demand supply problem.
43:35And therefore, students are almost pushed to go abroad, look for an education abroad, not just America.
43:41People are going to Australia, Canada, the United Kingdom, different places.
43:45Are you telling me that these students genuinely would like to stay back and do an education in India if they had half a choice?
43:54Or are they going because? You know, Harvard is a great brand name. If you want to get into an Ivy League college, why will I not go?
44:01No. Firstly, I think that, you know, if they had an opportunity and if we had good institutions in India, I don't think anybody would want to leave the country.
44:10I do feel if you are not from the one percenters and if you, you know, if you are from that one percenter, then you can take a 60 lakh paid vacation.
44:18This is what I think an undergraduate course gives you overseas.
44:22You are calling it a paid vacation?
44:23A paid vacation.
44:24Surely not. I mean, are you telling me going to Harvard is a paid vacation for an undergrad course?
44:29Because today, when it comes to recruitment, when it comes to employment, there is no metric in terms of if you finished at Harvard, you are as good as finishing at HR college.
44:39The acceptance in terms of companies from Harvard University, the number of graduates who have actually gotten a job and the number of graduates at, say, St. Stephen's or an HR or St. Xavier's College is also roughly now going to become the same.
44:51Plus, we got AI and we live in that world where it's chat GPT enabled.
44:55So, I think gone are the days where essentially you used to only get education in Harvard University or in the Oxford's of the world.
45:02But you touched upon something very important, sir.
45:04You said that the education system in the country is not up to the mark.
45:08And if I can quickly just elucidate, it was in 1968 that the first NPE came through, the National Policy on Education.
45:15Then in 86, you had the National Policy on Education saying that 6% needs to be given.
45:20The same 6% is mentioned in what has now been changed from NPE beautifully to NEP.
45:25But no government has spent 6% on education when there are countries like Djibouti, when there are countries like Namibia who spend much more than 6%.
45:35So, I think the real problem is that we are not giving enough impetus to education in our country.
45:40If we only did that, I think the thousands of students, at least the very many that I work with, would not choose to go to universities overseas.
45:47And it's also because it's set in their brain, sir.
45:50I think somewhere, you know, my sister also went overseas in order to study.
45:54It's set in their brain. She studied in an IB school saying,
45:57So, first, do it. After the SAT examination, go to Ivy League school. Then at the end of that, you will get a fancy salary.
46:04But the reality check in this is, after the Ivy League school, sir, today they are not getting jobs.
46:08And then they are having to come back. And that is becoming a problem.
46:11All of this, of course, as I said, has been triggered by the uncertainty created by the Trump order.
46:16Viral, just yesterday, the U.S. Embassy in India released a clear message to students currently enrolled in American Education Institutes.
46:24I want to quote them. If you drop out, skip classes, leave your program of study without informing your school,
46:29your student visa may be revoked and you may lose eligibility. So, for future U.S. visas, all of this uncertainty is surely not helpful.
46:39What is your final advice, therefore, to all those thousands of students lining up or indeed enrolled in U.S. universities today?
46:47By and large, if you look at historically, Indian students who have studied in America, they have always followed the line. They always followed the order. They never went beyond the order.
46:56So, these are exceptional cases which would happen where you do not report some bunking classes or not getting your job or getting a job.
47:04So, I don't think this is going to impact Indian students so much at all between you and me. But we should take cognizance of this.
47:11This is going to happen now. It is no more the America which was there previously to the Trump administration.
47:16There will be a lot of monitoring of your social media. And especially political activism is something going to be a complete no-no.
47:23And I tell you, I've had incidents of students going to America at the airport being stopped and asked to step aside.
47:30And their phone would be taken and they would be checked what is your social media for the last 15-20 years.
47:35So, this is something we should be very… I would tell any student, yes, you are going to our country as a guest. Host is America. Follow the rules and regulations. You follow that. You should be a happy person.
47:47Okay. Final word from you, Rishabh. What's your advice to all those who are planning to go out there?
47:53I think you should also look at alternatives. These alternatives exist in a country called India. And definitely some of the universities that are overseas are much better than the schools that are there in our country.
48:03But we've also got something which the previous generations didn't. And that is something that's called internet. That's something that's called a mobile phone, a chat GPT.
48:11A chat GPT. And I think everything that was once available in the classrooms that were called Ivy League schools is now available on your phone.
48:19And the international exposure, if somebody is talking about that, go do an ISAC internship, go do an IIMON internship and you will get the same kind of exposure that you get in an Ivy League school.
48:29Let me leave it there. Two interesting viewpoints being expressed there. I'm not sure whether it is quite simply don't worry, be happy.
48:38It is an uncertain time. And with the Trump administration, who knows, he may wake up tomorrow and just change his mind once again and remove the uncertainty.
48:46That's the way Donald Trump operates. But for now, Viral Doshi, Rishabh Shah, appreciate you joining me on my talking point here.
48:54Thank you. Thank you, Rajdeep.