John and Adam discuss the deep historical connections between William Branham’s movement and modern charismatic expressions like Bethel Church. They explore how practices rooted in Branham’s blend of spiritualism and showmanship—including supposed miracles and manipulations—have evolved into contemporary revival rituals and doctrines.
Adam shares personal experiences from his time at Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry (BSSM), reflecting on how books like God’s Generals, Branham’s “blue books,” and John G. Lake’s biography were once central to the curriculum. Together, they critique how performance-based religion, experience-driven spirituality, and New Age terminology have crept into charismatic movements under the guise of Christian revivalism.
A major focus of their conversation is Bethel’s April 5 “Communion Revival,” an event presented as a prophetic ritual meant to spark a national awakening through declarations and symbolic acts. They draw eerie parallels between Bethel’s actions and Branham’s ceremonies, including theatrical communion services and hierarchies of spiritual authority. The discussion moves through topics like levitation stunts, Manifest Sons of God doctrine, “eating the scroll,” and more.
⸻
🎧 Listen to the Podcast:
https://william-branham.org/podcast
Also available on Spotify, Apple, and Google Podcasts.
📘 Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the N.A.R.
– Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
– Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
⸻
⏱️ Chapters
00:00 Introduction
01:04 From Branham to Bethel: Connecting the Historical Dots
04:39 BSSM Curriculum and the Legacy of Branham’s Teachings
06:13 Levitation, Illusion, and Religious Showmanship
11:01 Spiritualism, Fear, and the Blending of Magic with Faith
14:16 The Bethel Communion Revival: Rituals and Prophecy
18:00 Fear-Based Communion and the Legacy of Branhamism
22:01 Spiritual Activation vs. Biblical Remembrance
24:02 Manifest Sons of God and the “Broker” Mentality
26:48 Dominionism and the Seven Mountains Agenda
27:58 The Spiritual Warfare Framework and Anti-Study Fear
29:03 New Age Activation and Occult Parallels
30:09 “Trips to Heaven” and Astral Projection Practices
33:57 Experience Over Doctrine: Gateway Language and Altered States
37:04 Divination and the Justification of Prophetic Counterfeits
40:00 “Greater Works” and the Creation of Miniature Gods
43:52 Hierarchy at the Communion Table and Revelation 5 Reenactment
49:25 Eating the Scroll: New Symbolism, Same Framework
54:04 Why the Bible Must Remain the Final Authority
56:00 Exhaustion vs. Grace: Rejecting the Performance Trap
⸻
Adam shares personal experiences from his time at Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry (BSSM), reflecting on how books like God’s Generals, Branham’s “blue books,” and John G. Lake’s biography were once central to the curriculum. Together, they critique how performance-based religion, experience-driven spirituality, and New Age terminology have crept into charismatic movements under the guise of Christian revivalism.
A major focus of their conversation is Bethel’s April 5 “Communion Revival,” an event presented as a prophetic ritual meant to spark a national awakening through declarations and symbolic acts. They draw eerie parallels between Bethel’s actions and Branham’s ceremonies, including theatrical communion services and hierarchies of spiritual authority. The discussion moves through topics like levitation stunts, Manifest Sons of God doctrine, “eating the scroll,” and more.
⸻
🎧 Listen to the Podcast:
https://william-branham.org/podcast
Also available on Spotify, Apple, and Google Podcasts.
📘 Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the N.A.R.
– Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
– Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
⸻
⏱️ Chapters
00:00 Introduction
01:04 From Branham to Bethel: Connecting the Historical Dots
04:39 BSSM Curriculum and the Legacy of Branham’s Teachings
06:13 Levitation, Illusion, and Religious Showmanship
11:01 Spiritualism, Fear, and the Blending of Magic with Faith
14:16 The Bethel Communion Revival: Rituals and Prophecy
18:00 Fear-Based Communion and the Legacy of Branhamism
22:01 Spiritual Activation vs. Biblical Remembrance
24:02 Manifest Sons of God and the “Broker” Mentality
26:48 Dominionism and the Seven Mountains Agenda
27:58 The Spiritual Warfare Framework and Anti-Study Fear
29:03 New Age Activation and Occult Parallels
30:09 “Trips to Heaven” and Astral Projection Practices
33:57 Experience Over Doctrine: Gateway Language and Altered States
37:04 Divination and the Justification of Prophetic Counterfeits
40:00 “Greater Works” and the Creation of Miniature Gods
43:52 Hierarchy at the Communion Table and Revelation 5 Reenactment
49:25 Eating the Scroll: New Symbolism, Same Framework
54:04 Why the Bible Must Remain the Final Authority
56:00 Exhaustion vs. Grace: Rejecting the Performance Trap
⸻
Category
📚
LearningTranscript
00:00You
00:30Welcome to another episode of the William Branham historical research podcast. I'm your host John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham historical research at william-branham.org. And with me, I have my co host and friend, Adam Short, host of grit in the wild podcast. Adam, it's good to be back and to talk all things today we're talking about Bethel. And interestingly, just this week, I have pushed out a
00:59Like a 30 minute documentary clip on Branham to Bethel trying to summarize all of my thoughts of all of the research that I've done for gosh, it's probably been five years now about from Branham to the shepherding to the charismatic to the NAR how all that ties together, just published that and apparently it's making waves throughout all of the communities. And so today focusing on Bethel, I think we'll ride those waves.
01:29Let's do it. Let's do it. Yeah, I watched that last night. And incredible. I think it is the best rendition that I've seen that really takes the thread all the way back from William Branham even prior to William Branham, you know, all the way to Bethel and really connects the dots for many of us like myself who this is very new to still and it's only been really in the past what year and a half or so year ish that I come I came across your research and
01:58Didn't realize that all of these, these historical movements are all connected. It's not an accident is quite, quite intentional and by design. And so I found that documentary to be extremely, extremely helpful, you know, highlighting the key figures, going back to the 40s.
02:19And then all the way to now with Bethel. So, and it's kind of cool to you, you have the alliteration going, you had the, the Branham to Bethel is kind of have a nice ring to it. So, yeah. And there's so much more that I could say, but I thought, you know, if I get down on the weeds, nobody's going to really follow it. And it solved a couple of problems for me. Right. So I've had, I've had a few charismatic people who are gave their story on the podcast and had some Pentecostals actually have some.
02:49Have a another Pentecostal guy that I'm working on trying to get him on here. I've got friends and all of these movements that I'm exploring their histories and their, their very critical information that has been hidden. Yeah. And interestingly, most, most of them are curious to find out, you know, what has been hidden for me.
03:08But then you find these groups that if I mentioned one name, that's in one of these connections that as I'm connecting Branham all the way to Bethel, I can mention a name and you can watch all of their cult of personality. Just go berserk. Oh, no, he's connecting this figure. And it's not necessarily that I'm saying anything bad about the figure. It's just that it is a node in my big schema of connections.
03:33So this, this was a way that I could publish that and kind of show how all of this came to be. And I think, I think it's eyeopening for a lot of people.
03:43Oh, man, it's so eyeopening because many of us, including myself, did not, were not taught that there was that direct connection there. We were taught in fragments. And what I mean by that is, for example, I'll tell you a couple examples here. So, and I've mentioned this before, but God's Generals, right? Being a, you know, one of the big sort of anchors to the BSSM education curriculum there.
04:07And I think they still read that book in BSSM, I believe last I heard. And of course you get the gamut with the God's Generals of all of these quote unquote heroes of the movements that went before us and then led us to where we are now.
04:23So you had that as the anchor and then you also had the William Branham blue books. And we had to read the first six of those in the BSSM. And I actually heard from a more recent BSSM alumni graduate recently that they no longer, according to him, they no longer include those books in the curriculum, which actually surprised me.
04:47I don't know what the reason or decision was there. If they're trying to sort of put William Branham in more of the backseat, I'm not sure, because even recently you can pull up clips of people like Chris Ballatin and others talking about going after or receiving the mantle of William Branham.
05:05And so it's still there. I just think that they maybe have sort of couched it or put it sort of in the backseat a little more. So we had those books. And then we also had John G. Lake's book, or I don't know that he, I can't remember, did he write that book?
05:21I'm talking about the real thick book, John G. Lake, his whole story of healings and really all of his biography. So those were the three anchors that directly tied BSSM curriculum back to those movements.
05:38So in my mind, it was a fragmented thing. I had no idea, though, that those predecessors, as it were, were the people that sort of architected these movements that we now live in.
05:52So back to your documentary, I just found it to be super, super helpful. It definitely helped connect more dots for me that I was unaware of, like that kid you mentioned in there. I forgot the kid's name now, but there was a kid that you highlighted in the video that was sort of elevated at a young age.
06:12David Walker.
06:13David Walker.
06:14And elevated is the key word, man. He was using levitation as part of his ploy to attract the Christians.
06:20I was going to ask you about that. So, you know, and if you've, and I've mentioned this before, I kind of am interested in, I've always been interested in magic. Like, and what I mean by magic is magic that's not like supernatural magic, like more of the David Blaine or Chris Angel or David Copperfield kind of people.
06:40So, and there are street magicians who do that kind of stuff. Like they actually can, and I saw one on Twitter the other day, this dude was literally like he was able to remove his legs from his body and it looks so real.
06:55But then they had a camera angle from the back and they showed the whole like get up. He had to put on, it was like he strapped into this. There's like a frame, but you can't see it from the front.
07:07So is that what this guy did or is there any evidence about how he was able to sort of lift up off the stage like that?
07:15You know, I get asked that question so many times. I wasn't there, so I didn't get to see it. But like you, I love magic. I love being tricked as long as I'm not being manipulated while I'm tricked.
07:28Correct.
07:29That's the difference, right?
07:30Total difference.
07:31This was totally manipulation of crowds.
07:33Yeah.
07:34So Chris Angel, you mentioned. One of my favorites, I used to love that, what was it called, Mind Freak, that show that he had.
07:41Yes, yeah. I saw him in Vegas live, by the way.
07:44Oh, wow. I would love to, I've never seen him live. I would love it.
07:47It's intense.
07:48I love this kind of thing and I love trying to figure it out because I know when I'm watching a magician, I know I'm being tricked.
07:54Totally.
07:55How did they do it?
07:56Yes.
07:58One of the tricks that Chris Angel has, and he's pretty good at it, is levitation.
08:02Okay.
08:03He'll walk down the stairs to a crowd and then just suddenly float up into the sky.
08:07Wow.
08:08People are wondering, what in the world is he doing?
08:10Now, there's different ways in which they do this.
08:12Okay.
08:13But he, one time in one of his episodes, he was showing exactly how he did it at ground level.
08:20And he did it in just the same exact setting that little David Walker was at.
08:26Okay.
08:27He's standing in front of a crowd and there was a chair behind him, just like little David.
08:31There was a chair behind little David.
08:33And what they do is they have a special shoe that's made that is attached to the leg of the pants.
08:40Okay.
08:41And you can slide your shoe out and bend your knee and put it up onto the chair and lift up and the shoe is still hanging.
08:49So it looks like you're levitating.
08:50I see.
08:51But you're actually just using the muscles of your leg.
08:53Now, again, I wasn't there.
08:55I didn't see it.
08:56But this is an actual trick that Chris Angel explained how he did it.
09:00So as you explain that, it is what I saw on Twitter.
09:06This dude was all dressed up.
09:08It was like the Tin Man from Wizard of Oz.
09:10It was like all silver.
09:11And if you've ever been to San Francisco, unfortunately, the dude that used to do this, I understand, passed away.
09:17But there's the Bushman in San Francisco right there on the Embarcadero at the Fisherman's Wharf.
09:22Walked by him so many times I can't even count when I lived in California.
09:26Well, the Bushman would jump out from the bush.
09:32He was dressed up like a bush.
09:33Okay.
09:34And here he is on the sidewalk.
09:36You know, all these hundreds of people just walking down the sidewalk.
09:39They're just looking at the Fisherman's Wharf and wanting to get their San Francisco sourdough bread and this, that, and the other.
09:46And here comes the Bushman.
09:47He jumps out.
09:48And you don't see that the bush is the man.
09:51He jumps out.
09:52And it's so funny.
09:53You watch people jump literally into the Embarcadero Street with this oncoming traffic.
09:58So you got the Bushman and then next to him.
10:02It's just so funny just thinking back.
10:04You got the Tin Man.
10:05And so when I saw this video, it reminded me of the Tin Man that used to hang out in San Francisco.
10:14And he's dressed up like this silver suit.
10:17And they had the two camera angles just like you're talking about.
10:20And behind him, I don't think they had a chair in his specific suit.
10:27But it was what you described.
10:29There's like a pole and then attached to his pants.
10:33But anyway, they explained.
10:34They showed all that.
10:35So it checks out kind of like what you're describing here.
10:38I think they probably evolved in their technology since the 1940s, John.
10:43So now they've got a better suit that you can put on or something.
10:47Yeah, I've seen that same trick.
10:49And I think he's holding a cane.
10:51And then what happens is up his sleeve, he's got a pole that's attached to the cane.
10:55So it's crazy funny.
10:57But if you think about how all of this evolved.
11:00So Branham is attracting the crowds during an era in which the spiritualist movement had swept through the United States.
11:09Everybody is fascinated with mediums and spirits and wizards and all of these different things that aren't Christian, right?
11:17They're actually anti-Christian.
11:19So Branham comes along, and he does this by learning from his predecessor, Roy E. Davis.
11:26Davis came in, same kind of thing.
11:28He had some gimmicks that were based off of spiritualism.
11:31Well, this attracted the crowds, and they attracted all of these people into a version of Christianity that mixed and blended the spiritualist aspects of talking, communication with the dead and divination, all of this stuff, all of the things that are abominations in the Old Testament.
11:51You're reading through the Old Testament.
11:53It's condemning everything they're doing.
11:56But they've bundled it up and branded it with pseudo-Christianity.
12:01But little David represents the worst extreme of this because they've actually taken magician stage acts, and that they're calling Christianity, and he's levitating with the power of God.
12:14When you think about Bethel, and they call it Hogwarts, which is kind of funny.
12:19But if you think about what's happening there and then think about this history, all of it suddenly makes sense.
12:25Yeah, and just to go back for a second to the point you made when you were talking about how you love magicians, and I do too.
12:31I've always been fascinated with magicians.
12:33Even as a kid, I had a magic trick, whatever you call it, kit, try to impress people.
12:38But see, that's the thing.
12:39That's the difference is when you pay for a ticket to go see a magician, whether it's Vegas or whatever, David Blaine, I got to see him live in Charlotte.
12:50You pay money knowing that you're going to be entertained, that this is a professional that specializes in illusions.
12:59Or in David Blaine's case, it's not just illusions.
13:02It's also stunts of endurance that he actually trains for this stuff.
13:07And he's actually doing this stuff.
13:09He did a record amount of time in a container of ice, ice water.
13:16I think he still has the world record for holding his breath the longest underwater for 17 minutes.
13:21That's not actual magic.
13:23That's not an illusion.
13:24That is really something that's being done by a human.
13:27So one category over here, we got magicians and entertainers that you know you're going in and you're paying money to be entertained.
13:36Right.
13:37And you're suspending your belief when you go in there because, hey, I'm I'm getting entertained.
13:42That's one thing.
13:44Right.
13:45But then you put that same type of illusion in the context of a Christian church or Christian worship service or a tent meeting like they used to do back in the day.
13:57That's a whole different can of worms.
14:00And people are not going in expecting to be deceived or manipulated.
14:07And that that is that is the crux of why this is so evil.
14:11One of the reasons one of the many reasons.
14:13So going like bringing this forward to Bethel.
14:19You know, one of the things I thought that we could talk about was it's not really along the lines of magicians or magic tricks, but it does touch on that because of the way they recently did this Bethel communion revival on April the 5th at Bethel at the baseball field.
14:39And I'll give a shout out to Richard Moore, who has been covering this at length in depth.
14:45He actually did three different two or three hour videos on this, where he actually critique the entire video feed of this event that happened at Bethel.
14:56And it was led by Lou Engel, who, if you're familiar with Lou Engel, he was sort of the architect behind the Justice House of Prayer, very connected to IHOP over the years.
15:09And he also did the call, which was a series of events where thousands and thousands of people would pray and fast in stadiums.
15:17And so he's done that over the years.
15:20He's known for pushing 40 day fasting.
15:23He's also very connected to Bethel, very connected Morningstar.
15:27So he and Dean Briggs, and Dean Briggs is a former leader of IHOPKC, who actually spoke out about the abuse that Mike Bickle perpetrated.
15:40He spoke out publicly in a church service at Forerunner Christian Fellowship in Kansas City.
15:47So to his credit, Dean Briggs did speak out publicly about Mike Bickle, but he's still very much involved in pushing the NAR teachings and leading these events.
15:59So Dean Briggs, Lou Engel, Bill Johnson, and Chris Vallotsen all came together, and they had this Bethel communion revival event on April the 5th.
16:11And it was at the Bethel baseball field, and it was actually a six hour event.
16:15And the whole premise was based on this series of prophecies and dreams that Lou Engel and Benny Johnson received.
16:25And it had to do with the Sacramento River, and I don't have all of these specifics of the prophecy in front of me.
16:32But the essence of it was this, that the Sacramento River would turn red, which would represent the blood of Jesus.
16:42And it would flow all the way down California, and this would initiate a revival.
16:49And the way that they were going to release this revival is they get everybody together, and they have a communion service.
16:59And by doing this communion service, we're going to release the healing.
17:04We're going to release revival.
17:05We're going to release salvation and all of the supernatural manifestations of the kingdom of God.
17:11And so they did that.
17:13They actually had a six hour event, and it was a lot of worship.
17:18There was a lot of declarations.
17:20You can go on Bethel's YouTube channel and watch it.
17:23It's six hours.
17:24I've seen most of it.
17:25I've seen about five out of it so far from Richard Moore.
17:30And there's a lot in there.
17:32There's a ton of stuff in there that needs to be talked about, and I've got a few things I'd like to highlight.
17:38But that's kind of the big picture of what happened.
17:41And they believe that through this ritual, through this practice of communion, that they are going to be the brokers of power and release this revival throughout California and then the rest of the nation.
17:57So I had never heard of this until you actually brought it up this morning.
18:01First time I had heard.
18:03I did some brief Google searches to see what this was.
18:07And as I was hoping it would be so that we could talk through it, this was more of a spiritual activation than it was communion.
18:17This is more about kind of like a New Age thing where they're bringing down the power through communion.
18:24And what's interesting historically about that?
18:29I grew up in Branham's church.
18:31My grandfather had taken it over.
18:33And if you have ever been to – it's not even open anymore.
18:38They've moved to another building.
18:40But if you were ever here whenever my grandfather led it, it was like a wax museum, man.
18:46Every single thing that Branham did to the letter, my grandfather did to the letter.
18:52Every ceremony, every – they had communion.
18:55It was much like Bethel, I would describe it.
18:58It was a spiritual activation.
19:00It wasn't what communion is intended to be.
19:05And I never knew this.
19:07After I left the cult and I went to other churches, they had communion.
19:12And they call it different things.
19:14Some call it just simply the Lord's Supper.
19:16But what they have in the normal churches represented more of what the biblical practice was.
19:24This was all about remembering what Christ had done.
19:27And it was all about coming together in fellowship.
19:29And when you come together in fellowship, come in remembrance of me, Jesus Christ.
19:34So the first time I experienced that, I was like, well, this is dry.
19:39What is this that we're doing?
19:40There is no power.
19:41There is no mystical glory coming down from the heavens.
19:45And my grandfather would – he would give this little speech that I'm pretty sure
19:51he said that it came exactly from what Branham said.
19:55But it was basically that the communion was a showdown.
19:59It was a battle of the forces of good and evil right here in the building.
20:03Interesting.
20:04And if you – he focused heavily on the passage that said,
20:10whosoever eats unworthily, he focused on that in such a way that
20:16if you were to eat it with any little thought of sin in your life,
20:21you were doomed to hell from that moment forward.
20:24He scared the bejesus out of you, especially as a kid.
20:27And so – and it gets real quiet when he's doing it.
20:31And he's talking real slow to manipulate your head.
20:34And you're going to die forever if you do this unworthily, my friend.
20:39And so the fear of a false god was in your head.
20:44Well, then everybody would go through.
20:47They'd line up.
20:49We interestingly drink out of these little –
20:52I think they do this in some of the other churches,
20:54but little vials of – little tiny glasses filled with wine in a cult
21:00that teaches you that to drink wine is sin.
21:02So he's first telling you don't eat the wafers if you're sin,
21:08but oh, by the way, we're going to take this little sin
21:10and we're going to ignore it while we do this, right?
21:12It's okay to do it while you're doing communion.
21:15It's crazy, man.
21:17And then – so after all this is said and done,
21:20everybody's gone through their fear for the night,
21:23my grandfather would stand – the communion wafers and drinks
21:28were on this weird shelf-like platform that had these poles
21:33that he could stand and hold like this.
21:35And he would lean forward and he'd say,
21:37now this that remains shall be burned before the dawn of another day.
21:42And just scare the crap out of you, man.
21:45The wafers themselves have some kind of spiritual power.
21:48So this was – apparently this was exactly like Branham did it.
21:52So all throughout Latter Rain, anybody who visited his church,
21:55they're seeing this and they're seeing that communion
21:58is more than just fellowship like the other churches have.
22:02The other churches have gotten cold and formal.
22:05We need to bring down the power.
22:07This is a spiritual battle when we take communion.
22:10So to hear you describe that, John, it's like I'm going back to
22:14my days in Bethel.
22:16And it wasn't like Bethel had communion a lot,
22:19but it was very much similar to what you described,
22:23although I don't remember anybody standing up and doing that at the end.
22:26How did you put it?
22:28It's going to be burned.
22:30I don't remember that part.
22:32That's probably a little extra that y'all had that we didn't have.
22:36But it just goes to show like very, very similar repackaging,
22:43rinse and repeat now in Bethel.
22:47And I just want to talk about some of the loadedness, the loaded language.
22:52It's not just loaded language, but it is literally a psychological framework
22:57and a psychological frame of mind that is a follower of these movements
23:02that you get into.
23:03I was watching this stuff, these videos that Richard Moore did,
23:07where he had the video feed on one side and Richard's commentating
23:11on the other side.
23:12And I'm just like, I feel like I'm getting triggered just by watching this
23:16because it just brings back all of the, it brings up all of the hype,
23:22that sort of the psyching up, like you got to get yourself psyched up
23:27to make these declarations, to bring heaven to earth.
23:30And there's just so much loaded spiritual, like you said, activation,
23:35but spiritual, it's like spiritual activity or spiritual,
23:41I've got to like pull down and make this happen.
23:44And I want to talk about that for a minute.
23:46I think that this is a specific example of the upside down false teaching
23:52that we're seeing here.
23:54It is actually false.
23:56It's not what the Bible teaches when it comes to the gospel.
24:00And I think that you've helped me understand that this actually traces
24:05its way back to the Manifest Sons of God doctrine because deep down
24:11embedded in this belief system is the belief that we are,
24:16if not little gods walking around, we're pretty close.
24:21And by extension, if you are little gods, little deities walking around,
24:26then it stands to reason that you have the ability to unlock heaven
24:31and bring that stuff down here on earth.
24:33And really, if I could distill that, I think what this is,
24:37is it's teaching people that they are brokers.
24:40They're like brokers of heaven.
24:43But the fact of the matter is this is all about what Jesus did.
24:50The true gospel is all about what Jesus did when he gave his life
24:55as a ransom for many.
24:56It's not about we go in, we get together,
24:59and we're somehow going to pull this stuff down and release it to the earth.
25:03That's not the gospel.
25:05That is a performance hamster wheel religion.
25:08It is not being saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.
25:13And whether you believe in God or you don't, for those that do,
25:17what we're taught in the Bible is the antithesis of this.
25:22This practice of I've got to, I've got to,
25:27it's like the sun and the moon and stars have to align.
25:30We all have to get together and we literally have to yell and scream so loud
25:34and make these decrees and declarations.
25:36And at what point is it enough?
25:38At what point have you finally decreed enough
25:42and you've taken communion enough to where enough power has been released
25:47to affect a change in the world?
25:51And it goes a step further.
25:53It's not just we're going to have this communion revival event.
25:57We're now going to go out into Reading.
26:00We're going to go out into California.
26:02We're going to go out into wherever you are in the world,
26:04and we're literally going to take over the seven mountains.
26:07And you see how one simple belief from the Manifest Sons of God doctrine
26:15extends and then becomes like an actual practical outworking
26:21of how people live their lives in their careers,
26:25in entertainment, in their businesses,
26:29and even like city council in Reading where I think they have two,
26:34I think two or three members of city council are Bethel members now,
26:38or they go to Bethel.
26:40So that's a whole nother sort of rabbit trail.
26:43But that's kind of like the practical outworkings of how this stuff happens.
26:48One of the really interesting things that they have copied from Branham
26:52is very powerful, and I don't think people have fully grasped
26:56what this is and why and how.
26:59Whenever I talk about the spiritual warfare
27:02and how much of it is coming from Branham
27:06and how much of it is really wrong,
27:08you watch the comment feeds kind of explode
27:10because in the Bible it does talk about spiritual warfare.
27:13But what they have developed,
27:16we go back to the Criss Angel type of spiritual warfare,
27:19what they've developed is not the same as what is being described in the Bible.
27:23And this has a strategic purpose.
27:26So Branham invented the idea,
27:29or copied others I should say.
27:31I don't think he invented this.
27:33But he helped support the idea
27:36that we were always engaged in spiritual warfare
27:39no matter what we do.
27:41If you go to the post office and somebody takes your parking space
27:44as you're trying to pull in, well that's the devil.
27:46He's gotten your way.
27:48That's a hyper-extreme example.
27:50But you're really thinking in this way.
27:52You're thinking angels and demons everywhere you go.
27:56And the reason why that is strategic
27:58is because along with that doctrine
28:01comes this notion, this false notion,
28:04that if you study the other side
28:06and learn what is a demon,
28:08learn what is New Age, what is spiritualism,
28:11what are all these things that are evil,
28:13if you study it, you might accidentally catch the demon.
28:16Because, oh by the way,
28:18in this latter rain slash beyond movement,
28:21Jesus is not powerful enough to protect you.
28:24That's one of the false notions that got planted in your head.
28:27So people are afraid to study the other side.
28:31I, after I left, I became no longer afraid.
28:35I've studied things that,
28:37it's a little shocking to me, exist.
28:40But one of the things,
28:42it's not shocking this part,
28:44but I studied the New Age religion some
28:47and it's really funny if you look at it
28:49because if you talk to a person
28:51who is really in this New Age movement,
28:54they say it's not a religion,
28:55this is just a philosophy and a way of life.
28:57We're one with the earth, that kind of thing.
29:00But what they're doing isn't Christian.
29:04It is, in essence, it is a religion in its essence.
29:07But what has happened is
29:10because of the structure that Branham created,
29:13this fictional fantasy magic show structure,
29:16they've created this idea that
29:19we can take New Age ideas like activation
29:22and when we do this communion ceremony,
29:25we're activating, we're bringing down
29:27the glory of the spirit, et cetera.
29:29We're doing it.
29:30It's not that the Holy Spirit has moved
29:32and he's come.
29:33We're initiating it.
29:35That's New Age activation.
29:37And if somebody were to just open up New Age,
29:41I think you can even go to the Wikipedia article
29:44and just pull up and read through some of the comments,
29:46you'll be shocked at how much of it
29:48is like Bethel 101.
29:51This is part of my personal deconstruction journey
29:54and you forget about a lot of the stuff
29:57that you were exposed to
29:58until somebody starts talking about it
30:00and you're like, oh my gosh, yeah, that too.
30:02Just add it to the list.
30:03So I'll give you another example.
30:05But first, to your point, absolutely.
30:08I have been listening a lot lately
30:11to some of the more of the cessationist podcasters
30:15like Justin Peters, Steve Cozart.
30:19I believe they all would identify as cessationists,
30:22meaning they don't believe that
30:24the gifts of the spirit are for today.
30:26And other people like Richard Moore.
30:29I don't know if Richard Moore would say he's a cessationist.
30:33He seems to me that he does lean that direction.
30:37So I've been learning a lot.
30:38I've been getting a lot out of their takes
30:41on just looking at the Bible
30:43and like comparing the stuff
30:46that we were indoctrinated in, you know,
30:49in Bethel years ago.
30:52And it's just starkly different.
30:54So here's an example of something
30:56I've identified in my own life
30:58that I was exposed to that I, like,
31:01categorically, I know it's New Age.
31:04And it was talked about in the Physics of Heaven book.
31:06It was written by Judy Franklin.
31:09Judy Franklin was one of the authors.
31:11And then I forgot the other author,
31:13but I think Bill Johnson wrote the foreword,
31:15if I'm remembering correctly.
31:17Check me out on that.
31:19But that book came under fire
31:21and has been criticized quite a bit
31:23because it's very similar
31:25to a lot of the New Age practices,
31:28one of which is trips to heaven.
31:32So this is something that
31:34when I was at BSSM,
31:36this was a type of practice
31:38or an event you could go to.
31:41It was like after hours.
31:43And I think she even did it.
31:46Judy Franklin did it
31:47during some of the sessions at BSSM.
31:49So what they do is they clear out
31:50all the chairs out of the sanctuary.
31:53I don't know if they still do it in the sanctuary,
31:54but back then it was in the sanctuary.
31:56All the chairs get cleared out.
31:58And you go in,
31:59and everybody lays down on the floor.
32:01You got 500 people,
32:02800 people laying on the floor.
32:05Judy's up in the front,
32:07and she leads people into a trip to heaven.
32:11And it's almost like a visualization
32:15of going to heaven
32:16and visualizing Papa God.
32:19And you're going in,
32:20you're going to see the throne of God
32:22and all this stuff.
32:24And, you know,
32:26I don't know that I experienced that
32:29like legitimately
32:30when I was laying down on the floor.
32:32I don't recall seeing,
32:34you know, like the throne of God
32:36or having some kind of encounter at that time.
32:40But now looking back,
32:41and I remember just hanging out with friends,
32:43like we would try to do this stuff too.
32:45We'll be like,
32:46oh, let's take a trip to heaven.
32:47That was just kind of like common,
32:48like just what you do in your free time at Bethel
32:51is like we're going to hang out as friends
32:53and take trips to heaven.
32:55Now I look back on that
32:57and having been more informed
32:59about where that stuff came from,
33:01I actually am convinced now
33:03it is astral projection.
33:05It's astral projection,
33:06which is I think a new age practice,
33:10but probably even worse.
33:12I think there might be
33:13even some more dark connotations there
33:16associated with it.
33:17So I don't want to have anything
33:19to do with that anymore.
33:20If you do astral projection,
33:21go for it.
33:22I'm just saying for me,
33:23like I look back on that time
33:26and I'm like, okay,
33:27this is not the kind of stuff
33:30that the Bible teaches.
33:31Like this is definitely not biblical.
33:34And if you're looking to refine your faith
33:36and sort of like chop off stuff
33:38that's not biblical,
33:39which I'm trying to do,
33:41and like reconstruct,
33:42which is sort of where I'm at in my journey,
33:45like those are the kind of things
33:46I want to sort of leave in the dust
33:49and I don't subscribe to that anymore.
33:53Have you ever wondered
33:54how the Pentecostal movement started
33:56or how the progression
33:57of modern Pentecostalism
33:59transitioned through the latter reign,
34:01Charismatic and other fringe movements
34:04into the New Apostolic Reformation?
34:06You can learn this and more
34:08on William Branham Historical Research's website
34:11William-Branham.org
34:13On the books page of the website,
34:15you can find the compiled research
34:17of John Collins,
34:18Charles Paisley,
34:19Stephen Montgomery,
34:21John McKinnon,
34:22and others
34:23with links to the paper,
34:24audio,
34:25and digital versions of each book.
34:27You can also find resources
34:29and documentation
34:30on various people and topics
34:32related to those movements.
34:34If you want to contribute to the cause,
34:36you can support the podcast
34:38by clicking the contribute button at the top.
34:40And as always,
34:41be sure to like and subscribe
34:43to the audio or video version
34:45that you're listening to or watching.
34:47On behalf of
34:48William Branham Historical Research,
34:50we want to thank you for your support.
34:52What you're describing
34:53goes a little bit beyond New Age,
34:55and then you start to feel really uncomfortable.
34:58And this is the part in which
35:00if you're a Christian who believes
35:03that there is an evil spirit
35:05that is swaying all of this
35:07away from Christianity,
35:08this is where it really gets problematic.
35:10Because what you're describing
35:14is basically the experience over the doctrine.
35:18I go and I have an experience,
35:20and because of this,
35:21I've opened a gateway to the supernatural.
35:24That's what happens in the occult,
35:26not in Christianity.
35:27You don't open gateways in Christianity.
35:30But they have so much focused
35:32on personal experience,
35:34and how did John Wimber call it?
35:36The feels.
35:37The feels, yeah.
35:38You know, the way in which
35:41you've taken experience over doctrine
35:44to open up a channel to God,
35:46you have to wonder and question,
35:48well, which God is this?
35:49Because that's not how it's being described
35:51in the Bible.
35:53And then you look at the fruits of that.
35:56You've got all the trances
35:57and people barking like dogs
35:59and things that you just can't really
36:02associate with Christianity.
36:04Interestingly, Wimber,
36:06towards the end of his life,
36:07I'm told he wiped his hands of this
36:08because of those things.
36:10So he saw that he had opened this gateway,
36:12and he saw that whatever happened, happened.
36:16And my opinion is he opened the floodgates
36:19because now people were copying this
36:21and it turned into this big mess
36:22that exists today.
36:24But this is very similar.
36:26If you study the occult,
36:27this is very similar to the way
36:29in which they bring on a trance in the occult.
36:32And people get so much focused
36:35on the experience that they have this
36:38almost out-of-body, out-of-mind experience.
36:42They're entering into a trance.
36:44And if you compare what's happening in the occult
36:46with what's happening in these movements,
36:48even though they're using the name Jesus,
36:50they're experiencing many of the same things.
36:53It's an altered psychological state
36:56that they're entering.
36:57But again, if you're a Christian,
36:58you have to wonder,
36:59are they not summoning some sort of a demon?
37:02That's the scary part, too.
37:04And this is how Bethel would explain this.
37:07When people brought objections,
37:10not that I remember there being big objections
37:13from individual people,
37:15but it was a part of the teaching that
37:19one of the...
37:21How do I say this?
37:23Bethel's approach was
37:25so many of these things were hijacked
37:27by the dark side,
37:29and they were actually God-given
37:32types of manifestations of the supernatural.
37:35So the way they put it is
37:37the devil hijacked it, right?
37:39So, for example,
37:40I'll give you an example.
37:41Divination, okay?
37:43Which, divination is in the Bible,
37:46and it's practiced by people who
37:48were not using the Spirit of God.
37:51They were using another source.
37:54And it was a way to obtain knowledge
37:59that was largely unknown
38:01about events or people,
38:03and then given to people,
38:04kind of like fortune-telling.
38:06So Bethel's teaching was
38:08divination is an example of how
38:10the dark side or the enemy hijacked that.
38:13But you can't have a counterfeit
38:16if there's not a genuine, right?
38:18So that was the teaching.
38:19So now, many years removed from that,
38:23I look back and I say,
38:24okay, is that true?
38:27And this is something I'm literally
38:28working through right now in my journey.
38:30I'm trying to pick this stuff apart
38:32in my head.
38:33And I'm curious what people that are
38:35listening and watching think about this.
38:38But you take something like divination,
38:42and they would say, Bethel would say,
38:44the genuine manifestation of that
38:46is the prophetic gift, right?
38:48It's the gift of prophecy.
38:49It's the ability to prophesy
38:50from the Spirit of God,
38:51from the unction of the Holy Spirit.
38:53And I actually, for one,
38:55I believe that prophecy is real.
38:57There is a real prophecy that exists.
38:59Now, the vast majority of what we see
39:02I think in the charismatic,
39:04hypercharismatic movement
39:05is not biblical prophecy.
39:07It is something else,
39:09whether it's human contrived
39:11or from a dark source
39:13or a combination of the two, I don't know.
39:15But anyway, I'm trying to get through
39:17this in my head here.
39:20That was how Bethel explained it.
39:22So back to like taking trips to heaven,
39:25they would say, if you were to tell them
39:28these trips to heaven are astral projection,
39:31they would say, nope, it's not.
39:32This is a genuine manifestation
39:34of something that was hijacked
39:36by the New Age and the occult.
39:38So I struggle with that, though,
39:41because I think that is based
39:43on a presupposition that
39:45just because something exists
39:47that the alternative has to be genuine.
39:51But is that, what do you think?
39:54I mean, is that a presupposition?
39:57Is that coming to the table
39:59with a bias?
40:01And so what I've kind of done
40:03is I've just taken a step back
40:04and I said, okay, is this in the Bible?
40:07Is it practiced in the Bible,
40:09specifically in the New Testament?
40:10Are we taught to do this
40:12in the New Testament?
40:13And if not, I think it's pretty safe
40:15to go ahead and throw it out
40:16and assume that it's probably not good
40:21to practice this stuff.
40:23You know what I mean?
40:24But I'm curious what your thoughts are on that.
40:27What do you think about that type of approach
40:31that Buffell does where they say
40:34because there's a counterfeit
40:35there has to be a genuine
40:36of that same thing?
40:37Well, what comes to mind for me
40:39is a trigger because that was
40:40Branhamism 101.
40:42If there's a genuine,
40:44if there's a counterfeit,
40:45there must be a genuine.
40:46He said this over and over and over again.
40:49So my thoughts are complex
40:52and still forming.
40:54I'm still working through my framework,
40:56but I think I can sum it up
40:58best like this.
41:00Along with that doctrine
41:02that Branham said this,
41:03he also would always go back
41:05to the passage in the Bible
41:06that said,
41:07greater works shall you do.
41:09And I'm certain you've heard Bethel
41:12use this because this is copied
41:14throughout the NAR, right?
41:16After I left the Branham movement,
41:19I read the Bible over and over
41:21and kept trying to wash
41:22all of this out of my head.
41:23And there came a point in which
41:26I realized that, number one,
41:28the King James Version,
41:29the old Queen's English,
41:31isn't really explaining things
41:32in a way that I can understand it.
41:34It was written for the 1600s.
41:37There are words like kidney
41:39that's used to describe
41:41something that's not a kidney,
41:42but I think of a kidney today.
41:44That's funny.
41:45You can go look that up.
41:46It's kind of a funny study.
41:48Another example is the rib.
41:53Eve was taken from Adam's rib.
41:55Well, the ancient word,
41:57ancient usage of the word rib
41:59could also mean the rib of a hill,
42:01the side of a hill.
42:02And so it's more like it came
42:05from the side of, you know.
42:07There's a lot of different examples
42:09like this that the language
42:10just isn't quite right.
42:11So I went beyond that
42:12and started studying
42:14some of the other versions.
42:16And I came to a point in which
42:18I realized, wait a minute,
42:19the way we're taught to read it
42:21is incorrect.
42:22We were taught with such literalism
42:25that to read a translation
42:27that doesn't have the same
42:28literal King James words
42:30is now offensive to me.
42:32So I went back to studying
42:35the interlinear version
42:36where I could read and see
42:37what is the Greek word used
42:38and what does this mean.
42:40And I went through
42:41some of my trigger passages.
42:43One of these is
42:44Greater Work So You Do.
42:45Branham taught that his miracles
42:47were greater than Jesus.
42:48He said this outright, plainly.
42:50I'm bigger than Jesus.
42:52I did more miracles
42:53than Jesus did
42:54in his entire ministry.
42:55That's a phrase of Branham.
42:57And so he taught people
43:00that they can become
43:01miniature gods.
43:02And he went back to this verse.
43:04But if you study
43:05the Greek words of that verse,
43:08the meanings of the words
43:10are far more complex.
43:11But one of the words,
43:13and I can't remember
43:14which one it is,
43:15but it talks about
43:16greater in scope.
43:18And it's not necessarily
43:19talking about
43:20greater miracles shall you do,
43:22but you're going to do
43:23greater things
43:24because I've taught you
43:25a better way.
43:26In other words,
43:27I, Jesus, have came down
43:29and I've shown you
43:30a better way to live
43:31than you had lived in the past.
43:33And because you're going
43:34to set the example
43:35for future generations,
43:37future generations
43:38will become far better
43:39than we are today
43:40if you read that passage
43:42in its essence.
43:44But Branhamism taught
43:45that this little God's notion,
43:47greater works shall you do,
43:49and taught that we could become
43:52little divine beings.
43:54And that's why
43:55these schools like Bethel,
43:57that's why it exists.
43:58It's training you
43:59how to become this divine being.
44:01But what's interesting there is
44:04while that structure was taught
44:06in Branhamism and in Bethel,
44:08what you find is
44:10it's flipped upside down
44:11from what Jesus had.
44:13Jesus said,
44:14greater shall you do.
44:16In other words,
44:17I'm teaching you a better way.
44:18You're going to go out
44:19and do them.
44:20And through the things
44:21that you do,
44:22the good deeds that you do,
44:23you are showing yourself
44:25to be more like me.
44:27But in these supernatural schools
44:29of ministry,
44:30and that was copied largely
44:32from Branham's deliverance seminars
44:35that he had with Lindsay,
44:37what they taught
44:38was a hierarchy.
44:40There's not a single rank
44:41and file member
44:42that can do
44:43what the elders can do
44:45because the elders
44:46have more greater works
44:48than the rank and file members.
44:51So there's a hierarchy
44:52that they'll never achieve.
44:54And in doing so,
44:55you've created levels
44:56of miniature gods.
44:58So you've got the rank
44:59and file miniature gods,
45:00but at the top,
45:01you've got the central figure
45:02miniature god.
45:03Darrell Bock
45:04Oh, my gosh.
45:05I'm so glad you brought that up
45:06because it was one of my points
45:07I wanted to hit.
45:08It's like we compared notes
45:09or something,
45:10but we didn't.
45:11So the whole concept
45:13of the hierarchy
45:17is very visible
45:19if you go back
45:20and you look at the video
45:21on Bethel's YouTube channel.
45:23It's a six-hour video.
45:24You don't have to watch
45:25the whole thing.
45:26Just flip forward
45:27and look at the camera view.
45:30And they've got a stage, right?
45:32You can't have an NAR event
45:33without a stage,
45:34of course,
45:35speakers,
45:36got a worship team.
45:37But in front of the stage,
45:38if you pay attention,
45:40there's a table.
45:41It looked like a wood table
45:44and it had,
45:45I don't know,
45:4610 chairs around it.
45:47Not commoner chairs,
45:48but the nicer chairs,
45:49I think.
45:51And I think the table's probably
45:5412 or 15 feet long.
45:56It's a very nice table,
45:57but there are specific people
46:00who the seats are reserved for.
46:02And you'll notice
46:04about three hours in,
46:05they finally get to take in communion
46:07and there's a whole bunch
46:09of lead up and build up to it.
46:12But Lou is there at the table
46:14and next to him is Bill
46:16and Chris is standing there
46:17and several other people
46:19who we know and are friends with
46:22and quite close with,
46:25right there at the,
46:27they're at the table.
46:29But what's crazy is before that,
46:31Richard Moore highlights this in detail.
46:34They actually did,
46:36they called it a reenactment, John,
46:38of Revelation 5.
46:40So if you're not familiar
46:41with Revelation 5,
46:43that is the passage in the Bible
46:45where it describes the 24 elders
46:48that are gathered around the throne.
46:50Okay?
46:52So basically what they did
46:55is they conflated
46:58the 24 elders
47:00around the throne of God,
47:02worshiping him night and day,
47:04and they conflated that
47:07with this communion revival,
47:10communion thing that they're doing
47:12around the table.
47:13And the elders,
47:15the leaders at the event at Bethel,
47:17literally reenacted
47:20as if they're the elders
47:22gathered around the throne.
47:24Okay?
47:25They called it a reenactment
47:27and by doing that,
47:28they're releasing the spiritual,
47:32the supernatural, whatever.
47:34But the point of this is
47:36there is a definite hierarchy
47:38that is visible
47:39all the way throughout this crowd.
47:41The common people
47:42are not allowed to approach the stage.
47:44The common people
47:45are not allowed to sit at the table.
47:47I would love to see what would happen
47:48if somebody tried to go sit down at the table.
47:51Like, that would be so funny.
47:53Like, if just somebody decided to run up.
47:55I mean, I'm sure the security,
47:56Bethel has a security team.
47:58I'm sure the security people
47:59would carry them away.
48:00But there is a definite hierarchy
48:04and here's how it works.
48:06The higher up you are in the organization,
48:09the closer the proximity you have
48:12to the Lord's table.
48:14And so your proximity
48:16is a direct function
48:18of your position
48:20in that organization's hierarchy.
48:23So that's why the who's who,
48:25you know, close to the table,
48:26whereas the people that are less important
48:28are further away.
48:29And you know what this reminds me of, John?
48:32And I'm not knocking
48:33the Catholic Church at all,
48:34because there's a lot of great people
48:36in the Catholic Church.
48:37But it is reminiscent
48:39of the structure of the cathedrals
48:41in these temples,
48:43not temples,
48:44what do they call cathedrals?
48:45I guess they're cathedrals,
48:47where if you're a common person,
48:50if you're a lay person,
48:51there's a certain place that you go.
48:53You can't go past.
48:57What is that called?
48:58That gate back there
48:59where the pulpit is.
49:01It's kind of like a courtroom, right?
49:02Like you can't go past that gate
49:05if you're not an attorney
49:06or a judge in the courtroom.
49:07You got to sit back here
49:08with the common people.
49:09So there's a separation
49:11between the laity,
49:13the stupid people,
49:15the peons,
49:16and the people that are smarter than you,
49:18the people that need to interpret
49:19the Bible for you,
49:20the people that are there
49:23as your intermediary
49:24between God and man.
49:25We didn't compare notes,
49:26but we seem to be heading
49:28the same place.
49:29And we're coming full circle
49:30back to the beginning.
49:32So picture the communion setting
49:34that I described.
49:35Everybody's fear of their lives, man.
49:38If they eat that little thing,
49:40it's really the showdown
49:43between life and death
49:44if you eat that little wafer
49:45and you have some secret sin
49:47that you haven't confessed
49:49and got over.
49:50They taught perfectionism.
49:52You had to be perfect.
49:53If you weren't perfect
49:54and you took that wafer.
49:56And what happened was
49:57I grew up with teenagers
49:58that, man, every teenager
50:00who's experienced life
50:02has got some sort of thing
50:04that they can say,
50:05oh, I wish I didn't do that.
50:06That was wrong.
50:07So entire groups of kids
50:10would never take communion
50:11because of this.
50:12It's really, really awful.
50:13Darrell Bock
50:14Oh, really?
50:15Oh, interesting.
50:16Because they were afraid
50:17that if they did,
50:18they'd be struck dead.
50:19Darrell Bock
50:20They'd be struck dead.
50:21Maybe not in this life,
50:22but you're taught that
50:23it's a doomsday call.
50:24You're taught that any minute
50:25the world's going to end
50:26and you're not going to live
50:27on the other side
50:28if you eat this little wafer.
50:29It was the showdown.
50:30Now, there were people
50:31who didn't catch
50:32that they were supposed
50:33to believe that,
50:34but I knew people
50:35who struggled with this.
50:36So you talked about
50:38the passage from Revelation.
50:40And so many triggers
50:42are going off
50:43because Branhamism,
50:45the theology,
50:46was the scroll
50:48that's mentioned in that passage.
50:50Darrell Bock
50:51They talk about this.
50:52Oh, my gosh.
50:53Darrell Bock
50:54The scroll was the mystery of God,
50:55which was to be revealed
50:56in the last days.
50:59And Branham created this hierarchy
51:01in which the leadership
51:04would reveal what's in that scroll.
51:06So think about what you just said.
51:08You've got this hierarchy, right?
51:10So picture this communion room.
51:13We're sitting here thinking
51:14that we're so unworthy
51:16that we may even die
51:18if we eat that little wafer.
51:20Up on the platform,
51:21Branham is sitting
51:22in this cushy chair
51:24that looks like a king
51:25would sit in.
51:26And you're sitting in –
51:27they didn't even have cushions
51:28in the pews.
51:29That's how bad this was.
51:30They added cushions later,
51:32but back when Branham was alive,
51:34this was the lowest form of servitude
51:37that you're sitting
51:38in the servant's quarters, basically.
51:40And then what happened is
51:42throughout the ministry
51:43as Branham is revealing himself
51:45as the deity,
51:46he suddenly starts to mention
51:48that the mysteries on that scroll
51:51had been revealed to him.
51:53And so the passage where it says
51:55who's worthy to open the scroll,
51:57he is now made worthy.
52:00Well, this disseminated
52:02through the movement, right?
52:03So Branham died,
52:04and the movement kept going.
52:07So now the leadership believes
52:09that they can bring on
52:10this end times revival,
52:11this end of days revival.
52:13They're the ones who are worthy,
52:15and they're trying to keep
52:16the people in control
52:17so that their subjects
52:19can go into heaven
52:21under their authority.
52:22That was one of the doctrines
52:23that Branham taught.
52:24So everything that you've just described
52:26literally is a new take on Branhamism.
52:29They spent a good chunk of time
52:33about the scroll, okay?
52:35And I'm curious, I'm curious.
52:38There's a section in that video
52:40if you care to go look.
52:41Lou is holding up the piece of bread.
52:44It's like he's holding it up
52:46to heaven,
52:47the camera angle shooting kind of up
52:49and up at him,
52:50and you see the sky.
52:52And all these decrees, declarations,
52:55I'm going to eat the body of Christ
52:57and take it in.
52:58I'm going to eat the scroll.
53:02He says, I'm going to eat the scroll.
53:03So there's like this direct comparison
53:05between I'm taking communion,
53:07the bread right here, the bread.
53:09He said the bread of heaven,
53:10which to be fair is a quote from Jesus.
53:15He said he's the bread of heaven,
53:16but then mixing it with this,
53:18I'm going to eat the scroll
53:19like what you're talking about.
53:20That is crazy to me,
53:22that you just described
53:24where that originated.
53:26And I'm curious,
53:27did they talk about eating the scroll
53:29or was that language used at all
53:32that you remember?
53:33Well, there's a passage
53:34that comes straight out
53:35of the book of Revelation.
53:36There's a passage that talks about
53:38John being asked to eat the scroll.
53:41And I think, what is it, Ezekiel?
53:43There's another Old Testament book.
53:44Ezekiel, yeah.
53:45Yeah, that talks about
53:46the same kind of thing.
53:48It's not us, the people, eating it.
53:52We're not the ones eating it,
53:53as I recall, right?
53:55Except John was in Revelation.
53:58So in Branhamism,
53:59we didn't have symbolism
54:01of eating the scroll.
54:02But if you think in the grand scheme of things,
54:04what has happened,
54:06in Branhamism,
54:08if we were to have a ceremony like this,
54:10it's only the bride, the elect, the elite
54:14that would be partaking of this.
54:16And then all other Christians would not.
54:18And so the symbolism
54:20matches what we had.
54:22The ceremony doesn't.
54:23I find it fascinating
54:25that this is a theme
54:27and a direct teaching and practice
54:29that was in Branhamism
54:30that appears to now be
54:33practiced now at Bethel.
54:35Yeah, I think you'd be surprised
54:37how much has actually
54:38developed and changed.
54:40I can see little hints and traces of it,
54:42but unless somebody understands
54:44the full scope of what it was in Branhamism,
54:46they don't make the connection.
54:48I was talking to a friend.
54:50I actually have a friend here
54:51who has gotten a little bit involved
54:54with Bethel through watching them.
54:57I was trying to explain
54:58some of the connections.
54:59Unless you really look
55:02at the theology behind it
55:03and understand,
55:05first off, you have to understand
55:06what the Bible says
55:07about what they're teaching.
55:09And then you have to understand
55:11exactly what they're teaching
55:12so that you can know
55:13the difference between the two.
55:15And in that difference,
55:17you usually find traces of Branhamism.
55:19It's such a weird, complicated mess,
55:23but in the end,
55:25I'll go back with the question
55:27when I'm talking to
55:28either this friend or anybody else.
55:30Why would you want something
55:31that you have to dissect
55:33and see what is the difference
55:34between what you're teaching
55:35and the Bible?
55:36Is not this a Christian church?
55:38Should not the Bible be your answer
55:40instead of Branhamism
55:41or wherever this came?
55:42100%.
55:43And that's kind of where I've concluded
55:44is, you know,
55:46let's just put it all on a chopping block
55:48and let it all be examined.
55:51And, you know,
55:53I don't even have to parse
55:54every little thing in my head.
55:56I just want to go back
55:57to the one source of truth,
55:59which is the Bible
56:00and throw everything else out.
56:02Because frankly,
56:04all of these ritualistic practices
56:07and these spiritual activations
56:10and this, that, and the other,
56:11let's be honest,
56:12it is exhausting.
56:13It's an exhausting hamster wheel
56:15to be in.
56:16And the great thing
56:18about the real gospel
56:19is it's a gospel of grace
56:21and it's a gift.
56:23It's not something that I do
56:25that we do as people to earn.
56:27We don't have to earn it.
56:28That's why it's good news.
56:30So that's been really refreshing
56:32for me to kind of,
56:34oh, yeah,
56:35that's what this is actually about.
56:36It's not about, you know,
56:38coming up with some esoteric
56:40latest and greatest revelation
56:42to impress people
56:44and get people all riled up
56:46and like, oh my gosh,
56:47we're going to bring the kingdom.
56:48Like that's not what Jesus taught us.
56:52And, you know, it's insidious
56:53the way in which they do it.
56:54They don't really come out
56:55and say things.
56:56So unless you're really listening
56:58with a critical ear,
57:00you miss it.
57:01I wish that Bill Johnson
57:03and some of the others
57:04would just come out and say,
57:05hey, today we're going to have
57:07a seance and we're going to
57:08summon Jesus.
57:10I think people might wake up
57:11and say, wait a minute,
57:12this is wrong.
57:13What are you doing?
57:14But he doesn't say it like this.
57:17But if you look at the grave soaking
57:19and all of this weird stuff,
57:21he's literally doing that,
57:22but he's putting other terms.
57:23And he's not the only one
57:25is the scary part.
57:26So we could go down
57:28a thousand rabbit holes.
57:29I think we'll save them
57:30for next time.
57:31But thank you for doing this.
57:32Yeah, absolutely.
57:34Well, if you've enjoyed our show
57:35and you want more information,
57:36you can check us out on the web.
57:37You can find us at
57:38william-branham.org
57:40and the Grit in the Wild podcast.
57:42For more about the dark side
57:43of the New Apostolic Reformation,
57:45read Weaponize Religion,
57:46From Christian Identity to the NAR.
57:49Available on Amazon,
57:50Kindle, and Audible.
58:06The New Apostolic Reformation
58:07From Christian Identity to the NAR.
58:36The New Apostolic Reformation
58:37From Christian Identity to the NAR.