- 5/15/2025
The deadliest attack on civilians has shattered Kashmir’s fragile calm. In this exclusive with Asianet News, Kashmiri activist Sushil Pandit analyzes the brutal Pahalgam massacre-where 26 tourists were killed after being singled out by religion-and questions whether India was too quick to assume normalcy had returned to the Valley. WATCH.
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NewsTranscript
00:00:00Sushil Panditji, Namaskar.
00:00:02Namaskar Ajitji, Namaskara.
00:00:05Namaskara sir, Namaskara.
00:00:07From Karnataka and all the viewers of Shenet News Network, Namaskar.
00:00:13How are you?
00:00:15Very good.
00:00:17You speak so much Kannada, I didn't know.
00:00:19I am very happy.
00:00:21I was speaking in Kannada.
00:00:23I was speaking in Kannada, Sushil Panditji.
00:00:25Don't think of the Pahalgam attack as an isolated attack.
00:00:29If you think like this, you won't understand the whole matter.
00:00:33You don't know what has happened in Kashmir.
00:00:37So you won't know what is happening.
00:00:39And you won't know what will happen there.
00:00:42So we want to know from you, what is its background?
00:00:46When you heard the news of the Pahalgam attack for the first time,
00:00:50what was your reaction?
00:00:52Were you surprised?
00:00:54Or did you think something like this was bound to happen?
00:00:58Yes.
00:00:59Ajitji, I was afraid for a long time that something like this was going to happen.
00:01:05I had this doubt.
00:01:08And I was constantly afraid that something like this was going to happen.
00:01:15I didn't know when, where and how it would happen.
00:01:20But I had an assumption that something like this was going to happen.
00:01:26And there was a reason for this.
00:01:28Yes.
00:01:29The reason was that we were in a hurry to declare Kashmir as normal.
00:01:38Our entire system, government, leadership,
00:01:44was focused on the fact that we have made Kashmir normal.
00:01:50It is normal now. Normalized.
00:01:53Yes.
00:01:54Yes.
00:01:55Yes.
00:01:56Now there is no problem in Kashmir.
00:02:00There is no insecurity.
00:02:03Everyone can come and go freely.
00:02:07Everyone can enjoy.
00:02:09We were selling such a situation.
00:02:20Okay.
00:02:21We were telling them, we were assuring them that everything is fine.
00:02:26Which was not fine internally.
00:02:31Not at all.
00:02:33And those who were saying this, they also knew that it was not right.
00:02:37There is a reason for this.
00:02:39If AFSPA is applied in Kashmir,
00:02:45Armed Forces Special Power Act,
00:02:48when is this applied?
00:02:51Armed Forces Special Power Act is applied
00:02:55when the situation is not resolved by the general administration and the police.
00:03:02So specially the army is called.
00:03:05And the army is called when the Armed Forces Special Power Act is applied.
00:03:10Otherwise the army does not go.
00:03:12This is also called the Disturbed Area Act.
00:03:16So wherever the army is deployed,
00:03:20it is under the Armed Forces Special Power Act.
00:03:24This has not been removed from Kashmir.
00:03:27Second thing.
00:03:29In Kashmir, there are not 1, 2, 8, 10, 20, 25, 65 battalions of national rifles deployed.
00:03:41Yes.
00:03:43Not a single one has been reduced.
00:03:47All of them are deployed.
00:03:50If the situation is normal,
00:03:52then why didn't they remove the Armed Forces Special Power Act?
00:03:56Why didn't they remove the 65 battalions of national rifles?
00:04:02This is a big question in itself.
00:04:07This means that the situation is not normal.
00:04:10And you know this.
00:04:12The administration also knows this.
00:04:15But in the whole world, in the whole country,
00:04:20the haste to say that we have rectified Kashmir,
00:04:25now everything is good there,
00:04:27there is no problem.
00:04:30These are two big things.
00:04:32Then the big thing.
00:04:34Lakhs of Hindus were deployed from Kashmir 35 years ago.
00:04:40Why are they not able to return to their homes?
00:04:44Why are they still rotting in the camps of Sharnath?
00:04:49Thousands of Kashmiri Hindus.
00:04:51Sir, we will come to the Kashmiri Hindus later.
00:04:53Before that, I want to know,
00:04:55there is talk that this was a security lab, an intelligence lab.
00:04:59Do you also believe this?
00:05:02Absolutely.
00:05:03Look, when you want to tell the whole world that Kashmir is normal,
00:05:09there can be some reasons for that,
00:05:12there can be political compulsion for that,
00:05:15there can be some other greed.
00:05:17But even though you know,
00:05:20then you loosen the security,
00:05:25don't look at intelligence,
00:05:28don't keep it toxic,
00:05:30then this is not forgivable.
00:05:34You can tell the world anything,
00:05:36if you know, then at least you should be alert.
00:05:40You have believed your own propaganda.
00:05:44Sushil Panditji, there must have been a thought,
00:05:48that terrorists will never attack tourists,
00:05:52Kashmiri Muslims have their daily bread,
00:05:56there has never been a track record,
00:05:58there was a trip to Amarnath,
00:06:00there was another trip,
00:06:02but if there has never been an attack on tourists,
00:06:06then it won't happen.
00:06:07Is there such a thought?
00:06:10No, there has never been an attack on tourists,
00:06:12this is also a delusion,
00:06:14this is not true.
00:06:15Okay.
00:06:17When all this started in the 90s,
00:06:21a German tourist was beheaded,
00:06:25a European tourist was made a prisoner,
00:06:28even after that,
00:06:30a Gujarati tourist was attacked with a grenade
00:06:35on a bus in front of Dal Lake, Dal Gate.
00:06:39Tourists were repeatedly put in danger.
00:06:42Yes, this is another thing,
00:06:44that they are earning money,
00:06:47so they will not attack tourists,
00:06:50there was such a thought there.
00:06:52Yes.
00:06:53But, but, but,
00:06:56if India tells every day that
00:06:59so many tourists have come today,
00:07:01so many crores of tourists have come this season,
00:07:04tourists have come,
00:07:05that is why the situation is normal,
00:07:07then they will do anything to destroy your belief.
00:07:12Yes.
00:07:14If you want to prove that
00:07:17we have now won Kashmir,
00:07:20we have handled it,
00:07:22then to prove you wrong,
00:07:25they will go this far.
00:07:26Right.
00:07:27And they will only do Pakistani tourists,
00:07:30terrorists, it is not like that,
00:07:32who gives space to these Pakistani terrorists at home,
00:07:35who feeds them,
00:07:37who shows the way to come and go,
00:07:39who gives a place to hide,
00:07:41who does recce,
00:07:43who provides logistics,
00:07:45so the local population there,
00:07:49it is not possible without their support,
00:07:52they also benefit from tourism,
00:07:54but they still do this,
00:07:56because Jihad is priority for them,
00:08:01everything else is gone,
00:08:03it is secondary.
00:08:05So now we will talk about history,
00:08:09Sushil Panditji,
00:08:10I have heard many of your speeches,
00:08:12like you say,
00:08:13when Karnataka was not Karnataka,
00:08:15Tamil Nadu was not Tamil Nadu,
00:08:16Kerala was not Kerala,
00:08:18then Kashmir was Kashmir.
00:08:20What happened to this Kashmir?
00:08:22When did this start?
00:08:27Look, in Kashmir,
00:08:30from the 14th century,
00:08:341339 to be precise,
00:08:37from 1349,
00:08:39there came the Muslim rule,
00:08:43and they did not come after winning a war,
00:08:46they did not come on a horse with a sword,
00:08:50they came as refugees,
00:08:53and here,
00:08:54with the benefit of mutual support,
00:08:56with the appropriate benefit,
00:08:58and with mutual support,
00:09:00with everyone's consent,
00:09:02because the Hindu society of Kashmir,
00:09:06the Kuleen society,
00:09:08there was mutual support,
00:09:11that I will rule,
00:09:14I will rule,
00:09:15I will be the ruler.
00:09:17In this way,
00:09:18they made a Muslim refugee,
00:09:21a ruler,
00:09:23that he is not local,
00:09:25he will never be very powerful,
00:09:28he will never be very powerful,
00:09:30so he will suit all of us,
00:09:32I will not let you become,
00:09:33you will not let me become,
00:09:35we will make a third one.
00:09:38My goodness.
00:09:39So,
00:09:40like this,
00:09:41Shahmeer,
00:09:42Sultan Shahmeer,
00:09:44became the first Muslim ruler,
00:09:46and when he became the ruler,
00:09:481339,
00:09:50and when he became the ruler,
00:09:52then the king here,
00:09:54he is a descendant of a clan,
00:09:56then he became his son,
00:09:58now these first four,
00:10:00five generations,
00:10:01by doing Raj Tilak,
00:10:03with Mantra Chahar,
00:10:04with Veda Ghosh,
00:10:05they used to sit on the throne.
00:10:07Really?
00:10:09Yes.
00:10:10Not like an Islamic rule?
00:10:11Not like an Islamic rule?
00:10:13No, no, no, no, no,
00:10:14Sanskrit was the royal language,
00:10:17all the rule was in Sanskrit.
00:10:22And,
00:10:23the Kuleen,
00:10:25who were the ministers,
00:10:27they were all Hindus,
00:10:29they made it together,
00:10:32and then as soon as it was made,
00:10:34from Iran,
00:10:37and from Turkey,
00:10:39they called the Muslim preachers,
00:10:41and said,
00:10:42convert my Kashmir,
00:10:47so that my rule can be more stable and stable.
00:10:52And then these preachers,
00:10:54with greed,
00:10:55with violence,
00:10:57with deceit,
00:10:58the Kashmir,
00:11:00which was a common community,
00:11:03not a Kuleen community,
00:11:04but a common community,
00:11:07to convert it into Islam,
00:11:12they encouraged it,
00:11:14and forced it.
00:11:16The Kuleen community,
00:11:18allowed it to happen,
00:11:20because,
00:11:21the Kuleen,
00:11:22had no influence on them,
00:11:24in the beginning.
00:11:26They were busy with their own power,
00:11:28their own greed.
00:11:31And then,
00:11:33in about 100 years,
00:11:35in about 50-60 years,
00:11:37the Kuleen,
00:11:39came under their control,
00:11:41and the whole state,
00:11:43came under the grip of violence,
00:11:45and the first
00:11:47expulsion of Hindus from there,
00:11:50happened in 1405.
00:11:521405.
00:11:54Meaning,
00:11:56in about 65-70 years,
00:12:01mass migration happened from Kashmir,
00:12:04because in Kashmir,
00:12:06the temples were destroyed,
00:12:08houses were looted,
00:12:11and,
00:12:12a lot of humiliating,
00:12:14situations happened,
00:12:16so people emigrated.
00:12:19In this way,
00:12:20in the last 600 years,
00:12:22the emigration in 1990,
00:12:24is the 7th mass migration
00:12:26of Hindus from Kashmir.
00:12:287th.
00:12:30Yes, 7th.
00:12:31So, exodus has happened in 7 different
00:12:33episodes, at 7 different times,
00:12:35and 7 different circumstances.
00:12:38Yes.
00:12:39Now,
00:12:40this is mass exodus.
00:12:42Individual exodus has been
00:12:44happening constantly.
00:12:46But mass exodus,
00:12:48when the valley was emptied,
00:12:50all the communities,
00:12:52saw violence,
00:12:53and humiliation,
00:12:55and had to leave.
00:12:57Such a big exodus,
00:12:59such a big expulsion,
00:13:00is the 7th.
00:13:02Sometimes, I find it strange,
00:13:04Sushil Panditji,
00:13:06the 7th and the biggest exodus,
00:13:08happened when India was
00:13:10free.
00:13:11There was a constitution here,
00:13:13there was democracy.
00:13:16Yes, yes, yes.
00:13:17This is very painful.
00:13:19Yes.
00:13:20Because when we didn't have
00:13:22power,
00:13:23we didn't have an army,
00:13:25we didn't have constitution,
00:13:27we didn't have courts,
00:13:29we didn't have human rights,
00:13:33when all this used to happen,
00:13:35we used to accept this,
00:13:37and keep a stone on our heart,
00:13:39that we are unfortunate,
00:13:41we are weak,
00:13:43we don't have a system,
00:13:45we don't have a court,
00:13:47we don't have a constitution,
00:13:49we don't have an elected representative,
00:13:51we don't have an assembly,
00:13:53we don't have an army,
00:13:55we don't have an army,
00:13:57we don't have a country's army.
00:13:59But when all this happened,
00:14:01when there was a country
00:14:03with all the power,
00:14:05800 members,
00:14:07an independent press,
00:14:11when all this happened,
00:14:13and no one said anything,
00:14:15did nothing,
00:14:17then I felt that
00:14:19this is the biggest misfortune.
00:14:21Last week,
00:14:23we were talking about this subject
00:14:25in the studio,
00:14:27we called a Kashmir expert,
00:14:29a lot of people heard this,
00:14:31and they were asking,
00:14:33why didn't we know this?
00:14:35Is this the misfortune of this country?
00:14:39Yes.
00:14:41The misfortune of this country
00:14:43is because
00:14:45in our education,
00:14:49in our social
00:14:51research,
00:14:55in our media,
00:14:57in our academia,
00:14:59in our bureaucracy,
00:15:03we have developed
00:15:05a distorted mentality.
00:15:07In the name of secularism,
00:15:09we have nurtured
00:15:11Hindu hatred.
00:15:15I don't know how
00:15:17we have accepted this,
00:15:21but we are in the majority,
00:15:23so we should
00:15:25tolerate any
00:15:27atrocity,
00:15:29discrimination,
00:15:31violence.
00:15:35We should accept it.
00:15:39We should hide it.
00:15:41We should not discuss it.
00:15:43Why? Because we are in the majority.
00:15:47Being in the majority
00:15:49is a curse for us.
00:15:51Being a Hindu is a curse for us.
00:15:55We have nurtured
00:15:57this distorted mentality.
00:15:59We have taught it to children.
00:16:03We have taught it in schools.
00:16:05The demand of secularism
00:16:07is that
00:16:09we should tolerate
00:16:11any
00:16:13atrocity,
00:16:15discrimination,
00:16:17violence,
00:16:19and we should not
00:16:21discuss it.
00:16:23If we do this,
00:16:25we will be called
00:16:27communal.
00:16:29So, Shri Panditji,
00:16:31whatever happened on
00:16:33January 19, 1990,
00:16:35it must not have happened suddenly.
00:16:37It must have been going on for a long time.
00:16:39What happened?
00:16:41Will you tell our viewers?
00:16:43How it all started?
00:16:45Look, when India became
00:16:47independent in 1947,
00:16:49we gave ourselves
00:16:51a system without
00:16:53a democratic party.
00:16:55But we handed
00:16:57Kashmir over to
00:16:59Sheikh Abdullah.
00:17:01And not only did we
00:17:03hand it over to Sheikh Abdullah,
00:17:05but we also gave him
00:17:07independence
00:17:09under a system
00:17:11like 370.
00:17:13We did not allow the constitution
00:17:15of India to be implemented in Kashmir.
00:17:17We did not allow the Supreme Court
00:17:19to interfere.
00:17:21Election Commission,
00:17:23Comptroller and Auditor General,
00:17:25our Parliament,
00:17:27could not
00:17:29interfere
00:17:31in any way in the
00:17:33system of Kashmir.
00:17:35In such a system, Sheikh Abdullah
00:17:37did as he wished.
00:17:39He did
00:17:41discrimination against
00:17:43Hindus.
00:17:45He created a social
00:17:47hatred against them.
00:17:49And from my father's generation,
00:17:51Hindus were gradually
00:17:53established in Kashmir.
00:17:55Because we were
00:17:57stopped from
00:17:59studying,
00:18:01working.
00:18:03We were told,
00:18:05you have the whole of India.
00:18:07Why do you live here?
00:18:09Go and work there.
00:18:13So this discrimination
00:18:15started from my father's generation.
00:18:17But it was not
00:18:19enough for them.
00:18:21So they
00:18:23carried out
00:18:25terrible violence,
00:18:27terrible aggression
00:18:29and jihad.
00:18:31From Kashmir in 1990,
00:18:33the establishment
00:18:35which was gradually
00:18:37taking place one by one,
00:18:39it was turned into
00:18:41a collective expulsion.
00:18:43It was very
00:18:45open and
00:18:47no one
00:18:49had any hesitation
00:18:51that a case will be filed,
00:18:53what people will think,
00:18:55what will happen tomorrow.
00:18:57There was no hesitation.
00:18:59No, no, no.
00:19:01Like in Pahalgam,
00:19:03if someone asks you
00:19:05you will answer.
00:19:07Similarly, there was no need
00:19:09to ask names in Kashmir.
00:19:11We were their neighbours.
00:19:13We were living with them.
00:19:15They knew us.
00:19:17They had marked our houses
00:19:19that you have to come here and loot,
00:19:21you have to come here and kill.
00:19:23And the reason for this was
00:19:25that we
00:19:27were not only
00:19:29capable of
00:19:31any work
00:19:33in Kashmir.
00:19:35We were not only
00:19:37its witnesses,
00:19:39but also its opponents.
00:19:41So if India
00:19:43wants to break Kashmir,
00:19:45then first of all
00:19:47drive away those people
00:19:49who are obstructing its path.
00:19:51Who are Kashmiri Hindus.
00:19:53Who are Kashmiri Hindus.
00:19:55And Kashmiri Hindus
00:19:57were scattered all over Kashmir.
00:19:59In every town,
00:20:01in every locality,
00:20:03whether it is one, two, three,
00:20:05four, but they were there.
00:20:07And they had their eyes there.
00:20:09They were its witnesses.
00:20:11They could inform the government.
00:20:13They were obstructing the path.
00:20:15They were like thorns
00:20:17in the eyes.
00:20:21If we
00:20:23had read the Kalima,
00:20:25had accepted Islam,
00:20:27then we would not have
00:20:29had to leave our homes and land.
00:20:31We would not have
00:20:33had to rot in the camps.
00:20:35We would not have
00:20:37had to die
00:20:39after being shot.
00:20:41Because we were
00:20:43loyal to this country.
00:20:45We were steadfast
00:20:47in our religion and faith.
00:20:49That is why we were killed,
00:20:51raped,
00:20:53massacred and
00:20:55driven out of there.
00:20:57Maybe
00:20:59in some other country,
00:21:01people of that country
00:21:03are becoming refugees in that country.
00:21:05Maybe.
00:21:07And it should not be like this.
00:21:09In fact, it should be like this
00:21:11for 36 years.
00:21:13Yes.
00:21:15There should not be any
00:21:17white paper on this.
00:21:19There should not be any inquiry.
00:21:21There should not be any case.
00:21:23No one should be found guilty.
00:21:25No one should be punished.
00:21:27That is what I was going to ask, Sushil Pandit ji.
00:21:29There are riots in many parts of the country.
00:21:31They have already happened.
00:21:33But there is a case.
00:21:35Police comes,
00:21:37investigates, arrests someone,
00:21:39files a charge sheet,
00:21:41then a case is filed.
00:21:43Did something like this happen
00:21:45in the case of Kashmiri Pandits
00:21:47and their murder?
00:21:49Till today,
00:21:51there are thousands of FIRs.
00:21:53But no investigation,
00:21:55no investigation,
00:21:57no case was filed on anyone.
00:21:59No one was found guilty.
00:22:01If the case
00:22:03was not filed,
00:22:05how can one be found guilty?
00:22:07And if there is no guilty,
00:22:09how will he be punished?
00:22:11Till today,
00:22:13the people who gave interviews
00:22:15and said, yes, we killed,
00:22:17yes, we killed,
00:22:19yes, we broke the temple
00:22:21and looted the house.
00:22:23We did massacres.
00:22:25Whether it was the retired judge
00:22:27of the High Court,
00:22:29Justice Neelkanth Ganju,
00:22:31or the director of Doordarshan,
00:22:33Lassakol.
00:22:35Can you tell us a few incidents,
00:22:37Sushil ji?
00:22:39Just to tell our audience
00:22:41how horrific it was.
00:22:45Look, the vice-chancellor
00:22:47of Kashmir University
00:22:49came to the office
00:22:51and shot the students
00:22:53of the university.
00:22:55Students?
00:22:57Yes, the local students.
00:23:01Then there was another group
00:23:03of students who went to
00:23:05Professor Ganju's house,
00:23:07who was his teacher.
00:23:09They killed him,
00:23:11raped his wife,
00:23:13beheaded him
00:23:15and threw both of them
00:23:17into the river.
00:23:19In the same way,
00:23:21the director of Doordarshan,
00:23:23Lassakol,
00:23:25was killed
00:23:27by point-blank range.
00:23:31About him,
00:23:33his associates
00:23:35had told
00:23:37these terrorists.
00:23:41In the same way,
00:23:43Justice Neelkanth Ganju,
00:23:45on Hari Singh High Street,
00:23:47which is the heart of Kashmir,
00:23:49the heart of Srinagar,
00:23:53which is right in the centre,
00:23:55it is called CBD,
00:23:57Central Business District.
00:23:59He was walking there.
00:24:01He was 80 years old.
00:24:03He went to him
00:24:05and shot him,
00:24:07a very old man.
00:24:11And the terrorists didn't even run away.
00:24:13They came quietly.
00:24:17Not only that,
00:24:19they not only shot him,
00:24:21they stood there.
00:24:23They told the people around
00:24:25not to give him water,
00:24:27not to cover his face.
00:24:29Even if someone
00:24:31kept a handkerchief on his face,
00:24:33they would do the same to him.
00:24:37They gave a speech there.
00:24:39They did not warn
00:24:41the people of Kashmir.
00:24:43They left quietly.
00:24:49And all this happened
00:24:51when Farooq Abdullah was the CM.
00:24:55Rajiv Gandhi was the PM in the country.
00:24:59All this happened then.
00:25:01So, Sushil Panditji,
00:25:03who could you trust for your protection?
00:25:05Local police?
00:25:07Military?
00:25:09Who?
00:25:13No one.
00:25:15The whole system was in chaos.
00:25:17What were the police doing?
00:25:19Did they come to the crime scene?
00:25:21Nothing.
00:25:23They didn't even pick up the phone.
00:25:25They were not seen.
00:25:27It seemed as if the whole system
00:25:29was involved in this chaos.
00:25:31It was silent.
00:25:33You think about it.
00:25:35At that time,
00:25:37the Home Minister of the country
00:25:39was a Kashmiri Muslim.
00:25:41He did not call the army.
00:25:43Because, you see,
00:25:45until you order the army,
00:25:47the army will remain
00:25:49in the shadow.
00:25:51Right.
00:25:55And it was our misfortune
00:25:57that at that time,
00:25:59the 15 corps in Kashmir
00:26:01which is our army
00:26:03in Chhawani,
00:26:05their commander-in-chief
00:26:07was
00:26:09Lieutenant General Zaki.
00:26:13This Lieutenant General Zaki,
00:26:15his father
00:26:17was a brigadier
00:26:19in the Nizam's army.
00:26:23What would have been
00:26:25his mentality?
00:26:27So, the police
00:26:29didn't pick up your calls,
00:26:31didn't come and
00:26:33didn't even trust the army.
00:26:35The one who was in charge
00:26:37of the army was
00:26:39Lieutenant General Zaki Ahmed.
00:26:41The Home Minister of the country
00:26:43was Mufti Mohammad Saeed.
00:26:49And the Chief Minister
00:26:51was Farooq Abdullah.
00:26:53So, apart from God,
00:26:55there was no one
00:26:57who came to help you.
00:26:59There was no God either.
00:27:01Yes.
00:27:03It felt as if
00:27:05God had also
00:27:07closed his eyes
00:27:09and went into Samadhi.
00:27:11For us,
00:27:13for our women
00:27:15and children,
00:27:17for our old parents,
00:27:19it was like
00:27:21a kind of
00:27:23crisis,
00:27:25a crisis
00:27:27that we never imagined.
00:27:29Yes.
00:27:31People used to ask
00:27:33that how do you,
00:27:35a handful of Hindus,
00:27:37live among so many
00:27:39aggressive Muslims?
00:27:41So, I also asked
00:27:43my elders
00:27:45that how did we
00:27:47endure this for so many years?
00:27:49So, they used to say
00:27:51that look,
00:27:53as long as the Tiranga is
00:27:55waving on Sachivala,
00:27:57as long as our army
00:27:59is in Chhagni,
00:28:01and as long as this country
00:28:03of 90 crores,
00:28:05at that time the population
00:28:07of the country was 90 crores,
00:28:09as long as this country
00:28:11of 90 crores,
00:28:13our army,
00:28:15our Tiranga,
00:28:17our constitution,
00:28:19no one can look at us
00:28:21with a crooked eye.
00:28:23The whole country will stand up.
00:28:25All the trust was lost.
00:28:27Just think,
00:28:29what kind of illusion
00:28:31did we have?
00:28:33How foolishly
00:28:35were we living?
00:28:39Shashil Panditji, there is an argument
00:28:41that all this happened because
00:28:43Pakistan was giving money,
00:28:45Pakistan was giving weapons,
00:28:47Pakistan wanted to take a revenge.
00:28:49What was the fault of the localites?
00:28:51They were just puppets.
00:28:53Is this argument correct?
00:28:55This argument is not correct.
00:28:59I hear from my elders
00:29:01that when in 1971
00:29:03Pakistan was divided into two,
00:29:07the educated people,
00:29:09the journalists,
00:29:11the academics,
00:29:13such people
00:29:15burst into tears
00:29:17in the Srinagar press.
00:29:19My goodness!
00:29:21What happened to our Pakistan?
00:29:23Our system
00:29:25put us
00:29:27in front of wolves.
00:29:29See, anything can happen
00:29:31to Pakistan,
00:29:33but
00:29:35until it does not get local support,
00:29:37what will it do?
00:29:41If Pakistan's plans
00:29:43were right,
00:29:45they could have done it in Gujarat,
00:29:47they could have done it in Rajasthan.
00:29:49And they will do it.
00:29:51Pakistan has seen it.
00:29:55They are doing it.
00:29:57They are doing it in Murshidabad.
00:30:01They are doing it in Kerala.
00:30:03They are doing it in Malabar.
00:30:05They are doing it in your Bhatkal.
00:30:09They are doing it in your Mangalore.
00:30:11They are doing it in Kesargod.
00:30:13They are doing it in Malappuram.
00:30:15They are doing it in Ambur.
00:30:17They are doing it in Ramnathpuram.
00:30:19They are doing it in Hyderabad.
00:30:21They are doing it in Adilabad.
00:30:23They are doing it in Bhivadi,
00:30:25in Malay Gaon.
00:30:27They are doing it in Dharavi,
00:30:29in Mumbai.
00:30:31They are doing it in the districts
00:30:33of Rajasthan,
00:30:35Uttar Pradesh,
00:30:37they are also doing it in Bihar
00:31:09They are doing it in Delhi, they are doing it in Mewat, in Haryana, where are they not?
00:31:28Some good Samaritan stories also happen, when we were watching the scene of the Pahalgaon
00:31:34attack, a local Muslim is running with a child, someone lost his life while saving a tourist.
00:31:43Were there no such good Samaritan stories around 1990?
00:31:48Some neighbour saved some Hindus.
00:31:51They are there because of them.
00:31:54Ajitji, such atrocities happen everywhere and in every situation.
00:32:04There were such Germans who saved the Jews.
00:32:11But atrocities do not break any principle, they only confirm that principle because they are only atrocities.
00:32:22Atrocities do not change the principle, they only accept it.
00:32:29Atrocities do not change the principle, they only accept it.
00:32:37So, the mass exodus that took place on 19th January 1990, did they think that they will have to stay outside for 30-40 years?
00:32:46Did they think that they will come back in a week or two?
00:32:50Yes, I said that the assumption was that the whole country will stand up.
00:32:55So, when they went, they went in such a way that there was not even a bag in their hands,
00:33:03so that no neighbour would think that they are going, they are running.
00:33:08They left as if they are just walking, going to the market, going to meet someone, going to buy something.
00:33:16Because they thought that it is just a matter of a few days, they will come back, as soon as the situation improves.
00:33:26Even in those days, there were no mobile phones.
00:33:31So, they did not even get time to inform their friends, relatives, relatives.
00:33:42They were also warned that we are going, you should also leave.
00:33:49So, when everyone left, most of them reached Jammu.
00:33:54So, when they saw their friends in Jammu, they could not look each other in the eye out of shame,
00:34:00that you are also here, why didn't you tell us before leaving, we would have gone with you.
00:34:06There was not even that much time.
00:34:11They would have informed their close friends, relatives, they would have warned them that we are going, leave the place.
00:34:21People left in such a bad mood.
00:34:25One thing that you said, that your ancestors had said, I still remember it,
00:34:32that as long as 90 crore people live, as long as the Tiranga waves, as long as the soldiers live, nothing will happen to us.
00:34:40What did those 90 crore people do?
00:34:45What do you think?
00:34:47I find it difficult, Mr. Ajit, this thing about our country, about our citizens, about our own people.
00:34:58Look, the enemy did enmity, he will do enmity, what more do you expect from him?
00:35:09You cannot expect anything from him.
00:35:12The pain is when you expect from yourself, because the expectation is there.
00:35:23This is a very big pain.
00:35:26Our own system has never punished anyone, no one has been hanged.
00:35:32For the murder of Kashmiri Hindus, for their caste discrimination, for their collective exploitation,
00:35:41no one has been punished till date.
00:35:48In fact, they were invited to the Prime Minister's office and their dinner was held.
00:35:53They were hosted, they were photographed.
00:35:57The governments of the country spent hundreds of crores on them,
00:36:01they were treated abroad,
00:36:04their food, hotel, airlines, even petrol bills were paid in the car,
00:36:11with the money of the creditors of this country.
00:36:14I was reading somewhere that 480 crores have been spent on them.
00:36:19In just 4 years.
00:36:20In 4 years, yes.
00:36:21We did RTI in July 2018.
00:36:28At that time, the Home Minister was Rajnath Singh.
00:36:33The Home Minister has reported that yes, we have spent about 500 crores on Huryat in the last 4 years.
00:36:42Yes.
00:36:59There is a lot of discussion about the Pahalgam attack, Mr. Sushil Pandit.
00:37:03You must have heard that the terrorists asked for religion and killed or not.
00:37:09There is a lot of discussion.
00:37:40Sushil ji, I was talking to a political leader.
00:37:43He was fighting for the Palestinian cause.
00:37:46He was talking very loudly.
00:37:48I asked, have you ever talked about the Kashmiri Pandits?
00:37:53He asked me again, what happened to them?
00:37:56Wherever they are, they are happy.
00:37:58They are doing well, wherever they are.
00:38:00What would you like to say to them?
00:38:04I said, they are doing well.
00:38:07I said, it is the misfortune of this country.
00:38:10If we are happy wherever we are, then it is not because of their kindness.
00:38:22If we start from zero, educate our children, work hard,
00:38:33take care of ourselves and get out of this crisis,
00:38:37then it is not because of the kindness of such fools.
00:38:44We did not become a burden on this country.
00:38:47We did not pick up a gun.
00:38:50We did not become a suicide bomber.
00:38:54We made our children engineers, doctors.
00:38:56I believe you have every right.
00:38:59If anyone has the right to do all this in India,
00:39:02then it is the Kashmiri Pandits.
00:39:06Which you did not do.
00:39:09But the people who had the responsibility to protect us,
00:39:13and if they could not protect us, then they should give us justice.
00:39:16And if they could not give us justice, then they should give us help.
00:39:20They should at least have compassion with us.
00:39:23When such people say that wherever they are, they are happy,
00:39:28then I pity them.
00:39:32That in these people, the skin has become so thick,
00:39:37and the sensitivity has increased so much.
00:39:43I have not seen such a senseless mentality anywhere.
00:39:49Panditji, you have seen many governments.
00:39:51Governments of many parties.
00:39:53Governments of many clashes.
00:39:56Was there any difference in anyone's policy?
00:39:59After Article 370 was removed,
00:40:01some hopes must have arisen in you,
00:40:04that we can go back to our homes.
00:40:06This is true.
00:40:07You asked a very good question.
00:40:11Whenever the government changed,
00:40:13a new leadership came,
00:40:15our hopes would arise.
00:40:19Because all the parties behaved in the same way,
00:40:24I will not say that.
00:40:27Some people put our issues in their manifestos.
00:40:31In their election speeches,
00:40:35they described us.
00:40:38They conveyed our concerns to the whole country.
00:40:42They expressed their loyalty to Article 370.
00:40:45This also happened.
00:40:47A movement was born.
00:40:49A hope arose in us too.
00:40:52But you see,
00:40:55the kind of example that is not found in the world,
00:40:58to become a refugee in your own country,
00:41:00and 8, 10, 100, 200, 1000, 2000,
00:41:04no, lakhs of people,
00:41:06and not just becoming a refugee,
00:41:08but remaining a refugee for two generations,
00:41:11no Prime Minister has gone to such camps.
00:41:17No Home Minister has gone.
00:41:19He would put his hand on someone's shoulder and say,
00:41:21I have sympathy for you,
00:41:23we are doing something.
00:41:24He did not go.
00:41:30These people,
00:41:31if Shabana Azmi's leg breaks,
00:41:34fractures,
00:41:35they tweet.
00:41:42What was your reaction as soon as Article 370 was removed?
00:41:46Some hopes must have arisen.
00:41:48Yes, I felt that this country is now awake from sleep.
00:41:53And it has warned Jihad,
00:41:56that now we will fight you.
00:42:00Now we will not welcome you.
00:42:02Yes.
00:42:03We will not entertain you.
00:42:07We will not win your heart.
00:42:09Now we will break your back.
00:42:11Removing Article 370 is almost like declaring war on Jihad.
00:42:19But this did not happen.
00:42:23We thought this was the first step,
00:42:26the first step,
00:42:27the first step.
00:42:30But the system took it as the last step.
00:42:33That we removed Article 370.
00:42:35We said we would remove it.
00:42:36We removed it.
00:42:37That's it.
00:42:39But Article 370 was just a provision of the Constitution.
00:42:44Yes.
00:42:45In the shadow of that provision,
00:42:49for 75 years,
00:42:51we saw a Jihadi system flourishing in Kashmir.
00:42:57That system did not fly away by changing the law.
00:43:00It does not fly away. Yes.
00:43:03The people,
00:43:05the instruments,
00:43:07the network,
00:43:09the wealth,
00:43:11the resources,
00:43:13they were intact.
00:43:14They will have to be dismantled on the ground.
00:43:17Yes.
00:43:18Which did not happen.
00:43:21Yes.
00:43:22If you make a vaccine,
00:43:27and say we have made a vaccine,
00:43:29COVID will not run away on its own.
00:43:32You have to go and give a vaccine to each person.
00:43:35Yes.
00:43:37Yes.
00:43:57Yes.
00:44:05And once the court told that too much time has passed.
00:44:36He is still alive.
00:44:38His case is still pending in the TADA court.
00:44:41It is not going on.
00:44:46If your Air Force's squadron leader,
00:44:49his life is not valuable,
00:44:52the terror case in the TADA court is not important,
00:44:56then we are ordinary people.
00:45:00To win your heart,
00:45:03to make you happy,
00:45:07all this action was stopped.
00:45:09Yes.
00:45:12Hindu lives are of no value.
00:45:21And the Hindu refugees did not go to the camps
00:45:24so that the Muslims there would not get angry.
00:45:27Will they still be angry?
00:45:29Generations have passed,
00:45:31Sushil Panditji.
00:45:33The new generation,
00:45:35the Kashmiri Muslim children,
00:45:37do they also have this hatred in their hearts?
00:45:40Don't they want you to come back and settle in your homes?
00:45:45You see,
00:45:47who were those who threw stones?
00:45:49They were children.
00:45:50Yes.
00:45:54Who are those who pick up weapons today?
00:45:56They are children.
00:45:57Adil Dar,
00:45:58who was a suicide bomber,
00:46:00who killed 40 of our CRPF people in Pulwama,
00:46:04he was only a 20-22 year old boy.
00:46:09He was a local there.
00:46:12Burhanwani was also a local,
00:46:14he was a school dropout.
00:46:15Yes.
00:46:16To interview his father,
00:46:17Shammi Baveja of the Hindustan Times reached there.
00:46:20He asked,
00:46:21did you ever come home?
00:46:23He said,
00:46:24yes,
00:46:25I came home on Eid with my friends
00:46:27to eat food cooked by my mother.
00:46:30So Shammi Baveja asked,
00:46:32didn't you stop him from leaving all this?
00:46:36So his headmaster father said,
00:46:39if Allah has shown him this path,
00:46:42then who am I to become a hurdle in the path?
00:46:49If parents teach their children Jihad,
00:46:55and he is the headmaster of the school,
00:46:57if he has taught this to his son,
00:47:00then what would he have taught the rest of the children?
00:47:02What would he have taught?
00:47:06And you hire such people for government jobs
00:47:09to earn Jihad in Kashmir.
00:47:13Such people are still in jobs,
00:47:16in the system.
00:47:18And then we are surprised
00:47:20that where is this Jihad coming from?
00:47:23So Kashmiri issue is deep inside an ideological issue,
00:47:26that's what you mean to say?
00:47:29Absolutely.
00:47:31And we don't want to address it.
00:47:33It is the elephant in the room.
00:47:35Yes.
00:47:36We don't want to investigate this issue
00:47:40because we feel that people will get upset.
00:47:44I will give you one more example.
00:47:47In 1991,
00:47:49in 1991,
00:47:50we just left from there,
00:47:52not even a year had passed.
00:47:55Two and a half thousand people
00:47:57in Kashmir's two and a half thousand bureaucracies
00:48:02wrote an appeal to the United Nations,
00:48:07a written appeal,
00:48:09that India has an illegal occupation in Kashmir,
00:48:15get a referendum here.
00:48:18And on that appeal,
00:48:20senior bureaucrats,
00:48:21signatures of IAS officers were there.
00:48:25Two and a half thousand people
00:48:27who took government salary.
00:48:29Yes.
00:48:30So what happened?
00:48:32At that time,
00:48:33Chandra Shekhar was the Prime Minister of India.
00:48:36This is the time of January 1991.
00:48:41So, he indirectly,
00:48:43the five senior most leaders
00:48:47who ran this campaign
00:48:49and made this petition,
00:48:51he fired these five people from their jobs.
00:48:56Only five people.
00:48:57That's it.
00:48:58Out of those two and a half thousand.
00:48:59Yes.
00:49:00Now listen to what happened.
00:49:04These people did not appeal in any court.
00:49:08These people did not make any petition,
00:49:12mercy petition,
00:49:13nothing.
00:49:14Okay.
00:49:15Then?
00:49:16They went home.
00:49:18And within a few years,
00:49:21our government
00:49:23took them back.
00:49:24took them back.
00:49:26Their promotions,
00:49:28their suspended salary,
00:49:30their suspension,
00:49:32by giving compensation,
00:49:34took them back.
00:49:36They did not ask for compensation.
00:49:38They did not ask for any compensation.
00:49:43This is our government.
00:49:44There are cases of people who take a bribe of a thousand or two thousand rupees.
00:49:48And those who wrote a letter to the United Nations,
00:49:51Kashmir is not a part of India.
00:49:54Nothing happened to them.
00:49:55Nothing happened to them.
00:49:56Yes.
00:49:57They had to win their hearts.
00:49:58They had to make them happy.
00:50:00They had to welcome them.
00:50:03This is our government.
00:50:05Yes.
00:50:18Yes.
00:50:32Have you ever been to your ancestral home?
00:50:35Mr. Sushil,
00:50:37have you spoken to your neighbours?
00:50:39How would that be like?
00:51:00How does it feel, if you can explain?
00:51:06I mean, this question is not right.
00:51:08I know.
00:51:12Let it be.
00:51:15Let it be.
00:51:20Do your neighbours come and talk to you?
00:51:22When you go like this,
00:51:24when someone else goes,
00:51:26any regrets,
00:51:27that this should not have happened?
00:51:30You come back,
00:51:31we will see.
00:51:33Anything like that?
00:51:35No, nothing like that.
00:51:36Talk to them.
00:51:37Whether it will happen or not,
00:51:38that is another thing.
00:51:39The first question they ask is,
00:51:42when will you go back?
00:51:44I see.
00:51:46How many days have you been here?
00:51:48They are afraid,
00:51:49that you might come and stay somewhere.
00:51:59Mr. Sushil,
00:52:00what is the immediate solution?
00:52:02I mean,
00:52:03you will get some assurance,
00:52:05if the government does this to the Pandits.
00:52:07Some assurance.
00:52:08Is there any such solution?
00:52:23Yes.
00:52:34Yes.
00:52:46Yes.
00:53:03Yes.
00:53:22Yes.
00:53:34Yes.
00:53:42Yes.
00:53:55Kashmiri files.
00:54:03Yes.
00:54:21Yes.
00:54:33Yes.
00:55:04Yes.
00:55:17Still, it was called a propaganda movie.
00:55:34Yes.
00:55:46Yes.
00:55:59It will change anything for Kashmiri Pandits.
00:56:02Do you feel?
00:56:03The outcome of this,
00:56:04the result is going to come.
00:56:07The scenario in Kashmir will change
00:56:08in terms of terrorism?
00:56:18Still, say it.
00:56:33Yes.
00:56:36I see.
00:57:00I see.
00:57:02Hmm.
00:57:27Hmm.
00:57:33Hmm.
00:57:46Yes.
00:58:02Yes.
00:58:09Hmm.
00:58:12Yes.
00:58:27Hmm.
00:58:32Hmm.
00:59:03Hmm.
00:59:11Hmm.
00:59:33Yes.
00:59:35Hmm.
00:59:36Hmm.
01:00:07Hmm.
01:00:14Hmm.
01:00:16Hmm.
01:00:26Hmm.
01:00:36Hmm.
01:01:06Hmm.
01:01:07Hmm.
01:01:08Hmm.
01:01:09Hmm.
01:01:10Hmm.
01:01:11Hmm.
01:01:12Hmm.
01:01:13Hmm.
01:01:14Hmm.
01:01:15Hmm.
01:01:16Hmm.
01:01:17Hmm.
01:01:18Hmm.
01:01:19Hmm.
01:01:20Hmm.
01:01:21Hmm.
01:01:22Hmm.
01:01:23Hmm.
01:01:24Hmm.
01:01:25Hmm.
01:01:26Hmm.
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01:04:59Yes.
01:05:00Yes.
01:05:01Yes.
01:05:03Hmm.
01:05:25Yes.
01:05:33So, sense of security.
01:05:36Yes.
01:05:37Definition has to be changed, definitely.
01:06:02and the condition of the Kashmiri Pandits will not improve.
01:06:11It is not like that.
01:06:12My faith is in God.
01:06:14My faith is not in any political party, government or war.
01:06:19I feel that the circumstances are our test.
01:06:26And in these circumstances, India's leadership will be forced.
01:06:34Circumstances will force us.
01:06:36Because if we want to save this country,
01:06:39then we will have to be motivated to fight against the situation in other states of the country like Kashmir.
01:06:48If we are not motivated, then circumstances will force us.
01:06:56Are you exaggerating when you are telling this condition is happening in other states also?
01:07:01Are you exaggerating?
01:07:04I don't have to.
01:07:05See, Kashmir has become a metaphor.
01:07:07Today in Murshidabad or Malda or here in Uttar Pradesh's Sambhal,
01:07:15when a Hindu is suffering and a journalist goes to him,
01:07:20then he says that the situation here is like Kashmir.
01:07:24Yes.
01:07:26He says with his own mouth that Kashmir is happening here.
01:07:30So Kashmir has become a metaphor.
01:07:33I have not gone to teach him this.
01:07:38When he himself saw, read and heard this,
01:07:42and experienced it there, then he speaks with his own mouth.
01:07:47So there are more than 500 places in the country which are ready to explode like Kashmir.
01:07:54But our misfortune is that,
01:07:57leave aside the places of other states of the country,
01:08:01people say that there is exaggeration in Kashmir also.
01:08:04Nothing has happened to us.
01:08:07So those who see exaggeration,
01:08:12what is their treatment?
01:08:14There is no treatment.
01:08:20Thank you, Sushil Panditji, for talking to us.
01:08:23We can only hope for good days.
01:08:27We can wait.
01:08:31Let's see.
01:08:32And for this, we can awaken consciousness.
01:08:35We can awaken awareness for this.
01:08:38We can create for this.
01:08:42We can awaken the people.
01:08:44Yes.
01:08:53This is what you want to convey.
01:08:56Yes.
01:08:59Thank you, Sushil Panditji.
01:09:00If you ever come to Bangalore, we will definitely meet.
01:09:03Thank you very much, Ajitji.
01:09:06Thank you so much.