00:00Business today is consideration of the committee print providing legislative recommendations
00:05to comply with the reconciliation directives included in section 2001 of the concurrent
00:11resolution on the budget for fiscal year 2025 H-Con Res. 14. The committee will now proceed
00:18to consideration of the committee print. Mr. Chairman, at this point I want to reserve a
00:22right to object to your unanimous consent request and raise a point of order concerning its
00:27consideration. So the next line is without objection? It is with objection. With a reservation of
00:34objection. Hopefully I cannot object. State your objection, gentlemen. Mr. Chairman, I just
00:42asked to be heard briefly about the amendment and the nature of my point of order is under
00:48House Rule 16, Clause 7, in that your 28-page bill that you filed Friday night is now a
00:56389-page bill that includes multiple provisions that were not in any way referenced on Friday
01:04night from the assault cap to the $20 billion voucher plan to just one provision after another.
01:14And under House Rule 16, Clause 7, it is designed to help the members of Congress properly legislate
01:23by knowing what's going to be considered before we act. I have people in my district who will
01:28spend months researching a $40,000 car. We're being asked to consider a $5 trillion tax bill
01:35where we don't have the information since this bill deviates so much from the one that was filed
01:41Friday night. I have, Mr. Chairman, the House Practice Manual, and it makes very clear that on page 565,
01:52that the burden of proof is on the offer of an amendment that deviates so fundamentally, and that this applies to amendments in the nature of a substitute.
02:05So I just ask you to clarify, perhaps your broad definition of germaneness, if that is your position, will be applied similarly to any democratic amendment that would be offered. But I'm trying to ensure that we don't have one standard that applies to the
02:11amendment and another standard that applies to mine or the others that might be offered. So perhaps you could just explain why you think this is germane to what you offered on Friday night.
02:30The House substitute that we provided provides with all House rules, and so the gentleman is more than happy to discuss any of the conversations when we move forward within the substitute.
02:53So your position is that our amendments, for example, to deal with the Affordable Care Act enhanced credits, though they're not dealt with directly in your bill, that germaneness will permit us to debate all of those matters on the merits?
03:08We'll consider case-by-case basis as we move forward.
03:13Sometimes your consideration tends to run a little one way.
03:17You stated your objection, we're going to move on.
03:20All right, well, my objection, I raise a point of order.
03:23State your point of order.
03:25The amendment in the nature of a substitute is not germane to the base bill because it includes multiple provisions, SALT, the vouchers, the denial of health care.
03:38The gentleman will suspend for a moment.
03:40Surely.
03:41The amendment in the nature of a substitute hasn't been called up yet, so it's not timely to raise a point of order at this moment.
03:57Well, you're about to make a unanimous consent request that we dispense with any objection, so if you want to make that request, I will renew the resolution.
04:05I was about to say the measure will be considered as read and open for amendment at any point if there's no objection.
04:13Are you referring to the amendment in the nature of a substitute?
04:22We are not there yet.
04:26When you're there, I have a reservation of objection, and it will be somewhat similar to the one I just stated.
04:34Without objection, the measure will be considered as read and open for amendment at any point.
04:39At this time, I offer an amendment in the nature of a substitute which was distributed in advance along with the green sheet explaining it.
04:46Without objection, the amendment...
04:48Mr. Chairman, at that point, I would reserve an objection and raise a point of order.
04:52And that is the appropriate time.
04:54Thank you very much.
04:55That is not the appropriate time.
04:57Does the gentleman wish to reserve a point of order on germaneness?
05:04I would reserve a point of order under the House rule that I cited, hoping that we can comply with the rules, or if you're adjusting the rules, that it will apply the same to Democrats as Republicans.
05:16House Rule 16, Clause 7...
05:20The committee is complying with all House rules, and we will continue to comply with all House rules.
05:25Mr. Chairman, you're not complying with House Rule 16, Clause 7, which applies to amendments in the nature of a substitute of this type.
05:35And it's obvious from your expansion from 28 pages to 8...
05:42Would the gentleman suspend?
05:43Surely.
05:44Oh, more votes.
05:45Under the House.
05:46Under the House.
05:47Under the House.
05:48Under the House.
05:49Under the House.
05:50Under the House.
05:51Under the House.
05:52Under the House.
05:53Under the House.
05:54After I read this next line, the gentlemen would have the opportunity to make the objection.
06:09Sorry to jump around.
06:10To raise the point of order and germaneness.
06:12Without objection, the amendment in the nature of a substitute shall be considered as read, open for amendment at any point, and considered base text for purpose of amendment.
06:20Mr. Chairman, at that point, I would reserve an objection and raise a point of order.
06:27This is the time you need to raise it, not reserve it.
06:29Well, I'm reserving it because I'm hopeful that you'll give me an explanation that germaneness would apply the same way to democratic amendments as you have applied it to your amendment in the nature of a substitute.
06:43And if that's not the case and there's some possibility that our amendments will be rejected as non-germane while yours, which is obviously non-germane, is okay to consider, I'm willing to withdraw the objection.
06:57I really was hoping to get more insight from you about your approach to germaneness and the vast change in this bill from Friday night, which gave us almost no time to prepare amendments or to be prepared to discuss its multiple provisions of a big, beautiful bill.
07:16And I'm hoping that the House rules will be followed more closely than the rule of law has been followed by the administration.
07:23So the amendment and the nature of a substitute is germane, and we'll move forward as it be in germane.
07:30Mr. Chairman, I raise a point of order against further consideration of the amendment and request a vote on my point of order.
07:36As described, that the amendment and the nature of the substitute is not germane to the base bill, it legislates on a different subject matter, it has a different fundamental purpose from the bill that you noticed, and the burden is on you to show germaneness, and you've done nothing to show germaneness here.
07:53You've not only not met your burden, you've not even offered an explanation as to why you deviated from a bill of 28 pages and went to 389 pages with more new provisions than you had old provisions.
08:07Okay, so the chair is prepared to rule that this is germane, so you're objecting to that, and you want a record vote on it.
08:16Over, okay, so.
08:18Point of order, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Chairman.
08:21You can't entertain another point of order while this is pending.
08:27Can I ask a question about this vote before us, before we vote?
08:30It's not debatable or discussion.
08:32We're going to it.
08:33No discussion of germaneness, in other words.
08:38You're just going to rule on germaneness with no discussion of germaneness?
08:40Does the gentleman wish to be heard on his point of order on germaneness?
08:45I do.
08:46Proceed.
08:46Well, thank you very much.
08:47Mr. Chairman, I believe you are taking a very expansive view of germaneness when you add multiple provisions that are wholly unrelated to the 28 pages that you presented us on Friday evening.
09:03That Friday evening presentation seemed to be designed to minimize scrutiny of what you were doing.
09:08But not included in that 28 pages is any mention of salt whatsoever, a matter that seems to have gendered some discussion in not only the Democratic caucus, but in the Republican caucus.
09:21Your expansive definition includes an entirely new $20 billion voucher system that seems to encourage parents to abandon our public schools.
09:31You helped throw millions of Americans out of their health plan.
09:35You repeal all the renewable energy credits that was not in Friday night, which have been generating so many new jobs, especially in Republican districts.
09:43You've given the Trump administration dangerous new authority to impose capital punishment on non-profit universities, civic and charitable organizations.
09:53And you have established a new category of tax-preferred savings accounts, which were not in the base bill.
10:00House Rule 16, Clause 7, is designed to help all of us on both sides of the aisle, as members of Congress, be prepared to legislate.
10:10It's designed to prevent hasty, ill-considered decisions.
10:13You know, Mr. Chairman, last Tuesday, it was Speaker Johnson himself who said that the legislation that we're considering right now would, quote, be the most important, the most consequential legislation that we'll ever be involved in in our lifetimes, and arguably one of the biggest in the history of Congress.
10:33Shouldn't a matter of such importance, according to the Speaker, be in full compliance with the rules of the House of Representatives?
10:41At such a momentous measure, we ought to be complying with the House rules.
10:46And the precedents are clear.
10:48Under the House, there have been bills brought to the floor that have been rejected because they did not comply with the House rules.
10:58On Friday night, you set out what we were supposed to be prepared to legislate on Tuesday.
11:02And then hours ago, you totally altered it.
11:06If, as you and the President have been describing it, this is one big, beautiful bill, I have to say it's certainly hidden beauty.
11:13You certainly didn't want anyone admiring the flawless beauty very closely.
11:19By introducing a new subject matter not contemplated in Friday's base text and changing the fundamental purpose of measures before us today,
11:27this proposed substitute is manifestly non-germane.
11:31If you're rejecting the bill that you introduced on Friday night and asking us to consider this monstrosity, that is your right.
11:40But it is a right that can only be exercised after proper notice to us, which means giving members the requisite time to read,
11:48to understand it, and to prepare any necessary amendments, and to have the information that the ranking member referred to that we lack from the Joint Committee on Taxation.
11:58Mr. Chairman, I would just particularly address your attention to page 565 of the discussion of this rule in the House practice manual, which I brought along with me.
12:08Since, under the House rules, you as a sponsor of this gigantic new amendment bear the burden of proof that it is germane to the underlying 28 pages,
12:18I would just ask you to explain how it is germane and assure us that if you're applying what appears to be a very liberal interpretation of germaneness,
12:27that you do the same for any amendment that may be offered by any member of the committee.
12:34The chair is prepared to rule. The gentleman from Texas makes the point of order that the amendment proposed is non-germane.
12:40The amendment is in order, and the point of order is overruled.
12:43Mr. Chairman, on that, I would ask for a record vote.
12:46Can I have a point of clarification, please, Mr. Chairman?
12:48You have to appeal the decision of the chair.
12:52I'm appealing the decision of the chair and asking for a record vote on that.
12:55Mr. Chairman, may I have a point of clarification?
12:58It's no discussion, a pending motion.
13:00I can't ask for a point of clarification?
13:02No.
13:03I mean, we can. What is the clarification?
13:05I would like you just to clarify why the bill that you put in, the amendment in the nature of a substitute, is germane?
13:13Because it is germane. Mr. Buchanan.
13:15So there's no rationale behind it, just because you say so?
13:17Go ahead.
13:19The gentleman, Mr. Buchanan, is recognized for a motion.
