Tensions between India and Pakistan have escalated further, with Pakistan launching drone attacks for the second consecutive day targeting areas along the Line of Control.
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00:00Just about exactly at the very same time, yesterday we'd seen a drone attack from the Pakistani forces across several parts of Jammu as well as Rajasthan.
00:13Again, around 9 p.m. we are seeing Pakistan drones targeting Pathankot, Uri, Naugam and areas in and around the LOC.
00:25So what we are seeing is a very similar pattern of Pakistan using nightfall not only to do artillery fire that has continued for the last few days across the LOC but using a second wave of drone attacks across seven locations.
00:40All of them we are told by have been repelled by our air defence systems but the Pakistani drones for the second consecutive day escalating or attempting to escalate the situation with those drone attacks in several parts along the border.
00:56So clearly what you are seeing is that Pakistan in the last 24 hours if there was any hope of a de-escalation that hasn't happened India has said on more than one occasion and that was reiterated at the MEI briefing today reserves the right to respond in kind.
01:14Pakistan continuing to provoke both across the LOC and with these drone attacks all of this building up many fear to pushing the situation up an escalatory spiral which is really the concern.
01:30Indian defence air systems as we've been saying have repelled those Pakistani drones but for the second consecutive day those drones have attempted to cause great damage in the area.
01:43So what we've got is a situation where Pakistan simply doesn't seem to want to back down despite international pressure we were told this afternoon back channel talks were being attempted we are being told that the Pakistani army leadership had met with the civilian leadership including Prime Minister Shahbaz Sharif and former Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif also attended one of those meetings and there was some talk from the Pakistani side
02:13at the time that there was some talk at the time that there could be back channel talks taking place but either way as we've reached 9pm Pakistan drones targeting different parts in the Jammu sector in RS Pura in Uri India intercepting those drones in fact repelling the Pakistani drones.
02:32So for the second consecutive day what we've seen is provocation from the Pakistanis.
02:39India has made it clear on more than one occasion the response will be measured and will be focused only on retaliating.
02:48Meir Farid now joins me from Srinagar.
02:52Meir Farid tell us what is the latest you're picking up?
02:55Well Rajdeep it's escalating again and it seems the scenes of yesterday night evening are being repeated today.
03:08Same pattern is started with heavy RT fire all along the line of control especially in Oodi, Tangdar, Kupara, Naugam sector and then also if you talk of Jammu, Ponchrajori.
03:19This was followed by loud explosions being heard in Jammu city.
03:24They were not drones this time around but very close to Jammu city falls the international border
03:29and in Samba, Araspura sectors heavy artillery fire opened by Pakistani army, Indian army retaliating
03:35and then to add to that I can officially confirm this to you defense sources have confirmed this
03:40that drones have been intercepted by air defense they are being engaged and brought down at least three sectors.
03:47Then there are also reports that at the Samba Basantarnala there again there was heavy artillery fire.
03:56So it is escalating and slowly new sectors are getting into this but today what is new is the international border for the first time is seeing heavy artillery fire
04:08fire and we know international border if you talk of Jammu is very close to the city or the heart of the city or the town.
04:15And that is why they are hearing loud bangs.
04:17It's not drones this time around in main Jammu city but the artillery shells that are causing huge noise and creating panic. Rajdeep.
04:25Meer Farid there joining me with the very latest. We will come to you and the entire team of reporters as the night goes through.
04:34The situation between India and Pakistan has been escalating by the day and this has sent concerns not just in the subcontinent but across the world.
04:46What happens next and what does this escalating conflict between India and Pakistan mean for the world.
04:53Today I am joined by one of the world's leading global commentators Farid Zakaria host CNN's GPS show columnist at the Washington Post and a friend of ours.
05:05Thank you very much Farid Zakaria for joining us in this very difficult moment.
05:11Two nuclear neighbours engaged in an escalating conflict. What does this mean Farid for the world?
05:20Well it is always dangerous when you have two nuclear neighbours involved in this kind of tension.
05:27It is particularly worrying because this one does not seem to follow the pattern that you have seen really for the last 25 years.
05:36Ever since both India and Pakistan developed nuclear capacity, nuclear weapons capacity, there has been a tendency to have managed escalation and managed de-escalation.
05:50But both sides realise that there are dangers here of escalating and that it could get out of hand.
05:57And so there has always been a somewhat choreographed process by which these hostilities are managed.
06:03That does not appear to be happening here.
06:06And what worries me greatly is that in this environment you could easily imagine a miscalculation, a misperception, a stray drone, a stray missile,
06:17hitting targets it was not intended to.
06:20And there do not seem to be mechanisms to be able to bring this down and bring this, you know, to land this plane in a way that causes minimal harm,
06:32both to India and Pakistan but to the broader environment.
06:35You know, I'll come to the ways in which this can be calmed down or de-escalated.
06:40But the fact is, nuclear deterrence has held firm for more than two decades between India and Pakistan.
06:47But how long can that alone sustain it, Fareed, is the question.
06:52Because you've got India now claiming that, look, this escalation was brought upon us by Pakistan and Park-based terrorists
07:00who attacked innocent tourists in Pahalgam.
07:03That's where this started a couple of weeks ago.
07:06And the Indian position is very clear.
07:08We are going to retaliate this time, targeted attacks on terror infrastructure.
07:13Do you believe that's a position that India has the moral high ground to take this time?
07:19Look, I do.
07:20I think that let's step back, though, and ask ourselves, what is the likely cause?
07:26What is the likely broader issue here that has animated this?
07:30Clearly, these moves emanated out of, you know, from Pakistani-sponsored militias, whether directly or not.
07:38I think what is going on is you have a crisis of legitimacy in Pakistan.
07:43Let us be clear, Pakistan's most popular politician is in jail.
07:49The people who are responsible for putting him there, the Pakistani military, are deeply unpopular.
07:55Perhaps for the first time in a long time in Pakistani history, the Pakistani military does not have the kind of easy legitimacy that they've had.
08:05So one wonders whether part of these hostilities have been part of an effort to rally the Pakistani nation behind the government and, in particular, the military.
08:18Certainly, the chief of army staff's comments five days before the attacks or a few days before the attacks would lend credence to this view.
08:28But what you have is a fundamental problem politically in Pakistan that might have erupted, and now India has to manage it.
08:36The fact that India may have the moral high ground does not absolve it, however, of maintaining the strategic high ground of trying to calm the situation.
08:45At the end of the day, India has the moral high ground, but it has the most to lose from a massive escalation here.
08:54Pakistan, if I can be honest, is already a basket case economy. There's not much, you know, I mean, there's not much further to fall.
09:02India, on the other hand, is on a high growth trajectory right now. Peace and prosperity are very important to it.
09:08So it has the moral high ground, let it take the strategic high ground as well.
09:13But even if we want to take the strategic high ground, India has made it more than clear on more than one occasion in the last few days, Farid,
09:20that India's attacks are measured, focused, and are essentially not seeking to escalate.
09:26But the fact is the Pakistani military establishment, the army state, seems to be wanting an escalating conflict.
09:33You've heard General Asif Munir a few weeks ago saying Hindus and Muslims can't coexist, that, you know, the two-nation theory is still alive, Kashmir is the jugular vein.
09:44So you've got a leader, military leadership in Pakistan that seems to be itching to broaden this conflict for whatever reason.
09:52I think you're right, and that's why I pointed to this, you know, this seems to emanate out of a desire in Pakistan to rally the country around the military.
10:05The challenge still remains. India has a lot to lose from this spiraling out of control.
10:11So is there a way for it to be the more responsible party, to find a way to manage this down?
10:18You know, if this blows up, you know, nobody is going to care whose fault it was.
10:26It's like, you know, imagine one of these massive, you know, traffic accidents.
10:30At the end of the day, there's going to be a huge amount of collateral damage.
10:34And as I say, India is the country that will bear the greatest cost because it will derail India from what is otherwise a very, very powerful growth trajectory.
10:44In fact, you know, look, India was poised to perhaps become the, you know, the alternative to China as a manufacturing powerhouse of all kinds of good things happening here.
10:54Let's all I'm saying is let's not forget that that's the goal, that the goal is to raise the living standards of Indians.
11:01But how does how does India deescalate when your neighbor seems to be constantly provoking, even as you and I speak now that have been more drone attacks from across the border?
11:11So it almost seems as if the the enemy state on the other side or Pakistan is pushing India into a escalating spiral.
11:21How do you deescalate when one side seems determined to escalate it further?
11:27You know, part of the challenge here is that we have we have lost the United States as a kind of useful intermediary as a country that could talk to both sides and try to manage this deescalation down so that you, you know, you communicate to both sides.
11:45You calm them down. You saw Marco Rubio, the secretary of state, lean into that kind of role initially.
11:52And that seemed to represent the traditional American role that that the United States has played for the last several decades.
11:59Every time one of these things has happened.
12:01But then a few hours later, J.D. Vance, the vice president, essentially washes his hands off the whole situation and says the U.S. doesn't want to get involved.
12:10So there you see the tension in America between the old traditional engaged superpower and the now more isolationist wing of the of the part of the Republican Party in Vance saying, you know, we're washing our hands of this.
12:26Do whatever you want. So because of that, you don't have a, you know, a party that's that's trusted.
12:31And frankly, the U.S. is now less trusted by Pakistan than it was 10 or 15 years ago.
12:37The Pakistanis believe the U.S. has become entirely pro-Indian.
12:41So you have a problem normally in these situations.
12:45What is helpful is an intermediary, someone who can speak to both sides.
12:49And that has that doesn't exist right now.
12:52You see, that is precisely the problem, Farid, that you you've struck at the Trump administration.
12:58The impression we get in India doesn't want to get deeply involved.
13:02I remember during Cargill, President Bill Clinton actually made a serious effort and eventually succeeded in brokering a peace is for Donald Trump.
13:10Is the region not important? Is he too preoccupied with other issues?
13:13We heard the State Department spokesperson saying, yes, we all stand up against terror, but we want this tit for tat retaliatory action to stop almost once again hyphenating India and Pakistan.
13:26Is the Trump administration conscious of Indian sensibilities?
13:29And is it a top priority for this administration, given that it's got issues both domestically and with the Russia Ukraine conflict?
13:38Yeah, I wouldn't read too much into the the statements being put out by the State Department and by the Trump administration, because, frankly, I think they're just not that interested in the world there.
13:51It is a it is a kind of Fortress America mentality which says whatever is going on outside, let it happen.
13:57We don't really care very much. And the danger here is that this is a place where the United States has very effectively used its diplomatic and moral authority to to to calm tensions down.
14:12I think, you know, I hope this is not the case.
14:16But we this may be the new world we're in, a world without a superpower, a world without a country that tries to manage these tensions.
14:25And these local conflicts can therefore spiral.
14:29And that is the danger here very clearly.
14:32So given what you're saying that the United States seems reluctant, dare I say, to play some kind of a global policeman, certainly in the context of South Asia, who does India turn to?
14:44Because India has made it very clear in the past, we are not going to allow Pakistan to internationalize Kashmir, which has been an attempt made by the Pakistanis from time to time.
14:53Who does India turn to to try and rein in the Pakistani military leadership from doing the kind of misadventure or miscalculation that you spoke about earlier?
15:05Well, you ask a very good question.
15:07You know, this is a kind of broader question for the world in a way, because if you don't have the United States, who do you have?
15:14As you say, India is not going to trust.
15:16I mean, what are the options?
15:18The UN, India has a long history of not wanting the UN involved in this.
15:22China, certainly the Chinese have influence with Pakistan, but India would not trust China as an intermediary at all.
15:32The European Union, they're just too, you know, they're not really a single entity.
15:38They don't have powerful geopolitical, geomilitary presence.
15:42So this is the post-American world that I worried about.
15:47You are seeing it in South Asia.
15:49And what it means is dangers of conflict spiraling out of control.
15:54I return to the reality.
15:56India is the bigger, the more powerful, the richer country, and it has the most to lose.
16:04So I'm hoping in some way, India has the capacity.
16:08And you are right, Rajdeep.
16:09India is trying to signal a more measured approach.
16:13And you have to hope that at some point that Pakistan realizes that this is not a conflict they can win.
16:23The other issue that this Indian leadership, Narendra Modi's leadership says, look, we are not going to adopt a doctrine of strategic restraint of the kind that we saw when Mr. Vajpayee was Prime Minister or Manmohan Singh.
16:35You saw what happened after 26-11 in Mumbai.
16:38India adopted a policy by and large of strategic interest while trying to diplomatically isolate Pakistan.
16:44India under Modi, Uri, then Balakot, now in Pahlkam, has gone up an escalatory ladder saying we'll give kinetic action.
16:53Enough is enough when it comes to park-based terror.
16:55Is that a dangerous approach at one level to take or the right approach to take?
17:00Because how do you then stop the terror emanating out of Pakistan?
17:06Look, this has been the problem for 50 years, as you know, Rajdeep.
17:10The Pakistani military has played this game of encouraging an ecosystem of militant groups and jihadis, some of which it controls, some of which it may not control.
17:21But it's spawned a whole world of terror and militancy.
17:27Now, how do you put the genie back in the bottle?
17:31The worry I have is that if you find it, I understand the logic behind hitting hard and all that.
17:39The danger is these things can spiral out of control.
17:43It's very easy to start a war.
17:46It is very hard to stop it.
17:48Think about, you know, the U.S. in Iraq, in Afghanistan.
17:52Think of the Israelis now in Gaza, where they have been saying, you know, they perfectly understandably had the moral justification to hit back after the October 7th attack.
18:05But it's now been a year and a half.
18:07They keep, you know, it's easy to start these things.
18:11It's very hard then to, in some way, wind them down.
18:16But do you believe that kinetic action is the way to take on cross-border terrorism?
18:21As I said, in the past, India has tried various, you know, India has been willing to adopt a policy of strategic restraint in the hope that Pakistan will see sense.
18:31But this jihadi factory continues to strike every now and then.
18:36So, I mean, given an option, are you saying that strategic restraint is still preferable even in the times that we live in?
18:44As you've said, there's the Israeli approach that's taken that we're going to give them back as good as we get.
18:49And the Indian approach now under Prime Minister Modi seems to be taking us up an escalatory ladder without a sense of certainty as to what lies ahead.
18:59I think it's the uncertainty which is troubling.
19:02Is that, once again, Fareed, the right way to go?
19:05See, what I worry about, Rajdeep, is yes, you can hit back and I think in the short term it is understandable.
19:12But then what is the longer term strategy?
19:16India has tried various approaches like this in the past.
19:20In the long run, the only strategy that seems to me to make sense is, yes, have deterrence, hit back hard, demonstrate that you can punch back as hard as you get punched, maybe even more.
19:34But then you need some diplomatic channels, some political process to reach some kind of strategic understanding with Pakistan.
19:42And what I would say is that's the area where I think India could do more.
19:46It is, again, because India is the bigger, the stronger, the richer party, ultimately you're only going to solve this with some kind of political dialogue and arrangement with Pakistan.
19:58It's not going to happen now in the heat of this tension, in the heat of these Pakistani attacks.
20:04Of course, there's going to be, the Indians are going to strike back and it's understandable.
20:10But my point is, in the long run, is that the best way to solve this problem or is there a path forward?
20:17And look, there's always been this fundamental problem.
20:19Pakistan needs this for the Pakistani military to play the central role in Pakistan society.
20:26That is the fundamental problem that, you know, if I believe, I truly believe that what Imran Khan was doing was by threatening the supremacy of the Pakistani military.
20:38He could have taken the country down a road where you could imagine a very different situation.
20:43But the way Pakistan is governed with the military at the heart of it, they need this conflict.
20:49So that is the challenge.
20:52Because it's often said, Fareed, that every country has an army.
20:55In Pakistan, the army has a country.
20:57And this has been a problem that Pakistan has had to wrestle with over the last 75 years, since 47 period, long periods,
21:04where the army has completely dictated terms to the civilian leadership.
21:08Is that the fundamental skewed nature of Pakistan?
21:11Some call it a failed state. Others call it a dysfunctional state.
21:14How would you see Pakistan today?
21:17I think it's actually been described best by a Pakistani, Hussain Haqqani,
21:22who talked about basically the reality of modern Pakistan in the last 40 years after Zialhuk,
21:28is that the Pakistani military realized that in order to bolster its legitimacy,
21:34it needed to ally with very extreme parts of the Islamic fundamentalist movement, very militant parts.
21:42And that Faustian bargain is at the heart of the rot that has been created,
21:49because it has created a kind of Frankenstein's monster that it sometimes controls, sometimes cannot control.
21:55And they've never found a way to dial back from that.
21:58And so that's, you know, that's the heart of the problem.
22:01And I do have a lot of sympathy, therefore, with people who say that India just needs to keep deterrence up,
22:07just keep, you know, push back the exact amount you have to push back.
22:11We could we could argue about because I don't want this to escalate.
22:14But I do think it is important to search for some kind of political, you know, process that can at least, for example, in moments of crisis like this,
22:26where there would be a channel or, you know, a hotline or something like that.
22:31To me, what is what is so sad about the situation and so dangerous is not only are the two countries whipping themselves up into a nationalist fervor,
22:39there's very little communication, not just at the top between the leadership, not even at the military for miscommunication.
22:46But even the two media ecosystems of the two countries exist now in kind of two hermetically sealed, you know, systems.
22:55They know almost nothing about what's going on, the whole, you know, which makes it all the more dangerous.
23:01That's that's brilliantly put there, Farid.
23:04I want to come to another aspect to it, which is China.
23:07You mentioned already in the show so far on three different occasions, India emerging as this strong economy,
23:14possibly as, you know, China plus one as an alternate to China for manufacturing and supply links.
23:21At a moment like this, China, which has often seen Pakistan as an ally, some would call it almost as a vassal state of China.
23:30Do you believe that the Chinese are playing also a dangerous game here, allowing this instability to perpetuate maybe dare one say,
23:40and there's been speculation goading Pakistan into this escalating conflict with India?
23:47Yes. Look, I don't think it's strategically wise for the Chinese.
23:51Frankly, if the Chinese were to be more strategically enlightened about this,
23:59they would try to play the role of an honest broker. They would rein in the Pakistanis.
24:03They would use the enormous influence they have with Pakistan, and that would earn them some credibility with India.
24:09You know, if the Chinese really want to think about playing a clever game here,
24:15the way to deal with the challenge from America would be to improve ties with India,
24:22you know, to improve the relationship between India and China.
24:27In fact, they have fallen into an old pattern as far as I can see.
24:31Pakistan is essentially, I don't know, I'd call it a vassal state, but it's deeply dependent on China,
24:37and the military has become even more dependent as they worry about the fact that they're going to lose America as their great weapons supplier.
24:45You know, that is what the Pakistani military believes, that India will essentially become the American military power of choice.
24:55They will lose out, so they've moved to China. But from the Chinese point of view, I think it's a miscalculation.
25:01But Xi Jinping has made many bad foreign policy moves. This is just one of them.
25:06You know, India also, Fareed, in the last couple of weeks, has looked at other ways in which to put pressure on Pakistan.
25:14There's diplomatic pressure, there's also the major move taken of holding the Indus Water Treaty in Abay and seeing water as a weapon.
25:21Do you believe, therefore, in today's world, we need to look at other ways in which countries are put under pressure to fall in line?
25:29The world talks about zero tolerance against terror, but when it comes to park-based terror,
25:34it seems to have allowed Pakistan to get away with impunity for too long.
25:38Do you believe, therefore, weapons like water work? And why does the world, if I may ask that,
25:43not take park-based terror with the same seriousness as it would as terror directed against the Western world?
25:51First, the Indus Water issue, I think you're exactly right.
25:57This is a very, and this is new, as you know, Rajdeep.
26:00India has not done this in the past, and it signals, I think, how seriously it takes this.
26:05I do believe that is the kind of thing that India should do to try to signal the seriousness of this situation,
26:11and also as a way to, you know, eventually have some carrots on the table that it can provide
26:17were there to be some kind of political process by which you can in some way stabilize the situation.
26:26Look, as far as the way in which the world treats this,
26:31to be fair, the world generally has recognized that this is terrorism, that it does seem to have links to Pakistan.
26:40I would put it this way. The world doesn't like to get involved in this.
26:44That's different from saying the world is tolerating it.
26:48The world sees this as a messy situation between these two very powerful nationalistic countries.
26:54And, you know, J.D. Vance's approach probably speaks for a lot of people, which is, we just don't want to get involved.
27:03It's an unfortunate approach because the U.S. has always been the country that could defuse the challenge.
27:08But in general, people look at this and say, you know, we're going to just take two steps back and let the Indians and Pakistanis handle this.
27:17You know, the reason I came to the double standards about terror, it was very interesting when the Pakistani defense minister was interviewed on Sky News about questions about Pakistan sponsoring terror.
27:27What does he say? Look, we've been doing the dirty work for the United States and various Western nations, including Britain for the last several decades,
27:35virtually pointing out that post the Afghan war in the late 70s, Pakistan became, in a sense, the epicenter of terror.
27:42And that's the concern. And that terror has not just been restricted now to attacks on India.
27:47Pakistan also has got caught up in this entire terror cycle.
27:51So, you see, the Western world, as Pakistan argues, used us in Afghanistan and now, therefore, has no moral right in a way to tell us how to deal with the jihadi factories.
28:04Well, I saw that interview, Rajdeep, and it is exactly, it illustrates precisely the problem, which is that there are still elements in the Pakistani military that believe that in fighting Islamic jihadi groups,
28:19the Pakistani military were doing America a favor rather than recognizing that by fighting these jihadi groups whom they have funded and encouraged and spawned for 50, 70 years, they were saving their own country.
28:38And that what they really need to do is to do more of that and to dismantle these groups so that not only do they not pose a threat to India, they don't pose a threat to Pakistan and to the viability of a normal, stable, democratic country.
28:53I mean, the idea that the Pakistani military thinks that, you know, the only reason they should be getting rid of crazy, nihilistic, religiously, you know, millenarian terrorists is as a favor to the West is mind boggling.
29:08So what, you would like a society in which, you know, in which these people are teeming all over the place?
29:15And by the way, you know, he may have forgotten, they've caused the deaths of tens of thousands of Pakistanis along the way, and they don't regard the Pakistani military as some great avatar, you know, of virtue.
29:28The whole thing, to me, reflected the problem in Pakistan, which is they don't get the idea that having this jihadi, you know, fifth column or whatever you want to call it, is actually bad for Pakistan.
29:45It's not, you know, they should save their own country.
29:49You know, perhaps also ensures the relevance of the Pakistan army.
29:52But Farid, as we come to the end, I just want a couple of more quick questions.
29:55One, you know, in Pahalgam, what worried people was that there was a religious profiling.
30:01People were killed after being asked their religion.
30:03And this, you know, was perhaps a deliberate attempt by the jihadi factory and their sponsors in Pakistan to stroke a Hindu-Muslim divide in India.
30:12Fortunately, India has united.
30:15But is that a fear that you have, that somewhere down the line, this is one attempt, another attempt by Pakistan to stir this Hindu-Muslim divide,
30:23all the more for India's political leadership to ensure religious harmony above all else?
30:30Look, I worry about it.
30:32But Rajdeep, I think it's fair to say that, you know, Indian Muslims have now been tested for 75 years on these issues.
30:40And really, there's very little sympathy in the, as far as I can tell, in the Indian Muslim community for Pakistani terror, for Pakistani jihadists.
30:50And, you know, time and again, people worry.
30:53And in fact, there is virtually no support.
30:56I mean, you know, look at the, and it's not just Pakistani terror, Islamic militancy in general.
31:03I mean, you know, India, India has, whatever it is, 150 million Muslims.
31:08And look around in the Islamic terror groups of the world, of South Asia, there are virtually no Indian Muslim members.
31:16You know, Indian Muslims have been loyal to the country from 1947.
31:20And I think this is one more demonstration of that.
31:24My final question to Farid, what is your, what for you is the worst case scenario of this conflict?
31:30What's the best case?
31:31Worst case scenario is definitely that it could spiral into a larger war.
31:38There is a very real danger here because both sides are locked into a situation where they seem to be unable to find a way to climb down.
31:48That is exactly what causes countries to kind of sleepwalk into war.
31:53And by sleepwalk, I mean, nobody wants a wider war, but they can't see how they can back down.
31:59And that places both of them in a position where the only option is escalate, escalate, escalate.
32:05The best case scenario at this point is still that there is a, you know, somehow this can turn into a descending spiral of violence rather than an ascending spiral of violence.
32:16In other words, each counter-terror, each counter-attack can become less pronounced than the next one.
32:23So that we're looking at this, Rajdeep, two or three days from now, and we notice, yes, there's a drone attack here, a drone attack.
32:29But the number, the incidence, the centrality is going down rather than up.
32:33And if that happens, you know, it can wind itself down.
32:37It would be very helpful for the United States to get involved.
32:41But unfortunately, at this point, it looks like this is going to be more a case of self-management rather than, you know, Washington managing it.
32:51But you're not ruling out.
32:52You're not ruling out the possibility of Washington playing some kind of a role in the coming days.
32:59I mean, it's not as if Washington cannot play a role at the moment.
33:04Look, I hope very much it does.
33:07And, you know, yes, with the Trump administration, the beauty of this administration is it can reverse itself in, you know, on a dime.
33:14If somebody, as Trump is walking to the helicopter, says, you know, don't you think you should be involved more in the India-Pakistan thing?
33:21And he says, yes, absolutely.
33:23Suddenly, the whole administration will turn on a dime and say that's exactly what we meant to do.
33:28You know, this is, there is, let's call it in a constructive manner, there is enormous flexibility in Washington these days.
33:36You know, what was black yesterday can be white tomorrow.
33:39So let's hope he changes his mind.
33:42And if you were to give one piece of advice, if Narendra Modi or someone in the Indian establishment were to call you tonight and say,
33:49Fareed, what should we do next?
33:51What would you tell them?
33:53Keep your eye on the prize.
33:54India is in a great, great trajectory.
33:59Peace and prosperity will take hundreds of millions of Indians out of poverty.
34:05Don't forget, that is the prize.
34:08Okay.
34:08Fareed Zakaria, as always, I appreciate you joining us and speaking to us with such clarity and giving us a global perspective to what's been happening here in the subcontinent.
34:20Stay well and thank you very much.
34:23Always a pleasure, Rajiv.
34:24There you are, Fareed Zakaria giving us a sense of what he feels lies ahead.
34:29Meanwhile, the big breaking news that's coming in is that second wave of drone attacks that's taken place.
34:36Pakistani drones targeting 11 locations today, scaling up in some parts by bringing in new areas into the locus of these drone attacks.
34:48So for the second consecutive night, we've had more drone attacks, Pakistan drones, swarms destroyed by India's air defense systems in Udhampur.
34:59Pakistan's civilian flights are operational during the drone attacks.
35:04And remember, today, the Indian government accused Pakistan of using civil aircrafts as a shield during these drone attacks.
35:11Pakistani drones sighted in Sambar, Rajauri, Amritsar, heavy firing reportedly in parts of Amritsar, a blackout in Srinagar after that Pakistan drone strike.
35:21Indian air defense systems engaging the Pakistani drones, Pakistani drones targeting Jammu and Kashmir, Rajasthan, Punjab.
35:29A second wave of a drone attack now by Pakistan.
35:33So those is the worry at the moment.
35:36Okay, Gaurav Sawant and Sandeep Unithan join me again.
35:39Gaurav, second consecutive night.
35:41Clearly, Pakistan at one level escalating it, but at another level, virtually doing what they did last night in terms of using drone attacks.
35:50They haven't, there's artillery firing and drone attacks that they're doing, all of which have been repelled by the Indian side.
35:56What is Pakistan, what are you picking up?
35:59What does this mean in military terms, what Pakistan's doing?
36:02So what Pakistan is doing right now are called probe missions.
36:07It's probing where India's air defenses are, how strong are India's air defenses and where India's air defenses can be weak.
36:14So it's a probe mission, it's seeking and then it will carry out that big attack as and when it chooses to Rajdeep.
36:22And this is a very precarious situation, but do keep in mind, Rajdeep, we've had 16 fatalities already after the 26 people were killed.
36:31So when those Pakistani terrorists singled out Hindus and massacred them, you know, which led to this Operation Sindur being mounted, after that they've killed Muslims, they've killed Christians and they've killed Sikhs.
36:46So that's the way Pakistan state-sponsored radical Islamist terror is bleeding our people in Jammu and Kashmir, Rajdeep.
36:54Okay, let's go straight to our correspondents.
36:57Kamal Ji, Sandhu is joining us from somewhere close to the line of control.
37:01Sunil Ji Bhatt is joining us from an undisclosed location at the moment.
37:06Ashutosh Mishra is also with us.
37:08Let me come to each of you.
37:09Sunil Ji Bhatt, last night this time you were in a bunker, explosions around you.
37:15What are you hearing and seeing around you today?
37:17Rajdeep, I am not revealing my exact location, but what I saw today was no different from yesterday.
37:28Even today there were loud explosions in the skies of Jammu.
37:32And as per our sources in the security establishment, Pakistan once again sent drones to target military installations here in Jammu region.
37:43But our air defense system was already activated.
37:47Our Sudarshan Chakra was already activated and it decimated Pakistan's drones that were sent to create mayhem in Jammu and Kashmir.
37:57But it's clear that Pakistan wants to escalate tensions in Jammu and Kashmir.
38:01And as per the latest interview of Pakistani defense minister, he is saying that now there is only one option, that is a full-fledged war.
38:11So Pakistan is rattled, it's frustrated, it's now targeting even civilian areas.
38:16We have seen that how in Punj district of Jammu and Kashmir, innocent people have been targeted, non-combatants have been targeted.
38:24And the administration is making all kind of arrangements.
38:26People have been evacuated, relief camps have been set up and all kind of facilities are being provided to the people there.
38:33Jammu and Kashmir chief minister, Umar Abdullah, you know, was in Srinagar.
38:37He came to Jammu today by road and he visited the relief camps.
38:41He took stock of the situation.
38:42He also visited government medical college, Jammu, where he also inquired about the health of the people who were injured in Pakistani shelling.
38:49But there is panic in Jammu city, that is why administration is time and again issuing, you know, advisories and asking people not to panic.
38:56They should remain alert.
38:57There is nothing to worry.
38:58The only thing they should do is that they should confine themselves to their homes.
39:02Security forces are doing their job.
39:04They are on high alert.
39:05But this evening, there were, you know, siren sound after siren sound and then there were loud explosions.
39:12I myself saw these explosions and the drone activity that was happening.
39:17And our alert troops on ground have foiled the nefarious designs of the enemy.
39:24The situation remains very sensitive in Jammu.
39:27Its blackout is still there.
39:29But the administration is appealing to people that they should not panic.
39:33They should confine themselves to their homes.
39:35There is nothing to worry.
39:37You're saying there's nothing to worry at the moment.
39:40Let me bring Kamaljeet Sandhu in at the moment.
39:43Kamaljeet, you've also had a tough two days.
39:45What do you pick?
39:46Is this an escalation over yesterday or very similar?
39:54Well, it's quite similar to what happened yesterday.
39:56These are surveillance drones.
39:58These are swarm drones.
39:59This is something of a mischief done by Pakistan.
40:02Because remember, this is what they're trying to test patients of India at this point of time.
40:06Remember, multi-city drone attack which is taking place.
40:10But remember, these are not with payloads.
40:13So in particular, these are there as part of spies.
40:16And this is what an anticipated move by them is.
40:19As per intelligence, this could be a deception because they eventually can kind of target other cities as well.
40:25The other is that if they're targeting 36 locations as they did yesterday with 300 to 400, these kind of drones being sent across, it also means that they could eventually launch an official target just about in few of the locations.
40:40So this is what is being thought out by intelligence agencies.
40:45But clearly, all troops are alert, especially at line of control.
40:50Remember, there is a dual problem here.
40:51Because one, there's a heavy artillery shelling, especially across line of control, maybe in Odi and Pudh sectors.
40:58The other sectors being also impacted.
41:00The other bit is obviously the latest is the conventional warfare where drones have made an entry and the sort of mischief being done by Pakistan at this point of time.
41:10But remember, this is only a short span of time where forces can really react to it.
41:15And that is why all the air defense system has already been activated.
41:19But the next few hours or days could be extremely crucial.
41:23We were already anticipating 24 to 48 hours.
41:26But remember, Pakistan has already said that this is not it.
41:30That they said once we will respond, India would know, the world would know.
41:35So something is definitely in the offing.
41:37We don't know what it is.
41:38But meanwhile, it is Indian forces preparedness which is in place.
41:42And that is why they're very quickly countering these particular drones which are coming into the Indian airspace.
41:48Okay.
41:49We also have Ashutosh Mishra joining us.
41:51Ashutosh, you're also at an undisclosed location.
41:54Presumably blackouts there as well.
41:56What are you hearing around you?
42:03Rajdeep, just a short while ago, we heard artillery firing in Naushera sector.
42:09So Naushera sector being a very large sector.
42:13In fact, drones were also spotted passing towards another sector from this area.
42:17In fact, intermittent, we can hear the medium arms being fired and also shelling, artillery shelling, which is a very loud noise that can be heard.
42:26And that's exactly why we're taking shelter in the safe areas.
42:30So clearly it's a time where the people are literally panicked and scared.
42:34There is a sense of fear.
42:35And even in those areas like Araspura and other where they haven't heard at least more than a decade these kind of firing or these kind of aggression by Pakistan.
42:43And this is continuously happening two days from Jammu to entire western sector that Pakistan, the way it is engaging.
42:49And subsequently, of course, there is a response by proportionate response by the Indian armed forces as well.
42:55The air force striking down the source of aggression.
42:59But clearly what we say that whatever people are unable to send so far, Pakistan, it is not ready to back off.
43:05And even on today that we see for at least 30 minutes, the way they are showing the aggression, there is an evacuation process.
43:13Let me also give you the brief detail about the operation that were carried out.
43:16The entire line of control area where we are in some of these sectors have been traveling all these areas.
43:21There is a preparedness to deal with such kind of.
43:22And remember, Rajdeep, there was always experts been saying that now even the conventional war like this will be only fought by the air assays.
43:30And thus we see the cheap drones, the swam drones, and which were easy to understand.
43:34It is probably provided by Turkey because they have the expertise in these kind of swam drone making.
43:41And thus we have seen they are also providing to Iran and other such nations.
43:44These drones have been attacked targeting the military installations, targeting the airstrips that we see.
43:50There were massive evacuations that were done by the administration.
43:53People have been evacuated.
43:54The blackout has been announced.
43:56All these areas, there is no electricity.
43:58To ensure that these drones, you know, we camouflage our territory, we camouflage and to make a literally blind to any projectile that has come or even the fighter just if they are at all dare to enter in the Indian territory.
44:09Right.
44:10Okay.
44:10I appreciate all of you joining us.
44:13Stay safe.
44:13I want to ask both Sandeep and Gaurav the big question.
44:18What is Pakistan up to with these drone attacks?
44:21Given, Sandeep, that yesterday they didn't inflict any real material damage on the ground or cause any casualties, what is Pakistan doing?
44:30Is it provoking India to try and go up the escalatory ladder, something that India has been stoutly resisting for the last couple of days?
44:38Absolutely, Rajdeep.
44:39What they're trying to do is basically, you know, provoke us, needle us.
44:44And as Gaurav was saying, probe our air defenses as well.
44:48Probe our defenses, you know, map where the radars are, where the missile systems are, how quickly the air defense systems, the artillery are able to, you know, respond.
44:58All of this is being watched very closely, you know, but the other dangerous thing, Rajdeep, I see is that they're trying to lull us into some kind of predictable behavior where they do this night after night.
45:10And before you know it, there could be a surprise attack, something that out of the normal, you know, this is what militaries do.
45:17Usually they lull the adversary into a kind of set pattern of predictable behavior.
45:22And then before you know it, the strike comes through.
45:26And that is what possibly the Pakistan military is doing.
45:28So I completely understand why the Indian side is treating all of these attacks, these drone incursions, even though they're not armed, they're treating them with the seriousness that they deserve.
45:39Because it's a very, very carefully thought out strategy.
45:43It's a low cost strategy on Pakistan's part right now.
45:46Most of these drones are very cheap.
45:48They cost, you know, a couple of hundred dollars, but the kind of effort that we are, you know, doing in acquiring these targets, you know, shooting off ammunition and all that, they're trying to make this into a low cost, long attrition game.
46:02You know, basically what they're doing, Rajdeep, is back in the day, you know, many years back, it used to be a small arms fire along the line of control and sometimes in the international border as well.
46:12Pakistan has gradually moved up from small arms into these kind of drone incursions, you know, to cause panic, to terrorize the civilian population.
46:22And, you know, when you see air defense guns going off, you know, sirens, you know, blaring, blackouts being declared, that has an effect on the population.
46:30And that is, that seems to be Pakistan's immediate game for the present, Rajdeep.
46:36You know, Gaurav, it's interesting. Most of these drones are Turkish-made. Give us a sense of what, you know, what kind of equipment does the Pakistani military arsenal possess?
46:48Are these drones now an integral part of what their arsenal is?
46:53Drones are an absolute disruptive technology. They're a game changer. Pakistan has invested heavily in drones.
47:01And Rajdeep, this is actually the Hamas playbook that Pakistan has also adopted.
47:05And clearly, you know, they're learning from the terrorists. And that's exactly how Hamas targets Israel, fires a lot of rockets, uses drones in a way.
47:16The entire Iron Dome system gets activated in Israel. But, you know, India is actually a step ahead, reading this technology and responding.
47:26If you notice, Rajdeep, all the way from Leh to Sir Creek, which is from Ladakh to Gujarat, India has both kinetic and non-kinetic means that are being adopted.
47:36So some of these are being taken down through jammers. India is also assessing Pakistan.
47:40And India is systematically degrading Pakistan's warfighting abilities while being reactive. How?
47:48First, their air defense system around Lahore was taken down, something that was admitted.
47:52And today, again, on record, India said that four kamikazi drones were mounted and one air defense system was taken down in Pakistan's Punjab province.
48:02Now, these are very expensive air defense systems that Pakistan has. They cost anything between 1,600 to 1,800 crore rupees.
48:09And where is the replacement? So that is where Pakistan also becomes equally vulnerable should there be a counter assault from the Indian side.
48:17So both sides are literally testing each other's capabilities.
48:20Hold your thoughts, gentlemen. After India, just to tell you what's been happening on the ground through the day.
48:26Because after India launched a precision counter-strike in response to Pakistan's unprovoked attack on military installations on the 9th of May 8th,
48:35Islamabad hit back and has been hitting back not at the armed forces, but at innocent civilians.
48:41Heavy shelling raining down on villages near the LOC, especially in Poonch, leaving behind a trail of destructions.
48:48Homes shattered, lives lost, and wounds that run far deeper than just the physical.
48:52Tears, trauma, and irreversible loss. That's what Pakistan's provocation has cost the people of the border areas.
49:00Take a look at today's special report from the ground.
49:09Relentless artillery shelling by Pakistan along the line of control.
49:16In the line of fire, innocent civilians.
49:22Newly married, Rishi and Shruti recount how Thursday night turned out to be a night of horror for them.
49:31A shell landed close to their house in Rajauri district, causing much damage.
49:36What did you see from the night's point of view from the night?
49:39What was the situation we see from the back of the night?
49:41You have seen the drone and their shells hit us off of the night.
49:43What was the case?
49:44You should save every life.
49:46Yes, ma'am.
49:47We had saved this plan.
49:48At night, it was almost 2 o'clock in the morning, and the firing Hall began to go on receiving.
49:51And we had a hard time for the night, so we had had to be very difficult to be out.
49:53We had to pay you out of need to find out.
49:55And we had to pay you out of the night.
49:57So we had to pay you out of need for the night.
49:58Right front of your house was so much, the night to go on.
49:59And it was very difficult.
50:01Several houses in the region were hit.
50:31Many took shelter in a nearby bunker.
50:55The wound is the worst hit.
51:25The wound is the worst hit.
51:55Many victims of shelling were shifted from Salamabad village in Uri to Baramulla for treatment.
52:07Zenath, injured in the attack, breaks down when asked about her house.
52:25The wound is the worst hit.
52:26The wound is the worst hit.
52:27The wound is the worst hit.
52:32With Pakistan suffering major setbacks in the last two days of conflict, incidentally sparked
52:39off by the terror attack on tourists in Pehelgaam on April 22nd, villages along the line of control
52:46are likely to face more heat in the coming days.
52:49With Ashutosh Mishra, Kamaljeet Sandhu and Amit Bhardwaj, Bureau Report, India Today.
52:56Okay.
52:57The other big news of the moment is that India's Foreign Minister, External Affairs Minister S.
53:06Jaishankar has reached the Prime Minister's residence.
53:08Conversation there with the NSA.
53:11There have been reports since this afternoon of some attempt made at Back Channel Talks.
53:17We heard that yesterday as well.
53:18But those diplomatic moves have not made much headway.
53:21And Pakistan clearly, as we've been saying, has been trying to push India up the escalatory spiral.
53:28The other big story, of course, is that in all these drone attacks got up,
53:32there has been no damage on the ground or to civilians.
53:34So while Pakistan continues to violate the ceasefire in Uri, Poonch and Jammu,
53:39the truth of the matter is, purely in terms of damage done, very little.
53:43So it seems more psychological just to send out this message every night
53:47that we are still almost in war mode, if I may use the word, with India.
53:54Or in conflict mode with India.
53:56It indeed is, Rajdeep.
53:57And very serious conflict mode.
53:59Look at the manner in which all along India's border belt with Pakistan.
54:04Airports have been shut down.
54:0624 airports shut down till the 15th morning.
54:09That's 0.1, 0.2.
54:11Each night there's a blackout.
54:12Each night markets.
54:14And look at that Sector 17 market in Chandigarh.
54:17Bustling market till 10.30, 11 at night.
54:19Shut down at 5.00.
54:20So you're absolutely right that something's also cooking.
54:23But this is something that plays out two ways, Rajdeep.
54:26While a lot of information from Pakistan is sketchy,
54:29but the fact that there have been strikes in Pakistan,
54:33including at their air defence system,
54:35and the fact that their defence minister comes up with a lame excuse
54:38that they didn't switch on their radars
54:39because they didn't want to give away their position,
54:42does seem to indicate that Pakistan remains in a state of disarray.
54:45But since it is a radical Islamist terrorist state,
54:48it knows how to wade through that disarray.
54:51We are a prosperous democracy.
54:53So that's where the conflict comes.
54:55They don't have much to lose.
54:57We have a lot to lose.
54:58But then we also have a lot to gain, Rajdeep.
55:00You know, Fareed Zakaria made the point to me,
55:02and I think that, you know, needs reiteration.
55:04India is actually in a sweet spot at the moment.
55:06India is in a position at the moment to take the economy forward.
55:10We do not want war or the prospect of war or an escalating conflict
55:15to derail us from our primary goal, which is the economy.
55:18So that is the challenge in a way that India has at the moment.
55:21But I'm joined by my colleague, Akshita Nand Gopal at the moment from the newsroom.
55:26Akshita, what do you have for us?
55:27Rajdeep, we, you know, had a mention by the Foreign Secretary, Mr. Vikram Misri,
55:32in his briefing this evening where he mentioned how, last night,
55:35during the failed attempts by Pakistan to target our civilian settlements
55:39and military establishments with drones and missiles,
55:41you also had civilian aircraft moving in Pakistan airspace at the same time.
55:45So we decided to track down and see if that's the case today as well.
55:49And look what we have here.
55:51Now, I'll highlight a couple of things for you in this particular map.
55:54We're tracking live flight movement along north and west of India completely empty
55:59because we've shut down our airports.
56:01Not risking civilian aircraft travelling in this particular area now.
56:04Contrast that to Pakistan right now, Rajdeep Gaurav.
56:07You do see movement of civilian aircraft.
56:10What I particularly want to highlight here is this particular aircraft.
56:13Very, very close to the border, headed to Lahore in fact.
56:17This is a flight which is right now headed to Lahore.
56:20It's a Boeing 777.
56:22So again, very, very close to where these drone and missile strikes are happening.
56:26What India highlighted is exactly this.
56:28That last night too, just as Pakistan was firing these drones, missiles at us,
56:33you had a flight, a civilian aircraft moving towards Lahore.
56:37And therefore, the IAF, the Indian Air Force exercised maximum restraint
56:41to ensure that there would be no chance of a civilian aircraft being hit by any counter
56:46that we also put forth.
56:47So same tactic essentially that Pakistan is using again,
56:50where they keep their airspace open, allow civilian aircraft to move through,
56:54putting their own civilians also at risk as a result.
56:59Right, there you've got Akshita giving us those details.
57:02That is very worrying.
57:03What was told in that briefing that Pakistan was using civilian aircraft
57:08as shields for these drone attacks.
57:10Explain that, Sandeep, for us.
57:11What does that mean?
57:12Well, you know, Rajdeep, as Gaurav just said that when there are tensions,
57:17you know, air nations, especially when you have a dense AD environment,
57:21you have threats, drones, missiles, fighter jets being flown around.
57:25Nations usually shut down their airspace, as India has done.
57:28We've shut down 24 airports.
57:30There's an entire swath of Indian territory where you won't see aircraft flying
57:34right from Jammu and Kashmir all the way down to Gujarat.
57:38That's nearly 3,000 kilometres of the border with Pakistan.
57:42But Pakistan, after closing its airspace on the first day,
57:45has chosen to open its airspace to commercial aircraft,
57:48thereby providing their actions like these drone strikes,
57:53these drone probing missions, you know, covering them,
57:56shielding them from possible retaliation by India.
57:59And this is a very dangerous situation, Rajdeep.
58:02It complicates our response to Pakistan's drone incursions
58:07on possibly their military retaliation as well.
58:10Because what would happen, we all know what happened in Ukraine
58:13about 10 years back when there was an air defence missile that brought down MH-15,
58:20a Malaysian airliner.
58:21And that's why, you know, passengers, aircraft usually steer clear
58:26of conflict zones like this one.
58:28But in this case, Pakistan has chosen, it seems, to endanger civilian aircraft
58:33by allowing them to fly with impunity as Akshita has just shown on that flight radar display.