Ханс Лейтенс: на изменение культуры Frontex уйдут все три оставшихся года

euronews (на русском)

Исполнительный директор Frontex говорит, что хотел бы, чтобы Греция соблюдала свои международные обязательства, когда речь идет об обеспечении безопасности уязвимых беженцев и мигрантов, которые зачастую добираются в Европу на немореходных судах.

Transcript

00:00Продолжение следует...

00:30Hans Leitens, Executive Director of Frontex.

00:32Thank you very much for joining us on the Europe Conversation.

00:35You're welcome.

00:36So Frontex is 20 years coming up to this year.

00:39It was obviously created to protect the border of the European Union, but it's growing.

00:44I mean, politically speaking, Ursula von der Leyen, the President of the Commission,

00:47would like to increase the staff to around 30,000 from where we are now,

00:51which is in and around 3,000 staff.

00:53It started actually even less ambitious than that.

00:56It started with being more of an information hub.

01:00It was only in 2019 when our mandate became executive.

01:06Right now we are still in the build-up, so in 2027 we should have 10,000 to be deployed in 2028.

01:11One of the things that does obviously come into your mind when you think of Frontex as pushbacks,

01:17where we've seen certain coast guards, in particular Greece has been accused of this many times.

01:21Obviously Greece is a country that has been very much heavily on the front line

01:24when it comes to migration for at least the past decade.

01:27But that people are being pushed back away from the coastline, deep into the sea,

01:33on unseaworthy vessels where often they die.

01:36I mean, we had the case of the Adriana, where 600 people died.

01:40And you see all of those images of little children spread around the coastline dead.

01:45Can you tell us about that?

01:46Because Frontex does come under a lot of criticism for it not taking enough of its responsibility there.

01:52Well, to start with, I think every single casualty hurts.

01:56Hurts, of course, the families, but also hurts us.

01:58Because when we took up our job, we promised to serve and protect.

02:01So we're not sort of the enemy.

02:03They're not our opponents.

02:05This migration is a fact of life, and we have to deal with it.

02:07We have to manage it.

02:08So that's to start with.

02:10Then, secondly, I think it's important that we support the member states.

02:15Indeed, we see and we also observe ourselves that sometimes there are incidents.

02:21They're reported by us.

02:22They're investigated by the Fundamental Rights Office in most cases.

02:26But also the follow-up of these incidents are with the member states.

02:30I have to work with the fact that there is a rule of law that's functioning

02:35because it's the Commission who needs to make sure that every member state has a rule of law that functions.

02:40Emily O'Reilly, the former EU Ombudsman, was very critical of Frontex,

02:44or at least asked the question, is it responsible for saving lives at sea?

02:48Because actually you're taking the European Union, the Commission, into this

02:52if you advocate your responsibility.

02:54And the Adriana was one case in point.

02:55This happens all the time.

02:57Difficult thing is, to start with, we are not a search and rescue agency as such.

03:02What we do is, in the course of our mandate, meaning protecting borders,

03:06if we run into something that might be a case where a ship is in distress, for example,

03:12we play our role in alarming the responsive and responsible member state or third country,

03:19depending on where it happens.

03:20That's what we did in the other case.

03:21Actually, I was myself in a monitoring room when we first spotted the ship.

03:26So I saw it myself the day before it went down, which is a terrible incident, by the way.

03:31Let me be absolutely clear about that.

03:33What we can do then is, when we had a plane, we can inform, in this case, the Greek authorities

03:38about what we see.

03:40We cannot coordinate.

03:41Okay, well, 600 people died, and it was pretty obvious that they were probably going to come

03:46into distress.

03:46I mean, obviously, you did your duty and you complied.

03:48But is there something more you could have done to ensure that those lives were not ended the

03:54way they were?

03:55I can tell you what I would like to have done, knowing what I know right now.

03:59But the question is, what did we know back then?

04:02And back then, we had one drone flying, one plane flying, and we were instructed to go to

04:07another incident south of Greed.

04:09That was a real incident.

04:10So we had to move on, because the overview of that incident was with the Greek authorities.

04:15So then we move on to the next incident, where 80 people on board, also a ship in distress.

04:21So, okay, if I would have known before what would have happened, then I would have...

04:28I mean, we proposed to the Greek authorities to send another plane twice.

04:33We have been already clear about that from the day after the incident, that we proposed this

04:37to the Greek, and both times it was ignored by the Greek authorities.

04:40That's their decisions, Dana.

04:41Because I think this is a very important point, and I know that your own fundamental rights

04:45officer, Jonas Grimheden, has complained about the Greek authorities.

04:49There are many investigations regarding Greece and this illegal pushback, where migrants are

04:56pushed away and often, obviously, suffer.

04:59Happy to focus on Greece, but let's first start with cooperating with 27 member states

05:04and a number of first countries, that's always the volume of things we do is much bigger

05:08than only in Greece.

05:10I would like in Greece to happen what I would like to happen in every country with whom we

05:14cooperate, that they comply with the rules, and that if there is an incident, and that

05:18can happen, that it is duly investigated, that it has consequences.

05:23There's also the investigation into the Syrian family of four who went to Greece, applied for

05:27asylum legally.

05:28Before their asylum process had been completed, they were forcibly put onto a plane.

05:32They ended up in Iraq.

05:34Of course, they couldn't go back to Syria.

05:36One of their complaints is that the Frontex guards or the guards there separated the parents

05:40from their children.

05:41They're trying to make Frontex accountable when it comes to human rights.

05:44The question actually is not so much about what we did, but about our responsibility.

05:49And the question is, okay, should we rely on the decision as it is presented to us by,

05:56in this case, the Greek authorities, in case we have, let's say, a part of a chain of activities,

06:03in this case, a return activity.

06:06And our position has been in the past that we cannot, because it's a national responsibility

06:12to make a decision and also to make sure that it's done in a proper way.

06:16What we do right now is we check, let's say, the step before us, and that's as far as we

06:23can go.

06:24But if the judge would decide that we are fully responsible for the whole chain of events,

06:29that would make our life very difficult.

06:31But again, that's a fact of life then, and then we have to adjust our way of working to

06:35that.

06:35In the past, Frontex has said that NGOs saving people at sea are a pull factor from migration.

06:41Do you believe that that is the case?

06:43Well, you never heard me say that.

06:45Actually, I said in the Italian Senate the opposite.

06:49I have no proof.

06:50Actually, there is scientific proof that it's not the case.

06:53So there have been academia looking at the topic, and they proved with duly investigative

06:59studies that there's no proof that it is.

07:05And I have no proof of that either.

07:06So for me, NGOs are part of the ecosystem.

07:11I'm in touch with them.

07:12We speak.

07:13We try to understand each other's positions.

07:15We try to make sure that we don't sort of block each other's, because we all see the

07:21need to save lives at sea, for example.

07:23But you see Frontex as a role in saving lives at sea.

07:26That's what you also believe.

07:27Sure.

07:28We are, yeah.

07:28Because we know that Frontex obviously uses drones and planes to spot ships coming in,

07:34and often they're brought back to places like Libya, where people, and we've seen the

07:38longstanding reporting of this, people often face torture, arbitrary arrest.

07:44Can Frontex stand over that when they know that the repercussions for those people is

07:47so grave?

07:48Let me be very clear.

07:49I wish there would have been no one returned to Libya, because I fully agree with what you

07:54just stated.

07:55That we have a professional dilemma, actually.

07:57Let me just give you an example.

08:00First of all, the Mediterranean is divided in search and rescue zones.

08:04And it's not our invention.

08:06It's UN law who sort of says, okay, who is responsible where?

08:10We do patrolling, what we call pre-frontier.

08:14That means that we fly over international waters, but it includes the search and rescue

08:18zones of, indeed, North African countries, like Libya.

08:22When we spot a ship in distress, there is no doubt in my mind that the first responsibility

08:28we have is to save lives.

08:30Okay.

08:31And if it's really in distress, we relay a medical on behalf of the ship.

08:35And if it's in Libyan territory, it's the Libyans who have to take the responsibility.

08:39And they do.

08:41And I've been asked, okay, but why don't you just skip the Libyans and only inform the

08:45NGOs?

08:45But that would mean that I would play with human lives.

08:48Because if the NGOs are not available, then there's no coordination, then people might

08:53drown.

08:53And I cannot take that responsibility.

08:55So as long, as much as I do not like people to be returned to Libya, if I have to choose,

09:00again, I'd rather save lives than not save lives.

09:03Actually, there has been a 38% drop in crossings to the EU, which is actually comparable to

09:09the time during COVID when nobody was actually moving.

09:12What do you say is the reason for this?

09:16In this specific case, I think it has to do, we know, actually, because we have proof of

09:20this, there were two ways how people moved from Tunisia to Lampedusa, for example.

09:26First way was use the ships like the Ariana.

09:28So bigger Egyptian, often fishing vessels, 500, 600 people on board.

09:35And the other way was using smaller boats.

09:38And these were makeshift metal boats.

09:41They would construct them in 24 hours.

09:43They cost about $1,000.

09:45And they could take 30 people on board.

09:47The Tunisians stepped up their enforcement there.

09:51So they stopped this modus operandi.

09:54And that actually explains right now the decrease.

09:57Because you mentioned Tunisia and Egypt, and obviously we talked about Libya before that.

10:00And the EU has done important deals with those two countries to stem the wave of migration.

10:06But would you be concerned about the human rights in those countries?

10:08I always have my concerns.

10:10And I should take them on board.

10:12Because everything we do has to be assured by, at the same time, compliance with fundamental

10:16rights and also data protection.

10:18At the same time, UNHCR is doing work in Libya right now.

10:21We are not.

10:22IOM is supporting the Libyan Coast Guard.

10:25So let's not do as if we are sort of a different species.

10:30We have to cooperate.

10:30Just before I let you go, I want to ask you, are you concerned about the rightward hardline

10:36shift amongst member states when it comes to migration?

10:39Sometimes it's perhaps tempting to sort of assume that you can be effective in border

10:44guarding without complying with fundamental rights.

10:46I think this is sort of an illusion.

10:50Actually, it's a false contradiction.

10:51I think fundamental rights is actually the basis of how we should do it.

10:55Because we are Europe.

10:56We agreed to uphold fundamental rights.

10:59We put them actually in our charter.

11:02Every country who joined the union signed by the cross to do this.

11:05And do you think that you'll be able to make sure that that is pervasive within the organization

11:11of Frontex, given, as you mentioned, the Frontex before you joined seem to have, let's

11:17say, not as much regard for that?

11:19You have to have transparency.

11:21And it's not just about the instance.

11:23It's about recruitment.

11:24It's about being a fair organization, being a diverse organization.

11:28Both in gender, but also in nationalities.

11:31So I think it means a lot.

11:33And it's actually an attribute of culture.

11:36And as you know, culture is very difficult to change.

11:38But I think we're making steps right now.

11:40I think it will take for sure the rest of my mandate, which is another three years,

11:44to really change it.

11:45And it's not only depending on me.

11:46I think it's depending on all of the leadership of Frontex.

11:49Hans Leitens, Executive Director of Frontex.

11:52Thank you very much for joining us on The Europe Conversation.

11:55You're welcome.

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