- 28/04/2025
@errol_musk back on The @AndrewEborn Show
@elonmusk @AndrewEborn Barrister, Broadcaster President @OctopusTV
ANDREW EBORN
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00:00errol it's it's so good that you could join us again uh thank you very much indeed um for those
00:22of you who don't know errol is the father of elon musk the entrepreneur and businessman
00:26who founded x.com in uh 1999 i think it was and he also was spacex in 2002 and tesla motors in 2003
00:36uh elon became a multi-millionaire in his late 20s when he sold his startup company
00:40zip to a division uh to basically compact computers and he's had ownership stakes in x corporation
00:47boring company xai f1 neural link open ai and starlink he's been described as the edison of
00:54our time and the de facto us president he's currently the richest person in the world
00:59with a net worth of 251 billion that's about 191 billion pounds and according to bloomberg's uh
01:05billionaires index he's projected to become the world's first trillionaire by 2027 if his wealth
01:11continues to grow at the current rate of 110 annually um errol it's such a delight that you could join us
01:18again i want to start off uh as i say what what i love doing about uh having you on the program
01:23is that we can unpack all of the stories that uh are there in the media we always say that if you read
01:29the uh newspaper you're uninformed if you uh don't read the newspaper you're misinformed um what i'd like
01:36what i'd like to do is to go through some of uh the stories that um we have heard about uh elon and
01:44first of all let's start off with uh politics and how he got uh involved because you in 1997 you were
01:50elected to the pretoria city uh council you were one of the youngest i think if not the youngest on
01:56that sort of basis and tell me how that all came about and whether that was the catalyst if you like
02:02for elon's interest in politics oh no no elon was very was a baby when i was a city councillor
02:07but i um you know um had been at university in various um you know sort of organizations student
02:16organizations so after university it seemed to me that one should try and keep on doing that kind
02:21of thing the first thing i wanted to do was to uh fix up things that i thought were not very good in
02:28in the town in which i lived which was pretoria and uh i i tried to have some improvements made and
02:34then i discovered the best way to do it is to stand for the council so i stood for the council and i
02:40was elected uh by landslide uh oddly enough i was very young i was only about 23 24 and the uh i stood
02:49up against the the behemoth or whatever they call it behemoth of the nationalist party and uh they they
02:57had everything you know they threw a huge tent and food for everybody and i had a tiny little tent
03:02and uh anyway i won the election and uh and i then continued as a city councillor i was not
03:09welcomed onto the council because i was the first english-speaking person in south africa has two
03:14distinct uh you know sort of european groups or white groups and that's the uh dutch group and the
03:20english group uh which has come about as a result of probably the napoleonic wars or something like
03:26that but at any rate uh these two groups have never really emerged in south africa and uh they
03:33still haven't even to this day but at that time they were very very uh part and so uh you know to
03:39be elected as an english-speaking person in pretoria which was the seat of you know the nationalist
03:44government uh was quite odd but anyway uh i was treated initially as a sort of foreigner but and not
03:51very nice at all but i soon uh said things right because uh turned out i my grandparents were in
03:57the almanacs of pretoria at the turn of the last century which was in the 1900s early 1900s whereas
04:03many of the uh you know dutch south african dutch guys who offered corners who were on the council
04:08had no uh such thing so i soon put them in their place and uh i went on to be quite an effective city
04:14councillor right it is it is phenomenal and i always love um that the story about uh i always say
04:20look so basically show me a child till the age of seven and i'll show you the man and hearing about
04:25that sort of background where you're growing up in a sort of family which is very interesting
04:28politics and i think you famously said that politics about 50 percent of life um your family
04:35is really really interesting because your parents i think were the first to fly from south africa
04:39to australia in a single engine plane and your grandmother was the first ever chiropractor in
04:45canada is that right well no that that's may's side but it's true um uh the uh may's father was
04:52a very uh you know sort of a prolific pilot private pilot and he uh came out to south africa he actually
05:01immigrated to south africa because south africa uh had uh the nationalist party had come in he was
05:07uh you know sort of more on the uh he was more in support of like the africaners of the german side in
05:13the second world war and uh when the uh uh you know uh at that time people didn't really know what
05:20was going on i suppose but anyway he he came to south africa because he felt that uh south africa
05:27was on the right track with the nationalist party and uh you know so he came here immigrated first
05:33only person i've ever heard of immigrated to south africa from canada but at any rate he uh he was a
05:39very good pilot and uh he uh did in fact uh like many uh pilots in those days uh fly very far distances
05:47and the reason that he could do it in those days was that virtually the whole of africa was a colonial
05:52uh outpost so every single country was highly organized highly friendly and had all the necessary
06:02fuel and all that sort of stuff that you would need to do such a flight and of course um he did
06:08the flight that that you're talking about in 1950 which gave him a very it was possible to do that
06:15in in later years when i flew up into africa as far as egypt and so on uh you you you had a lot of
06:21difficulty with uh you know even being shot at with uh sam's you know uh service to air missiles and
06:29things like that and um yard was much more difficult in in in my time anyway yeah so he did do that and
06:35it was very impressive i would say to do that i i think it's always that sort of catalyst isn't it
06:41when you're sort of turning around and saying if you're growing up in the household even if it's
06:44on your mother's side or your father's side and you're getting people who are basically uh
06:48breaking through all sorts of glass ceilings looking at the weld in a different way it does help
06:55shape the young elon doesn't it well yes but he didn't know any of that the old man was killed in
07:01an air crash uh uh before uh about when elon was about two years old he was killed in an air crash
07:07uh with my sister's husband the two of them unfortunately and um so where elon uh picked up
07:16was of course that i of course had an aircraft from from the day elon was born and so um you know
07:24um he grew up flying in a private aircraft he you know i did a lot of that sort of stuff i'm i mean
07:31i stood for parliament three times i can remember elon wandering around in his gray pants long grays and
07:36his white shirt during the whole election because he grew up with me and uh you know what he was doing
07:41but he'd be a school boy walking around watching all this sort of election stuff going on so i
07:46imagine he obviously would have been um he would be he was subject to a lot of that stuff he was it
07:53was in his face all the time and um so you know we've always been a sort of adventurous family we've
07:59on my side i mean we've done just about everything that you can do and and and of course that's why i was
08:05so enamored with may's family because to my mind they were the same and so uh i enjoyed them and
08:12because they were like me and and they they like to do the sort of things that i like to do and so
08:18that's why we sort of got on so well you know and um uh yeah so um but they were very uh interesting
08:26people and um uh you know they all left south africa in 89 you know the whole entire family on
08:34may's side left south africa in 89 with the sort of collapse of things in south africa after 1985
08:40and uh you know like many others they left the country so unfortunately that's the way it went
08:46but ilana was subject to he was he was you know what do you call it presented with and surrounded by
08:54interesting things all the time i mean he was up in africa with me when i was when i did a deal to
09:00at lake tanganika to uh you know sell my aircraft the big aircraft i had which i was trying to sell
09:06uh wanted to try and sell in england and uh on the way i stopped at lake tanganika and i sold it to a
09:11a company there from panama happened to be panama building roads and things in in zambia and a very
09:18strange time in zambia there was very little organization and you know if the prime minister
09:23came to the area in which you're in it's a very big country zambia then the entire area was cleared
09:28i mean everybody was cleared out and and it was simply because of you know the situation was
09:35assassination left right and center crazy behavior there was no real government of any kind you know
09:41right and it is it is incredible isn't it but but again it's sort of even whichever side it was and
09:47even though your parents if you like i mean the the young elon is still brought up if you like with
09:54that sort of mentality where you're looking at things everything is possible and i think you
09:59with your own with your own background as an engineer and uh playing with rockets yourself as
10:04as a child uh but turning around and say actually elon was a bit more ambitious to say look he's
10:08actually going to build a real one yes well you know we were always a bit odd and then i had a very
10:14strong a very very as the whole family will tell you a very very strong tough mother from britain
10:22and she was actually half south african because her father had come out to south africa during the
10:26war war and married an african school taking her back to england and that was my mother was born there
10:32and in liverpool and she came out here she was she was she was touched from every angle and and very
10:37very uh you know sort of supportive i mean you know with it with her on your side you could more or
10:43less take on just about anything and uh you know she took she was elon's uh after may left she was
10:48more or less elon's you know sort of mother de facto mother really i suppose because you know i was
10:54as a consultant you know i was always all over the show and the country and and she was always there
10:59for him we we had then gone into horses so elon was uh you know exposed to to to to throw a bit
11:05horses and riding and all that sort of stuff so yeah we we we did uh he did experience a great deal of
11:13uh of things i mean no doubt no doubt about it i mean i bought him his first real motorbike real
11:20motorbike when he was seven right it was a real motorbike i mean it wasn't a it was a real motorbike
11:26i mean what was it what what i used to have a monkey i used to have a little monkey bike is one of those
11:32little small ones was it that that sort of size that's what you used to call them monkey bikes i think
11:36when i was no no you could take this on the right on the road oh really okay oh yeah it was a
11:41it was a uh an idle jet a 50 cc idle jet and i brought him and kimber one kimber was only six
11:48and i mentioned this to kimber a few years ago and i he said to me i said when he was when i was
11:52looking at how he babies his sons at the moment at that time i said to him you know gee remember when
11:57you were six i bought your motorbike he said dad that was insane that was totally insane
12:02but at any rate um they they were doing all that kind of stuff look i mean elon and and and kimber
12:11had been to uh well all of my kids but generally if you take elon kimber they'd been to just about
12:16everywhere by the time they were 10 i mean they'd been to london paris rome you know by the time they
12:23were 12 i think they'd been to the far east the middle east america south america you know they seen
12:28just about every place there was to see and i spent what money i had instead i suppose investing
12:33in some sort of uh trust or something or whatever you call it some annuity i i took my kids all over
12:39the world and uh i even took them down amazon on on occasion not the whole amazon just for 200 miles
12:44and um that was quite an experience and and um you know so these kids um you know were exposed to
12:52all sorts of normal i wouldn't say nor abnormal things but sort of out there things you know so
12:58um i never really expected much from them as i didn't think they would go i mean i'm stupid i i
13:04really thought that they would all just sort of always follow me you know follow me around i didn't
13:09really think that when they got older they would sort of take off on their own type of thing i didn't
13:13think of that i never occurred to me and um and uh i always thought that always be like you know i'd
13:19always be supporting them or something i don't know quite know how i thought about it but
13:22you know pretty soon i i saw that i was quite wrong and when they were about 23 24 you know
13:29and they they started their first business i went over i've been trying to help them financially
13:34because it's very difficult from south africa with the money situation here being so so sort of
13:39messed up but at any rate i um did send them money to help them with their first business but it was
13:45ridiculously small just enough for rental and and stuff like food i suppose and then they suddenly got
13:50a four million dollar uh uh injection cash from from a from a company that publishes newspapers
13:57because elon went to them and said you're going in 1995 he said to them when he was like 24 he said
14:02you you're going to have to go onto the internet you know and and nobody even knew what the internet
14:06was certainly in south africa we we didn't have a wi-fi right few people had it they would have heard of
14:11it and um he went to them and said look you're going to have to go on the internet and and um and he
14:16convinced them and quite frankly i think a lot of people at the time would have said look what are
14:21you stupid or something because a lot of people were saying at the time the internet is just a fad
14:25it's just going to you know it's going to go off like the cb radios or something like that
14:29and um elon had the gumption to go to these people and say look if you don't go on they published
14:34newspapers they published 11 newspapers if you don't uh do internet publishing you're going to be
14:40you're going to be lost and they believed him and they gave him four million dollars in cash
14:46in 95 which i couldn't believe it i i said to him look take some of this money you know like
14:50two hundred thousand dollars and put it in south africa so in case you have to run away or something
14:54you know they just laughed at me but anyway they um they they turned that four million dollars into
15:01about five hundred million dollars wow in a space of about just about less than two years
15:08they turned it into well give it a take two and a half years to make it more in two and a half
15:14years they turned it into about 500 million elon was very upset when they sold the company because
15:18he figured if they could have gone on he would have turned that company into a three billion dollar
15:22company right and and how how did they do that i mean this this was just in the early days of
15:27understanding the internet and so on and so forth i mean how do they get such a tremendous multiple
15:31well they um they um that what my children just arrived they they um um uh what how did they do
15:43that yes well um they elon finished university um in um 94 or 93 or 94 92 93 somewhere there
15:56and i said to him look and he said he wants to start a business i said look i can things are so
16:01tough here in south africa i can help you and elon kimball but i can't help just you and then later
16:08kimball so whatever you do you've got to include kimball and if you do well because i'm gonna have
16:14to sell my things here you know whatever i've got a quarter of the value actually at the time
16:18right i sold a yacht that i paid 400 000 for i sold 100 000 and sent them the money but i had to
16:25and and um so i said you i can't do it twice so you're gonna have to if you do well you have to
16:30look after your sister as well so they sort of said yes and then then i uh then what elon did was
16:35he he spent an extra year at university in pennsylvania doing a degree in physics he used the
16:42credits he had and he uh to do a course in theoretical physics after he graduated from wharton
16:49uh which is a the top business school and he graduated from wharton summa cum lord which means
16:55top of the cum lords you know sort of thing and um he um so he had this extra year that he missed
17:02about there it's interesting that he did that because he then went to uh um um san francisco got a job
17:09during the vacation yeah very long vacations there and he got a job during the vacation working for
17:14pinnacle research in san jose and they were they were researching batteries deep cycle batteries
17:21that could be used in place of lead lead acid batteries in other words a capacitor if you
17:28understand the term the capacitor like you have any electronics you know as opposed to a battery
17:33which would uh capacitor can store energy but not much and and and so on but anyway the pinnacle was
17:39trying to work out a battery as capacitor that could be so good that it could be used to power
17:44motor cars and this was very fascinating to him and it was that that later on led him to look for those
17:50people uh years later uh into about 10 years later to look for those people and um and um and he met in
18:011994 in 2004 to find out what had happened to their electric car and that's what brought him to
18:08these guys who then moved into a garage and were using laptop uh batteries to power a fiberglass
18:17sports car that they built and which elon then promptly got in and drove around la and he said i want
18:23this i'm going to buy this company bought the place from them and took them out of terrible debt that
18:29they were in and um he proceeded uh with uh with tesla then uh on that basis shortly after that he felt
18:37they weren't up to the type of job that he wanted to do so he fired them and and that wasn't very good
18:42but i spoke to him about it and i explained to him that you know if you want people to spend the rest of
18:47the next 30 years hating you then do what you're doing on the other hand give them credit for the
18:52fact that they came up with the idea initially of using laptop multiple number 6800 laptop batteries
18:59to power a car and and things will be much better and elon listened and he did that and so
19:04they're all very on good terms now thank heavens and they all have credit for having started tesla
19:10and um uh they have uh i i listened to an interview with martin uh everhard and he said uh at the moment
19:17elon is his best friend and all he's looking at is his value his shares in tesla and he just can't
19:24believe it right what has happened to his shares in tesla because of course they went through the roof
19:28you see and um yeah so elon pushed tesla up to like a trillion rands dollars rather yeah and um
19:36you know so that that's that story so that's how he got into it but he started off they started off
19:41um in the beginning elon and kimball in 1995 when they had this little office that they had they said
19:47they want to start a dot-com company and they started with the first thing they started was was a city
19:52search uh program where you could like find your way now american cities are like all like london
19:58squared so i mean you can't find anything unless you have a lot of information because although
20:04there's a grid system it's you know there's like hundreds of streets in the grid system so to find a
20:10place is very difficult so elon came up with the elon kimball came up with the idea of a city search
20:16only to find out that there were many people who were doing city search and so that immediately
20:23they realized wait a minute i think city search was somebody else's scheme the name and they realized
20:29well that's not going to work and that's when elon had this sort of epiphany and decided that the
20:34newspapers are going to have to go onto the internet and i must say that if you want to give elon credit
20:39for anything i would say you have to give him credit for that because in 1995 anyone who sort of
20:48approached let's say the newspapers here and said look you're going to have to go on the internet i
20:53mean they would have laughed at you you know i mean i remember as a matter of fact later much late in
21:00about 2006 as i've always had rolls royces i happen to like rolls royces but i've always had older ones
21:07anyway but anyway i've had them and i i got hold of rolls royce and i said to them in about 2006
21:12you know uh you're going to have to have an electric rolls royce and rolls which is highly suited to an
21:18electric to being an electric car of course they just ignored me and they said thanks for your advice
21:23but no thanks and um and they were very nice gentlemen but but they they they said no thanks of
21:29course now they're looking to try and build an electric car right rolls royce a little bit late but
21:34anyway they're trying to do it but at any rate so so yeah so elon had this this foresight
21:42to realize that everything is going to be online and you know things are so online now that if you
21:49went to buy a newspaper where either it's about three pages it's about four pages i don't know what's
21:54in it i don't know what's it well they've just stopped doing the uh the evening standard over
22:00here apart from sort of once a week something in it i well i think this is as you say online is the
22:05new front line isn't it they're working on that sort of basis uh which is if you want to know anything
22:09you go straight online yeah you know truly i i i think that that that's that's the interesting
22:16thing about all of this it's just the way that things evolve but also understanding that that's the
22:21pattern if you like because working on that sort of basis i never thought of that well and of course
22:26right now there's somebody who must be thinking of the future as well yes right i mean i never had
22:31any idea thought of self-driving motor cars i never heard to self-driving motor car what's that and
22:38suddenly you don't have this idea we're going to have cars that drive by themselves this was years ago
22:43uh 2012 and you know the funny thing is you know and i i arrived in uh uh uh denver in nine in 2016
22:54right and uh it was actually 2015 end of 2015 starting 2016 and i was picked up the airport
23:01my one daughter came with me from south africa and the other daughter was with my son kimball who picked
23:06us up there in a new tesla sort of sports car sporting version of the model s and um we got into
23:12this car it was as i say december 2015 and kimball said to me dad look at this i was sitting next to
23:18kimball in the front seat and and without holding the steering wheel but his hands under the steering
23:24wheel cupped under the steering wheel the car withdrew itself from the parking in the parking lot of the
23:29denver's airport drove to the all by herself to the exit chose the correct exit he then exited the
23:39airport and it drove us to a special road that had been put in where you could at that time travel
23:45foster you could the limit speed them to 75 you paid for that road like a toll road but you could you
23:51don't have to be 60 miles right here 75 right and at that time and the car took us onto that road
23:56and only warned us towards boulder which was the city we were heading for 45 miles away that uh there are
24:05road works ahead please take over and uh the car then he took over then after the road works the
24:12car resumed control and took us all the way back to his home in boulder drove us into uh not into a
24:19garage but into a parking space at his house and uh and he said that's our self-driving and that was
24:25how long ago i said that's eight years ago yes no he said we're still testing it so that's why his
24:31hands were cupped under the steering wheel all the time but we're still testing it so at the moment i
24:37think the problem is getting um you know um approval for these sort of things and of course um there
24:44have been there has been a lot of uh a lot of cars being used on autopilot and accidents have occurred
24:51because people reading books and things like that and it says like you know in any thing like that
24:56with an aircraft would you have an autopilot or something says doesn't mean you can go and have
24:59a cup of coffee when you're flying an aircraft that's on autopilot it means you have to sit and
25:02watch the autopilot you know and uh at the same in the same way when they sold these cars they said you
25:08can go on automatic or auto drive but you have to say alert and some people unfortunately didn't do that
25:14but um there are a lot of people using that facility uh we have cars in america that have
25:20with the auto facility um we generally don't use it because most of the time we like driving so
25:25um but that's the thing isn't it it's sort of leisure activity as well i know you you and i we
25:30like our cars and uh and i think the old classic ones uh um you don't want to get rid of those because
25:35it's a it's a leisure activity in addition it's your mind it's a it's actually a restorative
25:41sort of thing to do i mean i i i remember my dad i think would have said to me if i was in a state of
25:48or something i think he said go for it or my mum go for a drive right i said what do you mean where
25:52am i supposed to drive you just go for a drive yeah and you know you'd go for a drive somewhere
25:57and uh you'd come back it'd feel all right you'd be back on back in uh back in form you know sort
26:03of thing i think that's true no i i think you're right they're probably also going to have to change
26:07the driving tests aren't they when you start getting these automated cars because it's it's a
26:11different skill if you like is you let them take over but you've got to stay alert just in case
26:15you know it's always got to be a human override just well you know i have a i had i sold it i had
26:21a mercedes c uh v12 and uh it's the v12 mercedes has got a self-driving facility where it will uh
26:30won't steer for you but it will stop you in traffic it will control your movement in traffic you don't
26:36have to touch the accelerator and um i use that quite a lot but i did on occasion uh discover that
26:44when i was coming up to a point where the auto drive or whatever it's called was meant to stop me
26:50it had not it switched off right and luckily i was able to stop so if i hadn't done that i would
26:59have gone straight into everybody because it stopped and went on according to the traffic and um you have
27:06the same thing in aircraft uh aircraft i've had many aircraft and so you know most of them have
27:12nearly all of them have an autopilot these days so you get different kinds of autopilots you know
27:17two axis three axis you know and all that sort of stuff but you have to keep an eye on it because
27:21you can it's just the sort of thing that happens is that the moment you decide i'll bend down and
27:27see what's under my seat in the aircraft you know look for my lost pen or something like that
27:32that's the very moment that the autopilot will say hey i think i'll stop working yeah and then when
27:38you look up again you're upside down yes you know or rather nearly upside down that's happened that's
27:42happened to me and that's the problem isn't it because when you're introducing any new technology
27:47it's all about getting trust and i always say look trust comes in on foot but leaves on horseback and
27:52you hear about these accidents and it sort of puts people off to start with so it's that sort of test
27:57isn't it make sure that you get that comfort make sure that people get trained accordingly i mean
28:01you you went on some of the uh you went to see the first ever spacex for example uh and we talked
28:07about so you've got astronauts you've got various uh members of the public are now going for the first
28:11ever spacewalk is that something you would do is that something you would trust oh look i mean
28:16spacex is is the best i mean the the quality and standards uh that spacex have have is i don't know
28:27for from an engineering point of view and from a you know sort of technical perfection point of view
28:32you just can't you just can't believe and the reason is that the boys and girls that are in there
28:39and they are boys and girls are so dedicated are so they're the i mean they're all they're not all
28:46tech uh math fundies some of them are are sort of human relation time you know whatever but they're
28:53also totally dedicated to the uh to to spacex and they they brought their brilliance together and
29:04you know it's got to be an exercise in probably one of the most one of the best companies the most
29:10perfect companies that have ever been created mainly also because what they're doing doesn't
29:17allow you you don't get second chances right you know it's not like you can have another go let's
29:21try okay it didn't work let's try again it doesn't work you only get one chance and uh so what they've
29:27achieved is is marvelous i mean absolutely marvelous they've done in in a very short time you take the
29:33sports spacewalk for example that was something that the russians and the and the uh americans and i
29:39imagine maybe i don't think the european community but anyway spent years trying to achieve a spacewalk
29:46and spacex does it uh you know just like that and and um and with people who haven't spent years and
29:54years flying jet aircraft or anything like that but in fact have been behind a desk most of their lives
29:59and that's the way it should be you should be able to do that and um that's otherwise what's the point
30:05and uh yeah so that the the next thing is of course getting um the the starship up and and running
30:13and um it's hard it's a very hard thing elon is you know people will ask me is elon happy and i mean
30:19of course he's happy you know in a way but i mean he would like to be really is now with spacex maybe
30:24five years ago or six years ago um i think he's fairly happy with tesla i'd like i think he'd like
30:31uh the auto self-driving to take off by now but generally i'd say spacex is the thing that he
30:37would have liked to have seen uh because you see he we we tend to measure things in terms of our own
30:44lives i mean a lifespan is is like supposedly three score and 10 so i mean you know he's 53 now so
30:52and he's got to uh do that uh what he has in mind you know before his time is uh is up and uh and
31:00that's a problem you know if he had another 100 years well he could sort of sit back and take his
31:05time but unfortunately he can't so you know you want to you want to get on with it so that it can
31:11happen in his lifetime let's put it like that you know it is phenomenal the the seismic changes that
31:17have happened in in our lifetime just in the last few years and and elon has been right at the
31:22forefront and center of that um what he's also been at the forefront and center is uh getting involved
31:27with politics and we looked at that sort of side and uh as well as the various run-ins with people
31:32because his glorious sense of humor um doesn't necessarily match everybody else's sense of humor
31:37uh sometimes it does get him into trouble um we're going to take a quick break when we come back we're
31:42going to be looking at some of the stories that are hitting the headlines and putting those into
31:46perspective and getting the truth uh don't touch that dial
31:49you
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