This week on RealTrending, Tracey Velt chats with OB Jacobi, co-president of Windermere Real Estate. Founded in 1972 by OB’s father, John Jacobi, Windermere is still being led by the Jacobi family over 50 years later.
OB joins us today to talk about rethinking the role of the MLS in real estate and how NAR’s Clear Cooperation Policy add-ons have impacted the industry as of late. He also has some really insightful thoughts on the strategic shifts that real estate leaders need to make in a post-settlement world, from making technology-led decisions to not underestimating local market influence.
Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:
Clear Cooperation has significant implications for market transparency.
Local market knowledge is crucial for effective real estate governance.
AI has the potential to revolutionize many day-to-day real estate operations.
Family businesses can provide unique advantages in leadership.
The role of MLS should be re-evaluated for better local governance.
There is room for both national and independent brokerages in the market.
Related to this episode:
OB Jacobi | LinkedIn
https://www.linkedin.com/in/ob-jacobi-4278357b
Windermere Real Estate
https://www.windermere.com/
Enjoy the episode!
The RealTrending podcast features conversations with the brightest minds in real estate. Every Monday, brokerage leaders, top agents, team leaders, and industry experts join us to share their secrets to success, trends, and the lessons they’ve learned. Hosted by Tracey Velt and produced by the HousingWire Content Studio.
OB joins us today to talk about rethinking the role of the MLS in real estate and how NAR’s Clear Cooperation Policy add-ons have impacted the industry as of late. He also has some really insightful thoughts on the strategic shifts that real estate leaders need to make in a post-settlement world, from making technology-led decisions to not underestimating local market influence.
Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:
Clear Cooperation has significant implications for market transparency.
Local market knowledge is crucial for effective real estate governance.
AI has the potential to revolutionize many day-to-day real estate operations.
Family businesses can provide unique advantages in leadership.
The role of MLS should be re-evaluated for better local governance.
There is room for both national and independent brokerages in the market.
Related to this episode:
OB Jacobi | LinkedIn
https://www.linkedin.com/in/ob-jacobi-4278357b
Windermere Real Estate
https://www.windermere.com/
Enjoy the episode!
The RealTrending podcast features conversations with the brightest minds in real estate. Every Monday, brokerage leaders, top agents, team leaders, and industry experts join us to share their secrets to success, trends, and the lessons they’ve learned. Hosted by Tracey Velt and produced by the HousingWire Content Studio.
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NewsTranscript
00:00How should we be thinking about MLS's post-settlement?
00:04What is the controversy surrounding clear cooperation and the delayed marketing policy that they just came out with?
00:11Well, I'm here with O.B. Jacoby.
00:14He is the president of Windermere Real Estate based in Seattle,
00:17and we talk all things real estate, leadership, and clear cooperation.
00:23So enjoy the podcast.
00:25O.B., welcome to The Real Trending Podcast.
00:28Thanks. Thanks for having me.
00:29Yeah, it's been a couple of years since we've talked, so I'm glad we connected,
00:34and we got a lot to talk about today.
00:39There's always a lot.
00:41Oh, I know.
00:42I'm going to really start with a question about kind of a leadership challenge.
00:46Since so much has happened over the past couple of years,
00:49what has been your biggest leadership challenge in the past year, and how did you handle it?
00:54You know, the thing I love the most about this industry is also probably the hardest thing for a leader,
01:00which is it's constantly changing and evolving.
01:02And so, you know, over the last shoot since the pandemic, you know, who was ready for that?
01:10How did you adapt?
01:11How did you lead through that change?
01:13And then as the market softened, what are you telling your people?
01:17How are you coaching them?
01:18How are you reacting?
01:19And then, you know, national lawsuit, what is your strategy?
01:24What, you know, looking backwards, how could you have been better?
01:27Looking forwards, how can you be better?
01:30And what is your strategy going forward?
01:33And then, you know, current threats and market conditions, competition,
01:40things that people want to do in the market and move the market in ways that you don't believe in is all hard.
01:46So, I think the thing, I'm lucky, I'm in a family business.
01:50I run the business with my siblings and my brother-in-law.
01:54We get the benefit.
01:55This is a really lonely business.
01:58You know, we, as agents, you're an entrepreneur within a firm,
02:02or you might be an entrepreneur running your own business as a leader.
02:06And it's very lonely.
02:07Who do you talk to?
02:08How do you strategize?
02:09What do you come up with?
02:10And it takes a village as leadership to really find your center and find the right direction at the right time.
02:20And so, I'm lucky.
02:21I get to sit back and have conversations with family, with people around us in our core leadership team,
02:29and discuss what is core to us as leaders and how do we move forward.
02:33And that really has been our guiding light kind of through all of these things.
02:38And so, I think the hardest thing is not jumping into the fray and just speaking your piece immediately and being reactionary.
02:50It's really taking the time to think about how to move forward and then doing it in the right way for our people.
02:56They see so much change on the ground level combat that how can we soften that and make it better for them?
03:04Yeah, I mean, it's a huge challenge in general just to kind of educate agents, especially when things are like going wonky from all different directions.
03:16So, super hard.
03:18I mean, and one thing that you have spoken out about recently is clear cooperation.
03:23I know you're part of the broker-owned Northwest MLS, which, of course, has been in the news a lot lately.
03:28So, why does this issue, and really it's about the delayed marketing and the private listings, but how does this issue, or why does it matter so much to you as a brokerage leader?
03:43Yeah, you know, you kind of got to go back in time and look at the history of real estate to be able to answer that question effectively.
03:49You know, I got my license in 1989, back when there were still MLS books.
03:56People had to call offices and find out about listings, and it was a very, very interesting market, if not fragmented, right?
04:05You had to have your agent.
04:06A lot of people went into the office to find their agents.
04:09That's why we have so much space.
04:11But anyway, different conversation.
04:13But, you know, it was very fragmented, and as the Internet came along, we had a guy in our company, his name was Brian Allen, who developed our website, was really one of the guys that pioneered the term and the idea behind IDX, sharing of addresses, sharing of properties, giving attribution to other companies for those listings.
04:35And as time went on, I actually sat on the board of Northwest MLS.
04:41This was probably, I don't know, 2015-ish, I'd say.
04:46And there was a rule where you had three days to input a listing into the Northwest MLS.
04:52And companies use that as their hot sheet, you know, internal marketing and things like that.
04:58And we had a vote at the MLS to change that to a 24-hour rule.
05:03This is prior to clear cooperation.
05:05Because we believe that was really what's best for the sellers and the buyers, to see the full complement of listings available, was by publishing that to an open market.
05:16So we did that at the Northwest MLS prior to clear cooperation coming around in 2021.
05:23So when they came out with clear cooperation but included office exclusives, it's just like, oh, you guys, you had it so close to right.
05:32And, you know, it's hard for a franchise company as a franchisor to set the rules for every local, local market that has customary ways to do things is really difficult.
05:42We can tell you our opinions, we can have our values, we can try and push those, but what's customary in markets is really local.
05:50And so as clear cooperation continued through this last thing in March that now allows people to really, really silo the markets, you know, it's just a terrible idea.
06:02You know, let's fast forward this five years, okay?
06:06Windermere, Howard Hanna, REMAX, Keller, EXP, Compass, Realogy, or pardon me, I said anywhere.
06:13You know, all the big guys, they all have their own listings siloed.
06:16Tell me, is that good for a seller?
06:18I mean, we're saying this is seller choice, so is that good for a seller?
06:22No.
06:22Is it good for a buyer?
06:23I got to go to all these different sites, you know, let alone fair housing and all of the other things.
06:28You know, what I'd like to say is, hey, seller, chances are pretty high you're a buyer too.
06:35How do you derive value?
06:37How do you understand value?
06:38And most sellers know what their house is worth.
06:41How do they know that?
06:42Well, they go to the open fair market and they do their own education.
06:46Silo it and see how that works.
06:47And then when they become a buyer, go see how it works and they'll find a house.
06:52This is terrible.
06:53So the siloed aspect of, you know, private listing networks is bad enough, but hiding behind the company, hey, listen, let's go, let's do this.
07:03Abolish dual agency and see how much people want to do private listing networks.
07:09Are they going to say it's good for a seller at that point?
07:12No, they would never say that.
07:14So really?
07:15Yeah, I'm actually in a transaction brokerage stage.
07:20So we, we, you can be a dual.
07:22Actually, I don't even know if you can be, you could be a single agent, but you, you know, but we don't have dual agency.
07:28So.
07:29Right.
07:29But you can recuse yourself probably.
07:31You can, you can represent both.
07:33So is that good for a seller?
07:34Or is that good for a buyer when you don't represent anyone?
07:36Now, hey, listen, certain instances, I want to buy my neighbor's house.
07:40I want to buy, you know, of course, that's totally, it happens in our world.
07:44But 90% of the stuff is not that people want representation.
07:49Yeah.
07:49Well, it's a big transaction.
07:51Of course they do.
07:52I mean, you're not making it every day.
07:54Even investors who, you know, who are buying properties more frequently still use real estate agents.
08:03They, they still, you know, don't rely on themselves just to get the transaction done.
08:08So.
08:08Yeah.
08:09Yeah.
08:09Yeah.
08:10So when we think about the MLS post settlement, you know, how should the industry be kind of rethinking the role of the MLS or should they be rethinking it?
08:21Well, oh man, that's a really loaded question for me.
08:27You know, when, when, when 99, 98% of all MLSs are run by associations that govern by one entity in, in Washington, you know, over in Washington, I, I don't like it.
08:41I just, I think local customs and local brokers know better what a national organization is trying to push.
08:48That's my take.
08:49I think broker owned, whether it's 50, 50 between the broker owned community and the association, I don't know what the right answer is.
08:57What I do know is that Northwest MLS has been a leader in the MLS industry for a very long time.
09:03People have looked to Northwest MLS as a guiding light, if you will.
09:07And in 2019, when we saw these lawsuits start, we're like, oh shoot, we're doing it wrong.
09:12Let's change our rules.
09:13So Northwest MLS was never part of the national lawsuit.
09:16Well, why is that?
09:17Because brokers can adapt to the right market conditions faster than somebody making national choices at the local level.
09:25So in my opinion, having number one, 512, I don't know what the number is today.
09:30That's too many.
09:32And if that's just too many fiefdoms of people that are trying to hold on to their thing, I think there should be less MLSs.
09:40I think there should be a consolidation.
09:41I think it should be some percentage of ownership from the brokerage community in totality.
09:47I think the governing of those entities is better that way.
09:51I think MLSs that really set the rules and follow the rules that brokers help set in the local areas is a really good idea.
10:01It's just off the top.
10:04Yeah.
10:05Yeah.
10:05I mean, I have been in this industry since 89 as well.
10:11Of course I know.
10:11So, yeah.
10:12And I mean, MLS consolidation has been discussed since the 90s, at least.
10:20You know, I remember when Zillow came onto the scene, that's when they really started ramping up the MLS consolidation talks.
10:29And it's happened a little.
10:31I mean, you know, it's happened.
10:33I think we were like 950 back then, though.
10:36Yeah.
10:36So, you know, we're almost half.
10:38Yeah.
10:38It's slow.
10:40But, yeah.
10:40So it's interesting, you know, to see if that does ramp up again now with everything going on.
10:48I want to talk, you mentioned at the beginning how, you know, you don't like to just react to things as a leader, that there's a thoughtful process behind it.
11:00So what separates kind of strong brokerage leadership from reactive leadership in today's market?
11:07Well, I think there's a bunch of things.
11:10One, I think it's having clear values and sticking with your values.
11:14It's very easy to be swayed one side or the other.
11:17This issue specifically around private listing networks and office exclusives is very, very easy to say, oh, that could benefit us.
11:26It could benefit me with 30% market share in Seattle.
11:30Like I could easily be the beneficiary of something like that.
11:34So having very clear values and sticking to it is, you know, leadership number one, I think.
11:41And I think people, what we've found as a company is that people that are attracted to Windermere and know and like our values are standing behind us in what we're saying, which is really neat to see.
11:55Like, okay, we're on the right path.
11:57We're sticking true to what we believe.
11:58So that's good to see.
12:02I think there is a balance between over-communication and under-communication and fighting wars.
12:10You know, what we've seen locally in Seattle is we were called out by Compass as part of the Northwest MLS and controlling the board and all this malarkey.
12:20And we could easily have gotten into, you know, Instagram fights and social media fights with companies on our belief systems and all the rest.
12:31But what we found is that the Compass people believe in what Compass is doing.
12:36Okay, that's your belief system.
12:38I get it.
12:39The Windermere people believe in the Windermere stuff.
12:42And what's happening is it's almost like a political or religious war out there.
12:47Agents are after each other.
12:49And that's never been a thing.
12:51In my time in real estate, it's very collegial and we've all gotten along and we're all on both sides of the transactions.
12:58And so this is hard for people on the streets doing everyday real estate, you know, conducting everyday real estate.
13:06And so as a leader, we've got to be really careful to not do the harm to them so they can't do their jobs for their customers.
13:15You know, it's very easy to jump into this fray and they're the ones that have to pay the price, really.
13:22So I think as a leader, you've got to be, you know, the over-communication or under and then picking the right fight as to make sure that your voice is heard at the right time with the right message.
13:36And then, you know, that's OK.
13:39We don't have to pound at home all the time.
13:42Yeah.
13:42I mean, you know, we used to be just sports rivalries.
13:45Right.
13:46And now it's turned into political rivalries and real estate rivalries and company rivalries and to the next level almost.
13:54So it is it is interesting how that has transformed over the years, for sure.
14:02Totally.
14:03Yeah.
14:04I mean, what is interesting, too, is I don't think people really realize to market share as far as national market share, which would be.
14:14I mean, I think that we at one point had like the top 100 companies had maybe 12 percent of the market share, I think, something like that.
14:26I can't remember the exact numbers.
14:28I don't know what it is this year.
14:29We haven't figured it out yet.
14:30But but, you know, I think they're thinking some of these national companies have, you know, 50 percent market share or something.
14:38Right.
14:39You know, so.
14:40I mean, that's that's the joy of our business.
14:42You know, we have so many independents and so many people doing real estate different ways.
14:47It makes all of us better.
14:48You know, I've said it before.
14:49I love competition.
14:51I love it.
14:51And, you know, with a company comes in with better marketing, I got my marketing like that's really good for the consumers and really good for the agent population.
15:01So I'm going to put you on the spot here and ask you, what do you think the national brands get wrong about local market power?
15:12You know, I don't think it's really putting us on the spot.
15:15And I said it's probably the same answer that I said about National Association of Realtors.
15:19It's really hard to govern from afar.
15:21And I'm being completely transparent.
15:23It's hard for us as a franchise or a company operating out of Seattle to say our customs are the same in Utah or the same in Portland or the same in Montana.
15:32They're not.
15:34They're just not.
15:35And so I think that's kind of the point is that we have an incredible amount of people in our industry and at Windermere that volunteer their time for board seats, for MLS seats, for all the things that govern our industry.
15:50That stuff is done way better at the local level.
15:54It just is.
15:55Again, we can we can share our values.
15:58We can attract people that believe in our values and hopefully they sit on boards and do things that try and make change where change is needed.
16:06If that's the thing, if they get voted down in boards, that's OK, too.
16:10At least we're trying in a way that's more democratic than, you know, we're going to do it this way.
16:17I just don't think that works.
16:19Yeah, yeah, definitely.
16:20I mean, real estate has always been hyper local anyway, you know, so decisions made on a national level sometimes won't fit certain areas.
16:30It just depends.
16:32I mean, and honestly, the private listings with luxury properties, you know, there are instances where I guess it could be necessary, but those are few and far between, I think.
16:47Well, I wouldn't, you know, in almost every MLS and I'm making a generalized statement.
16:54I know that in Northwest MLS and I know that in our MLS and I know that in many of our MLSs, there are options for sellers to say, I don't want my house.
17:04I don't want a sign.
17:05I don't want an address.
17:06I don't want it has to be shown by my agent.
17:08I don't want any of it.
17:09So really, you get down to the brass tacks and that all we're talking about is days on market.
17:15That's the thing.
17:16So I talked about dual agency.
17:18If private listing networks aren't about that, then abolish dual agency.
17:23But really, we're talking about days on market.
17:25So go to the MLSs and have that changed if that's what you're talking about.
17:29But saying that my house should test the market to me means that agent doesn't know how to price the house.
17:36I mean, come on.
17:37You know, there was an instance on LinkedIn today that somebody just a seller just posted where they were on a private network and they had their buyer fell out.
17:46So they went to the market and got 500,000 or pardon me, 100,000 more than that buyer offered on the private network.
17:52So is an open market better?
17:55Yeah, I would say it is.
17:57Are there times when people need privacy and the things that, you know, somebody might need?
18:02Of course there are.
18:03And again, I want to state there are times where people sell off market.
18:08That's a common thing in the market.
18:09That's not, but that's not privately withholding listings from the market.
18:15Correct.
18:16Yeah.
18:17I'm going to switch gears to tech.
18:18I know you have a heavy background in tech and there's so much noise today around like AI and tech.
18:26And, you know, where are you seeing some meaningful innovation for brokerages in the AI space right now?
18:34You know, in full transparency, I don't think I've seen it.
18:40I think I've seen, you know, write my listing and, you know, improve my marketing and things like that.
18:46I was talking to one of our agents down in Sacramento.
18:49He's new to a geographic farm area.
18:53And so he's been, this sounds funny, he's been talking to ChatGBT a lot about how does he increase his marketing?
18:59What does he do?
19:00He's using it in a really interesting way, different than what I think the industry is looking, is doing.
19:07So I was really, I was like, oh, that's really cool.
19:11I was sitting at a dinner with a woman who runs an event company.
19:16And we're talking about AI and what's the future and all the rest.
19:19She goes, watch this.
19:20And she pulls up an AI app and she talks into the AI app for about five minutes,
19:25telling it to create an app for searchable homes on real estate.
19:30And she just kept talking and she looked at it and it had created an SOW, a statement of work, for that app.
19:37She copied and pasted it to ChatGBT and said, code this app.
19:41And it happened in 10 minutes time.
19:44Now, that isn't the perfect app and that isn't the perfect SOW.
19:47But the reality of it is, oh, my gosh, look at what's coming in the realm of development, you know, and you go across the board in our industries.
19:56What are the things that we do that takes human time that we shouldn't be doing?
20:02You know, there's a lot.
20:03And so I think AI hasn't even scratched the surface in our industry of what it will do.
20:10And I think it's coming.
20:12I just don't know how many companies are spending a ton of money on it yet.
20:16Are you?
20:17Especially in the down market.
20:19Yeah.
20:19Are you looking at that?
20:20Are you looking for some innovation that way?
20:22We are.
20:24We're talking to independent sources outside of the industry to try and identify places where we are spending a lot of time, where we shouldn't be, you know, reporting, you know, contract reviews, things like that, that we think we could streamline a lot better.
20:42That kind of thing.
20:43So we're kind of analyzing all aspects of our business and what could make it better.
20:47So I know you didn't start Windermere, but it's family owned.
20:52And if you had to do it from scratch today, what would you do differently and what would you do the same?
21:01It's a good question.
21:02I think the things that were different when real estate started, you know, we kind of talked about it a little bit when we started, which was the real estate office was kind of the center of the social network of a neighborhood.
21:16You know, people went to it to find all housing, no matter what.
21:20They had social events, you know, as a much as very social industry in general anyway.
21:25And so the real estate office was kind of a hub.
21:28Everybody came to work, you know, whether it was back in the Glen Gary, Glen Ross days and metal chairs and smoking cigarettes or, you know, what it's evolved into.
21:38I think the reality, and we've said this for decades now, is that space, especially after COVID, you know, space is we all just have too much space.
21:48And so if I were going to do it a little bit differently in today's world, I'd have a little more of a hub and spoke model, a big office with small satellites around.
21:57There's 19 offices in the city of Seattle.
22:00And if I had to add up the amount of square footage in those offices, it'd be staggering.
22:04So I think that kind of stuff, I think I'd do differently.
22:09The things that we've gotten very right, I think, you know, my dad had a saying, hire the best people, give them the best tools and get out of their way.
22:17And that saying was because they were entrepreneurial in spirit and entrepreneurs like to take what you got and use it to the best of their benefit.
22:24I think that model has changed a little bit, hire the best people, give them the best tools.
22:29We still have to coach and help and do and all those things.
22:34But I think our connection to our community, our connection to our agents, our foundation, our culture, all the things that really hold the company together, I think we've done very right.
22:49And I think that's transferred.
22:50We've got Windermere and, you know, we have we have 320 ish offices across 10 states.
22:59And in that, there's about 180 owners of those 180.
23:04I think 90 of them are second generation owners that are now bringing their kids up in the business.
23:10And so that's a really cool.
23:11We're just not a family company.
23:13They're families of families that own franchises that are still coming up.
23:17So we've had these really, really long relationships with people that hold us together.
23:23And I think that's a really neat thing about real estate.
23:26Yeah, I love that.
23:28Yeah.
23:28Yeah, that's that's wonderful.
23:30So what would you give what advice would you give brokerage leaders who are trying to stand their ground or grow amid a lot of like the new single entity brokerages, national brokerages that are growing so quickly and especially in the rankings?
23:47That's a good question.
23:51So here's, you know, what I've seen over decades in this business is there's plenty of room for everybody.
23:59You know, there's a lot of independence in our real estate space.
24:04And so as an independent, if I was an independent office owner of one office and I'm growing it, I think the whole key is staying true to your values and recruiting the people that are going to hold true to your values and really hold tight to those folks and make sure that you are all kind of working together and grow that.
24:23Because there's there's lots and lots of room.
24:26National Wall Street isn't going to take over the real estate space in totality.
24:31It just won't.
24:32People have too much fear of that corporation in wherever, New York, working in local markets.
24:39It just isn't the right model for local real estate.
24:43And so I think there's lots and lots of room for independence to grow.
24:47I think there's lots of room for regional companies to grow.
24:49So I think it's really finding your right people, what they believe in and holding on to that.
24:56Yeah, I mean, honestly, not everyone wants to start a real estate company that grows as big as, you know, an ESP or Compass who are number one right now in transaction sides and volume on the real trends verified rankings.
25:09But, you know, it's just it is interesting how quickly some of these companies have grown over, you know, just by coming up with not coming up with, but developing like this single entity.
25:23And they're not all low fee.
25:25Some of them are.
25:26But, you know, they're not all.
25:28So it is interesting.
25:29I mean, we obviously we study competition and brands and what they're doing and how they're doing it.
25:34And, you know, the EXP model is super interesting.
25:39Is that a culture you want to be a part of?
25:40If so, then fantastic.
25:42That's what I mean.
25:42Like, if you want to be online and virtual, great.
25:46There's room for everybody.
25:48Yeah, absolutely.
25:50So what keeps you up at night about the industry?
25:54Oh, my God.
25:54What doesn't?
25:55I mean, you know, it's funny.
25:58You have good days.
25:59You have bad days.
26:00You have good weeks.
26:01You have bad weeks.
26:02You have times where you're just, you know, drowning in stuff.
26:07I think the thing I love, I just love about this business is the people part of it.
26:12Every single agent is an entrepreneur in their own business doing things differently.
26:18You know, I could go next door to our Eastlake office here and we have 60 people and I'd find 60 different ways of doing the business.
26:25And so at the very, very, very local level of real estate, combat, hand-to-hand, people are entrepreneurial and doing it.
26:33At the office level, the same thing.
26:35The manager, the broker, the designated broker of those offices are got their own set of stuff.
26:41They're trying to figure out how do I recruit?
26:43How do I keep people in my office?
26:45How do I help them succeed?
26:46How do I coach?
26:47All the things.
26:48How do I work with my staff to offer the best possible product?
26:52And then at the, you know, at the ownership, franchisor level, the same kind of thing.
26:56How do I deal with these national decisions?
26:59How do I deal with lawsuits?
27:00How do I, how do I build an education department that services a bigger total?
27:06I just think the industry is so great and changes every single day.
27:12It's, I just love it.
27:15Have you seen your leadership style evolve over, especially with, you know, the, the lawsuits and, and now with, you know, the DOJ and everything.
27:27Have you seen your leadership style evolve or?
27:31Yeah.
27:32I mean, in different ways.
27:34So, you know, communication after the pandemic is way different than it used to be.
27:38You know, we get to sit on this and do a podcast where in, you know, 19, we probably would have been in person.
27:43So, so communication models have changed and how do you adapt to that?
27:49How do you offer your people the ability to talk amongst each other in the company?
27:53That kind of stuff.
27:55We used to be very quiet on almost all subjects because half our people liked one way and half liked the other way.
28:02Um, I think we still are mostly quiet.
28:07Um, I think when it comes to issues around the industry and things that threaten us or lawsuits or things like that, we, we feel compelled to speak up and, and have our opinion heard.
28:18Um, so I think those things are a little bit, we're a little more apt to share, um, that with the world than we used to be.
28:25Um, but for the most part, you know, as I think, you know, technology's gotten better, we have a better opportunity to connect with our people.
28:36Uh, so that's better.
28:38Um, but other than that, I don't know, you know, again, I think when you have a clear set of values, it's pretty easy to stick to those.
28:45Um, and those become, and again, you know, having multiple people around you to bounce ideas off and go, oh, that's terrible.
28:54That doesn't fit.
28:56Thank you for saying that.
28:57You know, it helps.
29:00Yeah, absolutely.
29:02So my last question is just, um, what's next for your firm?
29:08Uh, it's a good question.
29:09You know, we have rolled out, we, we kind of took a look at our offering as a franchisor.
29:15Um, and we, we, we switched it all up about, uh, 18 ish months ago and offered a whole new suite of products that, um, includes coaching and technology and marketing and education and, and just everything.
29:28And so that was a real shift for us to try and, um, to try and have a full suite of products that people can use.
29:37Uh, for us, we are very, very interested in helping our, um, you know, we're always paying attention to the new people in the industry.
29:46We're always paying attention to the high end of the industry.
29:49And I, and I would suggest that the middle 60 sometimes gets a little bit forgotten.
29:54And so part of our coaching, part of our things that we've tried to launch, um, are really built to help the middle 60, um, uh, be a little bit more successful in their careers or in their lives.
30:07And so for us, um, we're really paying attention to that.
30:11And then secondarily, we're paying attention to smart growth within our footprint.
30:16I, I, we don't have aspirations to be a national firm.
30:19We have aspirations to be more known in California where, you know, we have 40 offices.
30:24We should have 80 offices.
30:26I don't, that's a number I'm just saying, but, uh, I think more density helps markets, uh, understand who women, Windermere is.
30:34Um, we're really strong in Washington and Oregon.
30:37We could be stronger in Idaho.
30:38We could be stronger in Montana.
30:40We can be stronger in California.
30:41So, uh, smart growth in those areas for us, um, is, is smart.
30:46We've, we, um, uh, when we did that suite change, we, um, we retained our ownership.
30:54And we retained some of the technology in MoxieWorks.
30:57As I think you all know, we had a pretty deep relationship there.
31:01Um, but when we redid our suite, we took a look at products outside of MoxieWorks to add into the platform, uh, that we felt, uh, might service our customers, our agents or owners better.
31:13So we're constantly evaluating tech and taking things out of the suite and replacing them.
31:18So I think that's just natural progression of a company.
31:21Yeah, absolutely.
31:22Evolution.
31:23So, yeah.
31:24I, uh, I certainly, um, yeah.
31:28There you go.
31:30Well, Obi, thanks so much for joining the Real Trending podcast.
31:33I really appreciate you getting on.
31:35Yeah.
31:35Good to see you.
31:36Good to see you too.
31:37Good to see you too.