As Cardinal, Francis became 'real leader' in Argentine politics, brought all of society around table

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00:00Joining me now from Buenos Aires is Rabbi Sergio Bergman, who knew the late Pope very well.

00:07Thank you, Rabbi Bergman, for your time.

00:09I imagine this is a sad time for you, but I'd like to ask you, how did you get to know the late Pope?

00:20Pope Francis was first our reference in Buenos Aires, the Archivishop of Buenos Aires,

00:27and we know him like Father Jorge, and became the Cardinal Bergoglio in Buenos Aires.

00:36And after that, we really started to build this amazing bridge that he really led in interfaith dialogue,

00:46and not only about religion, he was really involved in social action,

00:51and he became really a leader in Argentinian politics, in civil politics,

00:57because, as you remember, we have a big crisis in 2001,

01:01and Pope Francis was the one that really brings all the society, religions, parties,

01:08non-profit organizations around a table to build, really, fraternity,

01:13and to try to strengthen the unity of the people of Argentina,

01:18despite that we respect diversity.

01:20He was an amazing leader, not only because he was close to people, warm, and charismatic,

01:27he was so really clever, and so really committed to make changes.

01:33He never had any doubts that he needed to move forward.

01:37It is not only praying, and it's not only talking, it's really doing things,

01:41bringing people to the ground to change things.

01:45And he teaches one, for me, the more important thing about how you connect and you match

01:53and deal between spirituality and politics, the best match, meaning power to serve people

02:01and to change reality, and not to use an abuse of power positions.

02:06Now, you mentioned there you both work very closely on the issue of interfaith in your home country of Argentina.

02:13In fact, you have even gone as far as to refer to Pope Francis as your rabbi.

02:18What did you mean by that?

02:21Because, as you know, rabbis, we are not priests.

02:24Rabbis, we are teachers.

02:26We are masters.

02:26And he really became our, for me, my really inspiration.

02:34He became, for me, our role model.

02:36And he really teach us how really spirituality can become not only an issue of religion,

02:43it is an issue for all humankind.

02:46And as you know, he always open the tent, and he include everyone in the conversations.

02:53He doesn't address only his writings and speeches, only for the Catholic Church.

03:02He was committed to the Catholic Church, but the message was universal and wider.

03:09And for me, for me, was my teacher, was my master, and Hebrew teacher, master in our tradition is rabbi.

03:19And I realized that he was, in politics, in civil and social action, my rabbi.

03:28What is your fondest memory of the late pontiff?

03:35The last meeting that we had last May in Vatican, when he really was in the situation that he doesn't walk.

03:45He was in his time, and he came up and came to me and gave me a warm and big hug.

03:55And I keep this in my heart.

03:58And about what I remember is also when he came to our synagogue in Buenos Aires,

04:04in the high holidays, in the New Year, the New Year of the Jewish tradition,

04:11and he delivered the homiletics, the Dvartorah, to our congregation.

04:16And it was, for me, a turning point when really he realized,

04:21in the same way that Jean-Paul II go through the Trastevere

04:26and came into the synagogue in Rome and said that the Jewish people are our big brothers in the faith.

04:33Pope Francis do exactly the same thing in our city, in our synagogue,

04:38and he will be grateful forever for this.

04:41I understand, however, you did have differences, such as when it came to the issue of Gaza.

04:46Pope Francis calling the remaining Christian church in Gaza every day,

04:50and his last speech on Easter Sunday was calling for an immediate ceasefire to Israel's war in Gaza.

04:56So were the both of you able to find common ground on this issue?

05:02I think that it's part of his really generosity.

05:07He knows that we doesn't really agree, not only in this issue.

05:10We have discussion about the Ukraine war, also about the hostages in Gaza,

05:16and, like you say, the war in Israel,

05:20but it doesn't mean that he closed the door and he doesn't accept you

05:24when you don't really be on the same page with him.

05:27And I believe that this is part of his greater, really, level of a leader.

05:33He welcome you when you maybe doesn't accept his positions.

05:37And also, he said the Pope is not unfathomable, it's not perfect.

05:43He's a human being and has a position, can make mistakes,

05:47and always he recognizes his human dimension.

05:51And I really believe that we don't really need to agree to build a bridge

05:58and to have dialogue and discussion.

06:00This is the way that he created the culture of the encounter, of meetings,

06:05of really building peace, because we are not thinking the same thing.

06:09But we need to really to stress the common ground and to live and coexist with our difference.

06:17You were the Argentinian Environment Minister in the Macri administration.

06:22Do you feel that Pope Francis did as much as he could in addressing the issue of climate change?

06:29No doubt.

06:30He was a fighter about climate change.

06:32And also, he was really clear also when he brought and spread out Laudato Si that he's not talking about a green agenda.

06:41He's not an ecologist guy.

06:43He was really a leader about inclusion, human rights.

06:50And he explained to us, when you are really not taking care about the common house,

06:56he called our planet common house.

06:59This is not an issue about only sustainability.

07:03It's an issue about ethics, human rights, and the poor people, women and childs.

07:10They lose everything when we are not taking care about which kind of economy,

07:15which kind of politics, and which kind of vision of humankind we have when we are doing business

07:22and we are really not taking care about our planet.

07:27How will your home country, Argentina, remember him, since there are some mixed views?

07:34I mean, it is interesting to note that during his papacy, Francis visited seven South American countries,

07:40but never his own.

07:42Why do you think that was the case?

07:43I think that this is a mixed feeling for Argentinian people, you know.

07:48Everyone really loves him and expects his visit.

07:53And I really believe that it's something that everyone really expects.

07:59And there are not clear reasons.

08:01My interpretation, this is not an official position of Pope Francis on Vatican,

08:08is that because now he became a global universal leader,

08:13he never really wanted to be involved in local, low-level politics.

08:18As you know, in Argentina, everyone really tried to bring Pope Francis from his own side.

08:25And he really took care of not to be involved in this local politics.

08:30He is now, and he became in his term, global inspirational leader.

08:39And I suppose that we pay the price.

08:42We offer to the world the most important Argentinian man for the history, I believe.

08:48And he really say, okay, maybe I need to pay the price, you know, to come back to my country

08:53and to keep my status and my global leadership for the Catholic Church and the human beings.

09:00Rabbi Bergman, I want to thank you again for your time.

09:04No, thank you for honoring him.

09:07And we will pray for his soul and for his legacy.

09:10The more important thing is he's not now here with us,

09:13but he teaches us how we need to keep going with his inspiration and direction.

09:20That's Rabbi Sergio Bergman from Argentina, a good friend of the late Pope Francis.

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