Discrimination has many forms, it can be very subtle: Kerala Chief Secretary

India Today

Kerala Chief Secretary Sarda Murlidharan sparked debate on skin colour prejudice with a Facebook post. She discussed living with discrimination, societal beauty standards, and the need to challenge ingrained perceptions.

Transcript

00:00Let's turn to our news maker today.

00:03Kerala's Chief Secretary, Sardar Muralidharan,

00:06has sparked a debate on dark complexion

00:10and how society views it.

00:12What prompted her to write the post was a comment she said

00:15made by someone about her work

00:17who told Muralidharan her stewardship as Chief Secretary

00:21is as black as her husband's was white.

00:24Her husband was the previous Chief Secretary of Kerala.

00:28After making it public, she quickly deleted the post

00:31and then, when she saw the response to it,

00:34brought it back with a longer message

00:36on how she had learned to own her dark skin.

00:40Her comments have sparked a raging debate in Kerala and outside.

00:44Is black beautiful or not?

00:46Or is that simply political wokeism as it's described?

00:50I spoke earlier today to Sardar Muralidharan.

00:54Listen in.

00:59Joining me now is our news maker Sardar Muralidharan

01:03is the Kerala Chief Secretary who sparked off this debate

01:07over colour of the skin about being black

01:11and dare one say beautiful.

01:13Appreciate your joining me Sardar Muralidharan.

01:15I want to ask you this.

01:16What prompted you after all these years

01:19in public life, in public service

01:21to suddenly put down your thoughts about

01:24being a woman and dark

01:26and what it meant to be vilified

01:28because of the colour of your skin?

01:32Well, it was a very interesting comment, like I said.

01:35I mean, it's not often that you hear

01:38your administrative tenure being judged

01:42in terms of colour.

01:43So, it took me aback.

01:48It took my husband aback as well.

01:51You know, what actually is behind the comment of that nature?

01:56Just not the, you know, the person who made the comment

01:59thought he was making a joke.

02:01But for me, it was a conflation of both my skin colour

02:10with a sense of what black connotes for administration.

02:19Which I thought was rather strange.

02:21And I needed to get it out of my system, first of all.

02:26But is this something you've been living with?

02:29Yeah, in all my life.

02:31You say you wanted to get it out of your system

02:34but is this something you've been living with for years?

02:37Being regarded as lesser, as a lesser being

02:44on account of colour

02:46has been something that I have been living since,

02:48almost ever since I remember.

02:55But do you believe it's still a form of discrimination?

02:58For example, in the civil service,

03:00you've ended up being the Chief Secretary of Kerala.

03:02One of the few women Chief Secretaries.

03:04So, does it really lead to any form of discrimination

03:08because of the colour of the skin?

03:10Does it lead to prejudice in your view

03:12as you suggest in your Facebook post?

03:14Or is that much in the past?

03:16No, it's not.

03:18If it were in the past,

03:20then I wouldn't have heard a comment of that nature.

03:25So, discrimination has many forms.

03:27It's not necessarily active and in-your-face discrimination.

03:35It can be very subtle.

03:37It could also be subconscious.

03:39It might be well-intended too.

03:43I've had so many well-intended people tell me,

03:47whatever happened to you?

03:49Have you been out in the sun too much?

03:51You've gone so dark.

03:53And why are you wearing these kind of colours?

03:55They don't suit you.

03:56And these come from well-wishers.

03:58And hearing this on a very regular basis

04:02can be quite demeaning.

04:04Each one of us of colour

04:06and who has some complex or the other

04:09hidden up our sleeve

04:12find ways and means of negotiating that complexity

04:16and coming to terms with people who don't know better.

04:19But sometimes, you know,

04:22like I said,

04:24just something meant to be among friends.

04:27And then I realised that it was going way beyond

04:30my circle of friends,

04:32which is why I deleted it in the first place.

04:37But I brought it back precisely because

04:41I was told that it was important that somebody...

04:45But does it affect work?

04:47Does it affect work?

04:49No, it doesn't affect work.

04:51It doesn't affect my work here.

04:53Mrs. Muditharan, does it affect your work

04:55or your promotions or your sense of

04:58how your colleagues see you?

05:00Do you really believe it affects that?

05:02Or are these subtle perceptions?

05:04No, I wouldn't say that

05:06my skin tone has affected my work,

05:09has affected...

05:11Generally, it has not affected the perception

05:13of what I do.

05:15It was...

05:17But it was a...

05:19I have had, obviously,

05:21comparisons made

05:23and I also had

05:25issues of

05:27skin tone

05:29and beauty and all of that

05:31raised.

05:33But these two coming together

05:35has not been a common occurrence, no.

05:40But, you know, Mrs. Muditharan,

05:44Indian traditional beauty concepts

05:46have often revolved around fairness,

05:48matrimonial ads,

05:50fair and lovely creams,

05:53inventing...

05:55matrimonial ads, inventing phrases like

05:57wheatish complexion.

05:59We can go back even to our mythological epics

06:02where, you know, usually the

06:04villains will be seen as dark-skinned

06:07in some form.

06:09Do you believe, therefore,

06:11that this is something that we have

06:13had to live with because of our

06:15social conditioning?

06:17And therefore, what you are trying to do is

06:20encourage a younger generation to break out of that.

06:23That's precisely the thing.

06:25It's a socio-cultural conditioning.

06:27Very cultural too, you know.

06:29It's been ingrained.

06:31It's been indoctrinated into us.

06:33And it's about breaking that indoctrination.

06:35And how do you break that indoctrination is a question.

06:38So, it really doesn't...

06:40I mean, it's not just about...

06:42I mean, does this very tangibly affect your career?

06:45No, that's not really the question.

06:47The question is, has this been something

06:49that has been interfering with your perception of self?

06:52Has this been something that has been bringing you down?

06:55Have you had to fight it

06:57just in order to be

06:59a normal breathing human being?

07:06You mentioned in your Facebook post

07:09how your children advised you

07:11and helped you bury this ghost.

07:13What exactly did your children tell you,

07:15Mrs. Muralidharan?

07:17Well, you know, in the safety of the home,

07:21you generally wear your insecurities on your sleeve.

07:25And then when your children

07:27take those insecurities on their head

07:30and turn it and try to

07:32get you to see them differently,

07:34it helps.

07:35That's one point of it.

07:37One part of it.

07:38The other part is also

07:40to look at the world through their eyes.

07:43You know, because

07:44whether I like it or not,

07:46I have also, to a large extent,

07:48internalized this narrative.

07:51And, you know,

07:53felt that,

07:55you know, looked and

07:57seen beauty where I see

07:59fairness.

08:02And not notice

08:05the beauty lying in dark places.

08:07So, they have

08:09actually forced me

08:11to see that.

08:12And then I find that

08:13you actually need to go

08:15in search of such beauty.

08:17When somebody,

08:19when a dark model

08:20walks the ramp,

08:21you need to stop and say,

08:23hmm,

08:24look at her.

08:26And what is it that she brings to the table?

08:28How is she different?

08:30And enjoy the fact that

08:35she brings her own

08:37definition of beauty.

08:39And we need to see it

08:41and appreciate it.

08:43So, yeah, that's what they did to me.

08:49How did your husband,

08:51who has also been the former

08:53Chief Secretary of Kerala,

08:55in fact, your predecessor,

08:56and you contrast his fair skin

08:58with yours.

08:59How did he react to you

09:00actually going public with this?

09:02How have your colleagues reacted?

09:04Your juniors or your peers?

09:06Do they feel that this is

09:08a debate worth triggering?

09:10Or are you a bit of a lone ranger

09:12when you went out and

09:14put yourself out there

09:15and spoke about

09:17being dark skin?

09:18Okay, so the

09:20responses have been very interesting.

09:22Mostly, I've had

09:24two sets of responses.

09:25One is that,

09:26why are you allowing a petty

09:28comment get to you?

09:31That's been one series of comments.

09:34Another has been,

09:36you know, we know exactly

09:37what you're talking about

09:38because we've been through this.

09:40And I feel that the first comment

09:42actually comes from a place of

09:44privilege of not having

09:46gone through this.

09:47And the second,

09:48and most everybody who's been

09:50dark skinned

09:51has come out with this.

09:52But not just everybody

09:53who's dark skinned.

09:54I've had people who are

09:56bald and say, you know,

09:57how that's affected

09:59their sense of self.

10:00So it's about

10:02body shaming as well.

10:03It's about

10:05complete narrative of

10:07where you feel inadequate

10:09and how those inadequacies

10:11are thrust upon you

10:13and reinforced

10:14by social conditioning,

10:16by people who are

10:18closest to you and who care for you.

10:20That also is part of the story

10:22because you just can't escape it.

10:24So that's been

10:26something that we've

10:28both talked about.

10:29And, you know, from

10:31what does this have to do

10:33with my husband, Venu?

10:35And how did he see this?

10:37I mean, I didn't ask him

10:39when he posted,

10:40when I put up the first post.

10:42And he also felt that I

10:44really needed to just get it

10:46out of my system.

10:47So it is just a three line thing.

10:49So that is okay.

10:50But later on when I withdrew it,

10:52we had this conversation as to

10:54maybe

10:56I could

10:58turn this around into

11:00something which is positive.

11:02Something which positively

11:04talks about Black

11:06as beautiful,

11:08as claiming

11:10that space.

11:12And by virtue of the fact

11:14that I would do it, there would be

11:16a change.

11:18So when you look at

11:20my colleagues, there have been some

11:22colleagues who have been saying that, okay, you are making

11:24too much of a deal

11:26out of something very small.

11:28And there have been some

11:30who have been saying

11:32but most, and particularly

11:34my female colleagues

11:36have all been saying yes.

11:38I am glad you spoke out.

11:40I am glad you called this out.

11:46Okay, in conclusion

11:48let me ask you,

11:50do you believe anything will change

11:52as a result of people coming out?

11:54You have said at the end, Black is beautiful,

11:56Black is gorgeousness,

11:58that I dig Black.

12:00Do you believe that more and more

12:02people in Malayali society,

12:04in Kerala itself and indeed

12:06across this country

12:08will realize that times have changed

12:10or do you believe you are fighting

12:12a bit of a losing battle

12:14given that these prejudices have existed

12:16for centuries?

12:18The prejudices have existed

12:20but also I find that the counter movements

12:22also exist.

12:24And these are pretty evident now.

12:26You know, if you have got

12:28a dark model walking the ramp,

12:30if you have got

12:32makeup for dark people to

12:34highlight

12:36who you are and the luster of being dark,

12:38then we are talking about

12:40the fact that another discourse is already there.

12:42And let's just,

12:44this might help to speeden

12:46that discourse.

12:52Well, all I can say, Sardar Modi Narayanan,

12:54as someone who has often also been

12:56accused of being a dark-skinned

12:58anchor,

13:00I am more than happy to wear

13:02the color of my skin on my sleeve

13:04and be proud of the way I am

13:06as I am sure you are.

13:08And thank you for speaking out so loudly

13:10and clearly.

13:12And I hope it will make at least

13:14some difference out there.

13:16Thank you. Thank you, S.D. Bye.

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