'No Woman's Land' documents battle for women's rights in Afghanistan

Guardian Nigeria

Watch 'No Woman's Land' documents battle for women's rights in Afghanistan - Guardian Nigeria on Dailymotion

Transcript

00:00Now it's time for Perspective and on the program.

00:02And since the Taliban seized power in August 2021,

00:05women have been banned from large areas of employment.

00:09They're not allowed to travel or use public transport

00:11without a close male relative.

00:13They have to cover their faces

00:14and can be arrested for immorality

00:16if they violate dress codes.

00:18As for the courts,

00:19well, they have handed down punishments of lashings,

00:21typically 39 of them.

00:23Well, that is the latest assessment

00:24from Human Rights Watch.

00:26And it's a situation which has been documented

00:28by my guests today.

00:29Melissa Cornet is a writer and researcher

00:31on gender and conflict.

00:32And Kiana Heary is an Iranian-Canadian photographer.

00:35They're both co-authors of the project,

00:37No Women's Land,

00:39an intimate look at the battle

00:41for women's rights in Afghanistan.

00:42The project's now been awarded, in fact,

00:44with the Carmignac Photojournalist Award

00:46by the Carmignac Foundation.

00:48Thanks for coming in and talking to us.

00:49Congratulations, first of all.

00:51We're gonna start off by looking at some of the pictures.

00:54Gonna start with you, Kiana.

00:55The first one was taken in Kabul in February, in the snow.

00:59Looks like fun, but always a bit of fear behind it.

01:03Yes, so we met this group of teenagers

01:06who they couldn't go on the street to play snowballs.

01:09So they actually traveled to a different neighborhood

01:11and went to the back alleys to be able

01:13to have a moment of joy.

01:15And it was very short-lived.

01:16I mean, the whole thing was about half an hour

01:18before they had to get back in this car

01:20and leave before they get spotted by the Taliban.

01:23I mean, you can see, it looks like a lot of fun,

01:25but fear really behind it, would you say?

01:27Yeah, and the beautiful thing about it is,

01:29this is something that Melissa and I constantly look into,

01:32is at the time when the spaces is getting tightened

01:35and tightened, and there's very little how women

01:38and young women use joy as a form of resistance.

01:41I mean, resistance is very,

01:44it depends on the environment that you come from.

01:46And for Afghan women, for many of them,

01:48existing or having a moment of joy

01:50or finding little ways to express themselves

01:53is a way of resistance.

01:54Let's talk about another one.

01:56This one's showing resistance as well.

01:58Some women at a party,

01:59a private party in their home, obviously.

02:02Yes, this is a birthday party,

02:04and we're very, very lucky to build the trust

02:07and get access to these very, very intimate environments.

02:11Women are banned from, I mean,

02:13music is banned across Afghanistan.

02:15So, and these are like those quiet moments

02:18where women are able to practice what they want to do.

02:21Beautiful picture.

02:22We'll keep showing some of those pictures

02:23as we continue to talk.

02:25Melissa, tell us what you saw

02:26and what you experienced being in Afghanistan

02:29and what you thought of the conditions

02:31that women were being forced to live in.

02:33So, over the course of 10 weeks,

02:36we traveled to seven different provinces in Afghanistan.

02:39We interviewed more than 100 women and girls,

02:41and we really wanted to try to show the realities

02:44and nuances of their experiences.

02:48Showing, trying to go a little bit beyond the narrative

02:50or, you know, they are victims of the Taliban,

02:53the situation is dramatic,

02:55but we wanted to show how they manage, like Jana said,

02:58to still carve small spaces of joy and resistance,

03:02whether it's having a birthday party,

03:05whether it's playing music,

03:06whether it's continuing to work,

03:07despite the fact that it's extremely complicated

03:09for them today.

03:10But what was most notable for us

03:13over the six months in which this work took place

03:16is really how we saw in front of our eyes

03:19how all of the women we worked with

03:20lost hope that their condition could improve.

03:23Most of them, all of them right now

03:25are trying to find a way to leave the country

03:27because they understood that they no longer have a future,

03:29and their daughters especially

03:30do not have a future anymore in a country

03:32when they cannot go to school,

03:34past grade six when they cannot go to university,

03:36and they cannot work in most fields.

03:38And a difficult situation for men as well,

03:40presumably, put in the situation,

03:43you know, where their wives, their girlfriends,

03:45their daughters can't do what they want to do.

03:48Exactly, and what we've seen

03:50is that a lot of the control of the women and girls

03:52in Afghanistan actually happens

03:54mainly from the men of the family,

03:56and not because they are necessarily very conservative,

03:59but because they are worried

04:00for their wives and their daughters.

04:02So there's one out of concern

04:03who are going to usually put the first restriction

04:07on them leaving the house

04:08because they're just afraid of them being arrested,

04:11detained, and beaten.

04:12Tell us a bit between the two of you

04:13about how you're able to do this project.

04:16I mean, was it difficult to be able to travel freely

04:19and take pictures wherever you wanted?

04:21It was very complicated,

04:23and access really shrunk as well in front of our eyes.

04:26I don't think today we would be able

04:27to do the same reportage in Afghanistan.

04:30Kenna has been working in Afghanistan for almost 10 years.

04:33I've been working in Afghanistan for almost seven years.

04:35So we were able to really rely on our networks

04:39and our knowledge of the country

04:41to be able to use this access.

04:42A lot of the women we worked with,

04:44we've known them for years.

04:47So that really helped us.

04:49It was really complicated.

04:50And as you'll see,

04:51there's barely any photos of women in the public space

04:54because it's just incredibly difficult

04:57to take photos outside right now.

04:59So most of the work we've been doing

05:01has had to happen behind closed doors inside the homes,

05:04which right now is the only space left for women.

05:07Presumably very difficult for some of the women,

05:10particularly as time goes on,

05:12to take part and to help and to talk to you as well.

05:14Absolutely.

05:16The safety of women that we spoke to

05:18was our highest priority.

05:20And we constantly had to reflect throughout the project,

05:23throughout the 10 weeks we were on the ground,

05:25and sometimes make decisions on their behalf of like,

05:28is this safe to show?

05:28Is this not?

05:29Should we take the photo with their identities or not?

05:32I mean, lovely photos looking at them.

05:34I mean, what are you looking for when you take a picture?

05:36I'm sure you took a lot more pictures than we're seeing,

05:39but what kind of angle,

05:41what kind of influences are you looking for

05:43to create the perfect picture?

05:46I think photography, like photography,

05:48it's like you follow the light.

05:49I believe you follow the light

05:50and everything else comes with it.

05:52That's where the photography,

05:53but also in terms of subject matter,

05:55we wanted to show Afghanistan in different lights.

05:57I have been working in Afghanistan for 10 years,

06:00and I wanted this project,

06:01perhaps one of my last in Afghanistan,

06:03to look very different.

06:04So even the visual language of my photography

06:07is different in this one.

06:08We used a lot of neon lights,

06:10which is something that is used on the outside,

06:12but we brought the neon lights into women's homes.

06:14If they're not able to go out,

06:15we're going to bring it into their spaces.

06:17And what about how this came about in the first place?

06:20I mean, you've obviously both been in

06:22and around Afghanistan for a long time,

06:23but why is this a project

06:24that you both particularly wanted to do?

06:29For both of us, I think it's kind of like a testimony

06:33to the attachment we have to the country.

06:35We both know it might be our last project in Afghanistan.

06:38So we were very pleased when the Karaminiak Foundation,

06:42the photojournalism award,

06:43decided to focus this year's edition

06:45on women's rights in Afghanistan.

06:47So we applied and we were very lucky to have the space,

06:50the time over the course of six months

06:52to really do this work.

06:54It's a luxury today to have so much time

06:56to go and meet with hundreds of women,

06:58spend time with them,

06:59but also visit them, you know,

07:01like a few times over the course of these six months

07:03to really build this trust

07:05that we need to be able to show them in this light.

07:08You know, we really wanted to go beyond this narrative of,

07:11we didn't want to show, like,

07:11women in Burqa begging in front of a bakery,

07:13basically, we wanted to show them really

07:15with respect and dignity,

07:16how they wanted to be portrayed.

07:18And great to have it recognised by such a prestigious award.

07:21Absolutely, for sure.

07:22And I think, honestly, we have to acknowledge

07:26the women who have come and spoke to us

07:28and put themselves in front of our camera,

07:30they are the one with a lot of courage,

07:32that they're willing to take the risk to speak up

07:35in the time that even, like, meeting with us

07:38could have gotten them in danger.

07:42That has to be acknowledged.

07:43Do you have any hope?

07:44I mean, you know, the situation obviously

07:46has got worse and worse and worse,

07:48but, you know, things change.

07:49I mean, hopefully at some point,

07:51things will not be as restrictive.

07:54It's a very tough question.

07:55It's a question we ask to almost every woman we met

07:58and, unfortunately, none of them has hope today

08:01that things can improve under the Taliban regime.

08:04All of them are looking to leave the country.

08:07We do find some hope in the resilience that they have,

08:10in the fact that they just refuse to have their humanity raised,

08:15like the Taliban are trying to,

08:17by carving this small moment of joys,

08:20meeting with girlfriends and dancing, things like that.

08:24But it's really, really hard.

08:25And especially we see now how Afghanistan

08:27has completely fallen off of the agenda

08:30for most governments, media and all.

08:32And so for us, it was so important to continue to document it

08:36and make sure that these stories are still brought to Paris

08:39and brought to other cities in Europe.

08:42Well, great to see the pictures.

08:43Thanks very much for coming in and sharing them with us

08:45here on France 24.

08:47If you are in Paris or you're coming to Paris,

08:49the photos are going to be on display, in fact,

08:51at the Réflectoire des Cordeliers in central Paris

08:55from the 25th of October.

08:56So that's from this Friday until mid-November.

08:58They'll be on display there.

08:59So thanks very much once again.

09:00Congratulations on the award.

09:02Thanks for having us.

Category

Transcript

Recommended