In Nigeria, the rise of scam pastors has become a serious issue, with many religious leaders exploiting the faith of their followers for financial gain. In our Street Debate, we ask the youth of Lagos whether it’s time for stricter regulations on religious organizations to protect vulnerable believers from exploitation.
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00:00Hello and welcome back to the 77% Street Debate.
00:09My name is Edith Kimani and this week we are in one of my favorite places in Africa, Lagos,
00:14Nigeria.
00:15Now in this country, miracles have been known to happen.
00:18The dead have risen and diseases that have yet to have a cure have actually been cured.
00:24But these so-called men and women of God, the miracle workers, are under the spotlight
00:29because they might just be scamming people.
00:31And so today we are here to ask, does Nigeria have a problem of scam profits?
00:36Who better to answer this question for me than some fellow Nigerians.
00:39I know you want to say something.
00:40I'm going to come to you.
00:41It's already getting heated here.
00:43But I want to start with you, Olatunde, because, you know, I asked a very big question.
00:48I want you to answer it for me.
00:50Does Nigeria have a problem of scam pastors or scam faith perpetrators?
00:55We have a problem of fake miracles.
00:58You know, a lot of people have lost their faith because of such.
01:01They have lost their money.
01:02It is not an issue of individual issue alone.
01:06It's a social issue.
01:07It's a general issue.
01:08It's a national issue.
01:09It's something that needs a lot of attention.
01:10Social media is talking about it.
01:12Everybody knows about it.
01:13However, it doesn't mean that we don't have people who are genuine people who are doing
01:17the right thing and also people having their miracles, real miracles there.
01:23All right.
01:24We have Pastor Oluwase here who claims that he's one of the genuine pastors, one of the
01:28genuine people who's leading people into faith.
01:31How does one tell the difference?
01:33As a matter of fact, if there is no fake, you can't get the word the original.
01:39For instance, I'm sorry, please repeat that again.
01:41You're saying there cannot be an original unless it's a fake?
01:44There is no original.
01:46There can't be fake.
01:47In Nigeria, the highest denomination is $1,000.
01:51Can I give you fake $2,000 note?
01:53You will reject it immediately.
01:54So the fact that we are fake pastors is the major evidence that we have original pastor.
02:01Let's just come back to the facts, right?
02:03How do you distinguish between the original and the fake?
02:07Why should we trust you when you say you're a genuine pastor, for example?
02:10By their deeds.
02:11We know.
02:12If somebody tells you that he wants to pray for you, you should bring money, money for
02:15your daily life.
02:16It's a fake pastor.
02:17Okay.
02:18So you're saying that the financial motivation is one key sign that this person might be
02:21fake.
02:22All right.
02:23Let's go back to the second because we're hearing that it's very easy to tell a fake
02:26pastor from a genuine one based on their actions, but you didn't have that choice.
02:30Did you tell me a little bit about your story?
02:32I'll hold the microphone for you.
02:33There is no way you can identify a real pastor from a fake pastor.
02:40I am a person with disability.
02:42I have visual impairment.
02:44I cannot see.
02:45The first thing my parents thought of was to seek a spiritual solution to the challenge
02:51instead of seeking medical solution, which could have probably provided a lasting solution
02:58to the problem.
02:59And that led us to many traumatic betrayal in the hands of all these so-called prophets.
03:05Are you angry at your parents for this?
03:08My parents were desperate.
03:09Being the first child, they never wanted their child to become visually impaired.
03:15Okay.
03:16Thank you, David.
03:17I'll come back to you in a short while.
03:18I just want to introduce Fortune here for a second because you're a believer, right?
03:23So how does it feel when you hear David say that perhaps the spiritual guides, the spiritual
03:28leaders might have betrayed him and his family?
03:31It has to do with your faith first.
03:33You don't have to assume that because this person is a man of God, he's like an assistant
03:38Jesus or something.
03:39No.
03:40Right.
03:41You have to believe inside of you that yes, I can, I am, I can receive my healing.
03:45I can be healed first before you can get that healing.
03:49But is it not a little bit of victim blaming?
03:52Because a lot of the time the people who fall prey to these false miracles are very desperate.
03:56You should always try to not expose yourself.
04:00Let me use that word.
04:01When you put yourself out there as a vulnerable person, like desperate, so many people would
04:06like take advantage of you.
04:07I want to come to you because you belong to an organization that's the inter-religious
04:13is it the council?
04:14So is it my fault then if I go to a pastor who uses the same faith, the same chapters,
04:20the same verses to manipulate me?
04:23Is that my fault?
04:25It's not your fault.
04:27It is not the fault of Christianity.
04:30So whose fault is it?
04:31There are wolves among the sheep.
04:35I'm sorry, you're skirting around the issue.
04:37No, no, no.
04:38I asked you a very direct question.
04:39So who is responsible?
04:41You, the person that went to the pastor, you are not responsible.
04:44And as well, you are responsible for not using the spirit of God to design through yourself
04:49within you that this is a fake pastor.
04:52How do you identify a fake prophet or a fake pastor?
04:55Number one is through their teachings.
04:58But they're using the same Christian Bible that you're preaching.
05:02If you have the spirit of God in you, you will be able to decipher.
05:06Okay.
05:07Okay.
05:08Fortune, fortune, fortune is about to beat me, please.
05:13He said it already.
05:15You need to understand that the healing is from God.
05:20The pastor is just, you know, like a, like a guide.
05:24I'm completely with you up until there.
05:27When the law is broken, when there's people, when people have been manipulated and their
05:31lives have been thrown in shambles, how then should we hold those people responsible?
05:36Okay, fine.
05:37I mean, you can always like, maybe go to the police or something.
05:40I don't know.
05:41Do the right thing.
05:42I don't know.
05:43Damilola is laughing.
05:44Let me, why are you laughing Damilola when she suggests that you should go to the police?
05:48Because misfortune is absolutely confused.
05:50Guys, guys, guys, give him a chance, please give him a chance.
05:54Because there's no police in the entire universe that will attend to spiritual matters such
05:58as that.
05:59When you have a long standing issue, your discerning spirit will be absolutely silenced.
06:06So you cannot blame someone who has gone to a pastor because that person has entrusted
06:13his belief in that pastor.
06:15Okay.
06:16Thank you very much.
06:17All right.
06:18So now I am a lawyer.
06:20Number one, I will blame the pastor too.
06:22There are consequences, clear consequences.
06:25You could even be guilty of obtaining money by false pretense.
06:28Let's actually, let's drill in on that because in this country, there are people who've been
06:32prosecuted legally because of crimes related to religion, right?
06:37Absolutely.
06:38People have been prosecuted for obtaining money by false pretense.
06:41People have been prosecuted for rape.
06:43They will not go unpunished.
06:44In the law of the land, there are repercussions for people who are ready to take it up.
06:48And in the law of God, damnation is reserved for people.
06:51Let me come to Belusochoku for a second because I want to know within the interreligious council,
06:56do you have checks and balances so that if somebody comes to you and says, hey, this
07:01pastor in my church did X, Y, Z, what are the steps that you take?
07:04You have a disciplinary committee, which in can we have a ethics committee where issues
07:11like this are being reported and it's being handled.
07:13All right.
07:14Let me ask another question.
07:15Can the church be trusted to police itself?
07:18Can the police police themselves?
07:20The church hundred percent can be trusted.
07:24Let me hear from these two gentlemen here.
07:26They've been trying to get by.
07:27Weeks ago, there was something, a trending issue on Twitter about a particular pastor.
07:31He says, I must carry my twins' shrope, I'm a meek water, I'm a meek stone, do you understand
07:37that?
07:38And then meanwhile, this particular pastor continue, continue with his ministration,
07:42maybe, should I call it ministration or alleged ministration, but for the past few weeks,
07:47so nobody has penalized this man, they must close the church, even though the church is
07:51yet to be closed.
07:52Okay.
07:53Okay.
07:54Let me ask you a second, because we're hearing that one of the solutions could be closure
07:58of churches.
07:59A lawyer is here, that's what we call freedom of religion.
08:03Yes, but indeed, even the right to religion does have its limitations, right?
08:08So where is the line?
08:10Some years ago in Nigeria, I will mention the name of the church as regards the issue
08:13of miracle.
08:14They will show it on TV.
08:15The person will just wave his hand and people will fall.
08:18Governments through their grant and the government commanded broadcasting to stop the issue of
08:24miracle.
08:25They should be teaching the world.
08:26So it is expected of government.
08:28Yeah, exactly the point.
08:30There are some things that we call medical issues that should be solved in hospitals
08:33are being taken to church.
08:34If I had good employment, I will not be seeking God's help on employment.
08:38These are things that people can get anywhere by simply just, by simply just a good system.
08:45Okay.
08:46So Damilola, let me finish with you because you obviously have a very personal experience.
08:51When you hear about all these solutions, does it surprise you that prosecution of fake
08:55pastors is not one of them?
08:57It is absolutely amazing.
08:59My solution is through media.
09:03Media is not doing enough.
09:04Do you understand?
09:06So I think the media has a pivotal role to play here.
09:09See, don't believe that when you see a wrong thing that a man of God is doing, you are
09:15trying to, you are trying them through the media.
09:17So you are trying to curb a social menace, which if it occurs, it kills, it destroys.
09:25I couldn't have picked a better place to wrap up this debate, a very personal issue that
09:30obviously needs to be discussed publicly as we've heard from every single person on that
09:34panel.
09:35I don't know about you, but I had fun.