Sadiq Khan talks politics with Dylan Jones

Evening Standard

London Mayor Sadiq Khan sits down with London Standard Editor Dylan Jones to talk all things politics.

Transcript

00:00You were, are a keen ally of Ed Miliband, but how do you feel about this government

00:05prioritising foreign climate aid over British pensioners?

00:09I think they're linked. Why do I think they're linked? In the last few years,

00:13one of the things that exacerbated the cost of living crisis is the cost of bills,

00:17because of our reliance on fossil fuels. And so when Putin decides to invade Ukraine,

00:23you see the massive spike and peak in oil and gas, because it's international markets. The

00:29point that Ed is making, which I fully support, is us having energy security, us being self-sufficient,

00:35by the way, we're not short of wind or sun, it means that actually bills come down over a period

00:40of time. Had George Osborne and David Cameron not got rid of the green levy, invert commas,

00:46green crap in 2012, pensioners would be paying far smaller bills, as would the rest of us,

00:51than they currently are. The point Ed and Keir are making in relation to Great British Energy is

00:56we could massively increase energy supply, be self-sufficient, and bills would come down as well.

01:01It's a win-win. Is Nigel Farage a force for good?

01:05No. No, what he does do, though, is he manages to respond to legitimate concerns people have.

01:12I think there are two types of politicians, generally speaking. The first type tries to

01:17address people's fears. You may have a fear your daughters can't get affordable housing. You may

01:22have a concern that your loved one, your wife can't get decent healthcare. You might be concerned

01:30about the inability of you to get a job commensurate with your skills. I'm going to

01:36try and address those concerns. That's the first type of politician that I hope I am.

01:39The second type of politician plays in your face. This is the reason why your kids can't get

01:44housing is because of the European Union. The reason why your wife's having to wait for healthcare

01:50is because of the immigrant and so forth. Blaming the other is the oldest trick in the

01:57politician's handbook. I think Farage does too much of blaming the other.

02:02You're keen for the UK to rejoin Europe, aren't you?

02:05Yeah, it's not going to happen in the short term or the medium term. But in the long term,

02:10I think we should be having a conversation about that. But in the short to medium term,

02:14instead, it's closer alignment. Most successful countries trade the most with their neighbors.

02:22Whatever successful country you look at, we've got a potential market of 500 million people.

02:28It's bonkers to diverge from trading with them, to have trading friction. So I want closer

02:35alignment. And next year, there's an opportunity because next year, the European Union and the

02:40British government will review the Brexit deal we currently have. And I'll be lobbying the British

02:46government to have closer alignment rather than more divergence. Presumably, working with the

02:50Labour government has already been much easier. Oh, look, I mean, I tried really hard over the

02:58last eight years before the July 4th general election to work with the previous government.

03:02I actually worked closely with David Cameron and George Osborne. We've had ups and downs over the

03:07last eight years. But just the last nine weeks, the amount of engagement, meetings, dialogue,

03:15planning has been transformative. I'm not going to pretend to Londoners. This government's going to

03:21write us a blank check. I'm not going to pretend to Londoners. This government will give us

03:24everything we want. But we're in an open, candid, honest conversation about how we can work together

03:30for the benefit of London and the rest of the country. I'll give you just one example.

03:35So I'm keen to make all our buses electric, right? We actually have now more electric buses than any

03:42city in Western Europe, which is great. Actually, these buses are made around the country in West

03:47Yorkshire, in Ballymena, in Falkirk, in Guildford. So the point I make to the government is, look,

03:52work with us to try and get more electric buses. And by the way, you benefit the entire country

03:56because they've got the expertise to build these buses. And there are other examples. Oxford Street

04:00has been another one. The government's working with us, hand in glove, to get Oxford Street over

04:04the line. Why? Because the government recognises not just the joys of Oxford Street if it's

04:07successful, but it brings in revenues to the Treasury. Will you go for a fourth term?

04:12Ask me again in three and a half years' time. Come on, you must know if you're going to go for it.

04:17You support the second best team in the country. You know that a good football manager,

04:22a great one, only focuses on delivery. But presumably, you want to lead the Labour Party

04:28one day, don't you? No, I've no ambitions at all to lead the Labour Party. Why? You'd be good at it.

04:34Because one of my best mates is the current leader and the prime minister. He'll be the prime

04:37minister for a long time. And I look forward to working with him and supporting him. Who would

04:43you like to see as leader of the Conservatives? The person least likely to win the next general

04:49election, but the most likely to be an effective opposition. And I mean that genuinely. Who is that?

04:54So it's probably the kiss of death for them if I tell you. I will name a

04:59name in a minute. But let me see why I said that. I think whether you're a politician,

05:04whether you're a sportsperson, whether you're a newspaper, competition means you raise your game.

05:11And I think we as a Labour government will be a better government with good challenge.

05:17It's really important not to be in an echo chamber. So the four candidates who are left standing,

05:22James Cleverley, Kenny Badenoch, Robert Jenrick, and Tom Dugan had, I think the most effective

05:29opposition leader would be someone like Cleverley, who I think I know James as, you know,

05:37we're not best friends, but I've worked with him. He brings people together. He's somebody who

05:44was served in the Assembly. He's somebody who I think wouldn't play to these culture wars

05:53that one or two others are playing to. But as I said, I want an effective opposition,

05:59but not somebody good enough to win the next general election. Who is London's worst politician?

06:06I'm not going to answer that because I may need to work with them. One of the things I've learned

06:09in this job, Dylan, is, you know, when I first became mayor, I was still quite adversarial. I

06:13think my personality, but also my previous job as a parliamentarian, a litigation lawyer,

06:20I'd say it was my weaknesses being adversarial. I've tried not to be adversarial. I've tried to

06:26be a bridge builder and reach across and work with other parties. And I worry if I

06:31said another, I may need to work with another going forward and that would make it difficult.

06:35Trump or Harris?

06:36Harris.

06:38How would you cope with a new Trump presidency?

06:41Crikey. I think how would any of us cope with a new Trump presidency? Look, anybody who has studied

06:48American history and the special relationship knows the importance of America. They're the

06:51leader of the free world. You know, when, you know, America sets the tone, whether it's sending

06:59out ripples of hope or ripples of fear. I think there was a resetting of relations between US

07:05and the world when President Biden became the president, from signing up to the Paris Accords,

07:10to reassuring NATO that the NATO treaty was safe and I could go on and on. Lack of protectionism

07:17and so forth. I think, you know, another Trump presidency is quite clear from what he said

07:22publicly. He's interested in revenge. I think when it listens to J.D. Vallance, I worry about

07:28my friends who are childless and cat owners. But also I think it's the politics of fear.

07:34He plays on people's fears. And so I worry. But also the other thing it does, Dylan, is it

07:39mainstreams views that are on the periphery. But we know there are some people who have got views

07:44that we find abhorrent, but on the periphery. What Trump and Farage and these characters do is they

07:50make mainstream views that, you know, shouldn't be mainstream. And that worries me. What makes a good

07:55Londoner? Oh, good question. I've always thought, and I talk about this a lot, say I call the London

08:05promise, which is you work hard, you get a helping hand, you can achieve anything. I think what makes

08:09a good Londoner is that work ethic. Wanting to do well. Nobody comes there to sit on their bum.

08:15You want to do well. Whatever job you do, you want to give your utmost. But also in London,

08:20I think what we do, which is really remarkable when I visit other parts of the country, other

08:24parts of the world, is we don't simply tolerate difference. We respect it. We embrace it. We

08:29celebrate it, which is very different to tolerating difference. You know, you tolerate a toothache or

08:33a backache. I don't want to be tolerated as somebody who's different. And that's a lovely

08:39joy of being a Londoner. You understand that when it comes to being a Londoner.

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