Dan Ballard transfer and injury latest as Sunderland prepare for pre-season games
Dan Ballard transfer and injury latest as Sunderland prepare for pre-season games
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00:00Hello, welcome to the RAW Podcast. James and Phil here. Unfortunately I'm in Grangetown
00:26but Phil is in Spain. How has it been so far?
00:30Oh, very nice but I'd rather be in Grangetown, of course.
00:34Oh yes, I'm sure, I'm sure, I'm sure. What's the weather like out there?
00:39Warm, warm.
00:40Yeah, you don't strike me as a bloke that deals with the heat well, Phil?
00:47I deal with it all right. I don't burn too easily or anything like that but I'm definitely
00:52comfortable. The further north I can get, generally the happier I am. But yeah, I'll
00:59be okay, don't you worry about that, I'll be all right.
01:02No, I'm not worried about you in Spain, do I? Right, let's start. So we'll start actually
01:09with, we'll move on to sort of the upcoming pre-season games, team news, all of that sort
01:14of stuff shortly but we'll tackle straight out the bat the story about Dan Ballard, Phil,
01:19which was big news. Dan Ballard didn't travel to Spain despite being in the pre-season squad.
01:26That's because he sustained a knee injury, came off at half-time against South Shields,
01:32Ben Crompton came on and to be fair, at the time I didn't pick up that he had a knock
01:36and I don't think too many other people did either. But he went to London to see a specialist
01:41and he's ended up having minor surgery, Phil. So what's the latest on that? When does Sunderland
01:46expect him to be back? And stating the obvious, it's an early blow for new head coach Regis
01:51Lebrun.
01:52Yeah, I think one of the best things for Lebrun in the early weeks of the season, generally
01:56speaking, the injury picture was pretty good, wasn't it? You know, the likes of Neil and
01:59Bruce and Clark, they'd all come back from their issues really well, Serkin, Alissa,
02:05all these kind of players. So it's definitely, I'd prefer a setback. I think the club have
02:10been quite careful. It's definitely six weeks, it's up to six weeks. I don't think it's a
02:13huge injury and it kind of depends on how it progresses and, you know, it might be one
02:18where we see him back a little bit quicker. I think what we can say with this large degree
02:23of certainty is that he's not going to play in any of the pre-season fixtures. Now that
02:27obviously means he's going to be really short on match fitness because he's not going to
02:30have that kind of building block in place when he's fit again. So I think it's difficult,
02:34almost impossible to see him make the start of the championship season. I think even the
02:38couple of games after that look as if it's going to be really difficult. So I feel as
02:43if my gut tells me that it might well be the first international break, which I think
02:47is usually in early September, isn't it, when we will sort of see him after that fully fit
02:51and able to compete. So it's no big drama, you know, in terms of I think he'll play the
02:58majority of the season. It doesn't sound like the kind of injury where there's a lot of
03:01long-term worry or threat of major recurrence or anything like that. So it's not a major
03:06drama, but it just makes things a bit interesting going forward for the next few weeks because
03:09with Jenson Seal, who I guess would be your kind of first in line to come in, still out
03:14for a few months, it obviously means there's a sort of position there and there's opportunities
03:19there and there's a bit of a dilemma for Lebris. You've got Leo Yelder, who we've mostly seen
03:23at left-back, who I think wants to play at centre-half at his preferred position. So
03:27he's got a chance now. Jo Anderson obviously might hope that he can stick his hand up.
03:32Obviously he played left-back, didn't he, in the first pre-season. And then you've got
03:35the option of shifting Adil El-Essienfield, which you were there at the Games, I believe
03:39you did, didn't you, in the opening pre-season fixtures. And is that a way to maybe get El-Essien
03:43and Serkan back in the same team together, which I think is potentially quite an exciting prospect?
03:50Yeah, I'd like to see Adil El-Essien at centre-back actually. The news, Phil, broke because
03:56I think Dan Ballard was spotted at a train station and a grainy photo sent Sunderland
04:02meltdown. We weren't aware of the injury at that point, so a lot of people were speculating that
04:06it could be transfer-related because news had dropped that Dan Ballard was the subject of
04:11interest from that man. Will Stiltz keeps popping up across Sunderland's summer. RC Lann
04:21reportedly interested. That injury probably ends that transfer interest for the moment,
04:27you would think, Phil, although not indefinitely. It could resurface, I guess, towards the back end
04:32of the summer start of the season. But worth noting as well that that interest hadn't actually
04:37materialised into any bids yet. Yeah, I think realistically, the kind of money that it would
04:43take you to get Dan Ballard at this point in time, it wouldn't really make sense not to do the deal
04:48because he's going to be out for six weeks. Because if you're willing to spend that much
04:51money on him, then it would make sense. You're going to be giving him a long contract and so
04:56you would do it anyway. But I think that ultimately, as you mentioned, there's a couple
05:01of things to mark here. One is that Sunderland's position is really strong. As with loads of players,
05:06Ballard's under contract for a long time. There's absolutely no desire to sell him this summer and
05:11it would take, I would go as far as to say, pretty daft money to tempt him to do so. Another thing,
05:16as you mentioned, is there may well be interest. I'm sure there's interest from a lot of clubs,
05:19but at this stage, certainly when the news broke, neither the club nor those close to Ballard,
05:27I think everyone was taken a little bit off guard by it because there's certainly been
05:30nothing formal or anything significant yet. It doesn't mean that won't change. It doesn't mean
05:35the interest won't firm up. It doesn't mean there won't be bids in the future. But we're
05:38certainly not talking about a live deal that's been put on hold because of an injury. That's
05:44not the case. There's probably interest in Ballard from a lot of clubs, but at the moment,
05:48some of them have not had any formal expressions of interest. I don't see anything happening any
05:52time soon. Like I say, Ballard is one of those players who is inked in to be a regular starter,
05:59a massive part of the team next year. Really someone who they're investing in terms of his
06:04leadership skills because of the championship experience he now has. Obviously, the international
06:08experience he's got as well. I think he's one of those who, I wouldn't say untouchable because no
06:12one's untouchable in football and everyone has their price. But I think, DME, you would have to
06:17really cough up to get Dan Ballard this summer. Particularly because those players behind him,
06:22who he's talking to all the time, could develop to be a contender, aren't quite there yet.
06:28Because he's injured, Triantis has obviously got a knock at the moment and also I think probably
06:31he's still adjusting. You can never say never, but it's just not one I see happening this summer.
06:39But that's certainly not to say there isn't interest from a lot of clubs because I think
06:42it's pretty obvious that a player with his experience and calibre at this stage
06:46will have interest.
06:49What do you think the ballpark fee would be for a player like Ballard, Phil?
06:52Oh, that's a nightmare question.
06:56I find it really interesting though because obviously we're watching week in week out,
06:59we've watched him progress, so we value him. We know his contract length, we know his pedigree.
07:05But sometimes we can overvalue our own players, can't we? A fan base can overvalue their own
07:10players. And I guess I'm being biased here to a degree, but I genuinely think he's like
07:1520, 25 million. I could only see him get better. The only slight worry I would have about him is
07:23he has had a couple of injuries during his time at Sunderland, not last season,
07:26but his first season he broke his foot, which could happen to anybody. And then there was a
07:30few others, wasn't there? So with that knee injury as well, that's the only little question
07:34mark. But in terms of his pedigree, the way he plays football, I think he's probably one of the
07:37best centre-backs of the league at the moment. I think he's worth that sort of 20, 25 million
07:43ballpark figure.
07:46Yeah, I agree with you, actually. That's pretty much where I would land it. I think sometimes
07:49there is a temptation to be like, he's our player, he's really good and therefore he's
07:54worth like 200, 250 million. And I definitely do that as well. I'm like, oh my God, Dan Neil,
08:00like 90 million and we can talk kind of thing. But like, although it's a joke, there's a kind
08:06of serious point to that because these guys are important to the team and they are under a
08:09long-term contract. So, you know, it's not like you do have to overpay if you like, you know,
08:15their valuation will be significant to reflect both their importance to the team, their future
08:20potential and their contract. So although we're kind of joking, it is relevant because it's not
08:25like, inverted commas, not every day has to be a fair one. It's got to suit the party who the
08:30player is contracted to. So I definitely think, you know, I'm just looking through now the list
08:35of sort of like championship records and I'm looking at the main defenders that have gone.
08:40Nathan Ake went when Bournemouth were relegated, obviously to Man City for 45 million. The next
08:45one down that I can see is Ben Godfrey, went for about 25 million to Everton. And I think that's
08:52probably what you're looking at. And that's maybe overestimating a little bit because as I say,
08:57we love him and he's a Sunderland player. So maybe we'll say between 20 and 25 million would probably
09:03maybe be about right. As you said, do I see someone paying that this summer? My gut tells
09:09me probably not. If he has another sort of gun season and plays 40 games after his injury and
09:15kicks on again, then we might be having a different conversation. Listen, absolutely no way would
09:21Sunderland sell under 15 million, in my opinion. Absolutely, absolutely no way. And like I say,
09:26I think it would take towards 20 maybe, inching towards 25. And I'd imagine Arsenal will have
09:33a sell on that as well. So you have to, with a lot of these players, you have to adjust it slightly
09:37as well. Ultimately, that's the reason you get them because otherwise clubs would just hold on
09:42to them unless they knew that they were protected against them flourishing as Ballard and Jack
09:47Clark have done. Yeah, exactly. They just wouldn't let them go. They just wouldn't let them go for a
09:52fee that Sunderland or championship clubs can afford. So that's just kind of like the harsh
09:57reality, I guess. But yeah, don't see him going for a penny under 15, given his contractual
10:02situation. I'd be staggered right now. I think if you want to do the deal right now, I think you
10:08would have to, I think you would have to start at 20. But that is all hypothetical. It is all
10:12hypothetical. But it's good fun. It's good fun. It's good fun. So that's fine. It is. Transfers
10:18make the world go round, as we know. That sort of Ballard story started a bit of a flurry of
10:23transfer links, didn't it, Phil? You wrote actually that it felt like the last day of the summer
10:28window last year, where you had that interest in Roberts, Neil, and there was interest in Clark as
10:33well. Stewart ended up going. It felt like that over the past couple of days because you had the
10:38links with Ekwert, with Hume as well. And it just feels like it's all gathering pace a little bit.
10:44And it's a little bit of a reminder, actually, that Sunderland have some really, really
10:48talented championship players at a good age who could progress, who could go further up the ladder.
10:53And it does throw sort of last season's 16th place championship disappointment
10:58into stark light, doesn't it? It does in a way, yeah. It kind of seems
11:03wild, doesn't it? But it probably tells you maybe we can try and take the positive angle, which is
11:07most clubs feel that was a bit of an aberration, really, rather than the level of those players.
11:12So maybe we can take some enthusiasm and confidence from that. That's very much a glass-half-full
11:17view. But I usually go the other way. So let's go glass-half-full for a change.
11:22But yeah, I think it did. Obviously, it's to nowhere near the same extent as the end of the
11:28last summer window, because obviously, I think for a few reasons, there was a lot more sort of
11:34concrete interest. We were talking about actual bids coming in. Obviously, Stuart did go.
11:38But I kind of made that point just because I do think it's reflective of the fact that actually,
11:42you can say what you like about the project, the model or whatever. There's loads of fair
11:47things you can say. It's really frustrating when they won't sort of be flexible for a striker.
11:52Maybe they haven't signed enough championship experience, all these kind of things.
11:56The one thing you would have to say is that consistently, they've held on to talent. Like,
12:00we've got the point now where we've got enough windows, enough evidence to say like,
12:04there is absolutely no goal here to just sell players for profit at the first opportunity.
12:08Yeah, if the project was, yeah, if the project was, as soon as we can flip them to make money,
12:14they're gone. Joe would already have gone. Jack Clark would have gone last summer.
12:20Yeah, exactly. So, I do think like, if there's one thing where maybe, I think it's fair to say
12:27there should be or an element of trust has been earned, that's probably the best way to put it.
12:30I do actually think it's in terms of selling players. We know that they'll do it eventually
12:34in the right circumstances. So, Stuart being in the last year of his deal with those injury issues,
12:38Southampton coming forward, I think pretty much everyone agreed was a pretty fair price for the
12:42situation. I do think that's one thing that people can sort of keep in mind when these links
12:47happen and when these stories emerge. They're legitimate in terms of, obviously, there's loads
12:51of interest in these players. And I think at the moment, what you're also seeing as well is,
12:55I definitely think top European leagues are starting to see the Championship
12:59as a place to sign players and get good value, which would never have been the case 10 years ago.
13:03And I do wonder if Gaia Corres, who obviously went to Sporting Lisbon and absolutely smashed it,
13:09I do wonder if there's a lot of European clubs going, hang on, they could make an
13:13absolute fortune on him here and he's gone straight up to that top level. And I wonder
13:17if a few clubs are looking at it and thinking, right, who's the next guy? Who else is playing
13:21in this league who's clearly good enough? So, I do think it's something that will run and run.
13:25I think we'll talk about it loads. We'll do loads of stories on it. But I do think the core of the
13:30team for the season is locked in. And I just don't see three or four of them going in this window.
13:36I just can't see it. I'd be stunned when I have to do a different podcast on what's happened,
13:42if that's the case. In Cummins as well, Phil, quickly, not really much to write home about
13:48Sunderland apparently made. A late play for Sinclair Armstrong from QPR, but he's ended up
13:53going to Bristol City, I believe. There's also been the links to Mendy, League Two striker from
13:59Caen. Do we know anything about that, Phil, other than that Sunderland are looking to add something
14:05in that area that they don't already have? Yeah, I think we can see, as we've said a couple of
14:11times, I think there's a little bit, I don't want to say change in strategy because that's too
14:14dramatic. I think we're seeing a little bit of flexibility, right, in terms of what they're
14:19looking to do. And I think if we look at the key for more interest in January in a loan deal,
14:25obviously Moore's now gone to Sheffield United, hasn't he? I don't think Sunderland are ever
14:28going to be in a permanent deal at that level of fee and wages. But what we can certainly see is
14:32that there's probably an acceptance now that a senior striker is something that's needed,
14:38and that even if maybe it's not the normal way that they operate in the transfer market,
14:45someone needs to come in who can give those strikers the room to breathe. So I'm not sure
14:50who it will be. Mendy, it seems, has a pretty lucrative offer from Saudi Arabia at this stage
14:56in his career. Is that something that he'll want to pursue? As I imagine, that could be significant
15:01for him. So we'll have to wait and see whether anything materialises from that. But what we're
15:05certainly seeing is like a genuine acceptance or desire to add a little bit of experience in the
15:11front end of the pitch that will hopefully help the likes of Mienda and Hemiya give them a bit
15:14of time and space to grow without the sort of intense scrutiny of having to be Sunderland's
15:19number nine. Absolutely. Alan Brownfield, we'll move on to him. You've had a little chat with
15:25him today. The first bit of that is up on the Sunderland Echo website, and I believe this is
15:30the second bit coming as well for tea time. First impressions? Really good talker. I think you can
15:37see straight away why he's had such a good career at championship level, straight away why Sunderland
15:42saw him as someone who's going to add a lot to the dressing room. Really calm, being there and
15:46done it. I don't think he's going to have any problems speaking up if he feels there's something
15:50not right or something needs to be said. At the same time, we spoke a bit about that and he was
15:55really good on it in terms of saying you've got to be careful because it's something that's been
15:59mentioned a lot, but I need to earn the respect of these players. It's no good me coming in on day
16:03one and trying to run the dressing room. I have to show them that I deserve to be in this team and I
16:07have to show them that I've got something to say. So, yes, I'm happy to speak up. Yes, I want to be
16:12a leader. It comes naturally to me. I'm happy to do it, but I'm not just going to walk in on day one
16:17and start telling people what the crack is because I have to earn their respect.
16:22If I'm going to be a leader, I need to be in the team. So, yes, really interested in all that kind
16:26of stuff and also said that he hopes to feature at some point in the two games this weekend. So,
16:31something for fans to look forward to, I think, because obviously he missed the first week of
16:35pre-season. I think he's slightly behind most of the players, but it sounds like he's been doing a
16:39lot of training out here in the heat this week. So, I feel like we'll see him get some minutes
16:44this weekend and then hopefully, you know, looking towards that Blackpool and Bradford game,
16:48he can really get some minutes and then hopefully be ready for the start of the season.
16:52I really enjoyed the quote towards the back end of your first piece. I think it said something
16:58like, I'll play as a six, I'll play as an eight and I'll play as a ten, but I'll also play anywhere
17:05and I've played everywhere for Preston apart from in goal. And my initial thoughts were,
17:09you'll fit right in here because that versatility is definitely something Sunderland look for.
17:15Yeah, I did wonder whether I should mention the like 950 Sunderland central
17:19midfielders who've been converted to right back.
17:23We should come on a podcast and just sit and name midfielders that have played full back.
17:28Yeah, we will do a special podcast so people get your converted central midfielders in. We'll do,
17:34we'll rank Sunderland's converted central midfielders to full back. That's what we'll do.
17:42I think about 10 off the top of my head already.
17:44Yeah, listeners get your suggestions in, but I think like, yeah,
17:48on a serious note, it's definitely something Brown had spoken about in his conversations with
17:52the club. Like obviously he'll play anywhere and if there's millions of injuries, then he'll help
18:00out. Of course he will. But I think, I don't think he was left in any doubt that the club
18:04assigned him to play in midfield. I think that's probably the easiest way to describe it. I think
18:07he was left in no doubt that someone felt he will add something different to the midfield.
18:11That's why they want to sign him. And he did say like, probably best as an eight,
18:16sort of box to box. But I do like playing all the midfield, which I think it'll be music to
18:20the ease of Sunderland fans. Because while I think they'll, listen, we can argue about loads
18:25and debate it and God knows I've been frustrated with the times. Normally Sunderland don't play
18:29with a whole midfielder. They want to play with three midfielders who will impact the final third.
18:34There will be some games where it demands it because of the level of opposition and what
18:38have you. And we saw Sunderland fall short this year. So it's nice to know that there is someone
18:43in the squad who's got that kind of tilt to his bow, if you like. So,
18:48tilt to his bow? String to his bow. Armoury. String to his toolbox.
18:59How do you view that midfield at Sunderland at the moment? Because me and Joe touched on this
19:03very briefly the other day, but there's a lot of players now back fit for pre-season that can play
19:1110, 8 and 6 and a variation of thereof. But you don't feel like Sunderland are really
19:17fully stocked in midfield yet, I don't think. And a caveat to that would be that a couple will
19:25probably leave as well. But there's a lot of bodies there, but not necessarily the right
19:29balance in my opinion. Yeah, I agree with you. I agree with you. I suppose like the big thing is
19:36Rigg really. Is he moving into midfield? And we know he's going to get a lot of minutes because
19:40that's why he's still here and he's not a Man Utd or Bayern Munich or anywhere like that.
19:45And so if he's one of your three regularly, then actually you've got Rigg, Aushish,
19:52Embelton, Matete, Ekwer, Neal and now Brown. You are quite well stocked. It's just as you say,
19:59you feel as if there's too many of the same type of player. That's kind of the issue. That's why
20:03I like Brown so much as a signing because he is different. He may have the attacking instincts
20:09like Neal and Ekwer and Matete and Aushish and Rigg do, but I feel like he's probably got a bit
20:13more steel as well. And he's probably a bit more, his game is probably a bit more about his
20:17athleticism as well. So I think that's a really nice addition. Would I like them to just sign
20:22this dude like Claude Matalele who just sits in front of the back four and just say,
20:27they shall not pass. I would love to do that. I just don't think it's going to happen. I just,
20:32I feel as if the view from Sunderland is because they don't usually play with that kind of player
20:37in their team that it's not, you know, it doesn't make sense to commit a huge amount of wages to it
20:42or what have you. And maybe Brown's kind of like the player who can be an attacking midfielder or
20:48in certain games, you know, when you go away at Leeds United or whenever you can ask them to be
20:51a bit more disciplined maybe. Shall we talk about the trialer's goalkeeper, Phil? He obviously
20:57started against South Shields last week and I'm calling him Blondie, by the way,
21:02me enjoying this conversation, but I can't pronounce his second name and I'm not going to
21:06try. So if you want to have a crack at that, be my guest. But he's actually travelled out to Spain,
21:10hasn't he, Phil? What is the latest? Yeah, so he wasn't named in the original
21:15sort of training group. We've got Anthony Patterson, obviously Simon Moore, who's another
21:20one who I think will make his debut this weekend because he's been in full training, which is good
21:23to see. And Kelechi Chibuese, who is sort of the third official goalkeeper. Adam Richardson's out
21:31with the under-21s. They're obviously out in Italy at the moment, so they needed sort of their
21:34goalkeeping stock as well. But yeah, Blondie is out here and I think, listen, anything can sort
21:41of happen quickly, but I think that's a fairly good indication that he probably is looking to
21:46sign and the club are looking to sign him. I think the idea being that that then allows them a lot of
21:52latitude to let their young goalkeepers go out on loan over the course of the season and play
21:55regularly, which is something that we've talked about. Matty Young, I think, is very, very close
21:59now to going out on loan in the AFL. That's why he's not here in Spain. So I think that maybe once
22:06that's confirmed or if that definitely goes through, we might see a bit of progress on this one.
22:10Obviously, the player himself has a decision to make in terms of, you know, do I want to come
22:14where I might not get loads of minutes, but where the facilities are amazing and my development and
22:18my coaching is potentially going to be exceptional? Or is it time to sort of go further down the
22:23pyramid where you might not get all that to the same extent, but you'll play more regularly? So
22:27we're waiting to see what happens with that one. But as you mentioned there, he is definitely here
22:31and I think that should be, that's probably a little bit of an indication that if all progressives
22:35were young, maybe we'll see some movement on that one. Yeah, so the first of the two pre-season
22:41games in Spain comes tomorrow against Nottingham Forest. Very hard to sort of second-guess
22:48Regis Dupree, but is it possible, Phil, that we might see a different shape? I know he went with
22:544-2-3-1 over both games at the weekend, perhaps a little experiment coming up, not really sure,
23:00but maybe a mix of personnel as well leaning towards perhaps his first sort of strongest
23:08XI, an idea of that may come against Nottingham Forest, you would think?
23:12Yeah, you would think the Nottingham side is going to be slightly stronger just because of the sheer,
23:19because of the level of quality. I think that commands a certain, to get something out of the
23:22game, you need to be strong enough and you need your players to be fit enough to compete. They've spent about £500 million in the past.
23:29Yeah, exactly. So yeah, so I think that that will command like a certain level of play.
23:36But obviously fitness will be a factor as well. There may be some guys who he thinks,
23:40you know, Brown's an example where he thinks that guy could definitely be my team on the first of
23:44the season. But at the moment, this game and the potential intensity and quality might not quite be
23:48there for yet. So I do wonder if that might be something to consider as well as maybe
23:53being a little bit of a factor. But what was I going to say? What was the question? Oh, Shade.
24:00I don't know. I expect to see him experiment a bit over the course of the pre-season campaign,
24:04but he was pretty clear in his first press conference, wasn't he, that I like to, you know,
24:08attack in a 4-3-3, defend in a 4-4-2. And he did kind of say, we need to start with that
24:14and we need to give it enough time to identify the problems. And then once we've done that,
24:17then we can start making tweaks. So I wonder if for these two games this weekend, his view will be
24:22to keep things fairly similar, give the players a similar kind of exposure, split the squads a
24:27little bit again. And then at that point, he's got kind of four games where he can actually step back
24:31and look at it, review the footage, see where he thinks he's short, see where he thinks he's
24:36looking really strong. And then maybe you've got, because there's the Blackpool and the Bradford
24:40games, isn't there, within a few days, maybe that Bradford game sticks out to me as one way you can
24:46maybe do a little bit more experimentation and look at some other options. And then that leaves
24:50you the Blackpool Saturday game. And obviously we now have the Marseille Saturday game. Obviously
24:56your Marseille one is like dress rehearsal, isn't it? So I think I'd probably see that Bradford
25:01game in a couple of weeks, maybe as one where there might be a bit more scope for experimentation.
25:05I've got no idea, but just from his comments, I'd be surprised if he changed the shape tomorrow,
25:09because it feels like he wants to establish some consistency.
25:13Just on that Marseille game, Phil, that was announced last night, actually it wasn't the
25:17night before, I can't remember. It all blows into one, but that was announced recently
25:21in honour of Kiri-Louis Dreyfus's father, Robert-Louis Dreyfus, who obviously used to own
25:25Marseille, not taking place at the Stadium of Light, because the work which was announced
25:30earlier in the summer is still ongoing. However, I feel like this is going to be a real deep cut
25:35of Sunderland game in 10 years' time. Do you remember that time we played Marseille at Valley
25:40Parade, having played at Valley Parade four days earlier? It's going to be one of those, I think.
25:46Yeah, to be fair, I was really positive about it when it was announced in terms of,
25:52I think it's obviously really nice for Kiri-Louis. It's obviously a really significant
25:5615th anniversary this year of the death of his father, Robert, who I think is beloved at Marseille
26:03and that's a really nice thing. It's also a fantastic opposition the week before the start
26:07of the season to play Roberto Di Zerbi's Marseille. I think that's a fantastic dress rehearsal. I think
26:12last summer, Sunderland, in my view, didn't play the calibre of opposition that they needed to
26:19until right at the very end when they played Mallorca. This feels like we've got a much
26:22better range this time around and I think that Marseille game is a really good way to round it
26:27off. It is bizarre going to Valley Parade twice in five days. We may as well stay down there for a
26:34bit, Phil. We'll have a holiday in Glasgow. Do you know, the one thing I will say is that's
26:39actually pretty good ground for a League Two club. Facilities are decent, fantastic. I think it's a
26:45decent place to go for fans. So, it's not ideal. It's absolutely not ideal, but you know...
26:51They have tried to get it as close to the North East as they can, I think, logistically. Obviously,
26:57people will turn around and say, well, it's not actually that close to the North East. There's
27:00this stadium, there's that stadium, but a lot of these stadiums are in use that weekend because
27:04every other club in the country is trying to do the same thing and trying to get their pre-season
27:08preparations in. I don't... Any fan is not going to be able to get that game because it's not in
27:14the North East. That's a nightmare and I totally sympathise with it because it'll be a really good
27:18one to watch and we're unbelievably fortunate that we'll be able to go in a work capacity
27:22because it'll be a good game to see. But I do think it's the right level of opponent for that time
27:29and I can understand why it's not at the stadium. Hopefully, we'll see the benefits of the pitch,
27:35getting that extra rest and stuff when the stuff kicks off for real.
27:39Absolutely. Anything else you'd like to talk about, Phil, before we end the podcast?
27:44Do you know what? I feel like we should go out on a high. I think this has been a good chat.
27:49Oh, should we talk about Ecuador, actually? We should maybe talk a little bit about Ecuador.
27:52Yeah, Ecuador is a few we didn't mention, did we? Yeah.
27:54Yeah. Well, I mean, the Ecuador one I thought we should mention because that's one where there
27:58actually has been a proposal. I think that's been a formal expression of interest from Udinese,
28:04obviously, in Serie A. I think just quickly to say that from my understanding, there definitely
28:10has been interest, there has been a proposal, but I think the initial one is a long way short of
28:15what would make someone consider selling. And I think the view is if that's the opening bid,
28:20we're so far apart that it's difficult to see them getting up to our valuation because there's
28:28such a big gap. So I'm not anticipating that one to happen at the moment, but it is obviously
28:32very, very, very early days. I think the thing about Ecuador is he's shown what a good player
28:38he can be. And last year was his first full season, professional football. If you think about
28:43it, like last year, Daniel was amazing. That was basically his third season. And that was the point
28:48in which he reached a consistent level every single week. So I do think some would know that
28:54it would be reckless to get rid of him now just because he didn't always hit his top level last
29:00season. So I still think they have a pretty big valuation for Ecuador. And from what I hear,
29:06that's not in danger of being tested just yet. But obviously, middle of July is a long way to go.
29:11No, it is. It is the middle of July. That was a question I was going to sort of throw out there.
29:16And I'm a big Ecuador fan dating back to his debut against Burnley, actually. But is the
29:22idea of Pierre Ecuador as a player at the moment probably greater than the reality in terms of his
29:28performances last season, which did dip? But you must say Sunderland's performances did dip as well.
29:33There was mitigation of three managers. And obviously, as you mentioned, Ecuador's first
29:38season as well. There is clearly potential there is what I'm trying to get at. Yeah. And I go
29:44slightly the other way, actually, and say that the issues he faced at times last season,
29:50I think, have maybe pushed it the other way, where we can forget a little bit how good
29:55he's shown he can be at times. Yeah. And I think that's something that I would
30:01sort of put his mitigation in. I mean, that's the blueprint, isn't it, for Ecuador? That South
30:06Amp gave him the stadium where he was brilliant. And he did have that nasty leg injury. And I know
30:11there was a lot of like, oh, it's a dead leg. How's it taking so much of it? Exactly the same
30:15thing happened with Jack Grealish. Jack Grealish had a dead leg. And it was like, oh, it's not
30:19very serious. But it took him a long time to get his rhythm back. And so, yeah, I don't know,
30:25like, I'm not, I think, I don't think you can sit here and say that at the moment,
30:29it was like indispensable in the way that Trey Hulme is, that Dan Neal is, that Jack Clark is.
30:34But I do think we shouldn't, we shouldn't rush to make a decision based on what happened last
30:40season. Because I think you have to remember, that was his first full season of professional
30:44football. And like, I think until you've played 50, 60 games, I think you're going to be
30:49inconsistent. So, big year for him. And I think the main thing is, what's he going to be? I think
30:53that's a big question with Ecuador. Is he going to be an attacking midfielder? Is he going to be
30:56box to box? Is he going to be a holding midfielder? In which case, I think, I don't know, it's unfair
31:01to say he's got a huge amount of development to do on the defensive side of his game.
31:05So, we will see with that one. I think that's going to be one of the really
31:08interesting sort of things of this season. And Trey Hulme as well, Phil, just a quick
31:13one on him. Obviously, reports about interest from Galatasaray and whatnot. Unsurprising,
31:18really, that clubs are being mentioned with Trey Hulme because his numbers, just his sheer numbers,
31:24I haven't got them in front of me. But if you look them up compared to the rest of the
31:27championship fullbacks, they are brilliant. He often tops the charts in a number of areas.
31:32Tackling, his tackling is brilliant. If ever a player was made for Sunderland in terms of his
31:37tackling, it's Trey Hulme. Because he has sort of single-handedly restored my faith in the slide
31:42tackling and it can be achieved clearly in the championship without giving away a foul. He's
31:46a magnificent habit. Yeah, and that's probably where a lot of the value comes from, because
31:51we don't see defenders like that coming through anymore. I wonder if that will change as time
31:56starts to go on, because as wingers become more and more important, people like Jack Clark,
32:01defenders who actually can stop them in a good 1v1 are going to become a more valuable partner.
32:05And again, going back to that Gaio Correia thing, that's why I think I'm not surprised
32:09you're seeing big European clubs mentioned with these, linked to these championship players,
32:13because I think they're starting to see it as potentially a market where they can find a gem.
32:17But again, Hulme, different to what I understand, there's been no formal contact yet from anyone,
32:23so whether that changes moving forward or in the near future, we wait and see. But that's
32:27not what I'm losing any sleep over at the moment. Hulme, I think it's got three years left,
32:33so pay a huge fee or it's not happening. Yeah, it's a similar situation to Ballard as well,
32:45isn't it, and Jack Clark, and Ecuador as well, in that Sunderland are protected in a sense that
32:52they've all got contracts that have a while to run, so that bumps the price up. The flip side
32:57to that as well is that money from sales will be owed to former clubs, so that way of doing
33:03things for Sunderland has definitely benefited them, you would say. Yeah, yeah, sorry, can you
33:10just repeat that? I just got an email that I was reading, I got distracted. It wasn't a very good
33:14point anyway. No, but what I'm saying in terms of the players that are attracting interest,
33:17they've all got long contracts, but a lot of them as well, money from potential sales will be owed
33:23to their former clubs, so West Ham, Infield, Tottenham, that's how you end up getting those
33:28players at the end of the day, as we touched on. Yeah, it is, especially Hulme, I suppose,
33:32is slightly different because he's not coming from one of the big Premier League academies,
33:36so yeah, definitely with all of those players, it's easy to be like, oh well,
33:39that's Daft having a sell-on, but the reality is that's how you're able to sign them permanently,
33:43otherwise the Premier League club would just keep loaning them to you. I've seen it with
33:47Philadene, haven't we, Jadon Philadene, who had a brilliant season for Hulme, and you're looking at
33:51going, wow, how have Hulme managed to get him, and that's because, you know, obviously,
33:54Aston Villa have been able to get him back fairly easily, so I think that's just the reality of
34:01the modern game, if you like, and the financial strength that the Premier League clubs have,
34:05and the way that they can dictate in terms of the deal. It's why growing your own is such an
34:11absolutely massive thing, if you can do it consistently in the modern game, and that's
34:17where the likes of Rigg, Neil, and hopefully Tommy Watson, you know, all these kind of young
34:22players, Matty Young, Paterson, that's where these guys could change everything for Sunderland,
34:26because, you know, that will be like, either they'll develop into the players that we know
34:31we can produce from Sunderland's academy, top-level players who take Sunderland to the Premier League,
34:35or they're basically like, to use a horrible accounting term, like pure profit, who will
34:40be an absolute game-changer for you if you do have to sell them. So yeah, the point I would
34:45make on that is, it really goes to show that if you can fund and develop a top academy,
34:50that in, you know, over a five, ten-year period, that could be an absolute game-changer for you,
34:54if you're trying to get out of the Championship. But that is probably a subject for another podcast,
34:57I think, James. Yeah, absolutely. What I will add, though, Phil, and it's something we've
35:03talked about on recent podcasts as well, you mentioned the Hull City example, Leeds United
35:08is another one. In the Championship, you've seen a lot of turnover, a lot of big money deals,
35:12a lot of players being sold. Sunderland are in a good position in terms of, they don't have to sell
35:18anybody, really, this summer, do they? In terms of financial fair play, they've still got a lot of
35:22room. The club's obviously making a loss, but that's being funded by Kirilu Dreyfus and it's
35:26nowhere near the losses of most clubs in the Championship. So in terms of that, I could
35:31understand maybe why fans would look at it and go, because I've performed many a deadline day
35:36when I've got, oh my God, all of these teams are being linked with our players and they're all
35:39going to go. But it's just not at that point, is it? No, and I think the club would say that's
35:46exactly why they're really careful in terms of not just spending huge amounts of money
35:50on players with no resale value, because then you get in a situation where you may have to sell three
35:55or four players at once to meet your financial fair play, and that's obviously really destabilising
35:59for the team and can send you backwards. So I think a key part of their strategy is if we're
36:04careful in terms of how we do our recruitment, we will never be in a position where we have to
36:08lose four or five of these brilliant young players, potentially for less than they're worth, because
36:11other teams know we need to do business and all at once. The idea is that you can then have steady
36:16progression. It's a bit of a weird one in some of them because they went from six to 16, and we
36:21understand the reason why that happened. It was because they made a series of really impulsive
36:25and really bad decisions off the pitch. Let's hope that doesn't happen this year and we can have a
36:29bit of stability and that team can get back to where it was and reap the benefits, really, because
36:34I do think there'll be some new additions, obviously, and hopefully some quality added
36:38in key areas of the pitch up front, etc. But I do think the core of the team is in place and hopefully
36:42that'll be really valuable this season. It'll give someone a real edge that they have that stability.
36:47Yeah, a little statistic for you. This was shared by Roker Report, actually, from Experimental361.
36:53Sunderland, in terms of their playing squad, the players that remain at Sunderland now played 92%
37:00of the minutes last season, so there hasn't been much squad churn at Sunderland at all.
37:05Hull City, for instance, who went big in January, just 47.7% of the minutes played last season
37:12were by players still at the club, so that just goes to show, doesn't it, Phil, how
37:17the Championship's a bit bananas, really, in places. Stability can be a good thing. You don't know
37:24what the fortunes of Sunderland and Hull are going to be, but my gut instinct would be that
37:29having a lot less churn would be beneficial.
37:33Yeah, I think it's really, really, really rare to see a team have a huge turnover and hit the
37:37ground running from day one, and we saw it last summer. We saw it in League One,
37:41behind me, I mean, Christ. Yeah, yeah, and we saw it with Stoke last summer. They did loads of
37:45business under Alex Young. They did it early and they found it really difficult to get results
37:49straight away because the players were acclimatised. Now, a lot of those players, I think, towards the
37:53end of the season were starting to look really talented and it's like, oh, yeah, that's why
37:57we signed them. But I think there obviously will be exceptions that people can point to, but it's
38:02rare, I think, for teams that have a huge amount of turnover to suddenly hit the ground running
38:06and click. So hopefully that's to Sunderland's benefit. But as we said, should have been to that
38:11benefit last year and it wasn't because of other things. Well, you could argue that it's started
38:16to the benefit. You could argue that it's started to the benefit in terms of the start of the season.
38:21Yeah, yeah, no, so fingers crossed. Anyway, what have we got coming, Phil,
38:25on the Soloneco website? What are you doing over in Spain apart from drinking bottles of
38:29Spanish lager and having a good time? Yeah, I've barely had a drink yet, so I've reset that
38:35aviation. I've been hard at work for the good readers of the Soloneco and some annoying person
38:41keeps badgering me for podcasting videos. So, yeah, that's taken up plenty of my time.
38:46Imagine the person, imagine the annoying person badgering me for podcasting videos.
38:51Oh, poor Rich.
38:56Yeah, so obviously you can read that little bit that I've done with Alan Brown,
39:00and that's on the website now. So is the story on Blondie, the trialist goalkeeper. That's up
39:05there now if you want to read a bit more background on that. I'm going to have team
39:09news and previews of the Forest game tonight on the website, so you can keep an eye out for that.
39:13It's going to be a gallery of all the training pics. And also I'm going to do a bit of a feature
39:18from my chat with Alan Brown. We're going to chat about why he chose Sunderland. He's going to talk
39:23about some other stuff, his ambitions for the season and things. I'm really hopeful that people
39:28are going to enjoy reading that because he was a great interviewee. So that's hopefully going to
39:32come out early evening. Obviously, I will post it on my Twitter and it'll be on the website. But
39:36yeah, I would definitely recommend people go and read that, not because of the writer, because of
39:40the interviewee, because he was super good. And then tomorrow's game day, so we'll have all our
39:44usual stuff. Match report, ratings, analysis, all that stuff, I'll do it on the whistle. So keep
39:51your eyes out on my Twitter because I'll do my usual questions. That'll be on YouTube and on the
39:54website. So yeah, there's going to be stacks of stuff to be fair. It's exciting to have a couple
39:59of good games against good opposition to cover. And yeah, hopefully we'll have loads of stuff.
40:05Superbsunderlandecho.com for all of the latest Sunderland news. We're on YouTube,
40:11Twitter, X, Google, you name it, you can find us. Thanks, Phil, for joining us.
40:15Thanks for everybody watching at home. And yeah, we'll catch you next time.