Breaking Down the Pats OL w/ Brandon Thorn | Patriots Daily
In the latest episode of "Patriots Daily," CLNS Media Taylor Kyles sits down with offensive line guru Brandon Thorn of Establish the Run, OL Masterminds, and Bleacher Report for a deep dive into each of New England’s top offensive linemen
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00:00What's going on everyone? Taylor Kyle's here for CLNS Media coming at you with another
00:15episode of Pats Daily brought to you by our good friends at Price Picks and Game Time.
00:20Today we are joined by a special guest and friend of the show, my go to for all things
00:25offensive line play does such a great job. There's not a lot of people you can truly
00:29go to and have their opinion really be the sticking point and something you know you
00:33can consistently trust. But I've got that in today's guest, Brandon Thorne of Establish
00:37the Run, O-Line Masterminds and Bleacher Report. The person who really got me through the draft
00:42process when it came to offensive line evaluations and understanding how that position stacked
00:47up. So without further ado, Brandon, thank you so much for coming back and how you doing
00:51buddy? I'm doing really good, man. Thanks for having me. Thank you for being back. So
00:56before we get into it, you just released a piece where you ranked all the offensive
00:59lines in the NFL. Really go check it out on Establish the Run, even if it's not just for
01:04the Patriots. So you have an idea of where the positions actually stack up throughout
01:08the NFL and who the Patriots are going to be playing. And New England was actually ranked
01:1131st, tough but fair, with an offensive line of that's projected to be Chuck Socorro on
01:17the left, Sidney So, David Andrews, Nick Leverett or Leighton Robinson, and then Mike Nwenu
01:22at right tackle. So what was your thought process behind that ranking? And do you feel
01:27any better knowing that towards minicamp and the end of minicamp, the right side was actually
01:32Nwenu and Caden Wallace, a little bit of a switch up? Yeah, well, in that scenario, I
01:39would feel a little bit better about them. But, you know, I still probably have them
01:43as maybe a bottom 10 unit, even with that. I just so I mean, for my ranking, you know,
01:49I guess first 31st, with the initial projected lineup of Nwenu at right tackle, Sidney So
01:57moved over to left. Yeah, I mean, you know, I think just starting left to right, I think
02:03moving a core for over to the left side when he was, you know, a replaceable starter at
02:10right tackle. That's probably the biggest question mark that I have. Just because, you
02:17know, I don't know that he he was kind of barely hanging on, you know, at right tackle.
02:21So switching over to the left, I don't see how that is, you know, going to be an improvement.
02:28Or even if he's going to be able to kind of match the play that he had over the last several
02:32years, you know, right. So I'm expecting him to maybe be a little bit worse over there.
02:36And, you know, that could be really rough. And then there's nobody behind him to take
02:40his spot. So it's basically him or bust, essentially. So that, you know, that's pretty tough, tough
02:49outlook there. And then left guard, you know, Sidney So, who I, you know, liked coming out.
02:55I think he's a good run blocker and, you know, whatnot. Maybe going over to left, which was
03:00his college spot at Eastern Michigan. Maybe, you know, there's a little bit more comfort
03:06there. And, you know, if he's what he was last year and maybe a little bit better, then,
03:11you know, that could be pretty solid. But switching spots after a rookie year, you know,
03:16even though that is his primary position as a college athlete, you know, that that one,
03:21I still have a lot of questions about him and pass protection, especially. So just pass
03:27protection in general, which is what my rankings are geared towards for establish the run.
03:32I'm trying to focus on that and basically build in kind of a slant towards that. That
03:39left side, you know, is very questionable to me and pass protection. And then center,
03:45you know, is your your best your best player, you know, maybe him or him or Mike and one
03:51over your two kind of strong points. But, you know, center, I'm not worried about David
03:55Andrews, you know, is solid. And then, you know, the other side, I mean, if, you know,
04:01of course, this is up in the air, but Mike and want to, you know, a right tackle. I,
04:05I don't see a very good pass protector as a tackle. They're just short corners getting
04:11beat around the edge, you know, quite a bit that could be mitigated, you know, based on
04:16quarterback play and scheme and things like that. But, you know, I just see kind of an
04:21average or below average pass protector there. You know, if he slid inside, though, I think
04:26that's where he's best and where some of that, you know, where his strengths really get
04:32maximized and weaknesses can get covered up even easier. And so, you know, that would
04:36change things. But if assuming he's the right tackle, I think pass protection wise, you're
04:41just a little limited there, you know, with what you could do, especially against high
04:45end competition. So, yeah, I mean, that was kind of, you know, and then when you stack
04:52up all that stuff, I mean, I just don't see a very good pass protecting unit here. You
04:57know, granted, there's, you know, I don't know that we should necessarily be expecting
05:01that considering where they are and everything in their team building process, you know,
05:05just new, new coaching staff, new quarterback, high picked quarterback, not a lot invested
05:11in the offensive line, especially with Cole Strange out of the lineup. These are all kind
05:15of like mid rain, mid round drafted to undrafted sort of guys, you know, not paying these guys
05:23very much money. I think David Andrews, you know, cap it wise might be the highest cap
05:28and I'm not sure, but I know in water just signed that deal. But I mean, you know, it's
05:32just it's kind of expected to, you know, based on where they are. But yeah, I just have a
05:39lot of questions and pass protection and it could get a little bit better with Kate and
05:43Wallace in the lineup, you know, a little bit more upside room for improvement. But
05:46yeah, it's pretty rough going in, I think right now.
05:51That's totally fair. And that's the biggest thing. There's a lot of pessimism around this
05:53position group, and that's because there are so many unknowns. You got guys switching sides,
05:58some guys playing in the NFL for the first time, a lot of things that you just can't
06:01really grab onto and know for a fact that this is going to be a solid unit. And in saying
06:06that, let's eat our vegetables first, kind of talk about the player that you mentioned
06:10is kind of the biggest glaring hole in terms of you really don't know what you're going
06:13to get in shoots or core for. So like you said, he may not even be as good as he was
06:17on the right side when he's on the left. I actually thought in pass protection, I thought
06:21this is just my opinion. I trust you more than I trust my own eyes because you're much
06:25more experienced. But I know I saw him against Nick Bose. I thought he was pretty solid.
06:29I like the athleticism, the aggressiveness in his sets. But I also understand there's
06:33times where he gets beat inside, which you really don't want. So I'm curious in this
06:37scheme for the Patriots now expand Pelt, which the players have told us is basically going
06:41to be like the brown scheme where everything kind of builds off the run game. There's a
06:45lot of things where there won't be a ton of situations where these tackles ideally are
06:49really on an island. Do you think that scheme can do enough to hope to so core for and make
06:54him just someone who isn't the kind of liability where you're saying we can't even have him
06:57on the field kind of like what they had last season with Darian low a lot of the time with
07:01Trent Brown missing some action? Yeah. You know, with that sort of scheme, I mean, I
07:07think if it's going to happen, it's probably going to happen in that scheme, but I still
07:11don't feel that good about it. You know, I mean, the run game is going to have to be
07:15really, really good for for it to, I think, happen, you know, and for that pressure to
07:22be off of him. And, you know, they're consistently favorable down a distance situations where
07:27he's not having to be exposed and things like that. They're playing with leads, you know,
07:32kind of that sort of thing. Just a lot of favorable situations, you know, and I think
07:39if the run game is really, really good, you know, like a top 10 run game, you know, and
07:44that could kind of allow, you know, play action and things like that to be a little
07:48bit more, you know, convincing and you're just in these good, you know, fortunate kind
07:53of situations as an offensive lineman. Not a lot of drop back past situations and that
07:57sort of thing. Obvious past situations then. Yeah, it could happen, but you know, I'm pretty
08:03skeptical that that's going to happen at least initially. But, you know, granted, these rankings
08:09are in June. So, yeah, we have, I have, you know, about 45 days or so to kind of change
08:16these a little bit, at least based on training camp injuries, things like that, reports,
08:22all that, how things are going. So we'll see. But as of June, yeah, I'm pretty skeptical
08:28that that's going to happen for the course of the, you know, the full course of the season.
08:33I'm actually curious, going a little off script here, when it comes to mini camp and OTAs,
08:38these guys aren't even wearing pads. You know, the defensive line can look really good because
08:41they're in attack mode and there's not a whole lot that the offensive line can do to push back.
08:45What do you take away from that time of year? Or is there really anything? Because even the
08:49coaches have told us it's really more about fundamentals than it is about actual schemes.
08:53So, you know, sometimes a lot's made about, oh, the O-line looks so bad, but I try to reserve
08:58my judgments until more training camp and preseason. We can really see these guys kind
09:03of walk horns. I would say nothing, you know, I would take nothing from that,
09:09aside from just lineup stuff, you know, like who's playing where. So I'd say probably zero.
09:15You know, I'm basing this off of studying him his entire career, you know, and basically you just go
09:21off tape, you know, of all these guys and what you've seen over the course of years and years,
09:28unless they're, of course, rookies, and then you go based on your college, you know, evaluation.
09:32So this is purely just based off of how these guys have played football over the course of
09:37their football careers, you know, basically. And that's really it. And then, you know,
09:43you also factor in kind of scheme, you know, what you expect it to be, what, you know,
09:47the situations you expect them to be in, and then the coach and then his track record.
09:51And then in this case, we don't have a track record. However, you know, based on his background
09:56coming under Bill Callahan, there's, you know, I'm pretty encouraged by that, that he could get
10:00these guys, you know, on a good trajectory, you know, at least. So, you know, there's definitely
10:06that factor as well, that I have some optimism here just based on coach Adams, or excuse me,
10:11Peter's background. I'm going to clip that right there because I've been trying to put that
10:16asterisk on all these observations from the offensive line. It's way too soon to be saying
10:20anything definitive. I'm trying to, you know, give some optimism with the realism as well.
10:24But yeah, I just, I've been trying to say that I really don't think there's a lot we can glean
10:28before we move on from Shukes. Is there anything, as you said, you've seen years of his tape that
10:33Patriots fans can look forward to and be a little bit optimistic about? I mean, I think you touched
10:38on it. He kind of his play style, you know, that aggressive kind of, you know, get after you kind
10:43of play style, at least in pass protection. You know, he is an aggressive pass blocker,
10:49which is, you know, kind of good and bad, a double edged sword. Like you mentioned it, I mean,
10:54losing inside, that has to get corrected, you know, and it's just bad. I mean, he could get
11:01set up, you know, with counters like rushers who could set up their moves, you know, effectively
11:07with hesitation, stutters, feints, things like that can really just cause him to kind of flip
11:14open his hips and just get beat across his face very easily. So while, you know, he can kind of
11:21get after a guy with a jump set and to rep quickly here and there, I think it's very sporadic and he
11:28just loses glaringly too often for what you typically want to see a starter, you know, do.
11:36So yeah, it's just, it's very up and down. But yeah, I mean, I just think anytime you have that
11:43kind of approach that he has, you know, you're going to be able to clip a couple of nice reps
11:48a game against some really good rushers, you know. So I think that's really like the best thing
11:53that he brings is just, you know, kind of his change ups and stuff that he can kind of catch
11:58a guy off guard here and there.
12:00And Scott Peters, we trust hopefully he can work with Shooks to refine that and make sure again, the losses inside quickly are really the death knell.
12:07It's one thing if you're hanging on at least and giving your guy time, but if you're getting beat,
12:11like as soon as contact happens, that's something you can't live with. We're going to stick to the
12:15left side of the offensive line and talk about City. So, but first quick word from our friends
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13:27So moving on to Siddy So now at left guard, like you mentioned his college position,
13:31he touched on the run blocking and the pass blocking. Run blocking, he was PFF's highest
13:35rated rookie offensive lineman. And you can see that on the tape, hope that he was in between
13:39David Andrews and Mike Kenway, but he did a lot of impressive things on his own as well.
13:43But then in pass protection, he did have a pressure rate that you don't want to carry
13:47over into next season. So from your perspective, what allowed him to thrive his rookie season?
13:52Why did he struggle? And where do you think he needs to improve to really take that next step
13:57and be a quality starter? Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of it is from what you saw, you know,
14:04and him in college, you know, based on his college scouting report. Just, I think the strengths,
14:10you know, he's definitely like an older developed physically prospect, you know, coming out and
14:15he's 24, 25 years old. And he kind of plays that way. He kind of has that really established play
14:21strength and power, you know, good arm length as well, big hands. He's just a physically imposing
14:27blocker, you know, and I think that really is, you know, more easier to be translated into the run
14:33game. So heavy hands on contact establishes first meaningful contact. Well, really good in the post
14:40on double teams. I think that's probably the best thing he did last year. Him and Mike and Wando on,
14:44you know, double teams was one of the more underrated kind of duos in the league. I think
14:50along the offensive line, just in terms of creating movement, you know, reestablishing
14:54the line and getting guys, you know, pushed off the ball and creating a lot of displacement
15:00vertically and laterally. So, you know, he's able to kind of punch guys, steer them, widen them and
15:06create lanes off of his back. You primarily see that like in, you know, on angle drive blocks,
15:11base blocks, you know, down blocks and double teams. And that's kind of what he did in college.
15:16And that's where he succeeded last year. He's very physical, good finisher, you know, he's trying to
15:21set a tone out there and just plays with the right mindset. But in pass protection, just
15:27like what I basically said coming out, I saw a lot of that as well, just very rigid, you know,
15:33not very good with his hands. You know, he has a very strong punch, I would say, but
15:42when guys are set wide on him, especially, you know, like the loose three technique, kind of four
15:47eye, even five technique, those sorts of alignments, high end three techniques where he has to deal
15:52with a lot of space. He's not very good with his, you know, getting to a spot, being patient,
15:58knowing when to throw his hands, how to throw his hands with the right timing placement.
16:04So that just leads to quick losses. Guys either create, you know, crossing his face or, you know,
16:10trapping that outside hand and winning around the edge. He's just a little bit all over the place
16:15in pass protection in those sorts of situations when he's not able to get his hands on guys
16:20quickly. So he wants to set aggressively, be physical. Hopefully in this game, you know,
16:27he could do that even more. But, you know, in the true drop back situations where he's not able to
16:33just go get a guy because he's not super close to him, you know, he's just not very skilled right
16:40now. So, yeah, I mean, I just think he needs to improve just kind of with the nuances, you know,
16:47and I think footwork, you know, would help that as well to get himself in good positions,
16:51not over set guys, not under set guys and, you know, force guys to square up with him and, you
16:57know, kind of try to work down the center of him. I think that's really what his goal is and should
17:03be in pass protection is to get guys centered up. So, you know, then it's about, okay, you got to
17:08work through me as opposed to, you know, he's trying to kind of chase guys and, you know,
17:14it's just not a good situation for him. So, yeah, I mean, I just think he's kind of a
17:21one-dimensional pass protector right now and that's what hurts him.
17:25You mentioned the experience and I'm actually curious because that seems to be a pattern with
17:29what the Patriots have gone for in their offensive linemen. Like you see that with
17:33Caden Wallace where they like guys who've been playing for a while. Do you think that has
17:38something to do with the fact that there's just so little time for these offensive linemen to
17:42get quality reps in practice because you can't play with pads? There's not as much time you get
17:46to practice at all. And, you know, one guy I really liked in the draft was Kingsley Suomataia,
17:51but then, you know, he's really inexperienced and it seemed like maybe the Patriots weren't as high
17:55on him as we were on the outside. Do you feel like maybe that might be a factor in where they've been
17:59leaning the past few years when it comes to their offensive linemen? Yeah, that would make sense.
18:05You know, I think this year we had a lot of guys who were very inexperienced, you know,
18:10go high in the draft, but that's just the way it was. I mean, these guys were also very young,
18:15you know, 21 years old, that sort of thing. You know, CeeDee So is a 25-year-old rookie, I believe,
18:20so that's abnormally old. But yeah, I think there's something to that for sure.
18:27You know, and just as you said, you know, if you've played more football along the offensive line,
18:32typically you're able to project those guys easier because you kind of know what you're getting.
18:37So yeah, I mean, that would make sense to me. Granted, usually with those sorts of guys,
18:44you know, that are older, there's also a little bit less runway to improve, but
18:48if they're already good, then, you know, that doesn't matter. But in a lot of these cases,
18:54you know, it's a give and take. You know, do you want the guy with a little bit higher floor,
18:58know what you're getting, kind of plug him in and go, but he's never going to be a real needle
19:04mover for you. It just kind of depends on like where you're at to, you know, how you want to
19:10build your offensive line and what the hierarchy looks like on your offensive line too. Like are
19:15you drafting one of these high floor, low ceiling guys to come in and be your fourth or fifth best
19:20starter? You know, then that makes total sense. And, you know, I would probably advocate for that
19:26kind of player, but man, if you're starting from scratch or close to it and he's going to be your
19:30top starter or your second best starter, then, you know, I understand swinging for the fences a
19:36little bit more and go on more higher ceiling, lower floor kind of guy. So a lot of it depends
19:41on kind of where you're at, you know, what your offensive line room looks like, your coach and,
19:46you know, things like that as well. While we're on that topic, I feel like
19:50Caden Walsh is kind of a natural transition there. Someone who surprised a lot of Patriots fans,
19:54third round pick when he was selected. I know I was personally confused. I was like, okay,
19:59when he's supposed to be the right tackle, is he the right tackle? Is he going to play guard?
20:02What's going on? Elliot Wolfe told us that he was actually a Scott Peters pick and he does project
20:07him as the left tackle of the future. Probably not this season, unless he really makes a jump
20:11and there's another kind of switch, but it seems like he's going to start as the right tackle for
20:14right now. And maybe he's going to cross train. I know that's a big thing with Scott Peters. So
20:19what are you expecting from him? Do you think he can make that transition to the left side
20:22eventually? And if he does have to start immediately on the right side, what should Patriots
20:26fans expect? Yeah. I mean, I think he could potentially move over to left, especially on
20:33this offensive line where, you know, a core of four is over there and Wallace might be the better
20:39choice earlier than we may think. Honestly, I mean, I wouldn't be shocked to see Wallace over
20:44there, you know, and then, and then on one or just stick it right and just roll with that.
20:49That would make some sense. But yeah, I mean with Wallace, you know, I think the thing that I liked
20:55so much about him is just the way he moves. You know, he's just a very loose kind of fluid mover,
21:00both out of a stance and then redirecting, recovering. I think he has good body control.
21:08And just, I really liked his movement skills, you know, and he has a good ability to play long,
21:12which I know is a huge thing with Scott Peters and really because of Bill Callahan and, you know,
21:18the way that they teach, you know, in terms of playing long, Bill Callahan is a big advocate
21:23of that sort of mindset and terminology. So basically, you know, off the ball, especially
21:29in the run game, you want to establish first meaningful contact on guys. You don't want to
21:33play short and let them get into your chest. You want to play long and, you know, keep guys at your
21:38fingertips. And I specifically noted Wallace as one of those guys in this draft that did that as
21:44well as anybody. So he really maximizes his length. And if you have good length, you know,
21:49how to maximize it like that with good, you know, strike timing and hand placement,
21:54and then you're a good mover, you know, that's a really nice kind of foundation to work with.
22:00Now, you know, adding into that, I just think when you watched him in previous years,
22:05he was very inconsistent. He took a leap this year, which was nice. It seemed like
22:09things clicked for him and he had by far the best year of his career at Penn State this past season.
22:15So, you know, you would assume that he turned a corner and now, you know, he's just going to
22:21continually get incrementally better and not take a step back. So yeah, I mean, this is a guy that,
22:28you know, considering where he was drafted, it could be a really nice,
22:32could provide really nice value here in the next year or two, you know, because he's a guy who has
22:37the tools physically and sort of his technique as well, I think, to play pretty early on and,
22:44you know, do pretty well. He could even potentially play guard, not that he will here, but
22:49I talked to a coach who also mentioned that to me and I was like, yeah, I mean, I guess he probably
22:53could. So he's just one of those guys that has a nice kind of, you know, toolkit to start with,
22:59you know, as a young guy to come in and work with. So it makes a lot of sense that they liked him.
23:04And, you know, like I said, again, on this offensive line, I mean, I'd be surprised if
23:10he's going to be on the bench all year. I just, I would bet on him being in the lineup at some
23:15point for sure. Finally, a bright spot on this offensive line. Hopefully we can keep that train
23:20going. We're going to get into some of the other veterans on this unit, but first quick words for
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24:45lowest price guaranteed. So Mike and Wenu feels like one of the few players on this offensive
24:50line where you feel pretty confident you're going to get quality play out of them. Now,
24:54at right tackle, I will say, I agree. I didn't love him as a pass protector. I feel like he's
24:58an okay tackle. But I feel like he has a pro-ball upside as a guard where, again, we saw him towards
25:04the end of minicamp. My one concern with Wenu at guard is that I'm not sure how well he fits in
25:09that wide zone scheme that Alex Van Pelt has always kind of had in his back pocket. Anywhere
25:13he's gone, outside zone is either the most popular concept or the second most popular.
25:17So I'm curious, do you think with Wenu inside, it might limit their ability to have wide zone
25:22as a base in their offense? They're obviously going to do a ton of things. But also with how
25:25much they like to pull their interior alignment in that scheme, do you think maybe they might be
25:30kind of beholden to just downhill stuff? Or do you think they can still make it work if he's inside?
25:36I mean, I think they could make it work. I think, you know, going back to Wallace,
25:40maybe at left and then on Wanu at right tackle, I think that might be probably the lineup that
25:45makes the most sense. But, you know, just individually speaking, regardless of scheme,
25:50I like him most at guard. But then when you add in the scheme, yeah, then I could see
25:55okay, and based on the other players on this, you know, offensive line, right tackle could make the
26:00most sense. So I could kind of go either way. But yeah, there is, you know, some limitations,
26:07I guess, if he was at guard, you know, he's, you know, he's not Batonio or Teller or somebody like
26:11that who, you know, that this sort of scheme, those sort of guards that they've typically had
26:16who have more movement skills than him. So, you know, maybe there would be. I would ideally want
26:24to see just those adjustments made and, you know, just incorporate a little bit more gap type of
26:29scheme, you know, to fit him. But at the same time, it does, it's kind of hard to just overlook
26:36the fact that a core four is out there at left tackle. I think ideally you want to kind of work
26:41Wallace in there and try to see if he can, you know, supplement him. But yeah, I kind of go back
26:49and forth at this point, you know, I could see pros and cons to each side of it.
26:54I'm on the exact same page there. Now, David Andrews, another guy where you know what you're
26:58going to get pretty much, but it can't be ignored that he's a 10 year veteran in the NFL, which a
27:04lot of experience, but also there's wear and tear as a center. Very few players get beat up as much
27:09as those guys on the inside. So what did you see from David Andrews last season? And do you expect
27:14him to kind of take a step back in any way? Or did you see that his play was pretty steady?
27:19Yeah, I mean, as long as he's healthy and not like really, really dinged up, you know,
27:24which you could say is pretty much about anybody, but I mean, I still see a solid player, you know,
27:28somebody that you definitely don't want to replace or anything like that. Again, especially in this
27:34sort of scenario, I think his value, you can make the case he's the most valuable guy on this
27:39offensive line, specifically, you know, with Drake May coming in, you know, assuming he's, you know,
27:46playing the majority of the year, having a guy like David Andrews, you know, we've talked about
27:50this over the years, you know, having that savvy veteran experience center for a young quarterback,
27:57just, there's so much hidden value in that, you know, off the field, pre-snap the whole
28:04operation of the offense. So if Andrews goes down, you know, I just see if, and assuming May's in the
28:11lineup, that could really have a lot of negative effects on the offense. So I just think Andrews,
28:18you know, regardless of kind of like how well he's sustaining and finishing blocks or anchoring and
28:24all these sorts of things, the pre-snap operation of the offense is going to be something that he
28:31is going to be such a critical part of that his value is really hard to kind of overstate because
28:38of that. And then, yeah, when you study him on film, I still do think he is a solid player who
28:43could kind of do, he's pretty well-rounded and he doesn't have like a glaring weakness and yeah,
28:48all that kind of stuff. But I think there's just, there's just a lot that he brings to the table
28:52that is going to be a huge help to this offense and Drake May in particular. Awesome. Now wrap
28:59this up with Layden Robinson, another pick that was kind of a surprise to Patriots fans, made a
29:03lot more sense with Cole strange. Now we know he might not even play until mid season. They don't
29:08play the exact same position, but still more help on the interior. When I was looking it up, I was
29:12trying to see, all right, what idea do they have for him? And it turned out that he and Wyatt Teller
29:16Brown's offensive lineman guard were actually both day three picks and mock draft will have them
29:22pretty similar when it came to testing both guys who have good length, pretty explosive with their
29:26first step. Now, obviously Wyatt Teller is an all pro guard. I don't necessarily want to put those
29:30expectations on Layden Robinson, but under Scott Peters, do you think he can be a similar player
29:35in the way that these may be utilized? I mean, I don't see the caliber of athlete that Wyatt
29:43Teller is, you know, I, regardless of, you know, the mock draftable thing, I just, I just don't see
29:49that comp at all, you know, in terms of movement skills, athletic ability. But I do see a player
29:55that, you know, has a lot to offer. He is a really good puller, but I just think he's not going to
30:02have the range as a puller that Teller has in terms of targets that are further away, especially
30:08when he starts wrapping, you know, up through the line of scrimmage to the second level. And
30:14he's going to have to start tracking guys and things like that. The things that Teller does
30:18so well, where he has these incredible blocks, you know, at the second and third level and,
30:22you know, like long pull type situations, but short pulls kicking out a guy, like he's violent,
30:29powerful. Again, a guy with really good length, which I know Scott, or yeah, yeah, Coach,
30:37I keep calling him out, Coach Peters really likes, Coach Callahan likes. Again, playing long, getting
30:42into a guy quickly, establishing first meaningful contact is something that he did well on film.
30:48So, I mean, I really like, you know, what he did on film at Texas A&M in the run game in particular.
30:56He's definitely a guy with kind of the size, the length, the heavy hands. And I also like
31:04his snap timing a lot as well. That really stood out to me. He gets off the ball quick.
31:09And if you get off the ball quickly with those sort of measurables and that much power, you could
31:14really, you know, cave guys in in the run game and create lanes off your back and, you know,
31:19things like that. And he's a really good finisher as well. But I don't see good recovery skills if
31:25guys do get across his face or kind of get to his edges in terms of flipping his hips and, you know,
31:30sealing off lanes when, you know, guys are, you know, when he's facing like gap exchanges and
31:36slants and things like that. He doesn't handle those particularly well, but I think if his
31:41processing improves and he's really dialed in with the scheme and, you know, he's coached up
31:46well, like that stuff can get a little bit better, kind of hide that a little bit. But yeah, and the
31:52same kind of thing translates to pass protection where he, you know, delivers body blows when
31:58uncovered, you know, take guys off their feet. You know, he anchors well against the bull rush,
32:03but man, he really struggles with oversetting guys and just striking guys with two hands or
32:10just too heavy with his hands and missing clean across his face. Those were really bad on film.
32:17So he's really going to have to clean that up, you know, to stick in the lineup, I think. But
32:23yeah, I mean, he clearly has strengths, you know, that I think will translate well.
32:30You know, early on, I compared him to John Simpson. That's kind of the guy I see, you know,
32:35if he could turn out to be like a John Simpson has, then I think that's probably the best case
32:40scenario for him, which would be a really nice player, you know, and somebody who, you know,
32:46could be kind of a, you know, like the third, fourth best starter, you know, on an offensive
32:50line. And this is ideal, you know, like the top range of an outcome, I think. But I think that's,
32:56you know, within the realm of possibility for him. But yeah, and with Cole Strange,
33:01you know, I think the opportunity is there. And I would imagine that, you know, Coach Peters
33:06liked him quite a bit as well. Yeah. You mentioned the snap timing. He's one of those guys where I
33:10had to pause a lot of the time, because I'm just like, is he going early? Or like, you just
33:15literally go frame by frame, kind of like, nope, he's okay. He's just really quick. And you
33:20mentioned the way that he pulls the Patriots, especially the past couple of years, especially
33:23when he went inside. Instead of true power, you'd see more long trap, where those interior guys
33:28are really just kicking out. They're not asking to attract to the second level. Not exactly what
33:33the Browns are doing. But hopefully, again, Alex Van Pelt has been preaching, do what your players
33:37do best. You hope that he can maybe accommodate those guys and do what they do. And with the
33:41pass protection, I'm curious, because like you mentioned, without Cole Strange, there is
33:45opportunity inside, especially if and when you end up going back to right tackle and Caden Wallace
33:49at left tackle. Do you see a realistic scenario where Leighton Robinson becomes a starter in year
33:54one and isn't a true liability? Or do you think he's more of a year two starter type?
34:02I would probably lean more towards year two. But yeah, like contrasting him with Cole Strange,
34:09just, you know, completely different players, much more powerful, bigger, stronger, you know,
34:14those sorts of things. He's going to be able to anchor and handle the bull rush
34:17better than Cole Strange can. Now he's, you know, obviously, you know, he's not as good
34:22of an athlete and things like that. But I don't know that that matters a whole lot,
34:26because if you don't have the strength, you know, I feel like play strength is probably
34:30the most important thing. And he definitely has that. So yeah, I mean, in on this offensive line,
34:37I could see him starting the majority of the games, you know, but I think ideally, I'd probably
34:42be a year two starter. But in the opportunities there, man, I think on this line for him,
34:49if he earns that job early on before Cole Strange is ready to come back,
34:54you know, it might be kind of tough for Cole Strange to pry that spot back from him,
34:59you know, especially with the ability to anchor, you know, I think that that was kind of a big
35:04issue for Cole Strange, I thought. And yeah, it's kind of hard to sacrifice that for this theoretical
35:11kind of upside that Cole Strange has based on maybe, you know, his athletic ability and where
35:15he was drafted and things like that. I just, it's going to be tough for Strange to probably get back
35:20in the lineup, I would imagine, unless there's just a total catastrophe, you know, all around
35:24that, you know, what do you have to lose, but I don't necessarily see that happening, you know,
35:29based on the scheme and the coach and things like that. So.
35:33Understand Cole Strange, I actually spoke to him about the bull rush stuff. And he said that last
35:37season, he tried to put on more weight, but he mentioned he's missed so much time,
35:41you can't simulate a bull rush, you know, you can't really have somebody just attack you like
35:45that. And because he's missed so much time, it's kind of hurt his ability to also technically not
35:49only put on the weight, but then know how to use it. And with if the Patriots do end up going with
35:54the wide zone scheme of Andre Stevenson mentioned, it takes so much time, it's not like gap where you
35:58can kind of just go out there and execute it. You need chemistry, you need timing. And if he's not
36:03back until October, it's going to be really tough for a guy like Cole, just going into the lineup,
36:08if you know, everything goes right, and things are actually clicking. It really seems that this
36:12is the way his career has gone, obviously, and you hope something gets figured out down the line.
36:16Also, real quick, I'm curious, do you have any thoughts on Nick Leverett? Not a guy who figures
36:20to have a role if things go well, but I do like his versatility. And with, you know, as you know,
36:25those Browns offense use so many extra offensive linemen, I feel like he could maybe be a Nick
36:30Harris type, maybe an extra tight end. Any thoughts on his play? Yeah, I mean, based on what I saw from
36:36him in Tampa, I feel like he's kind of similar to Leighton Robinson. I think body type is actually
36:42kind of similar. I don't know his measurables off the top of my head, but kind of a similar
36:48player to Leighton Robinson, you know, in my opinion, just in terms of, I think he has pretty
36:52good length for his size and, you know, kind of heavy hands. But pass protection is very up and
37:00down, just not a very, like, tactical, nuanced, or skilled pass protector. It's just kind of hit or
37:06miss, and that's kind of why I think he hasn't been able to, you know, stay in the starting lineup.
37:12It's just kind of, he's kind of a liability there, but a guy who could play, you know, across the
37:17interior and, you know, definitely come in and, you know, play with power and violence and things
37:24like that. And, you know, he has kind of the size and the length to back it up. So, yeah, I mean,
37:30some similarities, Robinson, honestly, I think. Awesome. Brandon, thank you so much for your time,
37:35man. This has been a blast, as always. Before I let you go, please let the people know where
37:39they can find you, what great stuff you got coming down the pipeline that we should be looking out
37:42for. Yeah, so trenchwarfare.substack.com. You can find basically all my work there. I'm coming out
37:50with the offensive line almanac. I'm kind of putting that together right now, so that'll be
37:54out shortly within the next week or so. And then establishtherun.com. I just came out with my top
38:0232 offensive line rankings, and then I'll come out with my top 32 defensive line rankings there as
38:07well. You know, come out with those initially and then probably have some minor updates, you know,
38:12after training camp ends and things like that. Awesome. Thank you so much for your insight,
38:18buddy. One of the best in the business. And thank you all, as always, for watching.
38:22Take care of yourselves. Take care of each other. We'll see you next time. Peace, y'all.