'Hacks' Creators Talk Deborah and Ava's 'Love Story,' That Shocking Final Scene and Casting At Parties | Showrunners Sitdown
The creators of Hacks, Lucia Aniello, Paul W. Downs and Jen Statsky, break down their complex characters, that season finale twist, and how they cast so many great guest stars at parties in this exclusive interview.
Variety Showrunners Sitdown presented by FX.
Variety Showrunners Sitdown presented by FX.
Category
✨
PeopleTranscript
00:00How aware are you guys of the fans
00:02who are absolutely positive that this is a love story
00:06between Debra and Ava?
00:08It actually makes me think that it's really good
00:10that we had done the sex dream in season one
00:12before the show came out,
00:14but, like, it's always been in the DNA of the show.
00:26Thank you all for being here.
00:28I wanted to start at the very end of the finale.
00:33I also realized that it would be really, really bad
00:36if people found out that you slept with the chairman
00:38of this company right before he gave you your own show.
00:42So, I think I am your head writer after all.
00:47Did you begin writing season three
00:50knowing that Ava would blackmail Debra
00:54to get the head writer job?
00:55We had to sleep every night knowing that was gonna happen.
00:59Yeah. Some sleepless nights.
01:00I was gonna say, we tossed, we turned,
01:02but we knew it had to happen.
01:03But, yeah, when we start a season,
01:04we have, like, tentpoles of where we're going,
01:07and certainly always it's most important
01:09to know what the end is,
01:10so you know what you're building towards,
01:12and so we always knew that that's what it would be.
01:14Did you see it coming?
01:15No, no.
01:16Where do you feel like they are in that final moment
01:19when they're staring at each other?
01:21I think there's a lot of feelings.
01:22I think for Ava,
01:24I think she's surprisingly comfortable with it.
01:27I think she feels like it's her coming into her,
01:30not final form, but for her to realize,
01:32I think, the potential that maybe Debra always saw in her,
01:35and whether or not fulfilling that potential
01:36is good for her long-term or not,
01:38I think that is one of the bigger questions
01:40that we'll be exploring.
01:41As for Debra, I think she's really mad.
01:43Yeah.
01:44And a little bit proud.
01:45A little bit, yeah.
01:46I mean, she hires her because she's, like,
01:48a worthy opponent, and she's not backing down.
01:51Ava keeps sort of leveling up.
01:52Also, Ava thinks it's benevolent.
01:54She's like, I am doing this for your own good,
01:57and I think that's part of the reason why
01:58Ava's very comfortable in doing it,
02:00and she knows she needs to.
02:02Yeah.
02:03We end season three, now they are facing off,
02:06and they are at a point in their relationship
02:09they've never quite been at before,
02:11where they're both so mad and angry at each other,
02:14and there's been this betrayal,
02:16and yet they are handcuffed together,
02:18having to do the greatest challenge
02:20of both of their lives professionally.
02:22And so now it's like, how can they make this work
02:25while at being at odds with each other personally?
02:28Were you laying the groundwork
02:30for this massive power reversal?
02:33We tried to keep it in mind,
02:35not just in terms of their dynamic,
02:36but also in terms of what we did visually with the show.
02:38I mean, we opened the season,
02:40a statue of Julius Caesar following behind Debra's back,
02:43so it was like we were leaving breadcrumbs
02:44for the people that watched three, four, or five times.
02:47Wait, what's another breadcrumb?
02:48DJ, after the roast, says to her mom,
02:50like, you're an addict just like me.
02:52Addicts always hurt the ones we love,
02:53and that was also a suggestion that Debra, in the end,
02:56would retract the offer
02:58for the late-night head writer job.
03:00In the penultimate episode,
03:02they're at a frat house, and they're fighting.
03:04I can't be woke.
03:06I'm exhausted!
03:07Okay, I know this feels like the end of the world,
03:11but it really isn't.
03:12Ava's advocating for Debra to apologize for a joke,
03:15and she said, you know,
03:17you think that right and wrong is really clear,
03:18but it's never that clear,
03:20and one day, you'll understand that.
03:22Don't you lecture me!
03:25I was canceled before there was even a name for it!
03:27You only gave it a name
03:28after it started happening to powerful men!
03:31Marcus is about to quit.
03:32There was a scene where he actually gave notice to Debra,
03:37but it's not in the finale.
03:39Why did you not include that?
03:41You know, we try and keep the episodes
03:43as close to 30 minutes as we can,
03:44so sometimes it's a length thing,
03:46but also for us,
03:47we felt like there was a lot of resolutions.
03:49I mean, Kathy, her sister, and her
03:51have sort of their big final conversation.
03:53Obviously, Ava and Debra have this really big throwdown.
03:57Jimmy and Kayla have a new level to their relationship.
04:00There were a lot of bows
04:01that were kind of wrapping things up,
04:02and so we thought that might be one fun
04:04kind of cliffhanger to leave for us
04:06to play with next season.
04:07Especially if the news of Marcus leaving
04:11comes on the heels of after Ava's,
04:14let's say, blackmail betrayal.
04:17It felt like that would be landing on Debra
04:19in a very different way.
04:20It felt storytelling-wise,
04:21like it would be something
04:23that would be more interesting to explore
04:24a little farther down the road for Debra.
04:27So the door is closed on Kathy?
04:30We won't know.
04:31I mean, there's no promise that she would come back,
04:33but we have talked about different ways
04:35that we potentially could bring her back,
04:37partly because we love Jason with Cameron.
04:39She's just such a perfect Kathy for us,
04:42and they were so naturally sibling-like
04:44in a really cool way.
04:45But also, even though I think Kathy feels very at peace
04:49with their relationship,
04:50doesn't mean Debra is,
04:51and doesn't mean DJ is,
04:52and doesn't mean that other ties
04:54that bind them together couldn't possibly bring them back.
04:57Can you talk about casting J. Smith-Cameron?
05:00Yeah, I mean, we were all such massive fans of hers,
05:04her entire body of work,
05:06and then, of course, most recently, a succession,
05:08and so they look similar.
05:10When you see it, you're like,
05:11yes, this makes sense for siblings,
05:13and then Jay and Jean fell into this
05:16incredibly sibling-like dynamic right away on set
05:19that was really special and fun to see,
05:21like when they have that snowball fight.
05:23Ow!
05:23Oh!
05:24That's expensive snow!
05:26Oh my God.
05:27It feels like they're sisters,
05:29and so we were so thrilled that Jay wanted to do it,
05:31and then when she got there and on set
05:33and started doing scenes with Jean,
05:34it was just really, really special.
05:37Ow!
05:38Ow, it burns!
05:39Why does it burn?
05:39Shit!
05:40It goes!
05:41It's methylene chloride!
05:42Why would you throw it at me?
05:44It's your start-out!
05:45You know, we offered her a party.
05:47No.
05:48Twice, actually, two different parties.
05:49Wait, say more.
05:52We were at an HBO Emmys party,
05:54and we'd already been talking for a long time
05:56about how we wanted her to play it,
05:57and so we just went up to her and we're like,
05:59hey, we make this show, Hacks,
06:02like, do you ever wanna be on it?
06:04And she's like, um, sure.
06:05And we were like, okay, you play this, this, this.
06:07She's like, I'm kind of busy, honey.
06:09Yeah, whatever.
06:11You know what, we're gonna see you at another party,
06:12we're gonna do it again.
06:13And then we saw her at another party,
06:13and we're like, it's us again.
06:15We're gonna get a little more into the details here.
06:17Here's kind of the idea, and she's like, okay.
06:20She was like, I'm in.
06:20She's like, I'm still at a party, though.
06:22Yeah, yeah, yeah.
06:23But she said, I'd love to do it.
06:24And so, it's not the first time that we've done that.
06:27Cast people, actually.
06:30Katharine Newton in the finale.
06:31Oh, really?
06:32Who plays Kayla's kind of high school bully,
06:34same thing, at a party we saw.
06:36We saw her, and she was really complimentary
06:38about the show, and we were like,
06:39well, there actually is a part you'd be great for.
06:41Would you ever do it?
06:42And she was like, yeah.
06:44She's like, this is my agent.
06:44So, it was kind of like.
06:46We made the offer right there.
06:47Yeah, you know, the producer hat was on with the tux.
06:51Beyond meeting people at parties and offering them the roles,
06:55what is your approach to guest casting?
06:57Because the show really excels in the guest cast.
07:00Deidre Hall is Jimmy's mom.
07:03How did that happen?
07:05Well, we were talking about Jimmy being sort of a,
07:08the son of this person who owned a management company,
07:11and his father probably had three or four marriages,
07:13and we thought, okay, Jimmy's mom could be an actress.
07:16That makes sense.
07:17And then, somehow, the muse visited the room,
07:20and we were like, what about Deidre Hall?
07:21And everyone said, yes.
07:23Yeah.
07:24That is it.
07:25That was instantly right.
07:26The discussion stopped, and of course, it's really,
07:28it's actually, I think, tricky to get people
07:30to play themselves, because it's sort of like,
07:31they're playing a version of themselves.
07:32It's not them, but.
07:34So, that can be tricky, but I had a phone call with Deidre,
07:37and we talked about it, and she said, I'm in.
07:40So, and it was actually great, because I think,
07:42I think she really likes comedy,
07:44and obviously hasn't done a ton of comedy,
07:46so I think she was really happy to play with us.
07:48She was so great.
07:49She was really great.
07:50Helen Hunt, I mean.
07:52Christina Hendricks.
07:53You had so many.
07:54Christopher Lloyd.
07:54Yes.
07:55Yeah.
07:56Christina Hendricks.
07:57Yep, yep.
07:58Yeah.
07:59As a evil, lesbian, Republican golfer.
08:00With a piss kink.
08:02Yes.
08:04Everything is so problematic these days.
08:06What, are you gonna lecture me on inclusivity?
08:08Tell me how I can't fund fracking?
08:11Fra, fracking?
08:13Are you a Republican?
08:15Obviously.
08:16Oh my God!
08:17We all come to a varying degree
08:19from a performance background,
08:20and so we love writing for actors.
08:22We love actors, and we often think of people in the role
08:25that helps us with their dialogue,
08:27and sort of shaping the character.
08:28We've been lucky that a lot of those people
08:30have said yes to play the part, so.
08:33I mean, Laurie Metcalf from season two, as Weed,
08:35is like, we could have done a whole.
08:37A spin-off.
08:38A spin-off, honestly.
08:39So it's like.
08:40Weed on wheels, yeah.
08:41So the only hard thing sometimes is being like,
08:43we know you are so talented
08:44that we could dedicate a whole episode to you,
08:46but like, this is the part.
08:48And so we're kind of like, no worries
08:49if you don't wanna do it.
08:50So whenever they are willing to do it,
08:52we are like, so grateful.
08:53Because, you know, it's just a great spice
08:56to throw over an episode, a season, a series.
08:59How aware are you guys of the fans
09:01who are absolutely positive that this is a love story
09:04between Debra and Ava?
09:07Do you write to that at all?
09:10We are aware.
09:10I get a comment, make them a couple
09:11on almost anything I post.
09:12So we do see it, you know?
09:15It actually makes me think that it's really good
09:17that we had done the sex dream in season one
09:19before the show came out.
09:20Because then it would have.
09:21Had we done it after kind of that fan base
09:25kind of was feeling that way,
09:27then it would have seemed like we were pandering.
09:28But like, it's always been in the DNA of the show
09:31since the beginning.
09:33It is a love story.
09:35No, none of us are gonna argue with that.
09:37I mean, in terms of whether it's like
09:38an explicitly sexual story,
09:41I think it's like so easy to see a love story
09:43and be like, well, where's the sex part?
09:45You know, especially in a relationship
09:48that may be an older woman, a young woman
09:49that hasn't been explored as much on television.
09:52So we're definitely aware of it.
09:54And it makes total sense in so many ways.
09:56As for, you know, that's not necessarily
09:59how we initially pitched the story.
10:02I think it's also like,
10:03we've been thinking about these characters
10:05and their dynamic and their relationship
10:07and crafting it since 2015.
10:09And we had four years before we pitched it
10:12of talking about what the dynamic is and what it was.
10:14And so I think it would be not a great idea
10:17to write towards what other people are saying anyway,
10:20but it's already like so, I think in our brains
10:23and our heads, what their relationship is
10:25and where we wanna go.
10:27But that being said, like,
10:28the fact that people respond to it
10:30and wanna write things,
10:31is incredibly amazing to us.
10:34And like what you said, it's a love story.
10:36It is a love story, period.
10:37And there's all different ways love stories can look.
10:41Backing up, this season was not easy to make.
10:44Jean Smart had a heart surgery.
10:46What was your experience of this?
10:50I mean, we were very worried,
10:51but you know, we're all very close.
10:52And so we tried to be as there for her as we could be.
10:56It's so bizarre, my mom broke her ankle
10:59the same week that she went to Cedars.
11:01So I was there.
11:02So I was like, Jean, I'm at Cedars.
11:04And so I was with her for a good amount of time.
11:06But she is so tough.
11:08I mean, she is, I mean, Hannah has said this,
11:11but she is titanium.
11:12And she was like, great, let's do it.
11:13And then I'll come back next week.
11:15You know, she was so concerned about the crew
11:17and about the show.
11:17And it was sort of like,
11:19well, let's concentrate on your health
11:20and just worry about that.
11:22But she's someone who's so dedicated to her work
11:24and also to her family,
11:26which is, you know, the cast and the crew.
11:28We all become very much a family.
11:29So she really, I think that was really her biggest concern
11:32was the break we would have to all take.
11:34But you know, everybody was there for her.
11:36And most of the crew, I would say,
11:39all of the crew waited until she got back,
11:41didn't take other jobs.
11:42They wanted to be there for her.
11:43So it was really kind of powerful reunion.
11:47Did the strikes end up being the break she needed
11:52and never would have taken to recover as well as she could?
11:56Yeah, I mean, I do think that she is somebody
11:59who is at this really incredible place in her career
12:02where she is being offered amazing movies
12:05and things in between shooting.
12:06And I think part of her wants to take advantage of that
12:09because there are these really rich, delicious parts.
12:11But I think she also, you know,
12:13just had this kind of health scare.
12:15And so, yeah, I think you're right
12:17that she probably wouldn't have taken that time off.
12:20Even her rest isn't true rest.
12:21She was out on the picket lines.
12:23I mean, it's like 98 degrees out.
12:25Many times, a bunch.
12:26She was out there a lot.
12:28Yes.
12:29So, you know, no one is ever gonna stop her.
12:32And when the strikes ended, how far had you gotten?
12:36Halfway, a little more than half.
12:37We had shot about 40% before her health scare,
12:41another 5%, 10%, and then, yeah, last 50-something.
12:44So when did you actually finish production on season four?
12:47January?
12:47End of January, 2024, yeah.
12:50It basically, on one of the last days of shooting,
12:52I looked and we had been shooting season three
12:54for a full, like, 420 days or something.
12:58Not every day.
12:59Not every day, not every day.
13:00Some strikes and breaks in between.
13:01That would have been beautiful.
13:03Great season.
13:04Megalopolis.
13:05Yeah, yeah, yeah.
13:06You know what's so funny
13:07is that we shot the Vegas stuff at the very end.
13:10So the very first shot with the drone shot
13:13that gets caught, that was our very last shot
13:15that we shot of the whole season,
13:16and it was our first one in the episode.
13:17And you know what?
13:18Actually, it was so crazy.
13:19The very first shot we did,
13:21coming back from the double strikes and gene surgery,
13:25was the last scene with Ava and Debra in Bulletproof,
13:28in the finale.
13:29Yes, in Bulletproof.
13:30That was the first thing we came back to,
13:31which is such an intense scene.
13:33Yeah.
13:34You said you needed me!
13:35I do, but not to be my head writer.
13:39Well, what about what I need?
13:40What you need is to take the win of being on the staff
13:44and be happy!
13:45Happy with a demotion?
13:47It was a bizarre way to start,
13:48but it honestly was really, it really,
13:51I mean, I think it charged that scene.
13:52Right, there was some,
13:53I don't know, nervous, jitter, tension.
13:55In terms of the arc of the season,
13:57was that the plan from the start,
14:00like from years ago,
14:02that season three would be about her trying to do this?
14:05We actually pitched each season in our pitch,
14:07including we pitched the last scene
14:09of this finale in our pitch.
14:11So we very much have known this whole time,
14:13especially because, like Jen said,
14:14we've been working on this since 2015.
14:16Like, it gave us so much time
14:18to really know exactly what each season was.
14:22Was she always going to get the job?
14:24No, she always-
14:25She was always gonna get it.
14:25She was always gonna get it, yeah.
14:26Like, there's always, I mean,
14:27obviously it's very one step forward,
14:28two step back in general on this show,
14:30but I think one of the things we initially said
14:33when we pitched the show is this is a story of redemption.
14:37And so for us,
14:38planting in this idea of this white whale for her
14:40and then her ultimately getting it,
14:42obviously at what cost,
14:45will be something that'll be explored,
14:46but that was always part of her kind of public redemption.
14:49Considering that Debra is never satisfied,
14:52where does that leave her at the end of the season?
14:54Well, I think that's exactly the thing we want to explore,
14:57is like for such a driven person like Debra
15:00who always has to keep going and going,
15:02when you get this dream, it's,
15:04yes, it's like, oh my gosh, I did it,
15:06but then I think a thing sets in,
15:09especially for creatives in this industry,
15:10there's all these things, benchmarks,
15:12that you're like, well, if I ever hit that,
15:14if I ever get that, if I ever get that,
15:16but it doesn't always come with the satisfaction
15:18that you think it will.
15:19And then you have to actually day in, day out do the job.
15:22So I think what we're excited to explore
15:24is how does she emotionally feel getting this thing?
15:28Can she enjoy it?
15:29Is the reality of it much different
15:31than perhaps she imagined for 40 years
15:34that she's been wanting this?
15:35What are your conversations like with Jean Smart?
15:39Does she leave it to you all?
15:41She really leaves it to us.
15:42I mean, she does sometimes have,
15:43like she's like, you know what would be funny?
15:44You know, every once in a while there'll be a scene
15:46that she will think about,
15:48but no, she really leaves,
15:49not only does she leave it to us,
15:50but she and Hannah do this thing
15:53where they wanna read it as it comes out.
15:55So they read each script in order.
15:58It's as if they're living it.
15:59I mean, I think it's an interesting way to work,
16:00that it's as if they're living
16:02through the eyes of the character.
16:03But Jean, you know, being someone who comes from theater,
16:06she's so committed to the text
16:07and she is so deferential to the writing
16:10that she really does leave it to us.
16:11How has Hannah Einbinder worked
16:14to deepen the Ava character?
16:17It's been so rewarding to watch Hannah blossom
16:22as she has, as the character kind of has too.
16:25I think she really is just such a deeply empathetic,
16:31beautiful person, really like Hannah is.
16:33And I think she's lent that to the character of Ava.
16:36And I think even in the just the way
16:39sometimes she looks at Debra
16:40and the way that she looks at the world,
16:42it is with this like love and curiosity and empathy.
16:46But I think the goodness of Hannah at her core
16:50lends that like heart to Ava
16:53and it makes sometimes some of her irredeemable qualities
16:56more redeemable.
16:57It's unbelievable how with so,
16:59sometimes with so few words,
17:01she shows you everything she's thinking.
17:03It's really.
17:04Yeah.
17:05I wanted to ask about the Berkeley episode.
17:07Okay, which minority group is upset?
17:09I don't think minority is the proper term anymore.
17:12What do they call?
17:13No, don't say they.
17:14Oh, I thought everybody was they now.
17:16It's a different thing.
17:17What made you want to do that episode
17:19in these troubled times?
17:22We pitched that episode in the initial pitch.
17:24And it was something we always knew we wanted to explore
17:26that someone like Debra,
17:27because of the way context shifts and culture changes,
17:30comedy doesn't always age well.
17:32And so we knew that there must be material
17:34for someone like Debra Vance
17:35that didn't necessarily age well.
17:37And so that was an episode that honestly,
17:39I think we were a little bit intimidated to do
17:43because to wrap your arms around all of it
17:46and to stick the landing,
17:47it's a very small target.
17:49So we considered it a lot,
17:51but it felt like this season,
17:52especially with the stakes of getting this job
17:54as a late night host and being close to it,
17:57the potential for some problematic material to resurface
18:02was like extra, extra scary for the character.
18:05So we decided we had to do it.
18:08Jimmy and Kayla also grew this season.
18:10You made Kayla not a joke
18:13and actually quite good at some things.
18:15Tell me about their journey in season three, Jimmy.
18:19Well, yeah, I think we always,
18:23and we tried to do this a little bit in season two,
18:25but it was great that in season three,
18:27their story was so enmeshed with Debra's quest
18:30of getting late night
18:31that we were able to explore their relationship
18:33and then as characters more
18:34and learn more about how Kayla became this way
18:37and how Jimmy became this way.
18:38We meet Jimmy's mom.
18:39And it was really, really rewarding
18:41to get to have scenes with Meg
18:44that weren't just a comedic duo scene.
18:47So it felt very good to be able to deepen
18:49all the stuff that we've done.
18:50And in a way, it felt more hacks than it ever has before
18:53because it was a story that was comedic.
18:55Obviously, there's a lot of hard comedy
18:57that Meg and I get to do,
18:58but we also got to do a little bit more dramatic work,
19:02which was really rewarding.
19:03It's some of our favorite things to get to do
19:05is when you have two incredibly gifted comedic actors
19:09like Paul and Meg,
19:10and then you also know that they have
19:14so many other gears that they can shift into.
19:16And to get to do that,
19:17for Paul to show that, for Meg to show that
19:19as we deepen their characters
19:21and had some more emotional stuff,
19:22it's very rewarding.
19:24It's very like embodies the tone of the show
19:27that we love to do.
19:28And so it was just,
19:29it's very satisfying to get to do that
19:31with all of the characters,
19:33like with Paul and Meg.
19:34What's the three of your writing process?
19:37Do you guys have rituals and things you do
19:39when it's the three of you doing it together?
19:43No.
19:43I wish you'd get a ritual.
19:44Yeah, I know.
19:45I wish we had a really colorful response.
19:47I mean, when we write an episode together,
19:48we usually break it up by acts.
19:51So like, he'll take an act, I'll take an act,
19:53she'll take an act, and then we'll go back.
19:55Three act structure is helpful.
19:56Yeah.
19:57Yeah.
19:58But they're all really, really broken
19:59by the time we get there
19:59because we spend so much time outlining and breaking
20:02and writing sample dialogue and jokes.
20:04So, and all of that is very collaborative,
20:06not just with us, but with our writer's room.
20:08But it gives us an opportunity in our actual drafts
20:10to try to surprise the other people with new jokes.
20:13And that's really like the part of it that feels
20:15the most like naturally organic, exciting part of it,
20:19you know, because it's like,
20:20I know exactly who my audience is, it's them.
20:22And I just want to make them laugh in my draft.
20:24It might get rewritten, whatever, whatever.
20:26But then like, I don't know, being in that mindset
20:28kind of really like brings the flow on.
20:31And also we don't usually omit or cut whole scenes.
20:35I know we did within the finale,
20:36like we talked about with Marcus,
20:38but generally we don't really do that.
20:40It's, usually it's only the very first episode sometimes
20:45because you're like really trying to be like,
20:46how do we bring in all this information?
20:48And maybe sometimes the last episode,
20:50but weirdly in the middle,
20:51we don't really omit very much at all.
20:53What is your favorite scene or moment
20:58or joke from this season?
21:00I'm biased because I was in it,
21:02but the airplane scene.
21:03I was going to say the airplane scene.
21:04The airplane scene is my favorite scene.
21:06It's so fun for us.
21:08Cause it gets to play with this rom-com trope
21:10of running onto an airplane, but it's not romantic.
21:14So please stay here with me and be my partner.
21:18Oh my God, I'm so sorry.
21:19I thought you were a man.
21:20They're gay.
21:21What? I am a man.
21:22But you said partner.
21:23Leave us alone.
21:25That one is fun because it gets to like really,
21:27I think do the tone we love to do,
21:29which is like really hard, funny moments.
21:31Like, you know, this woman yelling,
21:33oh, I didn't know you were a man.
21:35They're, what was it?
21:36Oh, oh, I didn't know you were gay.
21:38Yeah, you said partner.
21:41Oh, they're gay.
21:42So funny.
21:43Leave us alone.
21:44Exactly.
21:45The leave us alone is so funny,
21:46but it also gets to be like this real thing
21:47where he's like,
21:48I genuinely now understand your worth and how good you are.
21:51And I want you to be a manager.
21:52And like, I think it's like a version
21:54where like it gets to be really big comedy,
21:56but really big drama, not drama, but like real moment.
21:59Heartfelt.
22:00Yeah, heartfelt.
22:01And so that's a great, that's one that I do.
22:03Point to as a mixed tone that we like.
22:05I have two answers.
22:07A dramatic one and a comedic one.
22:09Comedic one is in episode 304
22:12when Jimmy is pitching Ava
22:14on all the different open writing assignments.
22:16So they've done some market research
22:18and they found that Gen Z thinks the animated spoon
22:20from Beauty and the Beast is hot
22:22and apparently can get it.
22:24So they want something that focuses on his love life.
22:27Okay.
22:28Give me another one.
22:29No spoon.
22:30That is one of my all time favorite scenes
22:33we've ever done.
22:34And Paul has some of my favorite line reads
22:35in the history of the show in that one.
22:38No spoon.
22:41So comedically, I love that scene.
22:43It's obviously very inside baseball,
22:44so holds a place dear in my heart.
22:46And then I think dramatically,
22:48the scene in Bulletproof, the finale
22:50between Debra and Ava in the living room
22:52is like one of my favorite we've ever, ever done.
22:55And I think Hannah blew everyone away on the day.
22:59God, you are so selfish.
23:01Yes, I am.
23:03You have to be selfish.
23:07Well, I don't wanna be.
23:08It was just so, so incredible.
23:09Gene is so incredible.
23:11Like that scene is really special.
23:14I've never actually had this before,
23:15but I've never been in the edit
23:17and felt so as if I was in the scene.
23:22Like even editing it, even like the rougher cuts,
23:24I was just like,
23:26like with bated breath because it just was so intense.
23:29And it's like,
23:31Hannah spilled her entire guts and heart out.
23:35You know, like she took everything.
23:36And then you also see in the end
23:38the way she has to turn and start to like
23:41realize things about Debra, realize things about herself
23:44and kind of like, you know, hits her with the like,
23:47you think you're only lonely
23:48when you drink a bottle of champagne.
23:50Bullshit, you're lonely all the fucking time.
23:56You're gonna die that way too.
24:00It's like such a verdict on how she feels about Debra.
24:05And I think Gene does such an amazing job
24:09that whole scene of wanting to be open and real and honest
24:15and perhaps even loving back,
24:17but she has to put up such a wall.
24:20And I think Gene does an amazing job of holding the wall
24:23when you know the character doesn't want to.
24:25And that's, I think it's really subtle,
24:28but it's really powerful.
24:29And it gave Hannah so much to play off of.
24:32I mean, two masters at work, honestly.
24:34They're so good in the scene
24:35that the plane scene was after it.
24:39And it was hard to laugh.
24:40We had to move it.
24:41We put it before that scene because once you're there,
24:44it's you're on a frequency and you're really like,
24:46there's so much momentum to the end that we thought,
24:49okay, we need to truncate what's happening at the end.
24:51So that was an example of rewriting it in the edit.
24:53Yeah, we've never done that before had to fully re,
24:56it was the biggest reorder we've ever done,
24:58but it was like, Paul and Meg were too funny.
25:01Gene and Hannah were too dramatically compelling
25:04and honestly heartbreaking that, yeah, you couldn't laugh.
25:10It was just too hard comedy after it.
25:11So we fully flipped it, put the plane scene first,
25:15had to, the Jimmy Ava scene,
25:17which was so lovely within Jimmy's new office,
25:19that used to come,
25:20we had to change the ending of that to make it work.
25:22It was a whole kind of the most reordering
25:26and restructuring we've ever done
25:27because of the like four very powerful
25:30in different ways performances in that episode.
25:32When was the Jimmy Ava scene gonna go?
25:35Right before the plane.
25:36So she was gonna say, hey, great job.
25:38She wouldn't have gotten late night without you.
25:39And Jimmy says, well, I didn't do it alone
25:42and is thinking about the impact Kayla had
25:45on this whole story for the season
25:46and then goes to the plane.
25:47And then at the end of that scene,
25:51when he gets her to say, yes, she'll stay
25:53and everyone claps because they got married
25:56or they're engaged.
25:57When they're about to leave,
25:58the attendant says, we've shut the doors,
26:00we're pulling back.
26:01So they were gonna be in Greece.
26:03He has no suitcase, his car's in a loading dock,
26:05but that changed too.
26:07So, you know, that was the one.
26:08I was concerned that they weren't gonna make it
26:10off the plane.
26:11Yeah, yeah.
26:12It was written that they weren't.
26:13You were.
26:14That was right.
26:15Thank you so much.
26:16This was wonderful.
26:17Thank you.
26:18I knew it would be fun.
26:19This was fun.
26:20It was for me.
26:21Great, it was for us.
26:22Yeah.
26:23Thank you so much.