CLNS Media's Taylor Kyles and Mike Kadlick breakdown the winners and losers from Patriots OTA and minicamp practices.
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SportsTranscript
00:00What's going on, everyone? Welcome back into another episode of the Patriots Daily Podcast
00:26here on the CLMS Media Network. He's Taylor Kyles, I'm Mike Kadlik. We're going to do
00:31a lot of Patriots today, mostly Patriots. We're going to grade the Patriots, or not
00:35really grade the Patriots offseason program, but rather give our winners and losers. So
00:39we'll get into all that, three winners, three losers from both of us. However, we're going
00:43to start with some other Boston sports news because Taylor, the Celtics just won the NBA
00:48Finals. 4-1 winners, Game 5 win over the Mavericks at TD Garden last night. We don't have to
00:55get into all the weeds on it, but I guess pretty cool to see another Boston sports team
01:00win a title. And you saw it with Tom Brady tweeted himself, another one for Boston. Banner
01:0518 for the Celtics, already going to go for 19. Drake May is in the house. Jawan Bentley
01:09is there. You mentioned it, but I'll kind of steal your thunder here on Drake May. That
01:15dude has already seen Tom Brady's full Hall of Fame induction ceremony and the Celtics
01:20winning NBA title within the span of his first two or three months in town. And he also got
01:24to see some Bruins playoff games as well. Now, granted, they lost it all, but he's kind
01:28of alluded to the fact that this is Titletown. So pretty cool stuff to see. I know you're
01:34not necessarily from here. I know you've kind of grabbed onto the Celtics. I don't want
01:38to call it bandwagon because it's not fake fandom, but you've kind of been following
01:42along a little bit now, getting used to it. So what did you make of the Celtics title
01:46win last night on Monday night?
01:49So funny enough, when I moved to Boston, so I went to boarding school here from seventh
01:54grade all throughout high school, I got here in 2009. So I actually missed the Celtics
02:00winning a championship. And then I think they played like the Lakers. I remember they were
02:03handing out like beat the Lakers shirts in my school. I never actually saw them win anything.
02:08So this was honestly very cool. Obviously I wasn't following basketball super close,
02:13like working in football. Personally, I'm one of those people where I kind of need a
02:16break from sports. Like I need to remember that other things exist just to like keep
02:20myself sane. But that was an awesome game to watch, man. I, I think Derek White is officially
02:25my favorite player on the Celtics. Anytime I watch that dude is just balling, like, you
02:30know, maybe not perfect, but the place he makes is someone who isn't, you know, a Tatum
02:34or a Brown, someone who you expect really be great all the time. And his ability to
02:39sometimes put the team on his back when there's maybe lows or something like that, or have
02:43his face smashed into the ground, chip a tooth, then smile at the camera and continue to ball
02:49out, play good defense. Like, I know somebody, I tweeted it out and someone mentioned like
02:54every one of these Boston teams has a guy like that, where Edelman was that same kind
02:58of guy where he's just tough SOB, maybe doesn't wow you physically or anything, but just does
03:03the things he has to do. So I, I'm officially on the Derek White bandwagon, even before
03:08like used to watch Celtics games. I was like, I like this Derek White guy, man. He's a,
03:12he's a dude. So I really thought that was fun. Tinguis Pinguis getting himself a ring,
03:17gutting it out throughout the playoffs. That was really cool to see as well. Dude, that
03:20Pritchard shot, I lost my mind. Like I was kind of like, I was having fun that happened.
03:26I jumped up like that losing the last game in Dallas worth it because seeing the entire
03:32crowd jump up at the same time after that shot, like I'm getting goosebumps right now.
03:38Um, I, that loss was a blessing in disguise, man. It was so awesome seeing them be able
03:42to win it at home. Tatum, holding him up, man. That was really, really cool. Glad I
03:47got to see it. I'm really happy for them. It's so much better than they want that they
03:50wanted at home. I'm now like, I don't care that they didn't sweep them. I'm glad they
03:54were able to do it in front of the garden. Because again, then you have like the, you
03:57know, um, a lot of people are like this, but me especially like, I love like the, all the
04:01postgame stuff, like listening to the, who gets the MVP and watching them celebrate and
04:05the crowd stay in the confetti and all that stuff.
04:07Right. And like, you don't get that when you win it on the road. Like, it's just so quiet.
04:11The fans don't stay, they don't cheer. It's kind of awkward. Like, like, like the Warriors
04:16had to do it here a couple of years ago and they won it at the TD garden floor. And it's,
04:19it's just not the same. And so I was, I was, look, look at going into game four. I was
04:25like, all right, let's just win it and sweep them. And, you know, let's go. And then they
04:27lose and it's like, okay, fine. Get to game five, win it in front of the garden. And you're
04:31right. You had a lot of special moments. Tatum was able to get another 30 point, uh, 11 assist
04:37game. I think he had eight rebounds as well, close to a triple double. He balled out. I
04:40thought he was going to make a little, um, I mean, I guess he did cause the voting was
04:44like seven to four, but I thought he was going to end up winning MVP. But I also don't
04:47really care that Jalen Brown did like, I love it. I think that's what makes this team awesome
04:51is that a, the voting was close, but B Tatum didn't care. Brown, we didn't care. Brown.
04:56The first thing he did was shout out Tatum. Like there's been this wedge that's tried
04:59to be driven between these guys. And it's just, it's not there. I'm sorry. They're both
05:03going to get paid. Well, even if people think that Tatum is sort of the better player over
05:08Brown because he's been more of a first team, all NBA player and whatnot, like Brown just
05:13won Eastern conference finals, MVP and finals MVP.
05:16He's just as important to this team as Tatum is. They're just a solid duo. And if they
05:20can keep that and put their egos aside, this team can win more than just one title. Joe
05:25Missoula is here for a long time as the coach, uh, Porzingis is under contract. I know you're
05:30going to see what happens with his injury, but they signed drew holiday to an extension
05:33as well. This season, like it, this isn't going to stop. Al Horford mentioned, someone
05:37mentioned this morning that wick Grossback said that, uh, Al Horford looks like he's
05:40going to stick around kind of surprised. I think he would retire, but regardless, this
05:45team's awesome and they can win more than just one title because they're that freaking
05:49good.
05:50So that being said, we now get into the opposite end of the spectrum of bosses, where we had
05:55a potential dynasty to a complete, almost rebuilt exactly from top to head and the Celtics
06:01did this years back. I mean, look, they traded Pierce and Garnett. They had to kind of go
06:05down. Uh, they obviously had the back to back number three picks from that trade. Now it's
06:09different because the, you know, the Celtics kind of, we're a middling team and 500 months,
06:13maybe only like one or two sub 500 years post Paul Pierce, but regardless, they'd be rebuilt
06:18it and the Patriots are going to have to do the same.
06:21And we've sort of seen the start of that over the off season program. There's been, um,
06:26obviously OTAs that we saw some off season workouts. Uh, they had their mini camp last
06:31week and now they are basically on spring break, summer break rather, uh, until training
06:36camp, which starts July 19th rookies report and July 23rd veterans report. So we got a
06:41little, a little over a month. So what we're going to do now is give our winners and losers
06:45from the off season program. Everything we saw in person, like I said, OTAs, mini camp,
06:50whatnot. Uh, we have three winners. It's three losers each. We're going to go back and forth
06:54and discuss it. So Taylor, we'll start with you. Who is your first winner for the Patriots
06:59this off season?
07:00This is pretty easy. It's Drake May. I mean, obviously it seemed like the veterans really
07:05took charge during OTAs and that was understandable. Even Gerard May would acknowledge when I asked
07:09him how exactly is, you know, what's the thought process behind this. He did mention there
07:13are no depth charts. I feel like that's kind of a half truth because there has to be some
07:17kind of system where, you know, when people are going to go in, but they did mix enough
07:20for you to understand why he would say that. But also the veterans were in there because,
07:25you know, we all want to talk about Drake May and Caden Wallace and all those things,
07:28but the rookies are one piece of the puzzle. This is an entire team where you need to make
07:33sure you're getting in quality reps, which is why we saw it was Jacoby Brissett, Bailey
07:37Zappi, Drake May, Joe Milton early on. Then right before OTAs ended, we saw Drake May
07:42seize that top job pretty, pretty unquestionably. And I think that was what we were hoping to
07:48see was that he's doing enough, not only on the field, you know, we weren't there for
07:52all the OTA practices, but also behind the scenes that encouraged the team to say, okay,
07:57he's not Jacoby Brissett, but he can still be good enough where he is operating the offense
08:01efficiently, you know, enough that we can put him over this guy who's been in the league
08:04for a long time. So obviously on the field, a lot of flashes and a lot of positive things,
08:10more good than bad, I'd say, because you saw the moments where the short pass and he just
08:14looked so instinctive and so smart and was able to put the ball where he needed to and
08:18get into tight windows. You saw some stuff downfield, not a ton, but I think also the
08:23red zone work where his ball placement really popped, you know, all those things were what
08:27you wanted to see from Drake May. Now, the short accuracy was spotty at times, the decision
08:31making and processing were shoddy at times. That was to be expected. You know, it's not
08:35even live bullets flying yet. We're still very early in his career and in his development,
08:40but I did think it was good to see that the team trusts him to kind of bump him up the
08:44non-existent depth chart and also that he was able to perform. And then even in that
08:48last practice we saw in mini camp where he did struggle with accuracy, had a pass to
08:53Jalen Polk that was behind him and got broken up and then finished on the high note with
08:56the entire early offseason program with that touchdown to Polk. So a lot of really encouraging
09:00signs. I think he left this thinking, you know, he's on the right track as the coaches
09:04told us as well.
09:05I'm with you. That's my first winner is Drake May. I think, like you said, it's fairly obvious.
09:09I mean, not only the fact that he did enough prior to training camp to basically pass Bailey
09:14Zappi already on the depth chart, but there's also already these rumors that are not really
09:20rumors, but speculation and guys kind of were putting it out there that he might start week
09:23one. Like he can beat Jacoby Brissett out. Like if there's going to be, you know, if
09:28he does X, Y, Z within the next six, seven weeks before week one starts, that there's
09:32no reason to not start him. And so that's a long way away from what we sort of saw in
09:37the, from the very beginning or what we kind of assumed too, was that their plan is to
09:40bring in a veteran, take May, know that he has a lot of room to grow.
09:44Gerard Mayo said he has a lot of room to grow, talking about the ceiling and floor at the
09:47owner's meetings a couple months ago, but he's already seemingly on a fast track, making
09:51leaps, you know, up the depth chart. And now people think that there's a chance he could
09:55even start week one. So, I mean, if there's anybody, it's got to be Drake man is the
09:59winner. He showed it, like we said, improvement in his footwork, the short area passing,
10:05like you mentioned, was great. He obviously has the arm to kind of excel in this league.
10:09We saw that on various occasions now, same thing.
10:12I'm kind of echoing what you said, though, like accuracy and some of that stuff is going
10:15to have to improve here and there, but he's 22 and he's a rookie and it's June.
10:20Like we, you know, it's, it's great that we see this and the stuff that's bad. It's
10:26not that bad because there's so much room to grow. So I'm totally with you. He is the
10:30number one winner. I think, you know, he has still a lot of room to grow, but it's, it's
10:34definitely a positive, not a negative from what we've seen from the rookie so far.
10:38And I'd even touch on the footwork mostly because I'm trying to stay away from mechanics
10:41talk at this point. Like we don't have, we don't know what they're doing and I've kind
10:45of gotten sick of hearing people, you know, nitpick it. So I've stayed away, but we did
10:49hear from him. He mentioned that the area that he thought he had the most improvement
10:52was being able to tie the footwork to the route concepts, which is so integral in the
10:56West coast offense and what Alex Van Pelt has been preaching. And he mentioned like
11:00the left foot up in the shotgun being under center things that he didn't do in college
11:04much if at all. So the fact that in his perspective, and you can tell he's a guy who holds himself
11:09accountable, he's putting in the work. I don't think he's going to say he made improvements.
11:13If you know, the coaches would probably disagree. He's probably, you know, some of that is feedback
11:17as well. So also a great sign to see something that we all thought was going to be a big
11:21issue for him. Can he get the footwork down as something that early on he is at least
11:25making strides.
11:26100%. I think again, major winner from Drake may no real negatives. Um, you know, a couple
11:30of like blips in practice here and there, but again, that's to be expected. So all is
11:34well on that front for the number of three overall picks so far. So that's our first
11:38winner. We'll get back to the rest of them and we'll do our losers. But first a quick
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12:51All right, Taylor, Drake May is the first winner. Who is your second winner of the Patriots
12:55offseason program? So it's going to be Caden Wallace for me. And I want to add the grain
13:01of salt that offensive line evaluation is almost impossible at this stage in the offseason.
13:07Now, you know, there's times where obviously guys make mistakes and if you have a quick
13:10loss in pass pro, that's not great, but they're also not in pads. I don't think any position
13:15group is at more of a disadvantage during this part of the offseason where you don't
13:18have pads and there isn't much physicality as the offensive line. So there wasn't a ton
13:23that we could glean in terms of how well guys perform necessarily. But I will say the fact
13:26that he was bumped up to the top rotation in the last day of mini camp says a lot. Now
13:32Gerard Mayo mentioned this team wants to find the best five guys to play up front during
13:37most of the offseason program. Early on, we were seeing Nicolette Rhett, kind of sometimes
13:41Michael Jordan at right guard with Mike and Winnie with right tackle. And then on the
13:45left side, obviously Chukwuma Okorafor and City. So have really been the rocks on that
13:49side. But then in the second to last day or actually in the first day of mini camp, it
13:53was supposed to be three days. It keeps throwing me off and it was only two. But in mini camp,
13:57the first day we saw them debut Mike and Winnie with right guard, his natural position in
14:02Caden Wallace at right tackle his natural position. At first it was with the second
14:06line. Then in that final day, we saw it bump up to the starting line. So Caden Wallace
14:10is someone we thought behind the scenes would have to also on the practice field, of course,
14:14would have to train at left tackle, you know, get it under his belt, probably wasn't going
14:18to play as a rookie unless he really stood out and beat out Chukwuma Okorafor. But I
14:22think Okorafor is someone that you if, you know, if Caden Wallace plays so well that
14:27he's objectively better than for sure, play him there. But I think Okorafor is a solid
14:31player. So I do think he's better than Nicolette Rhett, who's been a career backup and Chuk's
14:36whatever you want to say about him. He's been a starter. He was re-signed by the Steelers
14:39and he only got benched because he got caught mouthing off about Matt Canada, which frankly
14:43is fair. But I also understand why Mike Thompson was upset about it. So if you see Caden Wallace,
14:48not only, you know, having to maybe sit on the bench for a while, not only getting to
14:52play, but also at his natural spot. And he's going to cross train behind the scenes. They're
14:56still going to work him in left tackle. Like Mayo said, if you play left tackle, I want
15:00you to be able to play right tackle. You can play guard. I want you to be able to play
15:02center. Cross training is very important for these guys. So he's still going to get some
15:06of those reps at left tackle like he did in college, but I think it's going to be an easier
15:10transition for him to the NFL, especially as an older player who does have a lot of experience,
15:15took a big jump in his last season at Penn state to be able to kind of just get his fundamentals
15:20down at a spot that he already knows, get acclimated to the NFL game. And then maybe
15:24behind the scenes, you start getting a more comfortable left tackle. Cause it seems like
15:28considering lady Robinson and when you and city, so are all guys who were under contract for like
15:32three or more years. So it feels like based on that, he is going to be the future at left tackle
15:38that time will come, but for now I'm totally okay with him on the right side. So that's
15:42what I had as a winner. The fact that he went from someone that you thought was just going to
15:44develop behind the scenes and maybe play midway through the season to someone who looks like they
15:48could start and really solidify that offensive line in a place where I think everybody's pretty
15:53comfortable. Yeah. I'm with you on pretty much everything on Wallace and I'll, I'll sort of
15:57loop that into some more context. Um, for one of my losers that I've listed, obviously it's not
16:02Caden Wallace. We'll get into that a little later. Uh, but my second winner is wide receiver Jalen
16:07Polk, whose tires I have pumped on this podcast for the last five, six times. And I feel like
16:12I mentioned that every time because I can't keep his name out of my mouth. I'm obsessed with what
16:15he's shown. Um, he's just been consistent. He's shown up, he's, you know, developed a rapport
16:22with Drake may, you know, may and Polk, uh, worked out together on the field after practice,
16:27every single open session we saw. Um, he makes contested catches. He can get open. He has strong
16:35hands. He like it, the strong hands are the thing that, you know, stand out the most to me for him,
16:40because we've seen guys in this, in this system. And I use Taekwon Thornton as the example. And
16:44I'm sorry for Taekwon. We'll probably talk about him later too, but, uh, there there's times where
16:48he's just inconsistent. And like, there's been times during the seasons, you know,
16:52last couple of years where like Mack Jones will throw him a perfect ball and it would just fall
16:56through his hands. It's like, that's the kind of stuff that can't happen. And that especially,
16:59you know, as the 51st overall pick or whatever he was a couple of years ago. And so Jalen Polk,
17:03uh, 37th overall pick, I thought he had a great camp, um, or a great, a great off season program.
17:08There's really nothing bad to take away from it. And now the caveat I'll add to this is that
17:15this has happened with Taekwon Thornton in the past, where when he came in as a rookie,
17:18he shined in, in the OTAs and me camp and was sensational. And then he put the pads on and
17:23it was a little bit different. Now that the one, you know, the thing that I have confidence in,
17:27in Polk is something that, you know, I've taken a little bit from you that you've mentioned a lot
17:32is that one of his best traits is a blocker. So like, he wants to put the pads on, he wants to
17:36get out there and mall guys and, you know, throw a guy five yards off the line of scrimmage and
17:40then come back later on the next drive and run a slant and score for a touchdown. So like that's
17:44his game. So I'm looking forward to him even more this spring or this summer, rather, um, looking
17:49to, you know, looking forward to see what happens in that wide receiver room. But everything we saw
17:53from him, uh, was mostly, you know, second team, second X behind some of those guys, but he's,
17:57you know, he got in the mix. He wasn't, um, just behind all the starters either. He was kind of
18:01in there a lot and, uh, made a couple of good plays towards the end of, uh, towards the end of
18:05camp in that red zone period that we talked about with jerk May. So Jalen Polk, uh, is my second
18:09winner. Taylor, who is your third winner of the Patriots offseason program? So my third winner,
18:14I don't want to pump him up too much, but he's just somebody that surprised me. And that's jail
18:18surprised me. That's Jalen Hawkins, the former charger and Falcon. He was someone where when he
18:24was signed, I figured he was going to be more of like an Adrian Phillips type, or he's really just
18:27going to play special teams for you. And that's, you know, that's still a very valuable role and
18:31someone who could give you depth at safety, but you don't really want them on the field.
18:35Instead, it seemed like he's taken on some of Marty Mop. Who's old responsibility as that
18:39third safety in their big nickel packages. So when I say big nickel, that's three safeties.
18:44I think the best combination that the Patriots have there is when they can use Duggar in the
18:49box, which real peppers as that kind of big slot corner where he and Annapurna Jennings just had a
18:53ton of success blitzing against the run. I think that's where they thrive, but because the real
18:57peppers was their best deep safety, he couldn't always be in that alignment. He did a lot, but
19:02not as much as maybe they would have wanted. Now, it seems like Jalen Hawkins has really been
19:07that deep safety in those packages, which allows again, peppers and Duggar to play where they're
19:11better, which closer to the line of scrimmage. Then Marty Mop, who's been more of like a dime
19:15linebacker, which I know will make Patriots fans very happy because everyone's convinced he's a
19:19linebacker, which I don't think he is just a linebacker, but I understand that one of his
19:23best traits is his ability to play near the line of scrimmage. So I'm all for that. But the fact
19:27that Jalen Hawkins is someone who seems to have claimed a significant role on this team so early
19:32and someone that wasn't really on anybody's radar, at least not that I think that definitely stood
19:36out for me. It wasn't like he was making a ton of plays and, you know, as a deep safety, unless you're
19:40a really rangy ball hawk type, which I'm not sure he is, you're not really going to stand out. But
19:45really the important thing for me was that, Hey, this is a guy who's coming onto the team, you know,
19:49a group that already has a lot of chemistry and he's maybe taking some snaps from Marty Mop, who
19:54I think it's fair to assume they want to get as many reps as possible as a talented young player.
19:59It'll be interesting to see how that develops, but I'll put Jalen Hawkins in there and someone
20:03who saw way more of the field than I ever expected. 100%. He was, he was my number four
20:08winner. My other one is in the defensive backfield as well. I'll get to that in a second,
20:11but I'm with you on Hawkins because it's someone who, like you said, we didn't expect much from
20:16him. And so to see him in the mix at that deep safety position will allow the Patriots to use
20:20peppers in a way that they would probably rather use him than just the deep safety look that, you
20:25know, we saw him a lot in last year, uh, that even he said, like he tweeted the video of him,
20:31uh, in the Browns backfielder, the defensive backfield, he was like 50 yards off the line of
20:35scrimmage was like, why, why the hell did they play me this deep? Like that's not what I'm made
20:38for. Crazy. That should never happen unless you're playing prevent. That was just stupid,
20:44especially for a guy like him. But so, yeah, that's, uh, I'm with you on Jalen Hawkins, but
20:47my third, uh, is Alex Austin, the other cornerback opposite Christian Gonzalez.
20:52Um, I was wary of that group of guys that, you know, him and Bolden and, um,
20:58Marco Wilson, because they're just so young and they're inexperienced. And I know I was,
21:04you know what, I think one of the main reasons why he's a winner is because they've yet to go
21:08out and sign Stefan Gilmore. They're not panicking on the other side because they know they have a
21:12guy like him who looks like he can actually be solid and shut it down on the other side.
21:16He took almost all, he was basically their, their second corner opposite Christian Gonzalez
21:19for the entirety of minicamp and OTAs. Marco Wilson is able to mix in Bolden a little bit
21:23more on the slot, but it looks like Alex Austin is ready to sort of grab, grab hold of the outside
21:28corner role. Um, which is huge. And he made a ton of plays. He, you know, he's, he's consistent.
21:33He's a bit of a ball Hawk. Um, I liked that. You mentioned that he kind of has like the Jack
21:38Jones attitude towards him on the field, obviously where, you know, always that caveat. Yeah, right.
21:43I know it's too bad. He's, he's not the Stefan Gilmore, uh, Christian Gonzalez mold, but he is
21:49the, the, the Jack Jones, Richard Sherman mold where he, and maybe not as, um, as vocal as those
21:55kinds of guys, but, uh, he has a swagger about him and he just looks good. He really does. He
21:59looks solid and it gives me confidence that they're, they're ready to do that. And then
22:03the trickle down effect is massive where Jonathan Jones can play in the slot. You don't have to rely
22:06as much on, um, you know, a guy like Marcus Jones, who we've talked about on the show a lot,
22:10who were kind of, uh, not a hundred percent sold on as a, you know, just, you know, in every
22:15down defensive back. So, uh, the trickle down effect on that is massive. So I think that Alex
22:19Austin is really starting to, uh, cement himself a role on this team. So Taylor's three winners,
22:24Drake may Caden Wallace, Jalen Hawkins, my three are Drake may Jalen Polk and Alex Austin. We will
22:31get to our losers, uh, and then wrap this show up in a few minutes, but first let's listen to
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24:04All right. The losers. Sad to say, it's tough to say like that. Sometimes, you know,
24:08we just go like, you know, ups and downs or whatever, but it's, it's the way you got to
24:12talk about it. These guys aren't losers. They just had a tough, had a little, uh,
24:16little tough off season. So Taylor, who is your first loser of the Patriots offseason program?
24:21First is Juju Smith-Schuster. Um, I already thought it was an uphill battle for him to make
24:25this team. He told us he was a hundred percent, which I feel like briefly we thought maybe he
24:30really was the more we've seen. I just don't see if that's the case, then that's unfortunate for
24:36his career because he hasn't looked explosive. Um, kind of looks similar to last season. If I'm
24:41being totally honest, it doesn't seem like he's really going through full speed drills very often
24:45or going through drills, full speed. Um, spent a lot of time with Tyler Hughes kind of separately,
24:50which it's hard to think that isn't injury related or there's some level of catch up going on. And
24:55he hasn't really stood out during team drills. You know, I think he's caught a couple of short
24:59passes, but the fact that I don't really have much memory of him doing anything kind of,
25:03he has like one decent period on one day, I remember. And that was pretty much the day we
25:09spoke to him. I think so. Yeah, actually. Yeah. So, and then nothing since then. So yeah, I mean,
25:14he, the team has enough money to eat whatever dead cap is going to come from the really bad deal.
25:20They signed him to last season. Um, yeah, there's a lot of young talent on this team,
25:24especially, you know, you have like Keisha and booty who didn't do enough to really be a winner,
25:27but he stood out in a way that Juju hasn't, you know, Taekwon hasn't. Um, so yeah, I, I have to
25:33say Juju, I, it stinks, you know, given the contract and he seems like a decent guy. You want
25:39to see him succeed, but I just haven't seen anything to make me think that he is a legitimate
25:44shot at making this team. Yeah. I I'm with you on that. Uh, my first loser, however,
25:48is someone who didn't even see the field. Uh, and it's Cole strange because look, I just, it's,
25:54it's tough to say because again, he hasn't really had a chance to go out there and play,
25:58but the, what they've done on the offensive line is in his absence.
26:03They're pretty much ready to kind of, you know, move on without him. It kind of seems like,
26:06like city. So it's going to be their left guard. Um, now they're bumping on when,
26:10who inside the right guard and trying to see what happens with kid and Wallace there. So
26:14when he gets healthy, is he even going to have a chance to play? That's kind of the thing I wonder.
26:19And it's, you know, the, I guess the saying has sometimes been, you can't lose your job to injury.
26:24We obviously know that that's not true around here. We saw that in 2001, we've seen that,
26:28you know, a bunch of times that that was sort of the, the, the old fashioned saying, and that
26:32doesn't happen anymore. If you're, if you lose, I mean, we saw it with the 49ers and the Kaepernick
26:37thing with, uh, with Alex Smith. Like if look, exactly. Like if you're hurt and you can't play
26:42and somebody comes in and is better than you, sorry, dude. Like that's just kind of what
26:46happens. So, um, look, maybe, maybe the offensive line isn't as good as, or not even isn't as good,
26:53but isn't consistent. Like we may think it will be, um, when he comes back and he can maybe get
26:58a shot to, to grab one of those, you know, guard spots right now. But as far as I can tell,
27:02especially with, again, putting on when, who back to the right guard position,
27:07if on what it was that right guard, Kate and Wallace, a young kids that right tackle,
27:10and they're both playing well and strange comes back and city. So as the left guard,
27:15they're not going to try and like bump city out and Kate. And like, it's just,
27:18there's too many moving parts that Cole strange isn't currently a part of for me to say that
27:23he has a consistent spot on this offensive line. So to me, he's unfortunately a loser early off
27:28season. I agree. And then you don't want to, like you said, you don't want to disrupt the
27:31chemistry if it's already there and he's going to miss a big hump. So yeah, if it ain't broke,
27:35don't fix it, which sucks. Cause I think anybody who covers the Patriots, I think is a fan of
27:40strange. He is an outstanding person. He holds himself accountable, very humble guy,
27:45very hard on himself. I will tell you, like I've tried to get the benefit of the doubt in
27:48conversations where I'm trying to figure out what's going on and he comes down on himself
27:52very hard. So it sucks to, you know, to know the perception of him outside is that he's not a good
27:57player. Cause I don't think that's true. I think you've seen towards the end of both the last two
28:01seasons, he does, he can put it together and play some good ball, but you don't, it is what it is.
28:06Sometimes injuries suck injuries. Yeah. Yeah. It's tough. All right. Uh, that's number one.
28:10Taylor, who is your second loser? Another receiver type one Thornton. Obviously we already kind of
28:15touched on it briefly and I'm going to keep this one short because it's the same thing that it's
28:19always is with type one. He has a good day. Then you don't really hear about him and you're hoping
28:24he'll pop up back on the radar. And then he misses time. We don't know why he missed time to be fair.
28:28Maybe it's not due to injury, but he still did miss time. And then Kingstown booty capitalized
28:33on that with a day that none of us saw coming. He had his best day at camp. So even if it was an
28:38excused absence, whatever the reason was, it didn't see type one. It created an opportunity
28:42for somebody else to take his job. And for someone, the team is clearly trying to give
28:46him a big role because he was the starting X receiver until the day he missed. I think they're
28:50really like, Hey, come on, type one. Like he got to give us something. He has unique skillset and
28:54that he does have that home run speed that they've lacked. No one else is as fast as him.
28:59Jalen regular is close, but he's super inconsistent as well. And I just don't think
29:02he has the same ceiling as Taekwon. It's just disappointing, man. I want to root for the guy.
29:08He put on obviously more weight and maybe in training camp that will help him, but we only
29:13had the one good day to really hang our head on. And you had to take it off pretty quickly. Once
29:17it was like, Oh, it's been days and we haven't really seen anything from him. I think he had
29:21a drop as well. Uh, one day on a wide open target, stuff like that. We were just like, dude,
29:28you got to be consistent and available. Once again, he has not been those things.
29:32It's just really disappointing. Yeah, totally. I'm with you. He's, uh,
29:35he's right on the cusp for me. I didn't, I didn't include him. We tried to not do some, uh, uh,
29:41repeats or what have you between the two of us, but he, he would make it on my shortlist as well.
29:45Again, just stuff where we've seen it so many times, so many time again, where even when he did
29:51have the one good day, it's like, well, he may come down and disappoint us eventually. And you're
29:55right. It is too bad because it's a guy who, I mean, frankly, they spent a lot of draft capital
29:58on with, you know, a pick in the fifties and it just hasn't panned out to anything. So, uh, maybe
30:03things change in training camp, but right now I'm with your Taekwondo is not, uh, by any means a
30:08winner of the off season program. But my number two, uh, loser is Chad Ryland. It's just, it's
30:15just too inconsistent for him as a kicker and they bring in Joey sly. And every time they go up
30:21together, Chad always goes first, but Joey sly makes all the kicks and Chad misses one, maybe
30:26two. And now luckily for him, the Patriots missed out on the Jake Bates train. The, the UFL kicker
30:32signed with, uh, with the lions this week. So, uh, there's not many options out there, but I mean,
30:38look, if, if you continue through training camp and Joey clock, Joey sly, excuse me, is kicking
30:44better than Chad Ryland. I don't think there's many, much of a reason to, to not keep sly and
30:49get rid of Chad Ryland. I mean, it's, you gotta, you gotta keep the best players here and look,
30:54yeah, you, you whiffed on a fourth round pick. First of all, this front office and coaching
30:59staff shouldn't necessarily be tied to him because they didn't really make the pick that was run by
31:02Belichick. I know there's a lot of similar guys in there and things like that, but look, it's that
31:07simple. You need, you need to make kicks in this league and Chad Ryland has not done it consistently
31:11enough. So, um, he has some work to do in training camp now. Could they bring in another kicker?
31:18Perhaps could they stick with Joey sly? We'll see. But I think they, whether it's sly or whether
31:23it's somebody else, they need to continue to kind of light a fire under his ass to make it known
31:27that, look, this is not even close to your job right now. And I think he knows that he, he seems
31:31pretty self-aware every time we speak to him. Uh, he was last year, a lot, he holds himself
31:35accountable. So, and you know, does that matter? I guess it's, it's at least he's not, you know,
31:40confident for no reason or what have you, but yeah, he, uh, it just hasn't been, hasn't been
31:45good enough. And so, uh, he really needs to make a push in training camp in order to frankly,
31:49make the roster in my opinion. Totally agree. And I mean, his field goal conversion rate last
31:53season was worse than college kickers, right? At least Joey slides been in the NFL. He may not be
31:58great, but he's an NFL kicker and Chad Ryland has not proved to be that yet. And we've mentioned
32:03other shows where if he ever were to make all of his field goals, it would be a surprise.
32:08Cause I don't think he's done it since sometime last year in training camp, but I couldn't tell
32:12you when that was, hasn't happened this season, another guy where you're rooting for them and you
32:17want to see this person succeed, but you got to prove it on the field. And he just hasn't done
32:22that. A hundred percent. All right. Uh, number three, final loser. Uh, I believe we both have
32:26the same guy here, but I'll let you tee it off first. Uh, third loser of the Patriots
32:30offseason program. Taylor Bailey's happy. The only way I saw him making this team was if Drake May
32:36wasn't ready and they were like, you know what? We just don't want to rush him out there. Let's
32:40keep Bailey because we got you Kobe. If he, God forbid gets hurt, then we bring in, you know,
32:44Bailey and he's someone who has NFL experience and can still run the offense. But Drake,
32:49they took his job pretty fast. I, you know, I know the Patriots are going to carry four
32:54quarterbacks into a training camp. Maybe that's so when they do have the third group out there,
32:58it runs more efficiently than maybe Joe Milton were in there. Cause I think it's,
33:02I don't think anybody's going to argue Milton is purely a developmental prospect at this point.
33:06Um, but at the same time, once roster cuts come, there's no reason for you to keep Bailey's happy.
33:11If Drake made it their second quarterback, like that tells you, you are getting him reps. You
33:15think he can still run the offense. And again, I still understand the argument of don't put him
33:19out there too soon, but they're showing you that, you know, he's doing what he needs to do. He's
33:23earned this. So Zappy hasn't even been bad. He's had bad days. I wouldn't say he's been bad overall.
33:29I think he's been solid, but for the most part, when he's with the third group, there's not,
33:34you know, I don't really write about it much. I don't report on it much. Cause I mean, you're
33:38going against depth players and I feel like the takeaways, especially because he's not very
33:41aggressive, at least last season in training camp, we did see him take some chances and take some
33:46shots. We haven't really seen that granted with the whole offense. And there's been a lot of low
33:50red zone work. So I want to give him that caveat, but you know, there just hasn't been a lot to say
33:55in his favor, given the circumstances. So I, Bailey's happy. He's got to be on there. Cause
34:00he may be out of a job, uh, come late August or September. I got my month.
34:06Late August, early September. You're right. And I'm with you. He's my third loser too. I think
34:09there's really, there's no path for him to make the team right now, like at all. And the only path
34:14you're right. And I'll, I'll just kind of repeat what you said was if they wanted to keep three
34:18quarterbacks, may wasn't ready, not ready enough where you even want him to be your backup, where
34:23you cut bait with Joe Milton. Hopefully you get him back on the practice squad.
34:26Those are your three quarterbacks. Drake may is the inactive guy until he's ready. And then you
34:32kind of go from there. But the fact that he already passed Abby right now, um, it's not
34:37a competition anymore. I don't, in my opinion, anyway, between may and Zabby for the backup job.
34:42Now it's the competition between may and Milton for the third role. And there's not really many
34:48pros that Zabby brings to the table to be that guy over Joe Milton. I mean, it's, uh, and we
34:54have Alex Barth popping in to kind of ruin our, our podcast and we'll get them in here right away.
34:58And we'll tell them what we're talking about. And we'll ask, Oh, here's Brian. Let's go.
35:02There we go. Just returning. Let's do it. All right. Each of you guys give us your
35:08winner and your loser from Manningham and OTAs. Yes. Oh, um, winner was probably,
35:17I mean, has it not Drake may like he just, he showed tremendous growth and all right,
35:21since you both said Drake may, um, I will say, I'll say Alex Austin. Okay. I mean,
35:27kind of under the radar, but this was a guy that we were talking about as maybe a bubble player.
35:31And I think we came away from camp thinking they may have a potential starter long way to go there,
35:35but hard to hard to expect him, Alex Austin to do any more than he did with the opportunities
35:41he got this spring. Yeah. Brian winner. I was going to say Drake may, and then I was between
35:47Alex Austin and someone else. So I'll go someone else. And I'll say DeMario Douglas. He was
35:54best and most consistent wide receiver. Uh, throughout the spring, we had all off season
35:58talking about, are they going to get T Higgins, Brandon Iuke. And then it was all on Jalen Polk
36:02and Jayvon Baker. And then DeMario Douglas came out and reminded everyone that he's still here.
36:07He had an awesome, awesome, uh, OTAs and mini camp there. Love it. All right. We didn't get
36:13to it. So I'm glad you guys popped in. We did three winners, three losers. We had mentioned
36:21Austin. We didn't get to a DeMario. So who was the third? If it wasn't, if it was may
36:25Austin, Jalen Hawkins, because like he actually, and I had Jalen Polk
36:32biggest loser. I mean, I don't want to say Caden Wallace, cause it's not his fault, but like
36:40the fact that they, I'd say the, the Caleb Caden Wallace experiment, the fact that draft night,
36:46they're talking about how they think he's a left tackle. And now it looks like they're
36:49ready to move them to right. They're ready to move Michael Wenu back into guard.
36:52That's just, you know, didn't I I'd like to see them try a little more than that. So it's not
36:57Caden Wallace's fault, but we have a, I mean, I was tempted to say Drake may cause like, is he,
37:02because it's unfortunate for him that the offensive line in front of him is unsettled.
37:06How would you feel? How, how would you feel if you find out that Caden Wallace was one of
37:10Taylor's winners? I mean, I know he like I, well, Caden Wallace himself didn't perform poorly. So
37:17like I get that it's, it's more just the situation than anything else. Like, again, I would honestly
37:22say Drake may like, cause it's unfortunate for him and really all the quarterbacks. And we saw
37:27it in those last couple of practices that the offensive line is still very much a work in
37:32progress at this point. Yeah. So, okay. Just real quick, we will get you, Brian, just for
37:37mind of the spectrum, just so you understand it. I was saying he was a winner one, cause I just
37:41don't put a lot of stock in offensive line performance when there's no, he's already a
37:44huge disadvantage. My thought process was obviously he's still going to cross train behind
37:49the scenes at left tackle, but I think choose is a starting caliber player city, obviously a guy
37:54who's really promising. I like the left side, but then I see it more as you don't put Nick
37:58Levrett on the field, who was a career backup. Instead you move Mike and when you back to his
38:02natural spot and you give Caden Wallace live reps against NFL competition, where it's a bit of an
38:07easier learning curve. Cause he's not just acclimating to the NFL and switching sides.
38:12He's actually getting to understand based on, you know, technique he already has or is familiar with
38:16what it's like to go up against those kinds of guys. And again, still is getting cross-trained.
38:21I thought he was a winner really. Cause he's going to be getting reps.
38:23And he's going to be fine. I I'll I'll I'm with you there. Like he's a winner. Cause he's playing
38:27his natural position. All right, let me do this. Then I'll, I'll completely backtrack.
38:30Um, Taekwon Thornton. Yep. Didn't did, did not get a ton of reps. Didn't finish the week.
38:38We've seen this story before. So I'll say I'll change my answer. Taekwon Thornton.
38:41Yep. All right, Brian, who's yours? Uh, I'll go Chad Ryland. It just wasn't good.
38:48Wow. I don't have the numbers in front of me. Uh, but 15 to 19.
38:54Yeah. Every, basically every session he missed one. So he missed it. Yeah. He missed one or two.
38:59Every, uh, every practice, even the makes weren't pretty. And then like Joey slide,
39:04the makes weren't pretty, but he made every kick. He was eight for eight. So Chad Ryland. Yep.
39:11All right. That's it. All right. Thanks for having us. Thanks for coming on this new Patriots
39:16up now. Check it out. Yeah. Go check it. All right. See you guys.
39:24All right. So yeah, we need to do these. Yeah. For, for contacts. So anyone who is,
39:30which I don't think anyone's just a Pat's daily listener, not a Patriots beat listener. Patriots
39:34beat was live about an hour before we started pre-recording here. Uh, and we accidentally
39:38jumped into their room and still, then we went on their show for a few minutes. So
39:41they returned the favor. So, uh, yeah, but that, that we were at just Bailey's happy.
39:47The fact that he is the, uh, he is one of the losers. He doesn't really have a,
39:50a clear path on this roster. Again, it's between him and Milton right now for that third spot.
39:55And the, the argument is clearly, you know, go with the developmental guy.
40:00Neither one is going to really play anywhere. So you might as well go with
40:04Joe Milton. Who's also cheaper because, um, he's on a rookie deal and Bailey's at, or they're both
40:08on rookie deals, but Zappy is a fourth rounder versus six around a year, you know, all that
40:12stuff. So go with Milton and see what you got. So yeah, Bailey's happy is, uh, one of the three
40:16losers for sure. Yeah. Like in my roster projection, which I pushed back a day, the Celtics
40:20one, I was like, I'm not going to drop this while CONS is all Celtics. I'm going to give them their
40:24day. So I'm going to release it Wednesday morning, but I did mention that there's more value in Joe
40:29Milton, who, like you said, is developmental, has a ton of talent. I think it's kind of like
40:33a Malik Cunningham situation where you could risk trying to sneak them out of the practice squad.
40:37We saw Cunningham ended up getting signed. So I just think if you are trying to develop someone
40:42who's going to be a trade ship, and again, Milton is just such a rare talent, especially for a guy
40:47who got in the sixth round, usually sixth rounders are guys where they may be developmental, but
40:51you're really only thinking they're going to be like, okay, backups. And maybe that is Milton
40:55ceiling, but he also was a better athlete and has better arm talent than you really see at that,
40:59uh, stage of the draft. So I think it makes much more sense to not risk exposing him to waivers or
41:05the practice squad, keep him in toes, your third quarterback, developmental, never going to be
41:10active, but at least as emergency third quarterback who gives you some athleticism, then Bailey's
41:14happy who doesn't give you any more of a ceiling. And, you know, I also just think you want to kind
41:19of refresh in that room if you can get some new blood in there. So yeah, I just don't think it
41:23makes much sense to keep Bailey's happy. Yep. I am totally with you. So that's going to do it for
41:27our winners and losers from the Patriots offseason program here on Patriots daily. We'll be back
41:32again tomorrow, 5 PM to go through Taylor's roster projection. Uh, we'll, we'll go through
41:38each and every position group. I'll give my feedback. We'll kind of talk about, you know,
41:41his thoughts and things like that. And, uh, again, I'll, I'll give some, uh, some of my thoughts on
41:45that as well. So make sure you keep it locked in here on Patriots press pass, uh, follow us
41:49on Twitter. He's at T Kyle's 39. I am at my Catholic got plenty to do on the CLNS channels
41:55and on the website as well, even though we do have six weeks roughly until training camp.
41:59So make sure you keep it locked in on Pat on press pass and CLS media.com until next time,
42:04take care of yourselves, take care of each other. And we'll see you next time.