30 Year Old Virgin! Freedomain Call In

Stefan Molyneux

In this episode, I explore a caller's struggles with relationships and intimacy rooted in their upbringing in an evangelical Christian household. We delve into their challenges seeking therapy for dating anxiety and discuss the importance of pursuing meaningful connections and developing a clear dating strategy. Emphasizing self-confidence and self-value, we navigate the impact of childhood experiences on dating behaviors and the significance of self-reflection in building successful relationships. Addressing parenting styles and familial dynamics, we examine the effects of fear-based teachings and emphasize the need for open conversations to foster honesty and personal growth. Encouraging the caller to confront past issues with parents and prioritize well-being, we highlight the importance of embracing honesty for future relationships.  Join the PREMIUM philosophy community on the web for free!  NOW AVAILABLE FOR SUBSCRIBERS: MY NEW BOOK 'PEACEFUL PARENTING' - AND THE INTERACTIVE PEACEFUL PARENTING AI AND AUDIOBOOK!  Also get the Truth About the French Revolution, the interactive multi-lingual philosophy AI trained on thousands of hours of my material, private livestreams, premium call in shows, the 22 Part History of Philosophers series and much more!  See you soon!  https://freedomain.locals.com/support/promo/UPB2022

Transcript

00:00:00 Hey, Stefan

00:00:02 I've been stuck in about the same place with respect to relationships and intimacy for as long as I can remember

00:00:07 To give you some background. I grew up in an evangelical Christian household where relationships sex and intimacy

00:00:14 Were an awkward subject for both of my parents. I

00:00:16 Didn't receive any meaningful guidance for them on how to attract slash relate to women and I ended up believing that the one for me

00:00:23 Would just sort of fall into my lap organically someday long story short

00:00:27 I developed a crippling anxiety around talking to women and didn't go on a single date until I sought out therapy in college at age

00:00:33 19

00:00:35 This led to a handful of dates at age 19 to 20 and one makeout session

00:00:39 Which is to this day the only intimacy I've experienced with a woman

00:00:42 I'm going from my hometown around that time and failed to carry forward on the moments my gain in therapy

00:00:49 Only going on one date in the past eight years

00:00:51 I

00:00:52 Went to different therapists off and on during my 20s and finally found one that I clicked with two years ago

00:00:56 Which has helped me overcome a lot of my anxiety around carrying on conversations with women

00:01:00 When an opportunity arises, I don't find it too difficult to carry on a conversation and get a phone number

00:01:05 But it hasn't led to any more dates so far on the surface. I have a lot of the traits that wouldn't find attractive

00:01:11 I'm tall and well-built handsome enough self-employed in the lucrative career that I love above average intelligence and have plenty of hobbies

00:01:18 To me the fact that I haven't had any success in finding

00:01:21 Relationships or even going on dates means they don't have sufficient

00:01:24 Opportunities and or that there's something below the surface level that would repel women even if I had plenty of opportunities

00:01:30 I'm just a bit lost on how to proceed from here, especially over the last couple of years

00:01:35 I've started to feel like I'm on a hamster wheel working just so I can keep working

00:01:39 It's embarrassing to be almost a 30 year old virgin with essentially no dating history

00:01:44 And I know that won't get worse as time goes on

00:01:46 Just writing that last sentence makes me feel a bit panicked

00:01:51 You

00:01:52 Yeah, that's about it. Yeah, it's not a not a bad time to panic. I I

00:01:56 Can understand that and I can I can sympathize with that and I'm sure we can do some

00:02:01 Useful stuff. So do you want to start with childhood? Do you want to how long have you been listening to to what I do? Oh

00:02:08 I would say for the last four

00:02:13 Ish years give or take okay, so we can I am sure we can move it a fairly fast clip. So

00:02:20 Do you want to talk about childhood? You want to talk about the present or strategies to overcome or what's what's your pleasure?

00:02:27 Um

00:02:31 strategies to overcome I think I don't want to be too presumptuous, but I I've talked a lot about

00:02:37 childhood with therapists and

00:02:40 I don't want to say there's like that that couldn't be fruitful because I think it could be but

00:02:45 Maybe strategies is a better place to start. Okay, and how about you want me to be?

00:02:52 Late on okay. Okay, so to me

00:03:00 What I don't mean to use the term in cell as as a slur

00:03:05 But it's technically true that you're involuntarily celibate. Is that right?

00:03:10 Yes, okay

00:03:12 So the in-cell thing in general comes from a combination of rage and selfishness

00:03:20 So what else sort of say about that and you know, if it doesn't fit your experience, of course we can

00:03:27 Utterly toss it to one side

00:03:30 And I I said I don't mean to make it about me

00:03:34 But I think since you know my work now if you sort of know the stuff that I'm capable of

00:03:39 How would you like what would be my motives for withholding?

00:03:42 my skills from the world, why would I

00:03:45 Withhold my skills from the world. What would be my incentive to do that?

00:03:50 What would be your incentive to withhold your skills from the world's yeah like it

00:03:57 You know, I'm pretty this kind of stuff and never had to say I'm never doing any philosophy

00:04:02 I'm not talking to people about problems like, you know, I'm withholding

00:04:05 My skills from the world. What would be my motive for doing that?

00:04:10 Um

00:04:12 Well, I guess like if you thought it was going to lead to some kind of evil in the world

00:04:18 Well, no, but I wouldn't be a very good philosopher

00:04:21 If I wouldn't be a good philosopher if what I did would lead to evil in the world

00:04:26 I also wouldn't be a good philosopher

00:04:28 Sure

00:04:28 if I

00:04:29 Thought that doing good would lead to evil in the world because then I would be making a mistake that piece like saying I'm a

00:04:34 Good doctor and all of my patients die. It's like no. No, that's right. That's right

00:04:38 So what else?

00:04:40 Sorry, maybe I missed the point of question why if I have all these skills and

00:04:46 Abilities, what would be my incentive to selfishness? Right? Well, I think it would be sort of selfish and and that selfishness would be like

00:04:55 You know damn the world. I'm not gonna do anything in the world. I'm not gonna help the world

00:04:59 The world was too mean to me. I'm not gonna be nice back, you know, there'd be a whole bunch of stuff going on in my

00:05:04 head

00:05:06 That would end up with me withholding

00:05:08 The

00:05:12 Skills and abilities that I have to help the world I would end up withholding it

00:05:16 From the world because I would be angry at the world. I mean more than angry

00:05:22 It would be kind of to sort of murder my own

00:05:24 abilities

00:05:27 Would be such an act of sabotage that it would only come out of a kind of rage and

00:05:32 Also be kind of selfish like if I have the ability

00:05:35 To help people and I just won't do it

00:05:38 You know

00:05:39 There would be a certain amount of selfishness like I prefer my rage and resentment over

00:05:44 Actually helping the world if that makes any sense and there would also be a kind of hypocrisy, right?

00:05:49 So if I would be angry at the world and say well the world didn't help me when I was a kid

00:05:55 So damn it. I'm not gonna help the world either

00:05:58 well

00:06:00 That would be hypocritical because I'd be angry that the world didn't help me and in return I wouldn't help the world

00:06:07 So then I I could completely understand what may maybe people didn't help me for the same reason that I'm not helping the world

00:06:13 They're angry frustrated. They're selfish. And and so if I'm not helping people, I can't complain about people not helping me if that makes sense

00:06:21 Yeah, okay, okay, so obviously this is not about me

00:06:27 So what are the parallels here?

00:06:29 Sorry, sorry, I think that just went over my head no problem somehow no problem. Okay. Do you have

00:06:46 Good things to offer a woman and your children

00:06:57 Yeah, I think so you think so

00:07:00 I mean you've known 12 years as an adult and 30 years on the planet

00:07:08 Do you have good things to offer a wife and children

00:07:15 Yeah, sure, okay, so let's explore the doubt here

00:07:26 I mean, I understand the doubt is that nobody's taking you up on your quote offer so to speak

00:07:30 But I don't think you've made many offers, right? I

00:07:32 Mean, I'm sorry. I was really struck when you said like I talked to women, but it doesn't translate into dates

00:07:39 Well, yeah, I mean to women doesn't translate into dates

00:07:46 But yeah, I mean, you know talking to women doesn't translate into dates. I I talked to the woman at the

00:07:54 Grocery store when I could get my groceries and we exchanged some pleasantries

00:07:58 But that doesn't lead to dates cuz why cuz I haven't asked her out

00:08:02 Right because I'm happily married right so I'm not sure what you mean like how do things translate to dates

00:08:10 Don't you just have to ask someone out?

00:08:12 Yeah, yeah, oh yeah

00:08:16 Okay, so how many I have done that? Yeah. So I mean how many women have you asked out?

00:08:22 Like

00:08:24 Recently or

00:08:27 in my entire life, I

00:08:30 really if I

00:08:32 Let's not get overly complicated here. I don't mind which answer it is or both

00:08:37 It's fine. I

00:08:39 mean recently recently like

00:08:42 one or two like in the last

00:08:44 Three to four months I would say okay. And what about over the course of your life?

00:08:51 um

00:08:53 Maybe 10 or 15 something like that. Okay, and you've had one take it right which was the necking session in your teens

00:09:02 Is that right?

00:09:04 No, no, I've had I've had probably

00:09:07 four or five dates maybe

00:09:11 Okay, and what's happened with those dates and if there are any general patterns?

00:09:17 They just just haven't haven't gone anywhere no, no, no, don't don't don't be passive on me. Hang on

00:09:24 Okay, things don't translate and things don't go somewhere

00:09:28 Right go you make a decision, right? Do you like the person do you want to continue seeing them?

00:09:34 Do you do you express enthusiasm? What do you mean by doesn't go anywhere?

00:09:37 Well, I guess we we just weren't that interested in one another

00:09:43 Well, can you speak for yourself? Did you not find the woman interesting?

00:09:47 And yeah, no, I I

00:09:52 Didn't in like on on basically all the dates that I've been on I think the feeling is mutual

00:10:00 Okay, so you haven't found any women interesting and women haven't found you interesting. Is that right?

00:10:09 Yes, okay, so then you're choosing women who aren't interesting

00:10:14 So on what basis are you choosing them? If not that they're interesting?

00:10:18 I guess I guess proximity. I mean just just women that I run into in my in my day-to-day life

00:10:30 So you don't have any

00:10:34 Standards by which you choose women. It's just like you're around you're willing to go out with me. So we'll have a date and

00:10:41 You don't filter for

00:10:43 Interests or intelligence or conversation skills or virtues or anything like that, right?

00:10:48 Yeah, I guess I haven't

00:10:53 Yeah, it sounds bad to say that but no no, I mean just forget about sounds I mean

00:11:00 We just trying to get to the fact, right?

00:11:03 Yeah

00:11:04 All right

00:11:06 So if I were to say to you like let's say that you are a career guidance guy, right?

00:11:11 Like you're really good at helping people with careers and I say hey, man

00:11:14 I'm really not happy with my career and let me sort of tell you about it

00:11:17 So I

00:11:22 I've applied for a couple of jobs over the last 12 years. I

00:11:26 Just basically if I'm wandering around and I see a help wanted sign. I'll just go in

00:11:32 Right, and I'll just apply for the job and you know, sometimes it's a dishwasher, you know

00:11:37 Maybe sometimes I did a bit of landscaping

00:11:39 And you know, wherever the help wanted signs are

00:11:43 I'll just go and apply and I'll sort of randomly take the jobs and I haven't found any job

00:11:47 that's satisfying and

00:11:49 over the last 12 years, I suppose I've

00:11:53 Applied for I don't know like maybe

00:11:56 10 or 12 random jobs and I've gotten a couple of jobs, but they're just not particularly satisfying

00:12:03 And I don't know what the problem is. What would you say as a career guy?

00:12:07 I would say choose something you like to do that fulfills you and and pursue that aggressively

00:12:17 Well

00:12:21 Something like that words you would say that but it wouldn't help because that's so obvious, right?

00:12:27 So what you'd say is why on earth do you think that's a viable strategy for getting a satisfying career?

00:12:34 Like that would be the first question not obvious things like choose because that's you know

00:12:38 especially if it turned out you're listening to a career counselor guy for like

00:12:43 Four years to take an analogy, right? You'd say well, how is it?

00:12:47 How is it that you could possibly think that could work like just walking around randomly?

00:12:52 Going in getting a couple of jobs finding out you don't like the job, you know

00:12:57 And then not date not not getting a job for a year or maybe and then

00:13:00 Going in for another help wanted some random job and yeah, it's a hardware store. Yeah, I don't find it turns out

00:13:06 I don't really like hardware stores

00:13:07 Like and and I've been doing this for 12 years and I've almost I've never really had a job

00:13:13 It would be the question of a why have you been doing this for 12 years?

00:13:18 Right thinking that that this could get you a job that's meaningful and satisfying

00:13:24 Yeah, yeah, so that's my question, you know, you're an intelligent guy and the question is

00:13:31 This is a terrible strategy right I mean to be perfectly frank it's it's it's got news

00:13:38 It's good because if you've been pursuing a great strategy and you're single at 30 or a virgin at 30

00:13:44 But you've been produced that would be terrible news, right?

00:13:47 right

00:13:48 so the question is

00:13:50 Why have you been doing something that a an eight-year-old

00:13:58 Would tell you wouldn't work like if you're if you're if you say to an eight-year-old kid

00:14:04 You just give them, you know a box of random Legos and they say and you say I want you to make me a perfect

00:14:10 Star Wars

00:14:11 Millennium Falcon or something they'd say what would they say?

00:14:14 You

00:14:16 Where are the instructions? Well, I think the pieces are all different colors. I don't know what matches

00:14:23 Oh, where are the instructions like this not a plan, right?

00:14:26 Just randomly grab things out of the box and try and make a Millennium Falcon

00:14:31 That's not a plan right and so for you just like randomly asking girls out

00:14:34 That you don't filter for any virtues or values

00:14:39 That's not a plan right and you're a smart guy. So the question is why does a smart guy not have a plan?

00:14:45 It's a good question, I mean does it sort of make sense the way that I'm approaching it?

00:14:53 No, I'm not trying to make it bad. I'm actually trying to I'm actually trying to make you feel better

00:14:57 It's fantastic that this that you have no plan because if you had a plan and you were executing perfectly and you were still single

00:15:02 That would be a huge problem

00:15:05 Yeah, yeah, I understand that that's that's that is good news

00:15:09 But why why do I not have a plan I

00:15:13 Don't know I mean

00:15:17 I've known for a while that I should that I should probably

00:15:20 like find some common interest group social groups to like

00:15:25 To meet people in but I just I just haven't done it

00:15:34 Okay, and when when did it first occur to you that you might want to find some groups where you share interests with the women

00:15:40 I mean, I I've known that for a while. I mean a few years

00:15:49 And I do have interests, but most of them just don't don't tend to attract women

00:15:54 Okay, so you're saying a couple of years ago you thought maybe you should find women with similar interests

00:16:03 You

00:16:05 Yeah, I mean

00:16:09 Yeah, I've known that for for a long time I just haven't really sorry you said

00:16:13 Sorry, you said a couple of years and now you're saying a long time. Is it not a couple of years? I

00:16:18 Mean somewhere between two and four years, I guess I

00:16:23 Okay. So is it fair to say that you first became interested in dating around sort of 14 or 15 years of age?

00:16:31 Sure. Okay, so

00:16:33 For well over a decade. It didn't occur to you that you might want to find women who shared some of your interests

00:16:40 Well, no

00:16:44 That's not no, that's not what I was. That's not what I was trying to say

00:16:48 I mean, I I guess I guess growing up. I always had interests that

00:16:52 That attracted some

00:16:55 Some amount of women so it wasn't it wasn't really an issue but in an adult age, I mean I

00:17:01 Mean it's harder because you're not you're not in school or I'm not anyway, I mean you don't have I don't have like a

00:17:08 large

00:17:10 Like social group that I'm a part of anymore where where there's people all around all the time

00:17:16 So it takes a lot more just

00:17:19 activity on on my part

00:17:23 Do you know I mean

00:17:25 Well, I know that you're dodging the answer. I can hear the filibustering right? So I asked you and I'm not trying to catch you out

00:17:33 I just want to be clear right and so if I've got something wrong, let me know

00:17:36 so you're 30, let's just say you're 30 right and and

00:17:40 You said two to four years ago

00:17:42 I began to think that I should probably find a group of shared interests

00:17:45 Right, and I said when did you start interested in dating 14 or 15? Let's just say 15, right?

00:17:50 So if it was four years ago at 26 then from 15 to 26, which is 11 years

00:17:55 It didn't you said because you said like I've been thinking for the land

00:17:58 So I think what you're saying is well when I was a kid, it was easier. We had shared groups

00:18:02 But since you've been an adult

00:18:05 You you haven't right. So let's say from the age of 20 not as not as many anyway

00:18:11 Okay, let's not quibble. Please. I'm begging you. Please don't quibble. Okay, I say you haven't had shared

00:18:18 Well, not quite as many and it's like well, okay, right if I say you don't date you say well

00:18:22 I've had a couple of dates. It's like that's that's gonna quibble us into infinity

00:18:25 so

00:18:27 Yeah, so I mean for like from the age of say 20 or or whatever to to 26 or 27

00:18:33 It didn't occur to you. I mean, did you go to university? Did you meet girls through shared interest there or how did that go? I

00:18:39 Went for a couple years and that's where that's where I I went to therapy initially and found went on my first couple of dates

00:18:47 Or out age 19. Yeah, and the dates that you had in college. Did it follow the similar pattern of no particular interest?

00:18:54 Yeah, pretty much

00:18:58 Okay

00:19:00 Have you met women that you find interesting?

00:19:03 but obviously are unavailable to date maybe because of an age difference or

00:19:07 They're already in a relationship or married or mothers or is have you met women that you find interesting and you've had sustained interesting

00:19:15 Conversations with but they're just not available for some reason or not compatible

00:19:19 Yeah, yeah, I mean I've met women that I that I find interesting sure

00:19:26 Okay, and but you've not met any in women that you find interesting that have gone on a date

00:19:32 Or did you think they were interesting and then you find out that they're not?

00:19:34 Um, I just I just haven't dated any of them I guess

00:19:44 Right, so that's another fog right because that's not any of the categories

00:19:47 So when I say like have you asked women out that you thought were interesting and

00:19:53 Then so if the of the interesting women you say I've never dated them

00:19:57 But I don't know if that's because they're single but there's too much of an age gap. Maybe they're 50

00:20:02 I don't know if that's because they have a boyfriend or their mothers or they're married or

00:20:06 You know, they're in another country. Like I don't know why you didn't date them

00:20:10 So why didn't you date the women that you found interesting?

00:20:13 Oh

00:20:15 Well, there's one there's one recently that was a single mom, I mean there I there been

00:20:20 There's one a long time ago that was already in a relationship

00:20:23 Etc

00:20:27 see something like

00:20:28 multiple multiple different ones

00:20:30 Different single mom you found like she was interesting good conversationalist. You shared some interest. Is that right?

00:20:36 Yes, okay. Got it. But you didn't want to date her because she was single mom, right?

00:20:42 Exactly. Yeah, got it. Got it. Okay, so

00:20:48 You would be withholding yourself

00:20:54 From the marketplace by putting yourself in situations where you can't succeed

00:21:03 Right and a lot of people I

00:21:07 Yeah, I've done this myself. So I can a lot of people do this you put yourself in a situation

00:21:11 Where you can't succeed and then you complain that you're not succeeding right? You can't succeed this way

00:21:18 Just asking

00:21:22 Random women out without any filtering and and like that's just not a way to succeed

00:21:28 And you know if you've asked out ten women over the course of your life, and then you say I haven't found my wife

00:21:34 Then you're saying that it she should have been among the ten randomly chosen

00:21:38 Women should be somebody who's wonderfully compatible with you, right? I mean, that's not

00:21:43 With no filters and random askings and not many right you're asking out a woman approximately every year

00:21:50 Often I mean on average right? I know it's saying it could probably cluster. Yeah, but there's just no way that you can find

00:21:56 Someone who's compatible I mean the odds are I mean it's like playing the lottery and hoping to retire, right?

00:22:04 Right, okay. And again, you're a smart fellow. I put everyone who listens to the show in the top

00:22:09 1% of intelligence. So then the question is why are you?

00:22:16 Pretending to pursue a goal

00:22:20 and

00:22:21 What's the undertow right? So you have this I want a girlfriend

00:22:26 But

00:22:29 You're not joining the groups where you could find compatible

00:22:32 Women you're not finding a way to filter women

00:22:35 so that you can find someone who's compatible and

00:22:39 Have you what's your sort of history of story with with dating apps?

00:22:44 With dating apps

00:22:48 Yeah, yes with dating apps, oh, sorry, sorry you broke up a little bit

00:22:54 Um, I I've used them before but they're they're trash and I don't I don't use them anymore

00:23:01 I've done on one date through one a long time ago, but it was just it was awful. It was it was impossible to

00:23:08 Get attention on there at least for me. So yeah, I don't I don't waste my time with them

00:23:14 And what was bad about the date that you got from the dating app?

00:23:17 Um, I

00:23:22 Mean it was it was fine. I mean it

00:23:29 Well, no, I mean I it was just kind of a kind of a random woman that I

00:23:34 Like like we've been talking about that. I didn't have any shared interest with

00:23:38 just kind of

00:23:40 It's kind of an awkward conversation, I guess it was a long time ago

00:23:44 I don't I don't remember it super well, but it wasn't that wasn't terrible. It just wasn't great

00:23:48 No, no, it just wasn't. Yeah, okay

00:23:52 so your current strategy for meeting women is like

00:23:56 Tell me the last woman you asked out like how did you meet her and and how did it?

00:24:00 How did you ask her out and what happened?

00:24:02 um, I was just at a nice cocktail bar and

00:24:06 She sat nearby when she came in and

00:24:10 I just started talking to her about about one of my hobbies and got her number and

00:24:19 Try to arrange a date later on but

00:24:24 She basically ghosted me after that, right? Okay, okay

00:24:29 And did you have any sense of how old she was?

00:24:32 Maybe 23 24 something like that. Okay, so you going through a pretty big age gap there

00:24:40 But you know, not not not insurmountable, but but fairly large, right?

00:24:43 Right, okay

00:24:46 And when you were talking with her about your hobbies, how was she in the conversation?

00:24:53 Um, she she seemed to find an interest Eddie

00:24:57 And can you tell me about the hobbies that you were telling her about

00:25:02 Um, I've been really into poker recently so I was I just I I didn't I don't know I was just looking for

00:25:12 First something to start a conversation about and that just happened to be something I've been really enthusiastic about lately

00:25:18 So I just kind of started talking to her about it about poker

00:25:22 Yes, okay, and did she play cards at all

00:25:25 She yeah, it was super random, but she told me she had actually been on a on an online poker kick recently

00:25:35 Okay, and what other hobbies did you talk to her about if any?

00:25:39 That was the only one it was a short conversation

00:25:44 That was the only one it was a short conversation. How long did she go for?

00:25:47 Uh, I would say five five to ten minutes

00:25:52 And did she other than

00:25:56 Uh other than her responding to your poker thing with her poker thing. Did she mention any other hobbies?

00:26:02 Um, no, I don't I don't believe so. No, okay

00:26:12 Right, so that is

00:26:14 A low risk. I mean good for you for the the cold open so to speak, right? You're going to talk to

00:26:20 Some woman and you've never met her before. I mean that that takes some guts and you know, good good for you for that

00:26:26 But it seems a little bit that you would be playing it safe

00:26:30 I mean, yeah, it's not

00:26:37 It's not it's very level stuff and it's yeah, it's very so and again

00:26:40 I'm, not sure how much you can get into things at any kind of deep level

00:26:42 In sort of five to ten minutes, but how did the conversation wind down? Did she have to go or did you have to go?

00:26:49 She she had to go I was I was there reading and I started talking to her like a little while after she came in

00:26:56 uh and

00:26:58 And then she had to go shortly after we we started talking five or ten minutes

00:27:02 so she came into a bar

00:27:06 And then she said she had to go five or ten minutes into being in the bar

00:27:10 No, no, I was just I was sitting at the bar reading for a little while and she was there and I didn't talk to

00:27:16 Her for a little while and after she'd come into the bar. That's what I mean. Yeah. Yeah, it's not a great sign

00:27:22 If the woman's there for a while, but then she suddenly has to go after five or ten minutes of talking to you, right?

00:27:27 Right, right. Okay. Yeah, it's it's not you're right

00:27:31 All right

00:27:35 Okay, so let's go back to how much you feel you have to offer

00:27:40 A wife and children. I mean will you be a

00:27:46 Great husband and father in in your view

00:27:50 I mean, I think I could be

00:28:02 So why wouldn't you have some idea of that given that you're 30

00:28:08 I mean you've had 15 years to think about dating and marriage and being a husband and a father and so on right?

00:28:16 Yeah

00:28:21 Well, I have some idea of whether or not I would be a good father and husband at age 30, right

00:28:32 Um

00:28:34 I I'm not sure

00:28:41 Because here's the thing when you get older

00:28:48 Then you're on possession of information

00:28:52 That you don't have when you're like 16 or 17 or 18, right?

00:28:58 So you've now been an adult for 12 years. So a woman is going to

00:29:03 Look at you and say okay, so he's 30

00:29:06 Which has some pluses and some minuses right now

00:29:12 I mean some of the pluses are you're more established in your career

00:29:15 You probably have some money some some assets and resources and so on

00:29:19 But the problem is that the more valuable you are the more of a mystery

00:29:24 It is as to why you'd still be single like, you know, why hasn't some woman snatched you up?

00:29:28 So women are looking at a 30 year old. Let's say a woman's looking at a 30 year old guy in a bar who's reading

00:29:35 Oh, sorry cocktail lounge and she's gonna say why is he single

00:29:40 Right now

00:29:46 She is not going to be able to judge

00:29:52 Whether you will be a great

00:29:54 Husband and father because she's just met you

00:30:01 So what do women do with this information problem, right?

00:30:06 In order to figure out whether they want to be interested in a guy because you know

00:30:09 I'm not saying you are obviously but you could be some psycho killer some stalker some weird guy some

00:30:14 Whatever right someone who's going to just not leave them alone or so

00:30:17 So they have a risk particularly with a guy they've never met because there's no social filtering

00:30:22 You're not a friend of a friend. You don't come with any vetting. You don't come with any references. You're just some guy in a bar

00:30:28 and

00:30:31 If you're relatively comfortable talking to women in a bar

00:30:34 Then she's going to be even more suspicious because it's like okay. This guy's in a bar

00:30:39 You know, I assume you're reasonably good looking, right?

00:30:43 Yeah, okay, so this reasonably good looking guy who's comfortable talking to women in a bar is still single why so she's going to be suspicious

00:30:51 right now that doesn't mean that that's the end of the world or anything, but

00:30:53 just just be aware right that

00:30:56 Right. She's going to be suspicious of that. Like if he's comfortable talking to women

00:31:00 he's probably been talking to women for 15 years and no woman has

00:31:03 Become his girlfriend

00:31:05 Why right? So there's going to be some alarm there now

00:31:08 She's not going to be able to judge

00:31:12 You

00:31:14 You because of incomplete information other than the subtle information that

00:31:19 You're a good looking successful guy sitting in a bar reading which means you're intelligent. You're literate

00:31:24 and you have enough money to sit in a bar and and order drinks or whatever and

00:31:30 So she's going to see all of that

00:31:33 Are you of a reasonably healthy body weight?

00:31:37 Yeah, yeah, okay, so yeah, you're you know a normal

00:31:41 guy intelligent and and

00:31:44 literate and

00:31:46 You know, she would assume

00:31:48 Relatively successful given that you're sitting in a bar or a cocktail lounge

00:31:51 so those are all of the

00:31:54 The pluses but with every plus at your age comes a minus which is okay if there are all these pluses

00:32:00 Why why is he single now

00:32:06 Right. She can't judge it directly your

00:32:10 Abilities or skills or value as a husband

00:32:18 And a father so she can't judge those things directly so what is she

00:32:26 Going to do to try and figure out how good you'll be as a husband and a father

00:32:32 You

00:32:34 Um, I mean just using

00:32:40 I mean indirectly, I guess I mean just using

00:32:47 I mean all the information that she does have

00:32:50 to

00:32:51 Make a best guess

00:32:53 Well, sure. I mean that's basically what I just said. So how is she going to judge?

00:32:59 Your fitness as a potential husband and father

00:33:02 She's going to use your evaluation of it

00:33:05 Uh, right, so this is this is the question of self-esteem when I meet someone

00:33:11 If they're really self-effacing and shy and don't want to say anything i'd be like, okay

00:33:16 And at my age this person would be you know, probably at least in their 40s, right?

00:33:20 And my feeling is okay. So you've been kind of an adult for a quarter century. I can't judge you

00:33:27 But you've you know yourself and you've already judged you

00:33:30 So if somebody says well, I don't have anything to offer and I don't meet people like this particularly anymore

00:33:36 But I did when I was younger

00:33:37 So if someone comes along and says well, you know

00:33:39 Based on their body language and their eyes are downcast and they say well

00:33:42 I don't really have anything to offer and i'm really really shy and you're gonna have to do all the work

00:33:46 I'd be like well, I I can't judge you but I can see that you've judged you

00:33:50 And given that you know infinitely more about yourself than I do

00:33:56 I'm gonna accept your judgment

00:33:58 I mean if if I come up with some I find some really old coin

00:34:05 on

00:34:08 The beach and I go to some guy who's got 25 years experience evaluating coins

00:34:12 And let's say he's got no conflict of interest. I I sort of pay him to

00:34:17 To evaluate the coin I would take his evaluation, right? I I don't know the coin but but he spent 25 years studying

00:34:26 What is or is not?

00:34:28 A valuable coin, right? So I would I would take his judgment, right?

00:34:31 Right in the same way. I haven't studied much dentistry, but my dentist has so I take her recommendations, right? So

00:34:37 So what she's going to do

00:34:41 Is she's going to?

00:34:43 Judge

00:34:46 Your judgment of yourself

00:34:49 Because you are the expert in yourself

00:34:52 And she's a total noob

00:34:56 She's just meeting you for the first time

00:34:58 so she is going to

00:35:00 Judge

00:35:04 You according to the judgment you have of yourself now. I don't know exactly the mechanisms by which

00:35:10 These judgments transfer but they do

00:35:12 It could be eye contact it could be vocal tone it could be posture it could be

00:35:20 The topics that are chosen. It could be spontaneity. It could be

00:35:25 all of these

00:35:27 Things but somehow

00:35:29 your evaluation of yourself

00:35:31 Will transfer to the woman

00:35:34 And she will take that as gospel

00:35:37 So if you don't know whether you'd be a good husband

00:35:43 And father given that that's kind of your job as a man, right? You have to figure these things out

00:35:49 I mean why why are there men because we become husbands and fathers, right? That's the whole point of

00:35:55 Most people's lives is to reproduce and and and you do want to do it

00:35:59 Do I have this right like you want to be a husband and father at some point?

00:36:02 Yeah, okay, yeah, so you want to be a husband and a father at some point

00:36:07 So it's your job to figure out what you have to offer

00:36:09 And to be confident in that, right?

00:36:12 And sure, you know if if you go if you go to a dentist

00:36:19 And the dentist has been a dentist for like 15 years

00:36:23 And the dentist is like, yeah, I don't know

00:36:26 I mean, i'm not sure exactly what the pink stuff is at the base of the tooth and

00:36:30 I don't really know what these scraping tools are for and I you know

00:36:33 I don't really know what value I have to offer as a dentist. Will you go back to that dentist?

00:36:37 No, of course not of course not

00:36:40 Now if the dentist is right out of school, like I remember when I was a a kid

00:36:46 My mom used to take me to get my haircut at the hair cutting school

00:36:52 And I was like a guinea pig, right?

00:36:54 Because it was like it was like two bucks to get my hair cut if they were practicing on me

00:36:58 But nobody would guarantee me a decent haircut, right? It got these weird bowl cuts and stuff like that, right?

00:37:03 I remember some right. I remember um one of the hair

00:37:07 Hairdressing students, you know sort of felt my hair and said oh you

00:37:12 You swim a lot don't you

00:37:15 Uh, i'm i'm like, but yeah, i'm on the water polo team swim team and all that and she's like

00:37:20 Yeah, I can tell from your hair, right?

00:37:22 It's a little bit green and it's kind of brittle and I remember the instructor was like, yeah come back tomorrow

00:37:26 She'll tell your whole fortune

00:37:28 and

00:37:29 so

00:37:30 I wasn't expecting great haircuts from the students and if somebody is fresh out of dentistry school

00:37:35 I can understand a bit of tentativeness, but then of course I would expect the price to be lower

00:37:39 But you're not fresh out of dating school. You've been interested in dating for 15 years, right?

00:37:46 So for 15 years you're trying to sell yourself as a potential husband and father

00:37:51 And you you're not sure of the value you might bring which means that deep down you're just going to feel fraudulent, aren't you?

00:37:58 Yeah

00:38:05 Yeah, I guess so

00:38:08 I mean, I know i'm great with kids i'm

00:38:11 Have kids in the family extended family when I was growing up

00:38:14 And I was always great fun with them. I worked in a daycare like I i'm great with kids and

00:38:20 So I knew that was going to be the case

00:38:22 I am

00:38:24 a great

00:38:25 husband and and so on and you know, it just it took a while to find the woman who was going to

00:38:29 Recognize that and really value that and the same thing was true with my wife. She's a wonderful mother and a

00:38:34 Perfect wife for me

00:38:37 And it just took a while for her to find somebody who was going to value that I didn't doubt my value

00:38:41 It was just kind of frustrating that sometimes people didn't see the value that

00:38:45 I knew I had and then when I found someone who did, you know

00:38:48 we've been happily married for like 21 years and all of that, so

00:38:51 That's the question why what are the blocks do you think that that's in your mind

00:39:00 That have you doubt whether you'd be a good husband and father

00:39:06 You

00:39:08 Well, I mean being almost 30 and having no

00:39:15 No dating history at all. No, I guess that no. Sorry. I knew you would just go there

00:39:20 I didn't want to warn you ahead of time, but that's similar, right? That's right because

00:39:24 If you had true confidence that you had were going to be a great husband and father you wouldn't be single now

00:39:32 Yeah

00:39:34 Yeah

00:39:39 So, why do you think the doubt is there but what do you think is there something missing in you

00:39:53 I mean, you you know, you see couples all around you see people getting married having kids. I mean, obviously, they're not all great people, but

00:39:58 If you're not on the carousel, um

00:40:02 Why what do you feel might be missing from you?

00:40:04 And I assume this is from the beginning because it wasn't like you had

00:40:08 a lot of dating experience and some great relationships that didn't quite work out and then your

00:40:13 Confidence went down. I assume the confidence wasn't super high from the beginning, right?

00:40:17 No, no, it wasn't okay. So what's what do you think is lacking or missing in your confidence?

00:40:24 That is transmitting itself to women and having them steer clear

00:40:29 of

00:40:31 Well, I mean i've never

00:40:35 I've never found it easy to to connect with with women

00:40:40 Like on an emotional level

00:40:44 So, I mean that's that's definitely I think that's definitely part of it

00:40:49 Um, i'm not sure why that is exactly

00:40:56 Do you feel that this is the case for you with men as well

00:40:59 Less less so with men. I mean it's it's easier to

00:41:05 Well, yeah, okay. Yeah, maybe maybe it is with men, too

00:41:10 I was gonna say it's easier to relate to men about about different things

00:41:15 like just shared interests and stuff like that, but

00:41:17 That's not that's not on an emotional level, but so that's totally boring shit, man

00:41:23 There's nothing wrong with it, but I play poker. I mean, this is not reaching each other at a soul level, right?

00:41:28 Right, yeah, I just don't know how to start a conversation sometimes like I want to but I I don't

00:41:35 Yeah, I know. It's I know it's kind of dumb

00:41:38 Okay, so do you feel that you and I are connecting emotionally over the course of this conversation

00:41:43 We're talking about some pretty intimate stuff, right?

00:41:45 Sure, yeah

00:41:50 Sorry sure. Yeah. Yes. We're talking about emotional stuff or sorry. Yes. Yeah, we're talking about emotional stuff

00:41:57 Okay

00:42:00 What was my other question?

00:42:02 Are we connecting on an emotional level? Right? Um, no, I I mean

00:42:09 I'm not saying i'm not saying it's your fault. I'm just saying no. Um

00:42:18 I mean, it's I

00:42:20 I'm sorry, are you still there?

00:42:32 Yes, yeah, i'm here. Sorry. I wasn't sure if that was the end of the sentence or not

00:42:36 I'm, not sure if you were halfway through a thought

00:42:38 Yeah, I was I was trailing off. Um

00:42:42 No, I guess we're not

00:42:48 Well, i'm sorry i'm not sure what you mean did you are you truly guessing that like you have no idea if we are or not

00:42:54 Well, I I guess I don't really know exactly how to judge that like

00:43:00 Okay, have you had uh, have you heard have you had a relationship or a conversation

00:43:07 where

00:43:09 You do feel something

00:43:11 A little bit different from this kind of avoidance and awkwardness

00:43:14 That's kind of going on between us where you have a sort of direct back and forth

00:43:18 You're not jumpy. You're not defensive. You're not avoiding answering. You're not vaguing out or clouding out or

00:43:24 Gapping out or like there's a direct back and forth communication heart to heart

00:43:29 no

00:43:31 interference no

00:43:32 avoidance

00:43:34 Yeah, yeah i've had that okay, can you tell me about that?

00:43:39 Oh just one of my one of my buddies that I work with

00:43:44 Um, he had a very difficult childhood and we we've gotten into that quite a bit. Um at various times

00:43:51 Okay, so you've had that real connection with someone right

00:43:55 Sure. Yes. Yes, and do you feel that you and I are having that real connection?

00:44:00 No, okay. So i'm not sure what you mean when you say you don't know the difference like because I was saying

00:44:06 Do you think we're connected and you're like, well, I don't really know the difference

00:44:09 I don't really know whether we are connected or not

00:44:11 but you compare it to what's going on with your friend at work and you

00:44:14 Feel the difference

00:44:17 Yes, so I

00:44:21 This is this is what's tough about communicating for me with you

00:44:24 Is that it's all over the map and things contradict themselves and you don't even seem to notice

00:44:28 Like you say well, I don't know if we're connecting or not because I don't know what it's like to connect with someone and I

00:44:34 Say well, have you connected? Oh, yeah. No, I connect with my friend really deeply

00:44:38 And it's like but then wouldn't you notice the difference, you know what I mean? It's a little confusing

00:44:41 Yeah. Yeah, and i'm not criticizing. I'm not criticizing. I'm just pointing out that it's a it's a little

00:44:48 All all over the map if that makes sense

00:44:52 Yeah, I see what you mean

00:44:55 Right, and then when I was asking you and again, none of this is a criticism at all at all

00:45:00 It's totally fine. I'm just sort of pointing it out. Yeah, I yes I asked you to be as blunt as you

00:45:04 Yeah, and so when I was asking you to be mad, yeah, so when I was asking you about

00:45:08 You know what you were saying that you know that for you said for a couple of years you've needed to join groups with similar

00:45:17 interests

00:45:18 And I said, oh, okay

00:45:19 Well, how long has that been and you fogged out for a bit and then we got you to two to four years and then I?

00:45:24 Said okay. So for a long time you didn't it's like well, I kind of did or there was school and and it just

00:45:29 It just feels like we kind of get nowhere and a lot of people would just get exhausted and tap out

00:45:35 because there's just a lot of fog and there's a lot of

00:45:37 confusion and it's hard to

00:45:40 You know, there's a lot of I guesses and maybe and sure kind of, you know, all that sort of stuff, right?

00:45:46 Yeah, so for a lot of people it's hard to get to the real you because there's

00:45:51 a lot of fog and almost misdirection and avoidance and defensiveness and

00:45:56 And avoidance of attack or something like that. And so it's hard to just have a clear conversation

00:46:03 Now, of course you could say and and well, well if I don't know am I supposed to fake knowledge?

00:46:07 but

00:46:10 Even when you do have clear knowledge where you say I have a great conversation with my friend at work

00:46:14 But I don't know the difference between that and other things. It's like well that doesn't make any sense

00:46:18 Then if you have a clear opposite, then you would know the difference, right?

00:46:21 Yeah, okay

00:46:26 So it seems to me that there's a certain amount of dodginess or avoidance

00:46:30 In your personality and so now I did give you and I was certainly happy to give it a shot, right?

00:46:36 because I said

00:46:38 How do you want to?

00:46:40 Approach things and you were very clear and I appreciate that clarity and you said I don't want to do childhood

00:46:46 I want to do strategies, right?

00:46:49 But unfortunately when talking about strategies we run into the kind of fog that can only be generated from childhood

00:46:57 These are habits that come out of childhood, right this level of avoidance, right?

00:47:01 I don't think that you have particularly noticed that you're avoiding or dodging and you haven't said oh, you know what?

00:47:07 I have contradicted myself

00:47:09 It's all a strategy in the moment

00:47:11 to not

00:47:13 Be criticized or to not be in the wrong or to not

00:47:16 Be at fault or something like that, right the moment

00:47:18 The moment that we started talking about not being emotionally connected you immediately started to say well

00:47:24 I'm not saying it's your fault. Like somebody has to be at fault. There has to be a problem. Somebody's going to get criticized

00:47:29 So, uh, I did give it a shot if you don't mind right I mean

00:47:35 We have to do the childhood stuff

00:47:38 because

00:47:39 The childhood stuff is interfering with the adult stuff

00:47:41 And you weren't aware of that, right?

00:47:45 Yeah, I I see what you mean

00:47:49 so i'm afraid i'll have to take the reins if you don't mind and

00:47:54 Let's talk about the childhood stuff. So how were you disciplined or punished or corrected as a child?

00:47:59 Um spanking sometimes

00:48:04 That was one way, um not being able to spend time on the computer

00:48:11 What else

00:48:15 Those are the two that stand out off the top of my head

00:48:18 as far as discipline for for wrongdoing goes

00:48:23 Okay, and how often were you spanked?

00:48:25 It's tough to remember I mean not a ton but maybe maybe a few times a year or something when I was when I was

00:48:35 Really young

00:48:37 Okay

00:48:38 and

00:48:40 What sort of behaviors were you punished for?

00:48:44 You

00:48:46 Well, it's it's tough to remember exactly what I would have gotten spanked for um

00:49:01 Okay, so this is this is an example of annoying annoying speech. I'm just I don't know

00:49:06 Let me finish right. Okay. So

00:49:10 Did I use the word exactly?

00:49:14 You

00:49:16 You said what sorts of things right so I'm asking for a category and you're saying well it's tough to remember exactly

00:49:23 So you've taken what I've said i'm just asking for broad categories

00:49:28 And then you say well, it's tough to remember exactly

00:49:32 What I was spanked for which is not what I asked for I mean I didn't say I want you to tell me exactly

00:49:38 What you were spanked for that would be a meaningless question because it would be different each time, right?

00:49:43 And I don't know what it would mean to say what exactly so so you inserted a word

00:49:48 That gives you an excuse

00:49:51 to avoid answering

00:49:53 And that's like that insertion of the word is a complete straw man of what it is

00:49:57 I asked for now you can say I don't remember any categories. I don't remember anything about what I was spanked for

00:50:05 But instead you insert the word exactly

00:50:09 Which is not at all what I asked for it's almost the complete opposite of what I asked for I asked for general categories

00:50:14 And you inserted the word exactly and said well, I can't remember exactly

00:50:19 And what that means is you're not listening. You're you're having a conversation with your defenses and you're reinterpreting what I say

00:50:26 Based upon your desire to avoid answering the question

00:50:32 And you don't even seem to notice that like you don't say you don't say well steph

00:50:36 I know you asked for categories, but i'm I I have this urge to talk about exactly what?

00:50:41 The I think that's not what i'm asking for, right?

00:50:44 Like if I if I say on average how tall are danish people

00:50:50 And you say well, I don't know the exact height of every danish person. It's like there's no

00:50:54 but you don't even notice that you're interpreting and re-translating and and and completely

00:51:00 Sabotaging the conversation does that make sense?

00:51:05 Yes, yes, and so this this uh, somewhat annoying i'm not saying you're being annoying i'm saying for me it's annoying

00:51:12 Yeah, right. This somewhat annoying reinterpretation makes it pretty exhausting to talk to you if that makes sense

00:51:18 I'm not saying i'm exhausted

00:51:19 But I think for the average person would just be like well, this is a negative experience

00:51:23 I think I have to leave the cocktail bar

00:51:25 Okay

00:51:28 And that's good news, right? That's good news because if you're doing something wrong you can do something right? Okay, so let's go back

00:51:34 Yeah, no, sorry. Go ahead

00:51:36 I was just gonna say it's the same thing as not having a plan

00:51:40 It it would be bad news if i'd been doing everything great all along right, right and I still hadn't had any success

00:51:46 Okay, so let's go back. What about the general categories categories?

00:51:50 What was the general categories of behaviors that you were punished for and I can give you some examples if they're not popping to mind

00:51:56 They're they're not popping to minds, okay, so it could be talking back it could be getting bad grades

00:52:03 It could be any general disobedience. It could be a failure to listen and obey

00:52:08 it could be

00:52:10 Embarrassing your parents in public it could be

00:52:12 Getting in trouble at school. It could be uh stealing or lying or like these are the general categories

00:52:19 Of things that children get punished for

00:52:22 That could be others but those just off the top of my head

00:52:24 Yeah, um general disobedience, um

00:52:31 I I did y a decent amount when I was a kid too. So so there there is that i'm sure that happened

00:52:38 Um

00:52:41 There's one other one that you mentioned but it's popped my mind somehow. Um, uh bad grades getting in trouble

00:52:47 Oh talking back that's what it was that's what it was yes

00:52:51 Okay, so can you think of now here we're going to specifics and it's okay if you don't remember but can you think of a specific?

00:52:58 example

00:52:59 where you were punished for

00:53:02 Talking back. So I mean basically it just means thinking differently from your parents having an independent mind

00:53:07 And disagreeing with your parents, right? I mean, that's what it basically means

00:53:10 So can you think of a time when you got punished for?

00:53:13 What would be called talking back or disobeying?

00:53:16 I I can't think of a specific one. Um, I I got spanked when I was really

00:53:23 really young so uh

00:53:26 It's it's tough to remember back quite that far. And do you remember roughly what age you were when you were spanked?

00:53:32 Under under 10, I would say oh, that's not really young. Yeah

00:53:38 I think it like two or three. Okay. Oh, no, no, no, no. No, sorry

00:53:44 I mean maybe I don't know exactly but definitely under 10. It would have stopped after that. I think

00:53:52 It's tough to remember. It's tough to remember specifically. Okay, and you also mentioned that computer access was blocked and and so on when you would

00:53:58 Do what?

00:53:59 Uh, I assume this was in your teens

00:54:01 Yes, that would have been yeah, yes later on and what sort of behaviors in your teens would get your computer blocked

00:54:18 Um probably just not doing what I was what I was supposed to do like if I if I wasn't doing

00:54:24 Homework and stuff. Um, and that would have been probably around around 10 to 13 or something like that

00:54:31 Okay, and did your parents ever ask you why you didn't want to do homework

00:54:46 Um, no

00:54:49 No, sorry, i'm i'm doing it again, I know uh, no, that's fine if you say no, that's a that's an honest answer

00:54:58 I don't I don't have you're not saying well, I can't remember or what?

00:55:02 Specific or anything like that. So you're saying in general you can't remember

00:55:08 If your parents asked you why you didn't want to do homework

00:55:14 No, and that yeah, I don't remember I no, no, sorry

00:55:17 I I can't remember

00:55:20 If they if they asked me or not, yeah ask me why okay

00:55:24 Can you think of a time when you did something that your parents disapproved of that they asked you why?

00:55:31 You did it. So for instance, you said that you lied a lot. I personally i'm just telling you my own personal preference

00:55:37 This is nothing to do with right or wrong

00:55:39 I don't like it when people say I lied as a child because children have no independence no

00:55:45 Moral stature, so if an adult lies, that's one thing but children are just trying to survive

00:55:53 You know and and if a guy lies, you know the old canteen argument, you know, oh you got to tell the truth

00:56:00 Okay, so some guy comes and says he wants to kill your wife and demands to know where she is

00:56:04 Do you tell the truth? It's like well, I would never condemn anyone for lying in that situation, right?

00:56:08 I mean, that's not even lying. That's just surviving, right?

00:56:10 So I try not to use adult moral terms on children

00:56:16 Because they're not adults and they're just trying to survive in a situation

00:56:20 and

00:56:23 so

00:56:24 What sort of things?

00:56:26 Maybe we could use the word fib or I don't know if that makes any sense

00:56:29 Well, we just say we'd lie. Okay. So what sort of things would you lie about as a kid?

00:56:35 Well, this isn't uh, this isn't a lie, but this is just the first thing that popped into mind

00:56:40 um, this is a this is like I I stole 40 from my brother one time and I like I guess there's a lie in it, too, I

00:56:47 I uh, I denied it

00:56:50 Like fervently like wouldn't admit that I had done it. Sure. That was that was one thing

00:56:55 That was the biggest thing that popped into my mind and how old were you when you did that?

00:57:03 Between 10 and

00:57:05 10 and 12 probably somewhere around then. Okay, and what did you buy?

00:57:10 With the 40 dollars or did you just keep it?

00:57:12 I I just kept it. I couldn't tell you what I bought with it. Okay

00:57:18 Where did you hide it? Is it still there? I'm just kidding. Where did you hide it?

00:57:22 Uh

00:57:26 I

00:57:28 Probably just my wallet. I I don't think I made an attempt to hide it

00:57:33 Oh, so wasn't that pretty easy to figure out like he thinks you stole the money. They just check your wallet

00:57:37 Oh, there's 40 bucks. Well, that's it, right? It's not like you got 40 bucks lying around after when you're 10 years old, right?

00:57:43 I I might have I mean I I probably did

00:57:48 just

00:57:50 Just uh chores mowing the lawn, etc. Okay

00:57:53 Now, why do you think you took the money from your brother?

00:57:57 Um

00:57:59 Because I wanted because I wanted it I guess I mean, I don't I don't have a better answer than that

00:58:11 Well, okay, but we want lots of things right I mean when you go to the store you want candy that doesn't mean you pocket

00:58:19 it right

00:58:20 As a kid, right? Right, right. So why did you take the 40 dollars? Do you think?

00:58:25 I

00:58:27 I I thought I could get away with it, I guess. Um

00:58:35 Okay, let me ask you another question

00:58:44 What are some moral or life lessons that your parents instructed you on that you still use to this day?

00:58:52 I

00:58:54 Mean it's ironic, but don't don't steal. Um, I mean just 10 commandments stuff

00:59:01 Uh

00:59:05 Just feel used to this day, um

00:59:07 Well, I mean, I assume that you don't have big temptations to steal at the moment, right?

00:59:12 Yeah, I mean, I mean, I

00:59:15 I

00:59:17 Mean, I assume that you don't have big temptations to steal at the moment, right?

00:59:21 No, no, okay

00:59:24 Okay. Yeah, I see what you mean, but I still use to this day. Um

00:59:29 Sorry i'm drawing a blank, um, no, that's fine. I mean so

00:59:41 In general, it doesn't sound like you got a lot of parenting

00:59:45 I mean you got some lectures on the 10 commandments, I guess but you didn't get

00:59:48 Much much parenting right in terms of getting valuable lessons that help you guide your way through life

00:59:55 Yeah, that's that's correct

00:59:58 So I can tell you why it's funny because I just had this convo yesterday with someone so it's kind of fresh in my brain

01:00:03 So I can tell you why

01:00:05 You took the 40 dollars

01:00:07 Okay

01:00:10 So you wanted 40 dollars, right?

01:00:13 As as let's say 11, right? You said somewhere between 10 and 12, right? So you wanted the 40 dollars, right?

01:00:18 Now, do you know what happens in a healthy parent-child relationship?

01:00:23 Um the parent would

01:00:28 Would talk would have a conversation about it maybe and not and not just jump straight to punishment

01:00:35 No, as if I had like the moral. No. No, I mean what? Yeah, because you're already like you've stolen, right?

01:00:42 Yeah, yeah i'm talking about a healthy relationship a healthy relationship

01:00:45 First of all, the parents recognize that children need money

01:00:49 Children want money. Of course they do because you want some independence and you don't want to be begging your parents for everything, right?

01:00:55 Children want property they want things of their own they want money they all these things, right?

01:01:01 So you would recognize that your child

01:01:05 You know starting from the age of sort of eight or nine is going to want a couple of bucks

01:01:10 What was in my somebody used to an old guy in my neighborhood when I was a kid is that walking around money here?

01:01:15 Yes some walking around money

01:01:17 So you're gonna want

01:01:19 And and even if you don't spend it, you're gonna want some money, right?

01:01:21 So the parents have to figure out how to get money into the hands of children without just giving it to them because then that

01:01:27 Just teaches you to just be given stuff, right?

01:01:31 So in a healthy parent-child relationship the parents say okay

01:01:34 So, you know

01:01:35 Eight or nine a kid's gonna start to want money and you do that by remembering how you were at the age of eight or nine

01:01:41 Or something like that and then you say okay. Um

01:01:43 So how how are we going to teach this kid about money?

01:01:47 How are we going to teach this kid about earning stuff and saving stuff and spending stuff and all that kind of stuff?

01:01:52 So you start to work with your kids

01:01:54 Whatever age, you know eight or nine is not bad. It could be could be different you start to work with your kids about money

01:01:59 So you wanted forty dollars, which is perfectly natural for an 11 year old

01:02:04 you wanted forty dollars

01:02:06 and

01:02:08 You had no idea how to get it without stealing it. Does that make sense?

01:02:11 Yeah, now if you had a healthy relationship with your parents you'd say mom dad I really want some money

01:02:20 And what would they say

01:02:24 Here's here's something you can you can do to earn some money

01:02:30 Well, yeah, I mean they'd say look i'm sorry that you have to come to us

01:02:33 We should have dealt with this as parents right teaching kids about money is you understand?

01:02:37 It's one of the most foundational things about parenting is teaching your kids about money

01:02:40 Because money is money is so important to happiness, right? It's like that old

01:02:46 Charles dickens thing said basically

01:02:49 You know income forty thousand dollars a year

01:02:53 expenses

01:02:55 Forty one thousand a year result misery

01:02:58 Expenses income forty thousand a year expenses thirty nine thousand a year result happiness

01:03:04 Right. It's it's that narrow a swing, right?

01:03:07 So teaching your kids about money is foundational. So you so they'd say gee i'm really sorry we left it so long

01:03:12 You want you want the money? I totally understand that

01:03:15 so

01:03:18 Let's talk about money. Let's talk about how you get it

01:03:20 Let's talk about like, you know, you can set up a lemonade stand

01:03:22 You can offer you can take my mower and you can offer to mow people's lawns. You can offer to wash people's cars you can

01:03:28 uh, you know, you know, you can just sort of go through the list of things that that kids can do to try and get

01:03:33 a hold of

01:03:34 Of of some money, you know, you can offer to watch people's houses if they're going on vacation

01:03:38 You like there's tons of things that you can do

01:03:40 You know if there's a pool in the neighborhood

01:03:43 You can offer if they're away to make sure that the pool is is filled and all of that, right?

01:03:47 So there's tons of things that you can do

01:03:49 to try and earn

01:03:51 Some money, right or you know, your brother has some money

01:03:54 Is your brother's older than you? Is that right?

01:03:58 Yeah, okay. So then you would say look your brother has some money and maybe

01:04:02 There's things that you can do you can trade with your brother to get some money, right?

01:04:07 There's things that he wants you to do maybe

01:04:09 some some maybe not homework because I know it's supposed to be doing it, but

01:04:13 Maybe there's things that you can trade that your brother wants

01:04:16 Maybe you have a bike that he wants or maybe there's something that he wants done that you know

01:04:20 maybe you can do some of his chores and he can pay you or

01:04:23 you know, there's any number of things that you can do to try and start to get the relationship between work and

01:04:29 Income and

01:04:32 That way you learn something, but you didn't go to your parents saying I want money

01:04:37 You took the money and you took the money out of despair

01:04:42 Everyone who takes

01:04:45 is confessing

01:04:47 That they don't know how to earn or trade like your parents could say listen

01:04:51 You got a bunch of toys that you don't play with anymore. Why don't you have a garage sale?

01:04:55 I mean that's kind of fun, right?

01:04:59 Going through everything looking up the value labeling it putting the flyers up. I mean that's fun, right?

01:05:06 Yeah

01:05:10 and you can then learn

01:05:13 The pluses and minuses and the ups and downs and the goods and bads of earning money and

01:05:17 And work and reward and effort and investment and planning and right how to be, you know

01:05:22 Pleasant and have good customer service or like whatever it is, right whatever you're doing

01:05:26 so the reason that you took the 40 dollars

01:05:29 Is you hadn't been taught anything about how to get 40 without stealing?

01:05:39 In other words you stole because you were stolen from and what you were what was stolen from you was

01:05:44 parenting guidance

01:05:47 advice feedback utility helpfulness value

01:05:51 And your brother, how did your brother get the 40 bucks do you remember

01:05:57 I I don't remember probably doing some some form of work. Okay, and how much older was he?

01:06:06 Uh three years three years older now was he a good brother

01:06:10 Did he look out for you did he help you along did he bring you along did he guide you did he

01:06:17 You know, he learned something new. Did he try and teach it to you?

01:06:20 Did he transfer any of the value that he got out of life to you when you were a kid or anything like that?

01:06:25 He when we were kids he was in some ways, um

01:06:30 and and he's actually a listener of your show too and we've talked about this but uh,

01:06:35 I uh, I was excluded a lot when I was a kid just from things that I would have liked to been have been included in

01:06:41 um, like like with him and his friends

01:06:44 Okay, so, uh, he he had some he had some way of getting a hold of the 40 dollars

01:06:49 And he didn't bring you along or teach you anything about how to get money, right?

01:06:55 No, I

01:07:00 Okay. So I mean one example would be you know, when I was I don't know 11 or whatever

01:07:04 I had a paper route. I had like a job and a paper route

01:07:07 and

01:07:09 I didn't have a younger brother, but if I had a younger brother, I would have said something like, you know

01:07:13 Hey, you know come and help me with the paper route and all

01:07:16 I'll give you some money

01:07:19 And then I would teach him about you know

01:07:21 Here's how to put the advertising inserts in here's the giant sack of papers

01:07:26 Here's how to ride your bike without it falling into the spokes, you know, whatever it is. So you try and transfer some

01:07:31 knowledge

01:07:34 to your

01:07:35 Brother because you care about your brother and you want him to come along and particularly if the parents aren't doing it

01:07:39 So then you wouldn't need to take 40 dollars from him

01:07:43 Because he would have already figured out a way for you to earn some portion of that

01:07:49 Right stealing is an act of despair nobody's helping me nobody's parenting nobody's teaching me a goddamn thing

01:07:57 So i'm just going to take stuff

01:08:00 I mean they're taken from me because they're not parenting me

01:08:04 and

01:08:05 You're mad at your brother because he's not bringing you along on his life's journey to some degree

01:08:09 And listen, i'm i'm not blaming him like he was 14 and you were 11 or something like that, but you know, right?

01:08:15 Yeah, it's still it's still it's still not great. And of course if he looks back he would say well

01:08:19 Yeah, like why because so so the problem is that you're stealing because the family's screwed up

01:08:24 But you are what is called the identified patient. Oh, no, he stole that's bad

01:08:31 He just made a choice and in a void of his own perfect free will to steal and it's like no he didn't

01:08:37 No, he didn't

01:08:41 First of all stealing is wired into our biological natures half of nature is animals stealing from each other, right?

01:08:48 I mean every time a lion brings down a

01:08:50 Gazelle, there's like 300 jackals and vultures. They're all trying to steal stuff, right?

01:08:55 I mean the the

01:08:58 animals steal the eggs of the

01:09:01 Birds all the time. I'm theftist, you know, so theft is kind of wired into our nature

01:09:04 We have to evolve past that and we do that

01:09:06 Through learning how to provide value and trade and earn right?

01:09:10 And you weren't taught that so you stayed in a primitive state, of course you did

01:09:15 How could you not right it's like

01:09:19 If you grew up among wolves, you wouldn't know english because you were raised by wolves. You'd know how to

01:09:24 You wouldn't know english

01:09:26 So if you're not taught anything about money pattern, i'm, sorry go ahead

01:09:31 I I was just gonna say that was kind of a pattern for me when I was a kid cheating games

01:09:35 And and stuff like that. I did that a decent amount

01:09:38 Cheating a game stealing a handful of times

01:09:41 And and you said lying too like why why the kids lie?

01:09:44 Because they can't get what they want by telling the truth and it's foundational to good parenting to

01:09:50 Have your children be able to get what they want by being good

01:09:53 And if the only way that you can get what you want is by lying

01:09:57 Well, what is your biologic is your biological imperative to tell the truth or to survive?

01:10:00 To survive of course, right

01:10:05 Because any right all the kids who decided to tell the truth

01:10:09 Even if that got them in massive trouble with their parents, they didn't generally tend to make it, right?

01:10:14 So it seems to me like you might have

01:10:20 All of these moral judgments that your parents inflicted on you

01:10:24 For behaviors that were entirely their fault

01:10:27 For not being helpful parents for not being wise parents for not being instructive parents

01:10:32 and maybe because of the you know, the fundamentalist religious views they were like

01:10:36 Well children just born bad, you know, and they're gonna lie. They're gonna cheat

01:10:41 They're gonna steal and blah blah blah blah blah. And so you just have to punish them and and it's like well, that's just that's terrible

01:10:46 That's that's terrible parenting. Yeah it

01:10:50 It is I grew up terrified that if I died randomly I would just I would go to hell because I wasn't good enough

01:10:56 You know, right and that's that's the essence of the first sort of hour of a conversation was fear, right?

01:11:02 You're fearful of getting the wrong answer

01:11:05 You're fearful of giving the right answer if it makes say your parents look bad or or you look bad

01:11:09 So you're doing a lot of management of fear. Is is that a fair statement? And I I don't know criticism at all

01:11:14 I'm just something i'm I sort of i'm seeing

01:11:19 No, I I think you're right

01:11:21 Right now fear is how attractive to women

01:11:28 It's not attractive it's the it's the opposite it's a repellent

01:11:34 well, it's it's

01:11:37 We can say repellent and I think you're right, but it is

01:11:40 not

01:11:42 going to inspire

01:11:44 the feeling of

01:11:46 Have my children

01:11:48 Because if you're a fearful guy

01:11:50 It means that you're already kind of beaten down. You're low status. You can't win

01:11:54 and you lack particular skills and

01:11:57 You're not aware that you lack skills. So the fear is to cover up the bad parenting

01:12:02 And it's not just bad parenting

01:12:06 I mean, it's not like you can negotiate in school for anything

01:12:09 They just do what you're told or will take a year from your life by holding you back, right?

01:12:12 I'll punish you or you know when I was a kid, it was like

01:12:15 hitting

01:12:17 Kids, uh caning and so on right? So it's just like do what we say or we'll f you up, right? That's sort of the essence of

01:12:23 education and of course if your parents are that way and

01:12:26 If if the religious view they gave you was well, you know, you're just kind of immoral and you've got to fight like hell against

01:12:33 The demons that infest and surround you and and like that's a pretty it's a pretty terrifying world view, right?

01:12:40 Yeah, and I think I think children are born

01:12:46 They're born good at least they're certainly born neutral. We certainly can't say that they're born evil because babies can't be evil, right?

01:12:51 And if right if we're honest and direct with our children, they grow up to be great people

01:12:57 If we kind of ignore and punish them and and

01:13:01 Communicate to them that they're bad for breathing. Well, guess what? I mean, they're gonna grow up, uh uncertain and nervous and

01:13:09 and

01:13:11 Feeling like they don't have much value to add to people

01:13:15 Because they're bad, right?

01:13:17 Right, right

01:13:19 So the reason i'm saying this is that if you have any sort of impression that as a kid

01:13:24 Well, I just lied and I stole and you know, whatever whatever I cheated and and so on it's like well you survived

01:13:29 And i'm sorry that you were in a situation where you had to do that to survive, but i'm glad you did it

01:13:34 Like if you can look back and say thank

01:13:37 goodness

01:13:39 Thank my lucky stars. Thank zeus. Thank whoever

01:13:43 Thank goodness

01:13:45 That I lied and stole and cheated because that indicated a very strong commitment to survival in the absence of any

01:13:52 Fundamental or useful moral instruction whatsoever and in a dangerous and coercive environment

01:13:58 Right. I mean to take an extreme example if you are in

01:14:02 some sort of concentration camp

01:14:04 And you can steal some food from the guards and get away with it

01:14:10 Won't you do it? I mean you're starving. Yeah, of course. So would you sit there and say i'm so glad I stole because that's why i'm here

01:14:18 Yeah, I never thought to look at it look at it that way

01:14:27 But because if you're carrying some shame like your parents will say I mean I assume they said

01:14:33 Uh, you stole because you're bad

01:14:38 Yes, it would have been something like that you're a liar because you're bad right you cheat because you're bad

01:14:44 You're disobedient because you're bad. You're bad. You're bad. You're bad. You're bad. You're bad. You're bad, right?

01:14:49 Thus taking all the deficiencies of their parenting and crucifying your soul

01:15:00 In the image of their innocence and your bottomless guilt and corruption

01:15:07 Which is a totally shitty thing to do to a kid by the way

01:15:10 Yeah, I I agree

01:15:14 I mean that's kind of old testament to put it mildly, right?

01:15:18 Yeah

01:15:20 Yeah

01:15:21 I think it's a shitty thing to do to a kid to

01:15:24 To tell them that they'll go to hell because if they're you know, if they're if they're bad enough

01:15:30 enough

01:15:31 Well, and then yeah everything you do that you need to do to survive. They just call bad, right?

01:15:36 so they they put you in a situation where you

01:15:38 Feel that you need to do these things and your instincts are to do these things, right?

01:15:43 Because you want the 40 dollars, but you have no idea how to get it in an honorable fashion

01:15:47 and a fun fashion

01:15:49 And so you take it. Of course you do

01:15:51 Of course of course like of course you do that's your biological imperative that's survived

01:15:58 And then your parents take the biological imperative that they've inflicted and instilled upon you by not giving you any reasonable alternatives

01:16:04 And then they just punish the living hell out of you for the situation that they created

01:16:09 Right

01:16:13 So are we getting some emotional connection now, how you doing

01:16:19 Um, no that all that all that makes sense, um

01:16:25 You

01:16:27 I mean and how can you

01:16:38 Love yourself or take delight in yourself

01:16:41 If the very people who gave you life

01:16:43 Call you bad

01:16:46 for breathing

01:16:47 Or create situations where you end up acting it on a biological imperative

01:16:51 Then call you kind of demonically possessed or something like that or some equivalent

01:16:55 Um

01:16:57 How I mean, okay, how can other people want you yeah, sorry go ahead

01:17:05 I I was just gonna say I can't unless I

01:17:09 I mean

01:17:12 understand understand I mean what's what's what's driving that and

01:17:16 Well, how can other people want you if you don't want you?

01:17:20 How can other people love you if you don't love you? How can other people take delight in?

01:17:23 Well, they they can't yeah, they can't right and so if you let your parents

01:17:27 Narrative of sin and evil and so on if you let that

01:17:33 Grind the glory of your being into a fine old testament powder

01:17:40 Then won't all attempts to win a woman feel deep down like fraud

01:17:46 Yeah

01:17:52 And I I should go ahead I'm so sorry that i'm sorry

01:17:55 I was just gonna say I should specify that moralizing and stuff. That's that's 99 from my mom. My dad was was a different story

01:18:04 um

01:18:07 Are you really gonna try you're really gonna try the parent who got away on me

01:18:11 No, no, no, no, no, I wasn't going to say the parents who got away I was going to say something completely different

01:18:18 um, I basically he was I mean he

01:18:22 He was a

01:18:24 He was an alcoholic before and like used drugs before he ever met my mom

01:18:28 He was clean and sober like from the time like before I was born onward

01:18:33 but he had uh

01:18:35 he had a temper and

01:18:37 um

01:18:39 Long story short. Um, just to just to give you an example. I got caught with weed in high school and uh

01:18:46 later and it was a whole big thing and

01:18:50 Later on he uh, he told me that he had like basically smoked weed throughout my entire childhood behind

01:18:57 Everybody back and yet still punished me for doing it. Sorry. I thought you was so

01:19:02 I'm, sorry. I misunderstood something. I thought you said he was clean and sober before he met your mom

01:19:06 Oh, I clean yeah sober from alcohol and clean from all drugs except for marijuana

01:19:14 What are you talking about? You know how confusing that is?

01:19:19 Oh, i'm, sorry, my dad was clean and sober before he even met my mom and then later you say

01:19:24 He he was a weird addict over the course of my entire childhood. He's like what?

01:19:29 I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. I I apologize. I wasn't I wasn't

01:19:34 I wasn't being very clear, but no no, no, you were being completely contradictory and you weren't noticing it

01:19:40 And that's part of the dissociation. So this is automatic language, which means you're not even listening to yourself and i'm not criticizing, right?

01:19:47 But you're not listening to yourself

01:19:48 Yeah, you don't even seem to notice that within 10 seconds

01:19:51 You went from my dad was clean and sober before he even met my mom to he was a weed addict throughout my childhood

01:19:56 Yeah, I yeah that that just slipped my notice yeah, you're right

01:20:03 Well, no, but it may have you noticed these contradictions. I mean this can't be the first time you said this, right?

01:20:08 I mean you have this automatic

01:20:09 Speech have you not noticed that this narrative is completely contradictory?

01:20:13 I

01:20:15 I yeah, I did I didn't I didn't notice that right? So that means I never associated and you're in you're an automatic speech territory

01:20:25 Which means clean and sober is the language that comes from someone else and the lady you found out

01:20:30 That he was a drug addict when you were a kid, right?

01:20:34 And now do you know for how long he was a drug addict when you were a kid?

01:20:39 I I don't know. It could have been any amount of time. Uh

01:20:43 It could have been my entire childhood. It could have been uh, wait, so he's gonna hit 10 years. I was living at home

01:20:49 I don't know. Sorry. He hasn't he hasn't told you the truth about his addiction

01:20:52 He he might

01:20:59 I don't I don't remember exactly. Um, we we have we have talked about no, sorry stop saying exactly

01:21:08 Oh, yeah, I did it again, okay, stop it. What am I what am I asking?

01:21:12 Just take a deep breath. Try to relax. What am I asking?

01:21:14 A general idea of uh

01:21:19 My what i'm asking what i'm asking is your father said that he confessed to drug abuse when you were a child, right?

01:21:30 Yes

01:21:33 Now if somebody's going to confess to drug abuse

01:21:36 They need to tell you for how long it was because if it was like well, you know six months after you're born

01:21:41 I smoked some weed as opposed to you know, I smoked a bowl every day until you were 18

01:21:46 These are two vastly different situations, right?

01:21:48 Right

01:21:51 So he confessed that he was a drug abuser when you were a child, but childhood lasts for you know, 18 years

01:21:58 You know if you're going to get sentenced by a judge don't you want to know whether it's three months or 18 years

01:22:06 That the time for it means something so he's he he has not been honest with you about

01:22:11 How long he was addicted to the drugs for right?

01:22:14 Right, yeah, we we've talked about it a long time ago and I I got the impression it was like the majority of my childhood

01:22:25 Okay

01:22:28 So you've got

01:22:30 one parent your mother who's

01:22:32 Thundering old testament vengeance sin god

01:22:35 girl, and then you've got cloud of haze dissociated

01:22:39 weak-willed lying

01:22:42 manipulative hypocritical dad

01:22:44 Because he's punishing you. Yeah, he's punishing you for your moral transgressions

01:22:49 While high on weed

01:22:53 Right, well while doing the same thing that he's punishing me for well, even if he wasn't right even if he says to you son

01:23:01 son

01:23:03 You you lie, it's it's important to not lie, right?

01:23:07 But he's a drug addict, which means his entire life is founded on lying

01:23:11 It's not about you taking the drugs. It's about the whole damn thing

01:23:16 All of it

01:23:20 I mean addicts are chronic liars and then he gets mad at you for for lying

01:23:29 Right, holy crap, I mean that's almost inevitable right hypocrisy and drug addiction are two sides of the same coin

01:23:35 Did your mother know

01:23:40 I think he hid it from her for

01:23:44 Like like for most of the time I mean she found out at some point but I think he was like

01:23:51 I think he was like hiding it from her too

01:23:54 And did he smoke or how did he get his marijuana the marijuana into his system?

01:23:59 He he smoked it

01:24:03 How that as far as I know, I mean you can tell if someone's smoking marijuana on the block. Yeah, how do you hide it?

01:24:09 I mean like go I think he would do it in the garage just like or maybe when she wasn't home

01:24:16 uh that that kind of thing just just very evasively

01:24:21 Okay, but the smell lingers

01:24:25 How did he hide it and does that mean that he would smoke when he was in charge of little children

01:24:31 When your mother was not around

01:24:34 Yeah, he he I

01:24:38 I don't know. He he might have he like it's likely. Yeah

01:24:42 No, no, it's not more. It's more than likely

01:24:45 I mean if he would smoke when your mother wasn't around

01:24:49 She wouldn't always take the kids with her. So he would be

01:24:53 On drugs taking care of little boys

01:24:57 Am I wrong

01:25:10 Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean

01:25:12 You're you're right

01:25:14 I can't tell you how angry that makes me

01:25:16 Like I there are no words that I can't even tell you the level of anger that I have about that

01:25:22 It's so unbelievably irresponsible. It's so incredibly dangerous

01:25:27 Because you don't have the reaction times you don't have the concentration and you can't interact

01:25:34 With your children in a direct fashion like i'm trying i'm trying to figure out. Okay. Why is this guy so oblique?

01:25:39 Why is he so indirect?

01:25:41 Because you had a drug addict as a dad

01:25:44 So he couldn't be directing you because he's always hiding something and then now you grow up and it feels it feels to me like

01:25:50 You're always hiding something

01:25:52 Uh, yeah

01:25:54 And he lied to your mother and he lied to you

01:26:00 And he put you guys in danger parenting while high is like driving while drunk

01:26:05 Even if your kids don't suffer direct physical harm as the result of you being high

01:26:13 Constantly lying to your children and having to sneak out for smokes and clear it up and

01:26:20 You didn't smell anything kids or you know, like this just

01:26:23 an absolutely

01:26:26 False and completely screwed up environment

01:26:28 That's I mean that's beyond terrible and i'm i'm my throat is and and chest is tight with anger

01:26:37 Because he knew he was an addict and was he a religious man too

01:26:48 I mean nominally I he went to church

01:26:51 I'm sorry. I thought your parents taught you about the ten commandments and so on right?

01:26:57 Yeah

01:27:05 in church, I I guess I I shouldn't say my parents like sat me down and like

01:27:10 Instructed me personally on the ten commandments

01:27:14 I'm, sorry. I have a problem church. Hang on. Did they have a problem with you lying and stealing?

01:27:18 Yes, well, where does that come from if not thou shall not bear false witness and thou shall not steal

01:27:24 Sure, yeah, yeah, okay

01:27:29 so

01:27:32 Your father was bearing false witness

01:27:37 And your mother I assume was relatively attentive to the things that you did wrong

01:27:44 Yes

01:27:46 and when you stole i'm sure that your mother was really dug in to figure out what happened and

01:27:50 And where the money went and whether you were guilty like she probably dug in quite a bit to find these facts out, right?

01:27:56 Yeah, and she doesn't seem to have a clue

01:28:00 That the man she's leaving her children

01:28:02 Under the care and custody of is high as a kite

01:28:06 Is stoned

01:28:10 She doesn't notice where the money's going she doesn't notice the smell she's like what

01:28:14 So she's scanning you top to bottom like the tsa

01:28:17 And yet your dad is sitting in a drug slot and heap in the corner and she doesn't notice a thing

01:28:23 That can't be

01:28:25 I mean, it's like saying I have no idea whether my friend is drunk or not. What of course you do

01:28:30 You'd know the difference. Yeah at work if he showed up bombed out of his gourd, wouldn't you notice something?

01:28:38 Yeah, I mean she might have she might have just ignored it I mean just to avoid conflict

01:28:43 I mean, that's I think that's that's probably what was going on. Okay. So why would she ignore it to avoid conflict?

01:28:51 with your dad, but then

01:28:54 harass and bully you with all of your

01:28:56 imagined sins

01:28:59 Right. It's like holding me to a higher standard than an adult

01:29:03 Your father can be stoned and in charge of you

01:29:07 But boy, you better not take 40 bucks kid

01:29:10 Holy crap, man, that's vile

01:29:16 I'm holding you to account

01:29:21 Because you told a fib kid

01:29:24 But your dad can be stoned and i'm i'm sure he's was he probably stoned and driving from time to time, right?

01:29:30 Yeah, probably yeah

01:29:32 So that's fine. I I don't want to say anything to your dad who's driving you stoned

01:29:39 But boy you tell one fib to me kid it's over the knee for you

01:29:44 Oh my god, I like i'm sorry I feel a little like physically nauseous it's just so vile

01:29:51 I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry

01:29:58 You

01:30:00 Do they want you to get married and give them grandchildren

01:30:08 They don't they don't talk to me about it

01:30:16 It'll bring it up

01:30:19 I mean, it's the elephant in the room to me

01:30:21 Um, how's your brother doing with regards to dating and all of that?

01:30:26 He's he's doing really well he's he's married he has a he has a

01:30:31 six month year old or

01:30:34 She's she's a little older than that. But yeah, yeah, he's doing well

01:30:38 And does he circle back to give you a hand or is it basically the same as the 40 bucks?

01:30:42 He's one of the only he's one of the only people in my life that that talks to me about

01:30:48 about stuff like that

01:30:51 Right your vote your voice has gotten quite croaky and i'm a little disconcerted because this is your life and it seems like i'm the only

01:30:57 One who's upset. Oh

01:30:59 No, I mean

01:31:09 I mean i'm i'm upset. I mean

01:31:20 What's your relationship like with your parents, uh at the moment

01:31:23 Uh surface level no, I mean

01:31:28 Don't talk about anything important see them

01:31:32 Two times a month

01:31:36 And why don't you talk about anything important

01:31:39 I mean that's your choice, right?

01:31:43 It is and I don't because it

01:31:50 When i've tried to do it in the past, it just hasn't it hasn't led anywhere

01:31:53 uh

01:31:55 If I so that's something about no, that's passive again. What do you mean? It hasn't led anywhere?

01:32:01 There's no third party that drags your relationships around. It's just you and them

01:32:06 Right, so what do you where would it lead i'm not sure what you mean

01:32:11 It's like me saying it's like me saying I got a gym membership, but it didn't lead anywhere

01:32:19 Right. Yeah, I I mean I would like to I would like for it to lead to some kind of apology or admission

01:32:24 that

01:32:26 uh admission of wrongdoing or inadequacy as parents, but it it

01:32:31 It doesn't it hasn't

01:32:37 Okay, so tried to have so yeah, so they won't apologize so they punished you as a child

01:32:43 Not endlessly but a lot right for all of your misdeeds, right?

01:32:48 And then when you point out that they have misdeeds, they don't accept any responsibility

01:32:52 Any ownership and won't apologize. Is that right?

01:32:56 Basically zero, they're they're almost bottomless hypocritical bullies. So when they have power over you they'll punish you

01:33:04 Because they're so concerned about morality and integrity and truth and honesty and virtue

01:33:09 and godliness

01:33:12 but then when you point out that they've

01:33:14 Done some some real wrongs to you

01:33:17 They suddenly morality vanishes, they're not responsible for anything and they'll never apologize, right?

01:33:23 Right so

01:33:28 That's led somewhere hasn't it

01:33:32 I mean just because it hasn't led where you want it to lead doesn't mean it hasn't led anywhere

01:33:38 you now have people who

01:33:41 won't admit fault for any of the

01:33:43 Significant wrongs that they've done

01:33:46 You

01:33:48 So they don't take any moral responsibility while endlessly punishing you for your moral quote failings as a little boy

01:33:57 So they as adults

01:34:01 Can never be guilty of anything you?

01:34:03 As a five-year-old as a ten-year-old

01:34:05 Well, you've got to be punished for all of the things you just do wrong and bad and you've got to apologize and take ownership

01:34:10 But that's so important

01:34:15 One time I I when I was probably 18 I talked to them about like

01:34:20 About my frustration with them not really instructing

01:34:25 on on dating and relationships

01:34:28 and they

01:34:30 They like very tepidly sort of apologized and said well, maybe we we killed you as when you were a kid

01:34:37 So maybe we will have gotten out of them on on that front. Maybe we

01:34:41 Maybe we failed you

01:34:45 Okay, so that's just fog right

01:34:47 I'm sorry, what that's just fog

01:34:53 Right, yeah

01:34:57 And when did your father confess about his very conditions around your child?

01:35:00 When did your father confess about his drug addiction about your childhood?

01:35:03 When I was 19, I want to say

01:35:12 We we got into a conversation about it, okay, so so at 18

01:35:16 You say to your parents i'm having trouble connecting with people, right?

01:35:21 And your father knows why

01:35:27 Right you have trouble connecting with people because your father was stoned throughout your childhood

01:35:33 So your father knows the problem

01:35:39 When you're saying I I really I have trouble connecting with people your father knows why and doesn't say anything

01:35:46 Hmm I I had never thought of that. Maybe we failed you

01:35:55 Well son, one of the reasons you have trouble connecting with people is I was stoned throughout your childhood

01:36:00 Sorry about that, that's that's how I learned to relate to people

01:36:06 Right. I mean you can't have emotional contact with an addict because especially an addict who's lying to everyone

01:36:12 Because that's a 24/7 falsehood right you're dishonest. Yeah

01:36:20 You're lying about everything and the hypocrisy means you can't connect because he's punishing you for misdeeds

01:36:27 While being a secret drug addict himself, right?

01:36:29 Which is infinitely more important than anything you ever did as a kid

01:36:34 Hmm

01:36:36 So

01:36:40 what

01:36:42 What value are they bringing to your life if if they're just lying and misdirecting and not being honest and you still don't even know

01:36:48 the details of your father's drug addiction and

01:36:50 Any of that and they won't admit to any fault and other than this vaguely self-pitying and manipulative. Well, I guess we failed you

01:36:58 No details, no facts and they were lying even then

01:37:01 Has your father confessed to your mother about his drug addiction

01:37:07 Oh, she knows she knows it's a thing

01:37:12 Okay, that I don't know when she answered my question

01:37:15 Oh, oh, did he yeah, i'm sorry. Stop misinterpreting as he what i'm saying to her

01:37:20 Sorry, um

01:37:23 Has he confessed to her like directly about it? Probably not

01:37:27 Okay, so he's not said

01:37:30 I was a drug addict throughout

01:37:32 Our kids childhood and throughout most of our marriage

01:37:35 No, I seriously doubt that he's told her that I wouldn't know if he had but I seriously doubt it so he's still lying right

01:37:46 Yeah, but yeah, okay, why but she why do you want these hypocritical liars around why why would you be satisfied with that?

01:37:56 Why would you spend a couple of times a month of these empty conversations avoiding any facts truth?

01:38:01 honesty reality or virtue or integrity in the whole relationship

01:38:04 And then you're like, I don't know why I have trouble being close to people

01:38:12 Yeah

01:38:16 It's a good question because you're in the orbit of people who aren't really there morally and are hypocritical and liars and

01:38:22 Manipulators and still lying and still manipulating and still avoiding and still not taking any responsibility

01:38:27 You you want to bring a smart intelligent well-connected and moral and empathetic woman and over to your parents

01:38:40 Hey, here's the guy who was a drug addict and lied to me and and continues to lie about it to my family over the whole

01:38:46 Course of my childhood. Oh, and here's the woman who called me sinful for breathing

01:38:51 Because she was so concerned with morality that she left me in the care custody and control of a drug addict

01:38:57 Hey, let's have some lunch. Shall we?

01:39:01 What is the woman gonna say about that if she cares about you

01:39:05 I mean it doesn't it doesn't reflect well on me, I guess

01:39:14 Are you are you gonna go with still I guess have we made absolutely no progress? I'm feeling a certain amount of despair

01:39:21 about

01:39:22 It still feels like you're discussing the weather

01:39:25 Well, it doesn't reflect well on me I guess

01:39:30 It's costing you everything bro

01:39:35 It's costing you everything

01:39:42 And what did you not want to talk about the most when we started our call

01:39:50 Childhood that's right. That's right

01:39:53 And why didn't you want to talk about your childhood who didn't want you?

01:39:57 Talking about your parents didn't want me to talk about our childhood, right? So you're still in the grip of their power

01:40:04 You're still obeying them. You're still serving their

01:40:07 selfish needs

01:40:10 Which is why whenever I try to dig into

01:40:13 Any parental problems you got all kinds of foggy and misinterpreted everything, right?

01:40:18 Well, I can't remember exactly blah blah blah, right?

01:40:20 So you're still serving them because you're still scared of them because you're too scared and I

01:40:27 I don't mean this in any negative way. I completely

01:40:29 Understand it. I understand. Yeah, but I mean you

01:40:33 You don't want to be honest with them you you're too scared

01:40:38 To bring truth and reality to the relationship

01:40:41 You're too scared to disagree with them

01:40:45 Or rather they have implanted in that that fear in you because you being scared is easier than them being honest

01:40:51 Are you still a religious are you a religious man?

01:40:57 I'm i'm not okay

01:41:01 But you understand that participating in these dissociative falsehoods is not good for your parents

01:41:07 I mean, I assume you care. I still care about my mother. I assume you care

01:41:12 About your parents. So why would you want to participate in these avoidant falsehoods?

01:41:15 I mean that's bad for them bad for you, obviously, but it's

01:41:20 Bad for them now, they may prefer it. But so what?

01:41:23 You mean your dad preferred weed that was good for him

01:41:27 Yeah, yeah, it's it's bad for them because it it teaches them that

01:41:32 that people still

01:41:35 Associate with them even if they behave that way. Is that what you're saying?

01:41:39 it's bad for them because they live in unreality and they don't have to confront their conscience and they don't have to

01:41:45 Deal with the actual facts of what they did

01:41:48 So you see they're using you like your father used weed to dissociate from what they're doing and what they did

01:41:55 They're addicted to unreality and you are enabling that addiction to unreality

01:42:05 Your father was a drug addict and your mother was a tyrannical moral bully as far as I can

01:42:11 I'm not saying that's all they are

01:42:12 But as far as the stuff that impacts you and your capacity to pair bond

01:42:16 That's the most important things and if i've characterized them unfairly or incorrectly

01:42:21 You know, please let me know but you said 99%

01:42:25 Of the fear-mongering about sin and hell came from your mother, right?

01:42:29 Yeah

01:42:33 So your mother was a tyrannical moral bully and your father

01:42:35 Was a reality falsifying

01:42:38 hopeless drug addict, I mean to be addicted to weed throughout the entire course of your children's childhood is

01:42:44 beyond

01:42:47 Addiction almost right? That's almost like an obsession, right?

01:42:50 Yeah, yeah to be fair I don't I don't know if it was like a daily thing or not but

01:43:01 But yeah

01:43:03 And you and you'll never know you'll never know and i'll never know because he'll never tell the truth

01:43:08 And you certainly can't trust anything that he would say, right?

01:43:11 Right

01:43:15 So your parents are perfectly happy pretending everything's fine, even though it's costing you

01:43:19 Your dating life see that you

01:43:22 Devouring parents, right?

01:43:24 Serve our needs doesn't matter if you can't date doesn't matter if you can't connect doesn't matter if you don't like yourself doesn't matter

01:43:29 serve our needs

01:43:31 Lie to us, even though it disintegrates your entire fucking balls

01:43:35 Participate in our unreality no matter what costs to you that's greedy. That's destructive exploitive

01:43:44 Well

01:43:57 You

01:43:59 If if you can't have a conversation with your parents about your father's drug addiction

01:44:04 I don't know what point there is going over other than to just

01:44:08 waste more time

01:44:10 And your mother's moral bullying like it's not good to tell children they're going to hell

01:44:26 If they put one foot right

01:44:28 To be fair, I think I got that from

01:44:31 I think I put that together from going to church not from her telling me that

01:44:36 I as a child was going to go to hell if I

01:44:39 If I was not good enough

01:44:42 Okay, I think that was just I get that I get that quick question though brother. I want to be a quick question

01:44:47 Yeah, what was that? I want to be fair to your mother as well

01:44:49 Who chose the church and brought you to the church and exposed you to the teachings my mom? Okay

01:44:55 Oh, look at that. We're done, right?

01:44:57 If your mom outsourced the you'll burn in hell stuff

01:45:03 That doesn't make her not responsible

01:45:06 And if she heard that speech, she should have sat down with you and said listen

01:45:09 I I don't accept that children. Don't don't go to hell. I don't want you to worry too much blah blah, right?

01:45:13 She's responsible for what you're exposed to right, right

01:45:24 And

01:45:26 She sure didn't contradict it and somehow

01:45:28 Well, so what was the 99 90 percent of the sin stuff? What would she say?

01:45:33 If it wasn't about hell, I mean, I obviously you you were there. I wasn't so I accept that but what was she saying?

01:45:40 Like about

01:45:44 About a punishment for sin you mean i'm sorry

01:45:46 Yeah, you said 99 of the sort of sin talk and punishment talk that was religious came from your mother not your father

01:45:54 And so what was she saying that would fall into those categories the 99?

01:45:59 Oh, I mean

01:46:06 Just don't don't do these things because the bible says they're bad that basically I mean it's not

01:46:14 Not anything particularly deep

01:46:17 I mean

01:46:20 Okay, so she would say you're sinning according to the bible and she took you to a church that said sinners go to hell

01:46:26 Yeah, and and you have to accept jesus christ into your heart to

01:46:35 As your savior to uh to be saved. Okay. Got it. So

01:46:42 If you talk to your parents about the drug addiction and then they start

01:46:49 Lying or falsifying and you say no. No, come on thou shalt not bear false witness

01:46:53 You have to tell the truth and why didn't you tell the truth? Why didn't you get help?

01:46:56 Why didn't you realize you had an addiction?

01:46:58 Like why did you lie throughout my childhood and teaching me that lying is a sin that you go to hell?

01:47:02 Like what would they say?

01:47:05 What would they say if I walked in and said that to them today, yeah

01:47:10 You

01:47:12 Just vague things like well that was

01:47:24 That was a long time ago we can't change the past why are you bringing this up stuff like that

01:47:32 Okay, probably so okay. Let's let's do this role play. Okay, so okay. So then they say well it's important

01:47:40 to me that

01:47:41 You and dad in particular were lying to me throughout my entire childhood

01:47:45 And lying to mom about your drug addiction

01:47:48 While punishing me for lying and by the way also punishing me for trying weed

01:47:53 when you were

01:47:55 a chronic

01:47:56 addict of weed

01:47:58 Right, that's not good and we need to talk about it because it makes my whole childhood feel like a lie

01:48:03 That you guys were punishing me

01:48:05 for things that

01:48:08 You were doing far worse, right? That's that's hypocritical, isn't it?

01:48:12 I'm sorry. I'm

01:48:24 I'm sorry. I'm joint. This is tough

01:48:29 Well, so they would say well, but it is a long time ago, right

01:48:37 Yeah, yeah, right and so so then it should be easy to talk about

01:48:41 Right because it was so long ago. It doesn't matter that much. So it should be easy to talk about right?

01:48:45 Right like you if somebody's just had a car crash it's pretty traumatic and they're still in shock, right?

01:48:52 If it's if it's 30 years later, they should be able to talk about the car crash because it was so long ago

01:48:57 Right and and as to why i'm bringing this up. What does that matter?

01:49:02 I want to talk about it. It matters to me. It's important to me

01:49:07 And the fact that it is important to me should make it important to you

01:49:09 Because your parents you claim to love me and I have some complaints and they're legitimate complaints

01:49:14 And you know when I was a kid when I stole 40 bucks

01:49:18 And you didn't find out about it for a couple of days. I didn't get to say well

01:49:21 There's just days ago. There's no need to talk about it. Now. It's in the past, right?

01:49:25 So I was never allowed the excuse of well

01:49:28 It's a long time ago or some time ago because you know when you're a little kid a couple of days

01:49:32 It seems like quite a while

01:49:34 So yeah, I I do want to talk about it because I think it's important and I I still don't know like dad, you know, I mean

01:49:41 Exactly. How often did you smoke?

01:49:43 How did you pay for it? Did you buy it from criminals?

01:49:46 Were you supporting drug dealers in the very town that your children grew up in?

01:49:49 Did you drive with us? Hi. Did you take care of us? Hi. How did you hide it from mom?

01:49:54 Ma, how did you not know like these are important questions because this drug addiction and the moral sin go to hell stuff

01:50:01 Was pretty much defining my childhood and we don't talk about it. Well, I need to talk about it

01:50:06 so

01:50:10 We're gonna talk about it or i'm getting up and walking out

01:50:15 You

01:50:17 And if you think that these problems in my upbringing don't have anything to do with why i'm still single

01:50:37 Well, you're wrong it has so much to do with why i'm still still single

01:50:44 Growing up with a hysterically punitive mother and a drug addict father has an effect

01:50:50 And we need to talk about it because i'm not going to just hang around here and talk about the weather and sports and nonsense

01:50:58 Because we need to I I don't that's lying like you

01:51:02 For me avoiding these topics is lying

01:51:05 And you know boy, if there's one thing you taught me it's not to lie. Well, i'm not lying anymore

01:51:10 I'm not going to participate in these lies that everything's fine

01:51:12 And we don't have anything to talk about and there was never any problem

01:51:15 No trouble, no problems. No addiction. No you're going to hell stuff

01:51:19 Right. So, you know, I guess I guess I guess i'm finally listening to your commandments to not bear false witness and to not lie

01:51:27 Because now I want us to talk about the truth

01:51:30 And because you punished me a lot for lying

01:51:33 You're going to talk about this now because it's the truth and we don't want to lie right because lying is bad

01:51:40 That's what I was always told. So let's

01:51:42 Tell the truth

01:51:44 Because that's the value right?

01:51:46 That's how you get to heaven and I don't I don't want you guys going to hell

01:51:49 Look, i'm not a strict believer myself. I don't want you guys going to hell

01:51:52 so I don't want you to bear false witness, I don't want you to lie and avoid and prevaricate and

01:51:56 Dissociate and fog and right pretend that everything's fine when it's not that's no good

01:52:02 Right, that's that's breaking a foundational commandment to not bear false witness

01:52:06 So let's have an honest conversation about my childhood

01:52:10 You

01:52:12 If I if I said that to them my dad would probably

01:52:22 You'd probably just get angry really fast. Sure

01:52:26 Sure, so he so you're punished you're punished for telling the truth and you're punished for lying

01:52:32 Right

01:52:35 Okay, so so he gets angry, right?

01:52:37 Say okay, so so mister so he gets angry you say oh, oh dad, you're you're angry

01:52:41 You who was a lying?

01:52:45 drug addict

01:52:47 Throughout my childhood. No, no, sorry. Sorry. Hold on. Hold on. I'll tell you exactly what he would do. He would get angry

01:52:54 and or

01:52:56 he would

01:52:57 Read he would say something about how bad his childhood was and how mine was an improvement on that

01:53:03 Fantastic and then I would say so dad then you can go and have a conversation with your parents

01:53:07 I'm having this conversation with you and this conversation is about me not you

01:53:11 So let's learn just try and try crawl out of the narcissism dad and and and focus on me

01:53:16 I'm right here right here right in front of you

01:53:19 So we're talking about me not you

01:53:21 You were a drug addict throughout my childhood and you lied to everyone about it

01:53:31 Continually

01:53:32 Well, I wasn't really an addict. I mean, it's just it's just a little bit of weed

01:53:36 It's not it's not the same thing as being addicted to coke

01:53:39 or something

01:53:41 Okay. So if I say you robbed a convenience store and you say well, that's not the same as robbing a bank

01:53:45 So what did you rob the convenience store? Did you use drugs?

01:53:49 And lie about it when I was a child

01:53:56 Well, I smoked a little bit of weed but it's not it's it's not the same thing as as being a full-on drug addict

01:54:01 Did you functional I still provided for you? Did you use drugs and lie about it? Yes or no?

01:54:07 Did you use drugs and lie about it when I was a child?

01:54:22 Well, I didn't I didn't yes or no dad did you

01:54:25 Use drugs and lie about it when I was a child lie to me like a brother. Okay, like a mom

01:54:31 Like a mom. Did you did you?

01:54:33 Did you use drugs and lie to everyone about it when I was a child?

01:54:37 I guess I lied about it sometimes sure but but that's I just I needed something to to help me get through the day

01:54:45 So

01:54:49 You did use drugs and lie about it

01:54:52 As a child so you lied pretty continually throughout my childhood and punished me for lying

01:55:01 Do you understand that's pretty hypocritical right if you're lying to mom lying to me lying to my brother

01:55:17 And then punishing me punishing me for lying lying about inconsequential kid stuff when you're lying about using drugs

01:55:24 Do you not does that not strike you as a little bit on the hypocritical side

01:55:30 You know how bad I had it when I was a kid my parents no, no, no we're talking about me

01:55:38 No, we're talking about me not you

01:55:40 Do you understand that for you

01:55:43 to lie to everyone about

01:55:45 using drugs

01:55:47 And then punish me for lying about inconsequential kid stuff is really hypocritical

01:55:51 He would be in full-on like temper tantrum mode

01:55:58 At that point. Okay

01:56:00 So then I would say dad if you abuse me i'm getting up and walking out

01:56:05 And do not cross your fingers and hope

01:56:08 About when i'm coming back

01:56:10 I will not put up with it. You will not yell at me. You will not intimidate me. You will not raise your voice

01:56:15 You will not threaten me

01:56:17 You can storm out you could do you can do whatever you want

01:56:19 I'm, just telling you the consequences of abusing me will be I get up. I walk the fuck out

01:56:24 And do not hold your breath for when i'm coming back

01:56:28 I will not be yelled at

01:56:34 For asking questions about my childhood

01:56:38 I have the right to do that. You were my parents

01:56:43 I have the right to ask questions about my childhood and point out some hypocrisies

01:56:46 Because you guys spent a lot of my childhood pointing out where I had done wrong and gone wrong

01:56:52 Okay, so i'm pointing it out now

01:56:55 And if you are the kind of people who can only bully children, but can't be even asked basic questions as an adult

01:57:00 I can't tell you how little respect I will have for you

01:57:03 That you're fine bullying children

01:57:05 But when your children grow up and ask you some tough questions you start having temper tantrums like you're some toddler

01:57:11 Like are you kidding me?

01:57:13 How pathetic is that that you bully children and can't handle any difficult questions as when they grow up?

01:57:19 That makes me so humiliated that you just pushed me around and bullied me and yelled at me and punished me and spanked me and

01:57:26 all of that

01:57:29 Because you know, it's really important to be tough in pursuit of virtue. You got to be tough

01:57:33 And then what you have some toddler tantrum when i'm asking you some tough questions as an adult

01:57:39 I

01:57:41 Mean are you kidding me?

01:57:44 That's just you're just pathetic people who bully children if that's the case. So sit the hell down and let's have a conversation

01:57:50 Yeah, he would he would be really pissed and my mom would be

01:58:08 Trying to diffuse the situation i'd say to mom mom. Did you know that he was using drugs when throughout my childhood?

01:58:15 I I don't know what you'd say. I mean, I I don't know when she found out if she said no I had no idea

01:58:31 Then be like well how?

01:58:33 Dissociated with you that you didn't even know that your husband was stoned or not

01:58:37 Like come on and then she even if she admitted any kind suspected blah blah blah. It's like, okay. Well

01:58:42 Did you leave the house?

01:58:45 Knowing that you had a drug addict on your hands. Did you leave the house and leave us in his care?

01:58:48 Well, yes. Okay. So then you put us in significant danger

01:58:51 I mean there was some random danger in that he could have been inattentive if we fell or hurt ourselves or whatever, right?

01:58:57 Or you know

01:58:58 One of the reasons you need to stay sober when you're parenting is your kids can hurt themselves and they need to be driven to

01:59:03 the hospital

01:59:04 And you can't be drunk or stoned or anything like that, right?

01:59:06 and

01:59:10 It and even if it wasn't anything that direct the indirect thing is you

01:59:14 Putting somebody who's high on drugs in charge of children, which is very bad for the children's psychological

01:59:18 And emotional development, right?

01:59:21 Right so

01:59:29 They got some things to answer for and if they can't handle any tough questions, then i'm afraid my friend they were just bullies

01:59:35 They were just bullies who can dish it out to children. We can't take it

01:59:38 They were bullies who punished children

01:59:41 For completely minor misdeeds

01:59:45 And then their major flaws as parenting. They can't take any criticism at all

01:59:50 They're just petty bullies in that case

01:59:53 And I mean, it's your life, right? It's your life, but just know

01:59:58 That there's a huge price to be paid in your soul your heart or your capacity to pair bond

02:00:02 if you just run around appeasing petty bullies because

02:00:06 You're frightened to be honest

02:00:09 And I get the fear i'm not I mean the fear is real and i'm not

02:00:12 You know, it's not cowardly to have the fear at all and it's a big fear and I understand it kind of goes against that

02:00:17 programming too, but

02:00:19 You know, you've listened to this show for close to half a decade. So, you know this thing that if you lie

02:00:26 To your parents you can't tell the truth to anyone

02:00:28 Yeah

02:00:33 And you have as a disaster scenario you have as a disaster scenario

02:00:42 What if they blow up and they attack me and they they're petty and immature and storm out and this and that and the other is?

02:00:46 Like well, then you've just you got your answer

02:00:48 But these are people who will who will never ever allow you to tell the truth to them and they will punish you

02:00:55 For any honesty and authenticity and directness with them

02:00:58 Okay, but then you can make your choice

02:01:01 But at least get the facts right? You're just avoiding the facts, right?

02:01:04 Like your father was avoiding whatever he was dealing with whatever your father was dealing with. He was avoiding with weed

02:01:09 And what's going on in your life? You're avoiding with compliance, right?

02:01:13 It's still an addiction right it's an addiction to compliance and falsification lying

02:01:23 Your father was lying about his drug abuse and your drug abuse is lying in a way

02:01:27 And I have sympathy all of that

02:01:34 I'm sorry

02:01:37 I was just gonna ask you something when you say compliance you're you mean both compliance with them like in my relationship with my parents

02:01:44 and also

02:01:45 just compliance with

02:01:47 The behaviors they taught me in my relationships with other people as well. Is that is that what you're saying?

02:01:53 I don't know the second category

02:01:55 But compliance is okay. Is it will it be of benefit to you to have an honest conversation with your parents about your childhood?

02:02:03 It would be yes, okay, so it would be of benefit to you

02:02:07 Do your parents want you to do that? Do they want you to bring these topics up?

02:02:13 No, no, so then you are complying with your parents avoidance rather than that which is beneficial to you

02:02:19 Which is beta and weak and sensed by women

02:02:22 That you will comply to bullies rather than be honest

02:02:27 That you will be pushed around and minimized and evaporated and dismissed and avoided

02:02:35 And you will go along with that rather than make bullies uncomfortable women will never feel safe with a guy like that

02:02:43 Because some bully is going to come along who's going to step into your parents role and push you around too

02:02:49 Like I think the woman that you're looking for needs a strong man

02:03:01 And if you are at the age of 30 still being bullied by your parents and complying with their dysfunction

02:03:12 You're not going to be perceived as a strong man

02:03:14 But you don't want a woman who's attracted to a weak man because then she's going to bully you too

02:03:21 And so you're stuck right?

02:03:22 You can't get the strong woman

02:03:24 Because she's going to perceive you as weak and you don't want the weak woman because you don't want to be bullied

02:03:28 Or to write another way a woman who values your weakness would value it because she can push you around and you don't want that

02:03:37 A woman who does not value your weakness will not be attracted to you because you're still complying with your parents bullying

02:03:44 So you got no one

02:03:47 And you can either say well i'm gonna be a guy who's going to be pushed around forever

02:03:55 So i'll just choose some woman who's going to bully me like my parents, but you don't want that right?

02:04:00 so then you got to find

02:04:04 A strong woman, but a strong woman is gonna

02:04:06 smell this, you know subservience and compliance and weakness now, it's one thing if you're 18 19 20

02:04:12 Or your parents are still paying for university, but you're 30 years old

02:04:15 When do you stand up for

02:04:22 Your life for you for what's actually happened to you when when when do you give yourself permission to tell the truth?

02:04:27 Like i'm, sorry if telling the truth annoys the drug addict dad or the morally bullying mom. Oh, gee, that's so bad

02:04:34 That's so terrible. I'm, i'm, sorry, but maybe they shouldn't have been I don't know a drug addict and a morally bullying mom

02:04:39 Maybe that's that maybe that's the answer

02:04:41 But you complying

02:04:44 Is fine, I guess it just means you can't

02:04:46 date

02:04:48 Sorry, what was the last

02:04:52 Thing you said you can't what fine I can't tell you what to do. I'm just giving you costs and benefits

02:04:57 I get that they're benefits to complying with your parents

02:04:59 But the cost is you can't date

02:05:02 You

02:05:04 Because women sense that

02:05:10 Compliance to bullies within you and they don't want that it's not safe

02:05:14 To be vulnerable and have kids and be dependent upon a man

02:05:18 Who can be bullied at the age of 30 by mommy and daddy?

02:05:21 Yeah, they don't they don't bully me

02:05:25 Present day they do. I mean, no, they absolutely do. Come on, man

02:05:30 Come on, of course they do. Otherwise, why otherwise, why are you lying about everything? Why are you

02:05:35 Conforming with this empty conversation? There's nothing burger. This nonsense this avoidance

02:05:40 Why would you comply with that when you've got serious and important questions about your childhood? Of course, they're bullying you

02:05:45 Because in the role play, what did your dad do when I started being honest?

02:05:50 Just evade

02:05:54 No, what did he do get angry? Yeah, he bullied get angry. He jumped up. He got angry

02:05:59 He got he escalated, right?

02:06:01 So he's bullying you

02:06:04 I mean, come on, man

02:06:17 If you suddenly found out there was some objective way if you suddenly found out that i'd been a weed addict throughout my daughter's entire

02:06:24 Childhood, what would happen to your respect for me?

02:06:28 It would it would drop significantly, yeah

02:06:32 You know relationships are infectious if you don't want your parents marriage hanging around your parents and avoiding the truth

02:06:54 Means that what are you going to date for?

02:06:58 You

02:07:00 If your parents marriage is good then yeah hang around with them if it's bad and it is bad

02:07:05 given how the parenting went and given how distant they were that

02:07:08 One was a drug addict. The other claims to not even know that's pretty bad, right?

02:07:12 Then what what are you hanging around a marriage for where you can't be honest and and it's not a marriage that you want

02:07:21 And it's a marriage you'd probably if you woke up in your father's position or your mother's position

02:07:24 You'd consider it you'd already died and gone to hell, right?

02:07:28 Yeah

02:07:30 Yeah, um

02:07:37 I don't know. I I don't want to cut them out of my life completely, but i'm

02:07:44 Did I say anything? Yeah, I mean, hang on. No, hang on. Hang on. No

02:07:49 No, see you got to stay in this conversation because this is why you get ghosted

02:07:52 This is absolutely why you get ghosted because you're having some fucking conversation with yourself that barely involves me

02:07:58 Uh-huh

02:08:00 Did I say anything about that?

02:08:02 No

02:08:04 No, you didn't

02:08:06 Now if you are concerned that if you're honest with them

02:08:09 They're going to act in such an ugly and abusive fashion that you don't want them around. Okay, that's one thing

02:08:14 But you

02:08:17 You don't cut people out of your life. That's not how it works

02:08:19 You're not just some arbitrary guy like stalin sending people to concentration camps

02:08:25 Right, you're honest with people and if they attack you for being honest, it becomes unbearable after a while

02:08:31 And you have that choice

02:08:33 That you can either shut up and pretend you never said anything and go back to being meek little armadillo guy

02:08:38 Or you can continue to tell the truth and hope that they are just and if they continue to attack you and and berate

02:08:44 You and abuse you for telling the truth then at some point it just might be unbearable

02:08:47 Like you just don't want to talk to them anymore

02:08:49 Right. It's not that's not like a choice. Oh, I just I was cutting people out of my life

02:08:54 I see what you're saying

02:08:56 Like you're just honest with people and if they abuse you for being honest at some point it may become unbearable

02:09:02 It probably will be right but that's on them

02:09:04 Yeah, yeah, I I just jumped to that for some reason i'm sorry, uh

02:09:16 Well, no, that's the threat. Yeah, that's so that's so you're so you're so used to being threatened

02:09:22 That the way that you manage yourself is through threats

02:09:24 Well, if I if i'm honest then i'm just gonna i'm gonna cut in the matter of my life well, that's not that's that's unacceptable

02:09:32 So I guess I won't be honest, right? That's just not having any commitment to honor

02:09:36 That's just scaring yourself with bullying consequences like your mom going to hell or the priest or whoever right?

02:09:40 Yeah

02:09:45 Yeah, don't bully yourself man you have a commitment to honesty and you see what happens, right

02:09:50 Maybe they'll respond positively. Maybe it'll be a huge breakthrough. Maybe there'll be wonderful things you're in therapy

02:09:55 So you can have a therapist help you manage that or you can you know get back to the therapist if you're not currently in therapy

02:10:00 so

02:10:01 You can do all of these but just you just have a commitment to honesty, right?

02:10:04 Because women can not only sense that you're being bullied women can sense that you don't have a commitment to honesty

02:10:18 And no woman wants to get involved with a guy

02:10:20 No woman of quality wants to get involved with a guy who doesn't have a commitment to honesty

02:10:24 Right

02:10:29 Because he can't be trusted

02:10:32 Yeah, I see what you're saying

02:10:36 And I mean this can't be surprising to you I mean obviously i've had a commitment to honesty damn the consequences, right

02:10:46 Yeah, yeah, it's so you know, you're gonna get that advice from me and that's that's why you called right

02:10:51 Yeah

02:10:57 Because there's no way to be proud of yourself without a commitment to honesty

02:11:04 And if you're proud of yourself

02:11:09 Genuinely like

02:11:12 Self-respect based upon a commitment to honesty despite the fact that it's tough in the world to be honest and particularly in your situation

02:11:18 Then you have great pride in yourself

02:11:21 You're proud

02:11:22 Honestly, I I I mean I take delight in myself. I enjoy being in my own brain. It's a wonderful great place to be

02:11:28 and

02:11:30 part of that pride comes from like i've just i've told the truth and i've obviously been

02:11:34 Beaten all up and down the alley for telling the truth

02:11:37 But I stuck with it and I never disavowed anything that I knew to be true

02:11:40 And I kind of gritted my teeth and I hung in there. This is true in my personal relationships

02:11:44 It's true in my sort of public life and so on. So I I you know, I can't do better than that

02:11:49 I I just that that's the best that I can do

02:11:52 And I have pride in what I did and this was of course, you know, 25 years ago when I confronted my parents

02:11:59 Um, I said a little little older than you but when I confronted my parents and told them the truth and asked questions and and

02:12:07 cross-examined them in a sense

02:12:09 That you know, it was not fun

02:12:11 It was not fun. I did it a couple of times and it got worse each time

02:12:14 And then I was like, I don't want to do this anymore

02:12:17 But i'm also not going to go back to I can't go back to lying like it's too weird to go back to lying

02:12:21 Because now i've told the truth, right?

02:12:23 so

02:12:24 right

02:12:26 So then there's just pride in that like yeah, I told the truth

02:12:31 I I told the truth. I was honest and you know, my parents messed it up and that's on them not on me

02:12:37 And there's just a great deal of

02:12:41 A pride in that and and honor, right?

02:12:44 I mean the guy who runs away from a battle is not considered particularly honorable a guy who stands and fights

02:12:50 Even if the odds seem overwhelming is considered heroic, right? So how do you become a hero?

02:12:54 Well, we don't have dragons to fight but we can at least tell the truth to people in our lives

02:12:59 We can take that battle on and and emerge victorious and you can't lose once you tell the truth. You can't lose

02:13:04 You keep thinking there's an outcome that conditions whether it's worth telling the truth or not, but you

02:13:09 you tell the truth you can't lose I

02:13:12 I my only choice was to tell the truth and then watch my parents do what they did or

02:13:16 To just continue to lie to everyone about everything all the time

02:13:19 And never be real and never be honest and never be direct

02:13:23 And you know that had such a ripple effect on my relationships. I was like or lack of relationships. Really?

02:13:28 I was like, oh god

02:13:30 Because the only person you're close to is the walking wounded guy at work, right?

02:13:34 But you want to start getting close to people who are strong and confident, right

02:13:39 Right

02:13:43 Yeah, I hadn't I hadn't noticed that

02:13:47 Just connect with people over over negative

02:13:51 Over negative emotions basically, right and you know, I mean it's nice what you're doing for the guy

02:13:56 I'm sure it's helpful and so on and there's nothing wrong with it, but

02:13:58 It's not it's not all like that. We have it's yeah, that's just one thing but right

02:14:05 So, yeah, I mean I think I think that's your

02:14:10 That's your cross to bear that you're bridged across is to be honest

02:14:15 with your family

02:14:18 Again it's a choice i'm not telling you to do it. I'm just saying that there's there's costs and benefits to

02:14:26 I I want to make the costs and benefits clear, right?

02:14:28 Yeah, yeah

02:14:33 It's like all these people who say well, of course

02:14:40 You've got to buy a house because you've your rent you're just throwing your money away. It's like, okay

02:14:43 well

02:14:44 What if you had taken the down payment on a house and put it into bitcoin in 2013 would that have been?

02:14:48 Would it have been smart to rent then now you can buy 50 houses, right?

02:14:52 So I I just want to point out the sort of costs and benefits that there's a huge price to be paid

02:14:56 For falsifying your entire existence in your primary relationships

02:14:59 Okay

02:15:03 Yeah, I see that

02:15:05 Because then you think to be close to people you have to not be yourself

02:15:11 And not be honest and not be direct. So you end up talking about poker

02:15:20 Yeah, just surface level stuff, yeah the way the way I hang around people is

02:15:25 Falsify

02:15:29 Surface level nonsense and that's that's not going to be attractive because women need a very deep connection

02:15:34 in order to

02:15:37 Uh, really trust a guy and and commit and surrender. I mean she's going to surrender her life her womb her attractiveness

02:15:42 So figure her right all's going to go up in the flame of her passion for the guy, right? So

02:15:49 Right

02:15:51 All right, how are we doing

02:15:55 Yeah, that's that's

02:15:59 very useful, um

02:16:01 I think i'm gonna i'm gonna have to have a conversation with them at some point coming up

02:16:05 At some point is vague as well

02:16:09 Yeah, i'm not saying you have to determine a date right now but at some point is going to end up with procrastination and delay and

02:16:18 You know, here's the thing man every day you delay becoming real and honest in your life

02:16:23 Is the day that the woman of your dreams might walk by?

02:16:26 You don't have forever. You're 30 years old

02:16:29 Right. So every day like there's a woman on a conveyor belt. Who's the perfect woman for you?

02:16:35 Maybe there's more than one

02:16:37 And every day you delay could be delay. She passes by

02:16:40 There's a price to procrastination as well

02:16:45 You

02:16:47 Because if you throw things in the bucket of soon it almost inevitably becomes never

02:16:58 So again, that was just uh, you know, I would suggest a deadline

02:17:07 That's that's a good idea

02:17:12 I think you're right about the procrastination. Yeah

02:17:16 All right, man, well listen, I hope you'll keep me posted about how it's going and I really really do appreciate the call today

02:17:23 It's a great job. And I really do appreciate you taking the uh, the coaching you did did wonderfully with that

02:17:28 Thanks steph, I appreciate your time i'll let you know

02:17:32 Yeah, keep me posted and I certainly wish you the very best and do say hi to your brother for me and tell him

02:17:36 Congratulations on his baby

02:17:39 Thanks, we'll do thanks man. Bye

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