‘Outlook Talks’ hosts an engaging dialogue with Professor N Sukumar from Delhi University, delving into the recent elections.
The discussion illuminates the rise of social justice and caste as key issues, the role of civil society organisations in shaping narratives, and the significance of reservations and citizenship rights. It advocates for a broader understanding of social justice beyond electoral politics.
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#LokSabhaElections2024 #Caste #CivilSociety #Rights #Justice
The discussion illuminates the rise of social justice and caste as key issues, the role of civil society organisations in shaping narratives, and the significance of reservations and citizenship rights. It advocates for a broader understanding of social justice beyond electoral politics.
Follow us:
Website: https://www.outlookindia.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Outlookindia
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/outlookindia/
X: https://twitter.com/Outlookindia
Whatsapp: https://whatsapp.com/channel/0029VaNrF3v0AgWLA6OnJH0R
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@OutlookMagazine
Dailymotion: https://www.dailymotion.com/outlookindia
#LokSabhaElections2024 #Caste #CivilSociety #Rights #Justice
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NewsTranscript
00:00 Hello and welcome to Outlook Talks. This is a series of conversations that we are having
00:15 with very interesting people from academia, scholars, writers, politicians, thinkers to
00:22 discuss what the election that have just happened, you know the campaign that has just gone through
00:26 and what you know what might what are the various issues that were there in these elections.
00:30 So today we have with us a very interesting personality. We have Professor N. Sukumar,
00:36 teaches political science in Delhi University and an author of many books on caste. Thank
00:40 you very much, Professor for joining us and my colleague Abhik who is here also who has
00:46 travelled extensively for the election this time. So he will bring his perspective from
00:50 the ground. So actually Professor Sukumar in this election, really speaking now that
00:55 it has been such a long drawn campaign, you know social justice and caste which we did
01:01 not think at least many of us did not think that it is going to be such an important issue
01:06 in the elections has in the last 6-7 weeks been right on top there from both the opposition
01:12 and the ruling party. Would you agree? I mean is that right?
01:17 Yeah, of course, you know when it comes to the social justice issues, first time in the
01:23 history of the electoral politics in India. I would like to start from there rather than
01:29 this 6 weeks you know last 4-5 phases. First time probably this the social justice issue
01:38 has become a major significant concern of the politics, the parties which believed in
01:48 the democratic setup. So therefore what I am saying, I am trying to clearly differentiate
01:54 the political parties which argued for social justice and like India bloc whereas you know
02:03 BJP which did not never used any such kind of term social justice in its manifesto. Though
02:12 it talks about schedule caste, schedule tribe and other things. So therefore, first time
02:18 in the history of electoral politics in post independent India, social justice has become
02:24 a major debate and it is a very interesting shift which I can see from now. That is one
02:31 point.
02:32 Coming to 2024 elections, yes, first 2 phases of election there was not much debate on.
02:41 Though issues like caste census and many other things were there in the beginning, from the
02:45 beginning but the discourse has changed after 2 phases of election and social justice has
02:53 become a major one point agenda of the 2024 election. I can see that.
03:01 In fact, you know this is one of the few areas where the opposition is leading the narrative.
03:07 You know that is what one felt that usually it is following. You know in any other, on
03:12 any other thing it is usually a sort of a reaction to something. But in this it seems
03:17 that the India bloc that is has set up the narrative of you know of reservations, of
03:23 caste, of social justice in this.
03:26 Well, there are many, many forces. I do not see it is only political parties. Like you
03:33 know I am being part of Bharat Jodh Abhiyan.
03:37 I see.
03:38 Yeah, so you know it is civil society organizations which pushed this agenda much more vociferously,
03:49 much more forcibly into the debate either through social media or different kind of
03:56 things and also because of that kind of you know push it was the India bloc which adopted
04:03 these kind of strategies. For example, we are working for the past one year to how to
04:08 set the narrative, how to set the agenda of social justice particularly you know in the
04:12 context of you know moving in different you know corners.
04:15 So therefore, not only the Congress, if you, I mean I was going through the day Congress
04:23 has came out with its manifesto. The first point which talks about equity and then within
04:31 equity social justice. And not only Congress but also many India Alliance partners has
04:36 come out very clearly about the issue of social justice.
04:41 So as you were saying sir, that civil society organizations have even worked for this, toward
04:46 this agenda. I was trying to think through that it was in 1990s when after the Mandal
04:53 Commission, Mandal Commission implementation reports, implementation. Don't you think at
04:58 that point of time at the very social justice politics, in electoral politics it was some,
05:04 it had some sort of relevance because as you were saying this is the first time. Don't
05:07 you think even in 1990s politics witnessed this emergence of all the social justice parties
05:13 and this. How is it different from now and then? How are you interlocking it?
05:18 See, what Christopher Jaffrelait calls it as India's silent revolution. From 1980s to
05:22 1990s, it was that you know the mobilization of other backward castes. And also from 1970s
05:34 itself when government has completely given up on the social justice agenda, implementation
05:40 of reservations, particularly in the context of schedule caste and schedule tribes, whoever
05:43 the government you know before that. So it was like all these groups coming together
05:48 and they saw that you know I mean there is a complete conspiracy by the BJP where the
05:57 lower castes, particularly other backward caste, schedule caste are trying to unite
06:01 themselves for their own identity politics where it turned towards to be their long term
06:07 political agenda and also which turns it into social and economic you know benefits.
06:13 The Mandal also happened, Kamandal, sorry Mandal and Kamandal you know 1990s. So they
06:19 even at that point of time they tried to sabotage the mobilization of the lower caste and they
06:25 brought, they tried to sabotage Mandal you know this thing. But yes, Mandal commission
06:30 has given a new discourse towards to the social justice politics. And now, and it has, so
06:39 therefore what BJP did, BJP tried to mobilize the lower OBC groups, like for example in
06:45 UP, Kalyan Singh, it was the BJP's agenda to bring the other than Yadav, non-Yadav,
06:53 non-Yadav, non-Yadav combo. So they tried to mobilize these groups and try to accommodate
06:58 them you know what Professor Ram Reddy used to call the concept in the politics of accommodation.
07:04 You know you try to accommodate the people who never represented in the you know political
07:09 sphere. So BJP started its strategy with that where Congress failed partly and other regional
07:16 parties also failed. Even in fact BSP and also SP for that matter, they failed. In fact
07:23 you know even DMK which is much more you know based on you know justice and other kind of
07:29 you know ideological concerns. But it also failed in protecting you know the concerns
07:36 of you know Dalits or Scheduled Caste. So you know that time the social justice politics
07:42 has you know different kind of you know understanding. But there is a continuity.
07:48 There is a continuity.
07:50 There is a continuity. That is a base. That is a base. Though other the BJP have played
07:55 its role to pull down other groups into non-Jatav or non-Yadav into their fold. But whereas
08:06 the current you know the present social justice politics, it has become necessary even for
08:12 the parties like you know VCK, JMM becoming part of India Alliance, DMK, those who believed
08:23 strongly in you know social justice. Of course, BSP unfortunately BSP did not come into this.
08:28 That is the point that.
08:29 Did not come into this alliance.
08:30 Just you know you said that you know the idea came actually from you know civil society
08:35 to you know get into an electoral you know kind of a level of social justice. But you
08:41 know do you think that the opposition parties, Congress in particular, when it comes to social
08:46 justice or caste related issues, especially during the elections, you know it is not so
08:50 much affirmative action culturally or socially or you know in generally in life.
08:57 But it boils down usually to reservation. I mean it is that is in the end it comes to
09:03 that. Whereas I mean the canvas of social justice is so vast and especially in our country
09:09 we have so much work to do. But that never really gets highlighted in any election campaign.
09:15 Yeah, yeah, yeah. So first time it happened. But I call social justice not merely in the
09:21 context of the marginal groups. Social justice is something which is a very important concept
09:28 where you know I mean one can see that in the context of constitution. Denial of constitutional
09:35 rights to anyone is denial of justice and social justice.
09:40 Yes, agreed.
09:41 Okay. So now when this particular elections you know when I was in the ground you know
09:48 when I was moving around in Telangana and before elections I went to Karnataka, I went
09:55 to Tamil Nadu, I went to Maharashtra, people started talking about the constitution at
10:04 the ground even after the I mean before when the electoral politics are happening. I was
10:08 in Nizamabad, Karimnagar, Mahbubnagar you know all these places. You know people started
10:14 talking about the constitution. I was interacting with an NRIJS you know woman worker and she
10:22 was talking about you know in a very angry mood that you know our constitution is being
10:29 going to be scrapped.
10:30 Yeah.
10:31 And you know when the discourse went to such a level social justice has become a compelled
10:35 concern of India block.
10:38 But you know what I was asking is yes I agree with all that but when it comes to finally
10:43 in the electoral speeches or campaign rallies it is only this reservation issue and then
10:48 you know you get stuck there because there is that supreme court order then how are you
10:53 going to give you know increase it to some part some you know some cast and then how
10:57 are you what is the repercussion going to be for the other because there is a limit.
11:01 So what I mean is it becomes a very you know arithmetic kind of a issue rather than a…
11:07 A long term project or…
11:08 Yeah of a solid you know proper affirmative action.
11:12 Okay.
11:13 I will just add to that that what we were thinking of that it is all about when Rahul
11:17 Gandhi is saying that 90% we have to representation of 90% and everything and this whole thing
11:23 is all about there is a technicality into it involved that is there is a 50% bar whether
11:30 it can be increased or not.
11:32 These questions actually come instead of specifically talking about not only proportional representation
11:39 as you rightly said that the constitutional rights and dignity of the people.
11:43 So there don't you think somewhere rather that was missing in this whole campaign trail
11:47 because that is the thing where from Vajpa has taken up this they will give you reservation
11:52 to like SC/ST, OBC reservations will be given to Muslims and whatever like that.
11:56 So it was mostly boiled down to affirmative action instead of much more broader aspects
12:01 of social justice.
12:02 Probably it could be one political strategy to narrow down to reservations but which is
12:07 not the right agenda.
12:10 I see that it is not a right agenda.
12:12 Yes it is important to talk about debate about reservations and ultimately where…
12:17 It is one of the things of social justice where there are you know a million others.
12:22 Exactly.
12:23 How do you see look I am working on citizenship now.
12:26 Is it you know you are a citizen but what your entitled dignity, justice and you know
12:34 overall development within the you know whether it is individual or community.
12:39 Not to be afraid to go out and do what you want you know ride a horse on your wedding.
12:44 Exactly.
12:45 So the overall you know development concerned is missing and most probably what I would
12:51 say that you know again you know I mean though it is a bad strategy but it has become a compared
12:57 because you know when BJP is saying that you know we will give you this much number, we
13:02 will take reservations from them and we will give to you.
13:05 So it is like a trap.
13:06 BJP is trying to trap you towards to the debate on only reservations but not any other things.
13:11 So narrowing down the debate that is their goal.
13:13 Yes to that level but I see that you know I mean how do you distribute the resources
13:19 from all corners, not just only you know reservations and jobs.
13:23 Yeah exactly.
13:24 How do you ensure the dignity of a person who has his or her own choice of opting any
13:32 kind of you know thing which has been very clearly drafted in the constitution and also
13:40 in the direct to principles of state policy how you become a significant you know group
13:47 or community which can contribute to the larger political domain.
13:51 That is missing.
13:52 Yeah that is what I am asking.
13:54 And you know this thing is so I mean for so many years has been so lopsided you know towards
13:59 the upper caste and the ruling classes.
14:03 I mean that is what I mean you know that is where we need to you know sort of you know
14:08 break it down and as you say redistribute.
14:11 Exactly, it needs to be you know and look I mean again you know therefore what when
14:18 I in the beginning I said that you know it should completely re-strategize.
14:23 Okay now fourth, after fourth we are all eagerly waiting about you know fourth but after fourth
14:29 the agenda of social justice how it needs to be transformed.
14:31 Is what because election has come and gone but you know the issues remain.
14:34 Issue remains and the communities and their suffering remains.
14:37 For example atrocities, for example employment, health you know these are basic concerns of
14:46 Dalit Bahujan communities who are yet to get benefit you know you are therefore you know
14:52 I can recall that you know Ambedkar who spoke about you know citizenship rights in 1930s
15:00 which becomes much more relevant today.
15:03 And therefore that should be what he argued for long term you know substantial citizenship
15:08 rather than a mere citizenship which does not guarantee anything to you.
15:13 So therefore the parties which now started believing, now started believing I am being
15:19 very specific about it you know that they need to seriously think and re-strategize
15:25 and one needs to continuously engage on this not elections you know over and then you know
15:32 you got power.
15:33 And flog this one horse of reservation.
15:35 Yeah let me also tell one more thing what I observed at the ground you know I mean the
15:39 leadership you know where I worked it was Congress you know I do not know about any
15:43 other regions you know but though our team has worked in different regions it has become
15:48 you know okay Dalits, Christians, Muslims they will anyway eventually will vote for
15:53 us.
15:54 So therefore no need to think about much.
15:57 That is a limiting thing of electoral politics right.
16:01 I will just chip in to this like one thing that as you were saying that Dalits, Christians,
16:06 Muslims like this believe that they will vote for us.
16:08 Do not you think in the last few votes, last few elections we have seen that several reserved
16:15 seats have gone to Vajpayee even if we talk about Madhya Pradesh last assembly elections.
16:22 So whenever there is like if I refer to Madhya Pradesh a single instance the number of Adivasi
16:27 atrocities is highest in Madhya Pradesh as per the NCRB data.
16:31 But last elections, assembly elections the majority of the Adivasi seats went to Vajpayee.
16:37 So what is it all about as we are saying that Dalits, Adivasis facing atrocities, they are
16:43 facing lynchings and so on and so forth even after that how these votes are going to BJP.
16:49 Where is it coming from?
16:50 How is this consolidation happening?
16:52 What do you think about it?
16:53 See BJP with its own strategies like as I said you know politics of accommodation, they
16:59 are picking up, they are trying to first polarize the community by bringing certain communities
17:04 who are not represented at all in the political domain.
17:07 That is number one.
17:08 Number two, once after doing that what they are trying to do is that they are trying to
17:13 it is like you know I mean you say that you know 38 percent or you know maximum 38 or
17:17 40 percent of vote bank, 38 only.
17:21 Like how this consolidating these communities based on the sub-caste, sub-tribe or any other
17:29 identities they are trying to mobilize.
17:33 And they are able to convince them in a very emotional context or may be nationalistic
17:41 you know kind of you know identity where elections becomes a very in front of me now I have to
17:47 vote and whom should I vote and there are certain concerns.
17:52 I look into that rather than thinking about the long term concerns which I experience
17:59 in an everyday context.
18:01 That kind of you know ideological churning has not happened among you know much more
18:10 sections of…
18:11 So, has not happened?
18:12 Not happened.
18:13 So, when you are saying the choice of vote of the selection that whom to vote for, it
18:17 is a temporal thing.
18:18 It is a temporal.
18:19 It is a temporal thing that the immediate necessity and immediate needs and do you think
18:23 this is the reason of the welfare politics getting so much attractions.
18:28 How do you connect it because this welfare politics when I was in the ground we were
18:31 saying like even in Madhya Pradesh, I am referring to Madhya Pradesh that Ladli Behen Yojana,
18:35 Behen ke liye laddu diya mama and that was being told to me by several Adivasi people
18:41 over there.
18:42 So, this is something I want to understand.
18:44 We were wondering that is it the reason that it has become temporal that the welfare politics
18:49 has become so important.
18:50 Yeah, not only in Madhya Pradesh, you take any other region where welfare you know like
18:55 you know crumbles.
18:56 You do, you give crumbles through welfare kind of you know thing and you give benefits
19:01 for old age or you take Andhra Pradesh you know which is completely like in a family
19:06 you get around 20 to 25,000 in a month.
19:09 Right.
19:10 So, there is no any kind of other kind of alternative mechanism that the political parties
19:14 are following.
19:15 So, but this welfare kind of you know measures are not happening to only SC/STU VCs.
19:21 Yeah.
19:22 It is also happening to other communities.
19:24 Absolutely.
19:25 You take you know the larger you know farm loans you know weaving of the farm loans and
19:29 many other things.
19:30 So many things.
19:31 But for Dalits, for tribals you know why it has become so in that context why it is very
19:37 important.
19:38 But for you know see I can say that when I mean for them when there is an immediate
19:42 benefit in front of me and where that benefit is going to be attained by this electoral
19:48 politics.
19:49 So, my concern become much more electoral politics.
19:51 Okay.
19:52 That is one thing which and which is a very bad thing, which is a very bad thing.
19:56 You know because also this is so the welfare schemes it is also become so competitive.
20:02 I mean you know in Andhra Pradesh for instance and in Telangana I mean it is one you give
20:07 x you give 2x you know you up it to 3x you match it to 4x.
20:11 I mean that and you know it is all coming from debt.
20:14 You know it is not so there is a I mean how long is it sustainable to go on like you said
20:19 in Andhra Pradesh I think I met also a few families they get you know the mother get
20:23 something the father get something the kid the school going children get something all
20:27 put it is a lot in a year.
20:29 I mean it is like.
20:30 In a month.
20:31 In a month.
20:32 Yeah.
20:33 In a month.
20:34 And you know one of them had a I think a stone kidney stone operation which he said it was
20:38 1 lakh 20 rupees 20,000 completely free.
20:42 You know so I mean but this you know the exchequer is it is kind of somebody has to pay the bill
20:48 right in the end.
20:49 Yeah.
20:50 Welfare politics are important but the idea of welfare politics has its own significance
20:55 you know way before when it started.
20:58 But it should not boil down to such a level where communities will only depend on that.
21:03 Right.
21:04 And you know this Dalit SCSTs you know they only depend on that and therefore you are
21:09 trying to make them you are enslaving them.
21:13 And there is a competitive welfarism.
21:15 That is what.
21:16 It is a competitive thing because 1 lakh rupees to people and like in a year to like all this
21:22 entrepreneurship and other things.
21:24 So in this way what do you think the alternative of so as you were talking about social justice
21:28 politics what is the alternative of it that we are unable to understand.
21:33 The alternative is to generate employment.
21:37 Generate employment.
21:38 You know the economy should be the development model should be in such a way that it should
21:43 give more jobs.
21:45 It should bring more not only you know marginal communities.
21:50 You see that you know I mean the entire unemployment debate that kick started.
21:55 It can be unemployment, it can be you know health, it can be education everywhere.
21:59 The major percentage is SCST, OBCs again where.
22:05 So I see that the other issues also which becoming part of not only reservations but
22:11 also many other concerns you know where majority at least you know 80, 70 to 80 percent of
22:17 you know if you merge all SCST, OBCs together.
22:22 They are the victims of this development model which we have adopted.
22:25 Yeah, yeah.
22:26 Which we have adopted.
22:27 That is true.
22:28 But it did not seriously change the development discourse number one.
22:32 I was just talking to the taxi driver coming.
22:34 You know very interesting discussion you know.
22:36 So I asked that you know I mean he is from UP you know he said I asked that whom do you
22:40 are supporting.
22:41 He said our own you know Modi.
22:43 I said okay fine then what.
22:45 No he made temple and other things.
22:47 Then I thought let me talk about issues with him.
22:51 So when I started talking about issues he was slightly taken aback.
22:56 And at the end of the discussion he said that I asked how many children do you have you
23:00 know.
23:01 He said two children.
23:02 He said Berozgar.
23:04 I said you know so now from Mandir to Berozgar.
23:08 So what do you think about this entire you know kind of thing.
23:11 I do not know which caste he belongs to.
23:12 Whichever the caste he might be.
23:15 My only concern is that when we are talking about even a youth, unemployed youth it is
23:21 denial of justice and social justice.
23:23 But that is true.
23:24 This happens all the time when we go on to the ground and speak to people you know do
23:28 a little bit of a deep interview of sit them down.
23:31 And this is not only with the BJP.
23:33 I mean whichever the ruling government may be there.
23:35 You know it is you know you talk a little you start questioning like what how have you
23:39 benefited you know for your children.
23:42 Has the education become better.
23:43 The health services better.
23:45 I mean they mostly they will keep saying no and it is the unemployment is one huge issue.
23:50 And then I mean whichever like I said the state is ruling in that there is you know
23:55 from the immediate answer of who do you vote and then it will come to completely the opposite.
24:01 Here exactly the India bloc failed to reach to the people.
24:04 I think.
24:05 Like saying that you know you were not able to counter what exactly BJP is arguing.
24:10 Suppose if they are saying only reservation.
24:12 Why do you again narrow down to only reservation.
24:14 You say that we will distribute the entire resources.
24:17 They have.
24:18 Which has been taken over.
24:19 The narrative has just not been there.
24:22 So therefore now.
24:23 So they have always been entrapped by the narrative and the pitch set by Vajpa.
24:27 So there is one you think that this is a sort of a continuous thing whenever BJP sets the
24:32 pitch.
24:33 This time it is like after second phase it was different.
24:35 But before the first two phases it was mostly the narrative set by Vajpa and they were like.
24:40 No but that also helped India bloc.
24:42 Let me tell you.
24:43 For the sake of you know voting votes for that purpose you know it helped because people
24:48 started saying constitution ko chin raye.
24:51 They are taking our constitution.
24:52 Therefore the reservations are going to be removed.
24:55 And therefore our future is null.
24:58 But see how they are going.
25:00 They will.
25:01 I mean this discourse reached to the people.
25:03 But you know.
25:04 That helped in fact.
25:05 That helped.
25:06 But the other point that you know what you were just talking about.
25:08 See there is I think in 10 years of ruling such a big messy country like ours.
25:13 You know there is just pure anti-incumbency.
25:16 You know that people do not think that for 10 years I mean for a government to keep on
25:20 delivering it is a huge task.
25:23 That I think is what I think the opposition, the India bloc completely missed in communicating
25:28 or in you know capitalizing on.
25:31 Because you know how much okay unemployment is there in the manifesto.
25:35 But how much of it was did they go and tell the people like you are saying.
25:39 You know did they do that?
25:40 I do not know.
25:41 No.
25:42 No.
25:43 No.
25:44 I mean this work has been done by the civil society groups.
25:45 I can tell that.
25:46 You know I mean there was a huge campaign.
25:48 But 5 things which really did not work to BJP especially in southern states and some
25:55 other parts of the country.
25:57 Coming to, ignoring the Hindi belt you know.
26:02 Bhima Koregaon, April 2nd agitation, Hathras and then this constitution.
26:11 And completely privatizing, you know privatizing the public sector which has its adverse effect
26:17 on the employment concerns of the marginal groups.
26:21 So all these things really worked against BJP and the entire campaign I can tell you
26:28 that okay for the political parties they have their own agenda.
26:33 But whereas from not only Bharat Jodha Abhiyan for that matter many civil society groups.
26:40 I mean I was amazed to see like you know Jago India, you know like Wake Up India, Wake Up
26:46 Andhra for that matter.
26:48 You know there were people who really worked hard in the 6 constituencies which they and
26:53 in fact this Wake Up Andhra openly gave a paper notification saying that telling the
27:01 Chandrababu Naidu and you know other parties to not to support the communal forces at the
27:06 center.
27:07 So therefore many civil society groups who came together not to just, this election I
27:13 would like to say that you know it is nothing but political parties played a very, India
27:18 block played one role.
27:20 But whereas the other people like communities, civil society organizations they played.
27:26 It is like people's versus Modi.
27:31 That is where you know I mean even in the context of social justice if I bring, you
27:35 know entire communities who were the victims under BJP government.
27:41 Of course you know I mean like in Telangana, Munnoor Kapu, Madiga and there is one more
27:48 community which they have you know completely focused and they worked.
27:52 But within scheduled cast you know there is a complete polarization of votes in Telangana.
27:58 Some went to Congress, some went to BJP.
28:02 In assembly elections all you know people divided into three political parties.
28:07 So therefore you know somewhere this idea of social justice has become much more relevant
28:14 in coming days.
28:16 Dr. Virendra Prasad Just one thing sir, I was thinking of as you
28:19 were saying that earlier that BSP, in Dalit politics in the last few decades we know BSP
28:27 has been leading in Dalit politics.
28:28 But for the last one or like five, seven years we have seen a continuous like decline of
28:33 the party.
28:34 How do you think BSP's Dalit vote base or like in Uttar Pradesh and other parts, they
28:40 are behaving whenever there is a like sort of force that is in power that is somewhere
28:44 other people are saying responsible for atrocities against Dalits.
28:49 How are this, how do you read BSP's politics in this context?
28:52 Dr. Virendra Prasad Till 10 years before BSP was has its very
28:55 strong base in different states not only in UP.
28:58 Till just 10 years before, maybe 2014 onwards it has completely.
29:03 So what BJP did, it completely sabotaged Kanchiram's political strategies.
29:08 You know I mean it is like you know you try to you know pull down the entire game or maybe
29:15 the engineering you know social engineering that Kanchiram you know played.
29:19 So therefore you know what they did, they tried to sabotage that in Uttar Pradesh.
29:25 Until recently, it is not that you know till 2019, BSP in every state in an average because
29:34 I worked on these issues, social justice issues and I know that you know I mean I voted for
29:39 BSP for the past 20 years I am telling.
29:42 First time I voted for Congress.
29:45 You know the reason is that you know I mean I have very clear, I need to protect constitution,
29:52 I need to protect democracy, I need to protect certain principles which for the past 75 years
29:59 India experienced.
30:01 So BSP after 2019, till 2019 in an average 2% they have owed bank in many states in the
30:13 country wherever the social justice movements you know including Maharashtra, Andhra, Telangana.
30:18 In fact in Telangana, R.S.
30:19 Praveen Kumar who moved to TRS at the last moment, he was in charge of BSP and he tried
30:25 his level best to bring BSP and Telangana TRS government alliance.
30:30 But he openly said that you know I mean in his own videos which I am not telling anything
30:37 beyond that.
30:38 But he said that it is because the pressure from the you know BJP what made Benji to ask
30:45 me to break up the alliance with the TRS.
30:48 So therefore you know I mean now in 2024 the silence, see the politics of presence is very
30:57 important.
30:58 If you are doing in, if you are in politics you need to be visible, you need to be, you
31:02 need to engage with politics where BSP never did that.
31:07 So therefore it is losing its pace.
31:11 Sooner if it can re-strategize and bring new blood into the, not family you know ties,
31:19 there are people who really, young, young, there are many people who are really want
31:23 to work with BSP because of their own political lineage.
31:27 Otherwise whatever is remained in BSP politics it is going to be killed by its own party
31:32 and the own leader rather than the cadre.
31:34 Cadre is there but leader is not visible anywhere.
31:39 So therefore I see this BSP politics in this way.
31:41 I think we have to conclude, we are running out of time.
31:44 Though I would like to end with you know so okay the elections will come and go, whatever
31:48 the results may be but the affirmative action, the social justice cause that the India bloc
31:52 and the opposition parties, Congress has started, has sort of brought to the you know the mainstream,
31:57 how will it go on beyond this?
32:00 It should go beyond the political mileages.
32:04 Even it needs to, as I already said that you know I mean if at all India bloc whether comes
32:10 in power or not, it should stick together because social justice politics is something
32:16 to do with a collective concern rather than an independent political idea.
32:23 It is a collective concern.
32:25 It should not be narrowed down to either electoral politics.
32:28 It should be the politics of social justice should be based on distribution of resources,
32:34 a collective responsibility in feeling ethical and moral concern towards to these communities
32:39 who are suffering for the many you know decades distribution of resources and it is a continuous
32:45 process.
32:46 I do not think that you know this need to be stopped and even in 2029, that is what
32:52 Bharat Jodha Abhiyan decided to work till 2029.
32:56 It is a civil society you know organization which we come together as you might be knowing
33:02 it that you know we are going to work till 2029 and we are going to say that you know
33:06 social justice, saving democracy, save constitution is our concern and we will keep on continuously
33:16 insisting either India bloc, even civil society groups, engaging with communities.
33:21 We will keep on working till 2029.
33:24 Hopefully this is going to be, this is the beginning and even the entire, see even if
33:30 India bloc gets majority, I would like to convey one small message to India bloc, you
33:36 know political parties, even if India bloc gets some kind of you know way to form the
33:41 government, there is a way to show the future politics for social justice by electing the
33:49 chief ministerial candidate from where, from the background where the, sorry, sorry the
33:57 prime ministerial candidate from the background where the Dalit or any other background who
34:03 comes from.
34:04 That will be great to see sir.
34:05 I think that would be you know that would be a beginning and that will set the agenda
34:09 you know.
34:10 So therefore hoping for all the things you know probably we can guess who might be hoping
34:13 for all the best.
34:14 Sure.
34:15 Thank you very much.
34:16 Thank you so much.
34:17 That was very very interesting conversation.
34:18 Thank you very much for dropping into our studios and thank you very much for listening
34:21 in.
34:22 Thank you so much.
34:23 Yeah.
34:24 Thank you.
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