After Hibs sack Nick Montgomery, Martyn, Lewis and Ben talk about potential replacements and what the club really needs.
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00:00Hello and welcome to National World Football Talk, your nan's favourite football podcast,
00:11Ken. It's a show where we bring you the latest news and results from the Scottish Premiership
00:16and around the SPFL. I'm your host Martin Simpson, joined once again by Ben Banks and
00:21Lewis Anderson. We're going to be discussing Hib's decision to sack Nick Montgomery, their
00:26search for a new manager and bringing in Malky Mackay as Sporting Director. And we're also
00:31going to be looking at the title race, which could be concluded tonight when Celtic face
00:35Kilmarnock, following on from last weekend's Old Firm win for the Hoops. So guys, let's
00:42head over to Easter Road where Tuesday was a bit of a, was it a hectic day or a bit of
00:50a Hibsey day? I don't know. It was certainly something, an obvious one to start. So Nick
00:55Montgomery is gone. It probably seemed like we're going to wait till the end of the decision
01:00and end of the season, make a decision. Then after the Aberdeen result, it felt almost
01:05certain that that decision was going to be to, to get rid of them. Does it, does it feel
01:10like the right call? It's a bit of an odd one. Obviously the results haven't been there
01:13for a while, bottom six finish, poor performances in some big games, but the flip side of the
01:22argument is the constant chopping and changing of managers who, who aren't being given really
01:27any time or he's only had one transfer window, for example, that was January and it's not
01:32as if there was a lot of money for him to spend. Where do you land on it? I was at Easter
01:38Road on Sunday and my general consensus is with every single manager on world football
01:43is that once the fans go, then it's, it's not a case of F it's just a case of when.
01:49And I mean, for only maybe a couple of thousand Hibs fans being in that ground at full time,
01:55there was a hefty amount of food. It was really loud. And I think once it gets to that point
02:02in it, then it's done. I feel for Nick Montgomery's move to his family's coaches are moved halfway
02:06around the world to, to come to Hudson by any of this project. And he doesn't even really
02:11get, it doesn't really, I know obviously the winter transfer window we had, but he's limited
02:15to loan players.
02:16He was talking about how he wanted to bring in sort of leaders in January, but he wasn't
02:20able to because that's a lot of money and it's multi-year contracts. So I feel sorry
02:26for him perhaps more so than some other house managers. He's a decent enough guy, but, um,
02:32I think the, I think his second speaks to more issues surrounding the club as a whole
02:37rather than Montgomery, maybe as opposed to Lee Johnson who robbed fans up the wrong way.
02:42So he went because of that. Sean Maloney, very clearly within three months has held
02:47their hands up and said, well, we got this one wrong. Paul Heckenbottom as well was another
02:51one started well, and then eventually started robbing fans up the wrong way. I don't think
02:55fans have ever had it in for Nick Montgomery, but I think it's been clear for the last few
03:00weeks anyway, once that statement came out about results being unacceptable, that this
03:05was only going to go one way. Although I'm, I'm surprised that they've done it before
03:08Paul Hanlon and Lewis Stevenson's last game, because it does put a total cloud over what
03:13should be an emotional game for them at Easter road. And it's going to be, it's going to
03:16be bumped way down the list of priorities. I would imagine for fans, obviously off the
03:20back of Malcolm McKay coming in as well, which I'm sure we're going to speak about. And yeah,
03:25it's a feel for, for me and I feel for Paul and Lewis as well, that they are big names
03:29probably going to get overshadowed somewhere.
03:31Yeah, on Malcolm McKay, Lewis. So, so obviously we need to just for, for context, for anyone
03:38listening that might not understand, it would be fair to call Malcolm McKay a polarizing
03:44figure, I think. So the, the, the sort of negative opinion towards him dates back to
03:49these historic tweets from, from his time in England when he was Cardiff city boss that
03:55came to light when he was in contention for the crystal palace job. Some, not tweets,
04:00sorry, messages. I apologize. There were messages on WhatsApp, I believe some pretty
04:06racist, homophobic, misogynist comments made by him. We need to say firstly, that he did
04:14apologize and that secondly, he was never formally charged for these comments. In the
04:20time since, which is bad, near enough, a decade now since those came out in the time since
04:25em, you know, a lot of fans, a lot of supporters in Scottish, because he's obviously where
04:31he's been interim Scotland manager, he's worked behind the scenes at the SFA quite significantly.
04:36And then of course he was Ross County manager for a while. A lot of fans have been willing
04:41to leave the past in the past. And equally, a lot of fans are not quite so quick to forgive.
04:49All that aside, Lewis, given the situation Hibbs are in, just to appoint someone like
04:56that, which it doesn't, to me, it doesn't seem like it's just the worst. Maybe, you
05:02know, him as a footballing person might be a good appointment, but with his background
05:08at this time for Hibbs, I don't know how you feel, but to me, it just feels like a completely
05:13wrong, wrong decision.
05:16I think you're probably right, Martin, in that at a time where I think Hibbs need unity
05:23more than anything, like it's already a club that sort of lost that bit of connection with
05:30the fan base. And as I mean, you go through three, four managers now since, since Jack
05:37Ross and that side of it is already fractured to then on the same day you sack your latest
05:44manager and then when fans sort of maybe, maybe the anger sort of subsides from that
05:49and starts turning towards the board a wee bit and asking those type of questions. But
05:53by the time you get to four or five o'clock, you're then asking, right, who comes next
05:56and how can we build for the future for that person building the future to then be something
06:00as divisive as him. And I think even if you take all the historic things out of it, I
06:04think people have questions over the actual footballing ability of Malcolm McKay. This
06:10was a guy that gets sacked by Ross County earlier in the season. He's never held a
06:14sporting director role at club level. I know he held a role within the SFA behind the scenes
06:18that by all accounts he did a very good job in. But this is, it's still probably in terms
06:26of divisiveness, I think that's the right word. And I just don't feel that for all the
06:30good he might do as sporting director, you're already seeing multiple fan groups saying
06:34they're not going to be back, waves to season ticket holders saying they're not going to
06:38be back. And there are some as well, we should say, that have also said that he's apologised
06:43and were moved on and it's sort of solely on football. So there is probably more of
06:47a balance than maybe you'd see in social media. But I think it's just to split the fan base
06:53like this at a time where you need to be unified when you're looking for a new manager or for
06:57the back of a poor season. I just don't get it. I just think that it's another thing for
07:03people to beat Hibbs over the head with because you know it's going to get asked when they
07:07unveil the new manager, they're going to get asked these uncomfortable questions about
07:10his past and whether it buys into Hibbs' ethos as a family club. So I think I just
07:17struggle to see the benefit of it at this time.
07:20Just on the back of what Ben was saying about Malky Mackay, that's probably going to change
07:25the prospect of which managers they can realistically attract because now any head coach they bring
07:31in is going to be working under Malky Mackay who will lead the recruitment for Nick Montgomery's
07:39successor. You've got to feel that the early bookmakers odds came out Derek McInnes was
07:44the favourite. Other names up there included Neil Lennon and Stephen Robinson. Further
07:49down the list you were looking at guys like Alec Neil who we've spoken on this show about
07:53whether or not he would be coming back to Scottish football at this time. Yeah, but
08:01I mean, well, let's focus on McInnes a bit first of all. Taking the whole Malky Mackay
08:07guy and putting it to the side just for a minute, even if he wasn't there, could you
08:12see McInnes leaving Kilmarnock with where he's got them at the moment to go to Hibbs
08:18with where they are at the moment, regardless of things like the budget he would have or
08:23his own salary that he'd be getting by making that switch?
08:27Yeah, I think first things first, I think obviously Hibbs would be a step up from Kilmarnock.
08:34I think in terms of the infrastructure in place there at Easter Road, it would be an
08:42attractive proposition, I guess. But the big issue at the moment in time is the current
08:47instability I think that the club have in place there. I think there needs to be some
08:51really hard hitting questions asked of the Hibbs hierarchy and whether or not McInnes
08:57would want to come into that type of environment and work with Malky Mackay. I don't know what
09:03their kind of relationship is there. And Ben Kensal as well, who is now overseeing,
09:09I think that's the fourth manager he's fired during his time as Chief Executive. So whether
09:14or not he would necessarily want to leave a Kilmarnock side who, let's face it, punching
09:20well above their weight, obviously guaranteed European football next season. And he might
09:27be thinking to himself in the back of mind, how far realistically will I be able to take
09:31a Kilmarnock? If you like, finishing in the top six alone is some achievement for them.
09:38But I just think at this current moment in time, I don't think Denis McInnes would necessarily
09:44be lured by the Hibbs job just based on the current mess above him at this moment in time.
09:55I don't think he would necessarily want to work with the people that they've put in place
09:59at Easter Road. Yeah, I would tend to agree with that one. And you look at McInnes' track
10:05record from his time at Aberdeen, he obviously knocked back the opportunity to become both
10:10Rangers and Sunderland manager while at Aberdeen. Both clubs in terms of infrastructure, budget,
10:16his wage would have all been a step up from Aberdeen. But similar to where Hibbs now,
10:22neither club at the time he was offered those jobs were in any kind of stable, stable states.
10:30I don't know if I'm doing, I don't know who in Scottish football would take this at the minute,
10:34if I'm being totally honest. A younger coach seems more realistic when you're bringing us
10:39from maybe, maybe more late rovers or? I can see the Black Knight group being links being used.
10:46And I think it needs to be somebody who's worked in these, though I say multi club models,
10:50but it needs to be somebody I think who's familiar with that. I think people say
10:54Scottish football experience, they need that. But it's only good, it's only good to have
10:58Scottish football experience if it's good Scottish football experience. And I'm not necessarily sure
11:02they can get somebody like that. And probably one that I've seen that would be kind of interesting
11:06see how ambitious Hibbs are would be Ronnie Dyla. He's somebody that's worked in Scottish football
11:11before. He's worked within the sort of city group model. So we'll know how that hierarchy
11:17works between sporting directors and perhaps not having all the recruitment or whether it is going
11:22to maybe be a younger coach who comes in. Yeah, we're probably looking more at your
11:26Reece McCabe's, your Stephen Thompson, Kevin Thompson, sorry, obviously not Stevie Thompson.
11:31He's too big. Kevin Thompson, I mean, Ian Murray. Well, I said Ian Murray, but I don't know. I think
11:43yeah, Ian Murray is potentially a good choice with Hibbs links. We're going to have to take
11:50a short break now, but we'll be right back to discuss last weekend's Old Firm Derby.
11:54Welcome back. So at the weekend, the Premiership title was all but decided.
12:14As we record this on Wednesday morning, last night, Rangers just about managed to postpone Celtic's
12:20title party. They can wrap that up tonight, if not tonight, more than likely on the weekend.
12:29It wasn't Rangers day for a number of reasons. You watched the game, just if you were looking
12:35at that from a Rangers point of view, just how disappointed in the Rangers sort of
12:40performance and attitude and maybe just, you know, lack of any real drive from some of the players,
12:47were you? I think, yeah, again, it's hugely disappointing and frustrating. I think as well,
12:52you know, a lot's been made about for Leith by Clermont still failing to beat Celtic. I think
12:58the only thing that this does on the back of it now really heightens the importance of this
13:02Scottish Cup final coming up in a couple of weeks time. You know, a massive game, not only for
13:07Clermont now, but also, you know, they've got the chance to finish with a bit of a flourish,
13:13if you like. I know the league title is very much takes priority, but, you know, a cup double
13:18shouldn't be sniffed at given that this is a squad that I think needs pretty major surgery over the
13:24summer. I think it's fair to say, based on the first 15 minutes, again, they seem to have,
13:31I don't know if it's some kind of mental blockage when it comes to facing Celtic,
13:35particularly going across the city there to Parkhead. The first 15 minutes, again, never
13:41really in the game. There was a lot made beforehand about how they'd have to kind of
13:46sit back, soak up a lot of the pressure, but they never kind of really got much of a foothold in the
13:51game. Again, over right road in midfield, obviously losing Jon Lundstrom to the red card
13:59makes their task 10 times harder. And then from then on, there was kind of no way back. I know
14:06they put up a, you know, a bit of a decent fight in the second half, but they never looked like,
14:13you know, seriously getting back into the game. I think once, you know, Matt O'Reilly had put Celtic
14:19in front, there was only going to be one winner from that point. Going forward now, Ben Rangers
14:24need to, like Lewis says, they've still got a cup double to play for. And that's absolutely
14:31not something to be sniffed at, just because they've lost out on the league. And they have,
14:35no, I don't think they were ever in a commanding position, but there was definitely points where
14:39they were favourites to lift the trophy. So they have kind of conceded a little bit. But
14:45yeah, I think we saw last night, there is still, last night against Dundee, there is still a bit
14:50of fire and a bit of fight in some of those Rangers players. Because I know, I think they
14:54know there is still quite a bit to be played for.
14:59I'd say, to be honest, I think it's easy to show that when you've already lost the title.
15:03It's easy to go and play against Dundee, you know, and Clement said about it,
15:07I don't mean that disrespectfully, Dundee, it's easy to go and play against Dundee like that.
15:11But like Clement spoke in the post-match press conference of basically, I had to go and shout
15:16at them to get them going. Like, it's easy to play when the pressure's off at Rangers,
15:20it's easy to play with the pressure off at any club, you can sort of, you can be free to show
15:24yourself because you know it's not really, that level of heat is off. And again, when it gets put
15:29on in the Scottish Cup final, that's where I think you need to be judged as a Rangers or a Celtic
15:33player, is in these big games and big moments. And this Rangers squad, not just, you know,
15:40this season, throughout a number of seasons, have lost these big games when the pressure's been on.
15:46And they did it again on Saturday, even before the red card, I thought they were fairly poor.
15:50It was weird, Celtics sort of got worse as the game went on, despite having more
15:55foothold in the game as the game went on. It's a bizarre game to watch. And I don't think that I
16:01will speak about them as well before the end of this, because I think it's right to acknowledge
16:05them as champions and deserve champions over the course of 38 games. But they were also,
16:11like, they weren't great. And Rangers got absolutely nowhere near them. I think this
16:17squad needs gutted from top to bottom, but it's not career mode on FIFA. You can't click sell
16:23on 20 players and bring 20 new ones in. I still think a lot of this squad is, I think a lot more
16:28of this squad is going to be here next season than perhaps people think. You obviously have guys like
16:33Kamal Roof, Borna Barisic, who were two sort of taking in the last moments at Ibrox yesterday.
16:38But I think the ones under contract, I still think you need somebody to buy them. You need
16:43somebody to be willing to pay their wages. You know, if you're an English championship club,
16:47could you spend three or four million better than you would in Ben Davies? Maybe. Could you buy a
16:52bit of left back for five or six million than Redd Van Elmas? Probably. And I don't mean to single
16:57those two out, but those are just two examples. And this squad needs major surgery. But I mean,
17:04is the budget going to be there to do it? And can they shift the players out to allow them to do
17:08that? I'm not too sure. I think Rangers this summer will definitely be looking more down the
17:14loan with the option to buy Root. You know, the early indications are that, you know, I don't
17:21think there'll be a huge transfer kitty there, given what they spent last summer. We know kind
17:27of Clermont's hands were tied during the January transfer window. And I don't think this summer,
17:34I think they're going to have to move some big names out, you know, whether that be a Jack
17:39Butland, whether that be a Conor Goldson heading to Saudi, you know, to kind of free up some funds.
17:46You know, there's been a lot of talk around a permanent deal for that. Dallas SEMA, how are
17:50they going to fund that? That's another one. And I think there's lots of question marks there. And
17:55based on last night, I have a general feeling that some of the supporters are really starting to lose
18:00faith in this team. And I think that's kind of heightened based on some of the young players
18:06that Clermont threw on in the second half. And I know that was down to a lack of options, really,
18:12just due to the huge injury list he's got at the moment. But I think there's a kind of overriding
18:18feeling at this moment in time that enough's enough and that, you know, huge change is needed
18:25this summer. And it will be interesting to kind of see what type of players Clermont does decide
18:31to go for this summer, because personally, I think he'll kind of be looking further afield,
18:36if you like, exploiting his contacts in Belgium, Holland, France, et cetera, rather than maybe
18:43looking at the British market. The Butland situation in particular, I'm finding absolutely
18:49fascinating at the moment because Clermont recently came out and said he's not for sale
18:54at any price. He's not going anywhere. But also, if we're being realistic here, he's not Rangers'
19:01only sellable asset, but he's by far and away their biggest one. If they want to generate
19:09a transfer kit, they could with the season he's had and the fact that he's the English Premier
19:14League clubs, well, are always looking to bring in English homegrown trained keepers to bolster
19:20their squads. You do feel like comfortably they would be able to sell Jack Butland for somewhere
19:26between five and 10 million, you know, based on how they negotiate it, potentially even a little
19:34bit more. If a club down south, maybe like a newly promoted club viewed him as potentially their
19:41first choice keeper for the season, they would probably be willing to pay even more than that.
19:46So for him to say he's not for sale, and obviously, if Rangers sold Jack Butland for say 10 million
19:52pound and could go and get a pretty decent replacement for somewhere between 1 million
19:58and 3 million pounds, and then suddenly you've got an extra 7 to 8 million to actually strengthen
20:03the rest of the squads. It's a tricky one for me, but we do need to speak about Celtic, Ben.
20:12And almost a microcosm for their season, like you said, they were good at the weekend without
20:17being great. And it's weird to say that in a league season where they've only lost three
20:23matches all campaign and if they've held off their biggest rivals, but there's just been
20:29this feeling around Celtic this season, hasn't there? They've just, they've kind of, even though
20:34that they've lost so few games, but you look at the season as a whole, you look at the Scottish
20:40Cup semi-final against Aberdeen, where they needed penalties, they've just almost stumbled
20:47over the finish line in a way. With Celtic, it's going to be a bit of a weird banalogy,
20:52but I don't know if you've seen the Barbie movie and they're in Barbie's dream house and Margot
20:58Robbie's dancing and then all of a sudden the music cuts and all you can feel here is the
21:03irrepressible thoughts of doom and then the music starts playing again. That's kind of been Celtic
21:08season and that everything's great, everything's fine, oh no, the recruitment, the team's not as
21:13strong as last season, as Brendan Rodgers is going to go to Everton, West Ham, etc. again.
21:19All these sort of weird lingering thoughts just in the back of your mind that just makes it a very
21:23uncomfortable atmosphere despite the fact everything seems to be going well. It's really,
21:29it's really strange and Celtic, I think one good thing I think for Celtic is that they have won
21:37the league again and they have been nowhere near their best. I think it's weird, I almost feel like
21:43it's like some fans view it as like a poor season, even though the one league, as you say,
21:48with, I wouldn't say relative comfort, but by the end of it the wheels started falling off
21:53Rangers a wee bit and they eventually coasted over the line. So the fact we can win a title
21:59like that, I don't think Celtic are going to be as poor as this again. I think Celtic will be
22:04stronger next season. I think Brendan Rodgers will know that maybe, I don't want to say they
22:09got away with one, but they certainly could be stronger and he's acknowledged that as well,
22:14that Celtic could be stronger and if he gets the players in that he properly wants, that he feels
22:19he can strengthen this team with. Because the recruitment has been lamented at Celtic this
22:23season. You can't say that, you know, you look at Yang, you look at Odin, Thiago Holm, Lagerby, Elke,
22:29Narowski, these guys haven't really been seen at all. It's a lot of the guys who have been there
22:34from previous seasons that have dragged them through and I think that's credit to Cal McGregor,
22:38James Forrest and this whole stretch that these guys have came to the fore again.
22:42Yeah, that's a good point and obviously a lot of that is going to come down to Dermot Desmond and
22:48whether or not he has the, you know, agrees to kind of the movement. We know Celtic have got
22:54the money there stored in the bank and obviously they've got the Champions League football again
22:59next season. I think this could be the summer where Celtic really do kick on and start splashing
23:06the cash. I'm not necessarily saying they're going to go out and spend, you know, 10 million pound on
23:11one player but I think there's a higher chance that we could see, you know, players being bought
23:17for say five, six if you like this summer and I do think given that, you know, Rodgers has been in
23:23this position before, Celtic are in a real kind of power of strength, if you like, going forward
23:31ahead of the summer transfer window so it could potentially get messy for Rangers.
23:37Well, that's all we've got time for on this week's show. Thank you,
23:39Ben. Thank you, Lewis. We'll be back next week with more FIBA Talk of the Week.
23:53you