LIVE Patriots Daily: Draft Superlatives with Phil Perry & Mike Kadlick
Phil Perry of the Next Pats Podcast joins Taylor Kyles and Mike Kadlick on this episode of Patriots Daily to discuss his draft thoughts and superlatives!
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SportsTranscript
00:00Well, it's going on everyone, Taylor, Kyle's and my Catholic here for CLNS media coming
00:29at you with another episode of past daily brought to you by our good friends at prize
00:33picks and game time Patriots draft is in the books were kind of real and we're thinking
00:38trying to get a feel for how the picks actually went now that we've got some time away from
00:42it and to help do some draft superlatives some way too early grades emphasis on the
00:47way too early.
00:48We've got our good buddy, Bill Perry of NBC Sports Boston to talk about that and the media
00:53availabilities that we had this morning with Juwan Bentley and Mike and when you before
00:58we get started, fellas, how we doing?
01:01I'm doing fantastic.
01:02Mike, how are you?
01:03I'm great.
01:04Phil.
01:05I'm I'm happy you're joining us today.
01:06We get a nice get a nice fresh perspective from the senator.
01:09So happy to have you here on with fresh perspective from the closet.
01:13The Gillette Stadium, the famous Gillette Stadium closet.
01:17I am fired up to do this.
01:19I just realized also I tweeted and called you the general and not the senator.
01:22I need to get my military.
01:23Geez Louise.
01:24I'll take that.
01:25I'll take that.
01:26I'll take any.
01:27And that's higher, right?
01:28High paying title.
01:29Yes.
01:30I'll take them all.
01:31Fantastic.
01:32Titles matter now.
01:33Titles do matter now.
01:34OK.
01:35Titles and jersey numbers.
01:36Now jersey numbers matter.
01:37They take precedent.
01:38We got Drake May, Jalen Polk and Caden Wallace all already not in the 50s.
01:39So don't have to watch your rookie quarterback where a linebacker number.
01:40I don't know about that.
01:41Yeah.
01:42Times are changing down there.
01:43I'm curious.
01:44See what they're doing.
01:45I'm curious.
01:46I'm curious.
01:47I'm curious.
01:48I'm curious.
01:49I'm curious.
01:50I'm curious.
01:51I'm curious.
01:52I'm curious.
01:54I'm curious.
01:55See what they get for Jay Vaughn Baker.
01:56I thought he was going to be one.
01:57I wanted that 1, 2, 3 with the two rookies and Pop Douglas.
01:59Hopefully, we get that down the line though.
02:01That looks so good.
02:02Bunch set.
02:031-3.
02:04Tell me that wouldn't be interesting.
02:05I kind of like that.
02:06I do like that.
02:07What do we have?
02:08Do we know what Polk is going to be?
02:09Is Polk one?
02:10Is that the deal.
02:11Polk is one.
02:12Not, who's two right now?
02:13KJ Osborne is 2 right now.
02:15Ah, OK.
02:16So you can still get that.
02:17It just won't be all the young guys.
02:18You could still get your 1, 2, 3.
02:23We had Juwan Bentley and Mike and when you so I'm curious you guys have any big takeaways
02:28I felt like with Bentley basically told us that the defense isn't different
02:32But it is evolving what you would expect because they got a lot of retentions a lot of guys coming back
02:37Mike and when who told us that during the negotiating process they talked about playing right tackles
02:42He was open to going back to guard
02:43But that was where the discussions were not too much difference in his training
02:46Which I thought was a little bit surprising and also gave us some insight into how the scheme is changing said that still early
02:52But they are focusing more on not only outside or wide zone
02:56But actually getting outside which is kind of a surprise to me suppose. I'm curious what you thought about that Phil you first
03:03Yeah, I that's where I guess in terms of the actual football stuff
03:07That was what was most interesting to me today, and we've heard it from other people, right?
03:11we've heard Drake may talk about how he's talked about the wide zone offense and the wide zone run scheme and play action off of
03:17That with Alex van Pelt we heard remandery Stevenson talk about it recently as well
03:20so this is happening and we could have guessed right that this would happen because of Alex van Pelt and his history and where he's
03:26Coming from Kevin Stefanski Gary Kubiak all the way back to Mike Shanahan like this shouldn't be a surprise
03:32but the reason I find it interesting is because
03:36I'm not sure wide zone fits the personnel that they have all that well
03:43The personnel is not gonna be drastically different from last year Michael
03:48Who's still gonna be their city? So my guess is we'll still be starting at guard David Andrews
03:51My guess is we'll still be starting at center. You do have some questions at left guard and left tackle for sure
03:56But this looks like with so in a when you especially the foundation for a really effective
04:04powerful violent north-south downhill run scheme
04:10Which there is
04:11There is the the possibility for that within the Stefanski thing, right?
04:15Like it's not like the Browns only do wide zone or that anybody from the Shanahan McVeigh tree, etc
04:21Only run wide zone. These teams have especially lately
04:25Incorporated more gap stuff to mix it up a little bit
04:28if they're really leaning into this I
04:32ask you guys
04:34Because I know you track this stuff as well as anybody. Is it?
04:39The right thing to do if you have a
04:41350 pound right tackle or you have a guard who looks like city
04:45So or you have the two guys that you just drafted says again
04:48This is interesting to me
04:49You just drafted two players who seem like and they haven't played a single NFL snap
04:53So I don't want to pigeonhole them just yet, but they seem like beat you up in a phone booth
04:58Violent kind of downhill guys, you know from the scouting reports
05:03I've read neither guy is necessarily thought to be this explosive lateral athlete
05:08Which is kind of what you're looking for if you're looking to get outside and you're looking to run this wide zone thing. So
05:16Is this concerning to either of you that they're gonna be rolling with this
05:21Even though the personnel might suggest that they're a little bit better doing this other thing
05:25I'll just throw you one number really quickly last year
05:27They averaged I just checked on sports info solutions
05:31They averaged on
05:33outside zone and stretch runs 3.3 yards per carry on
05:37Gap stuff power duo
05:40And I even included inside zone because I think it's a little bit more similar in terms of just running inside and getting downhill
05:47They average 4.0 yards per carry
05:50so it's a difference of
05:520.7 and they were near the bottom of the league with the stretch stuff and the outside zone stuff and they were they weren't great
05:58You know 4.0 is not amazing, but they were 19th. I think in the league when you lump those types of runs together
06:04So they were better at the the gap stuff last year than they were the zone stuff
06:08Is the coaching change gonna be enough to make them more effective?
06:12With this outside zone style and does the athleticism of the line or the athletes that they have the players that they have
06:19Does it feel like a good fit for you this outside zone scheme?
06:23Mike you're in reverse. I was gonna say Taylor you can take it but
06:27I can I think Cain Wallace is more that like athletic type
06:31I think he'll be fine in that scheme Leighton Robinson. I think with him his reach
06:36He's got really long arms and his burst off the line or things
06:39I feel like kind of working his favor with that scheme
06:42Then you go back to last season with the Browns you had to want Jones
06:46Primarily is the right tackle for them because of all the injuries
06:48So he does have experience running that same scheme with the guy who's I don't think he's as good of a run blocker as a
06:53Mike and when you're not quite as mobile
06:55my thing is
06:57And I think you can supplement getting outside where I don't think in when he was a guy you want trying to get in
07:01front of
07:02Defenders faces and trying to cross face and be that kind of athlete. I'm not sure that's his game now
07:07You can supplement that with okay
07:08We're gonna have a tight end kind of combo and then push him so that in when he doesn't have to get out in front
07:13He's more taking over and then shielding whereas I thought he was more gonna be walling guys off
07:17Like he said last year they were involved in more cutback runs
07:21We're just waiting till they flow to aggressively and then you take advantage
07:24Backside if they are trying to get outside, I think it might be tougher
07:28but at the same time last year because they were so gap oriented and this has been a thing with the outside zone going back to
07:34Shanahan where a big emphasis is that chemistry where they're saying they're working on it already because
07:39You need to know. Okay, if we get this angle, then I'm comboing with this guy
07:43This is how we're gonna handle it. Whereas gap is much more straightforward because it's literally going downhill
07:48You're trying to put that defender in this guy's lap and it's it's a lot easier to kind of
07:53Process and work through so I think the chemistry if they are building it and we're probably gonna see in camp like just
08:00Continuous reps of outside zone with other stuff mixed in because it's more complimentary. I agree though the personnel
08:05It does seem like an odd fit
08:06I think City so it's just athletic enough
08:09But it's not like this is an offensive line full of cool strangers where everyone is tailor-made to do this kind of thing
08:14So I think the chemistry is gonna be the biggest thing that's gonna supplement maybe a lack of great athleticism at those spots
08:20But I do agree
08:21It's kind of like the Caden Wallace pick where it's a big wait-and-see thing where you know
08:26We can speculate and we can think of all the permutations where they work out
08:30But at the end of the day
08:31we're gonna have to see how it actually gets executed on the field and the one the one thing I'll add to the scheme stuff
08:36before I get into some takeaways on today's media availability is just you like Phil said you don't have to
08:41Box yourself into just being an outside zone team like you can run multiple sets
08:46You can you can run your outside stuff where you want to get outside and get your athletes out in space
08:50But you can also ground and pound up the middle too
08:52Like it doesn't you can kind of be multiple as long as a you know
08:57You're comfortable in all five of your offensive linemen doing both
09:00And be it's it's I guess schemed up properly and taught well with Alex and Pelton these guys
09:04so it's gonna be massive on on the coaching and what they think of both the
09:09Like Phil said the phone booth type guys as well as their athleticism if you can, you know
09:13meld them into both then you could be cooking with gas, but it's it's it's a
09:17I guess a good thought by you Phil just on
09:21Really what what the guys in the room right now if they actually fit into that, you know
09:27More athletic mold that you need for that and it's just a I think it's a it's a good question for us to keep in
09:31Mind in this post Bill Belichick era where the head coach was the general manager
09:35and so any player that the general manager brought in the coach was gonna understand and and have an affinity for that guy in the
09:42Schemes that he wanted, you know now there is because they are separate people
09:47You have a general manager who's picking players for a coaching staff that is new and trying to develop something here
09:53And I'm not saying that there's already a disc. I mean
09:56clearly
09:58Van Pelt gets hired they start
10:00what looks like sort of an overhaul of the offensive line between a core of war and Robinson and
10:07Wallace all three guys who you know who might end up being starters at some point in time
10:12If not very soon here for this Patriots offensive line
10:16Van Pelt
10:17Had to have been part of that process. It has to be able to to see how that's going to go
10:22But we've we have seen this in the past where there is like a little bit of a disconnect
10:26So I just think it's an important thing for us to track from afar and say, okay
10:30Is everybody that they're bringing in truly the best?
10:33Fit for what they want to run in and if it's not if they're not
10:37how do they adjust off of that because I do think there were times of course the last couple years and
10:43Like 2022 aside like I think they're gonna get better offensive coaching this year than they did that year
10:48it just it can take a little while if you do find out Oh bleep like
10:54This ain't working for us
10:55like you have to be able to
10:57to change and change quickly
10:59so that you're just adapting and fitting everybody's skill sets as best as you can and you could add you can add Jacoby and
11:05Austin Hooper to that list two of guys who they bring in
11:08Personnel wise that clearly fit on what the coaches want because right they worked with van Pelt in the past. Oh, there goes Phil
11:18One tenant of Alex van Pelt systems is usually that diverse run game like you saw
11:23They're known for the outside zone stuff, but they're using everything. There's power
11:27There's counter like there is definitely gonna be that mix
11:30that's also part of the West Coast scheme because
11:32With all the play-action stuff part of fooling the defense is when you have to think about all these runs and it's harder to keep
11:37track when you see a puller and you're like
11:39Oh, this is them finally going to power and then it's like oh, nope
11:41They're bootlegging the other way. You totally lost me and one thing I think when it comes to you know
11:46Who you're drafting how will they fit in your scheme?
11:47Is that more open a draft room and war room that we saw where there's more people involved where?
11:53They talked about Caden Wallace Elliot Wolfe did mention that
11:56Yeah, this was a guy that van Pelt Scott Peters and Robert Kubler said this is a good guy
12:00This is guy we think we could turn into a left tackle
12:02So I think it's important to have the scouts say and be like this is the profile
12:06This is the kid. This is all the research I've done and then to give the coaches the ability to say well
12:10I'm gonna be working with this guy. So it's not just the Elliot Wolfe show
12:13It's alright
12:14is this a kind of guy that has a skill set that the people who are gonna be coaching him can work with can adapt
12:19To and kind of get him to fit the system
12:21We're looking for but also curious if what you think about if they maybe went too far with involving people, you know
12:28Obviously, it's a lot of wait-and-see in this process, but you know, it is very different
12:32So I'm curious what you guys thought about that element of the draft process. I like it
12:36I think it's I think it's good to get as many opinions as you can, especially early in the process now
12:41I think you know, we saw the number of people who are actually in the war room on draft weekend place was loaded
12:47It was packed to the gills
12:49I mean more than two dozen people standing there as the Drake May pick is being announced on the broadcast and
12:58So like I think it's important to distinguish between yes throughout the process
13:03Did they hear from a variety of people they did?
13:06On draft weekend were a variety of people involved in the decision-making process
13:11No, you know like it came down to the closer you got to
13:17the end of the process, you know last weekend it the group got smaller and smaller and so I
13:23Like doing that and I believe in the wisdom of the masses
13:27I think if you think you're smarter than everybody else
13:30And there's a
13:32Massive crowd of informed people who believe one thing and you say no. No, no, you guys are all wrong. I've got this
13:38You tend to be more wrong than right. It doesn't mean you should just always follow the crowd
13:43But I think especially with the draft, you know, I think that can
13:49often
13:50Be a valuable way to go about it is bringing as many opinions as possible and then eventually narrow it down from there
13:57So I was okay with that
14:00And as we're talking here just like last thing on the on the on the scheme and the fit for those guys
14:06one thing that I have heard from people who have worked in this type of system before is that it can be very
14:12especially tackle friendly
14:15so if you have a question at left tackle
14:18because you are
14:21Sprinkling in however many and it's gonna depend coach to coaching game to game and game flow and all that will factor into this
14:27But if you can sprinkle in a half dozen play-action
14:31Passes where you know the tackle because you're booting out
14:36You know
14:37Basically doesn't have to just do a traditional
14:41Pass set and try to block a defensive end or an outside linebacker one-on-one
14:46Well now you are saving that guy a half dozen snaps over the course of a game where he could potentially get beat
14:52So you're just limiting the number of true pass sets that somebody who might be a little bit limited has to actually take and
15:00Therefore, maybe you're getting the most out of that guy and you're still buying your quarterback time
15:04And you're still doing all these things that can that can help the pass game overall, but you're actually
15:10Alleviating some of the pressure on your tackle. So, you know if there's a give-and-take
15:14Hey
15:15are that are we always gonna be able to get outside with guys that are a little bit heavier footed than some other offenses around
15:20The league that are running this kind of offense
15:22Maybe but if it can save
15:24Chooks a core for it left tackle, you know five snaps from having to go against TJ
15:29What like we're happy to make that trade off
15:31So anyway, I just that was kind of struck me as we were talking
15:34I think it was an important thing to bring up, but I like the I like the process the way they went about it
15:39I think it'll be interesting
15:40If these guys all stink like we can look back at it and say it was horrible, right Mike
15:44But you know, I think more brains is better early on and then you narrow it down. That makes sense to me
15:49Well, that's that's the thing with this stuff is time will obviously tell I mean
15:52we're gonna sit here in a few minutes and go through draft superlatives and give our overall grade and it's like
15:57All right, you mentioned it Taylor. You have to preface it with way too early because nobody knows right? Nobody knows if
16:03Opening up the war room
16:04but also making sure that Elliott Wolfe has final say it can kind of decipher from opinions if that's gonna be the right thing or
16:11not like
16:11Phil I know you mentioned listening to the masses and then going against them and it felt a lot like
16:16Tugging chic Nikhil Harry stuff, right when everyone's banging on banging the drum for you know
16:20The AJ Browns and the Debo Samuels and instead bill listens to you know
16:25His friend in Herm Edwards and is that right? Is that wrong?
16:28We'll have to see it didn't work the last time but from the outside looking in and at least you know less than a week
16:34Out it felt like there was more collaboration people are
16:38At least now and we'll go through each one happy with the picks that they've made at least for the most part, you know
16:44Seven offensive players one defender
16:47Hitting on hitting on some needs that they had. I I think it's hard to
16:53You know hard to be upset about it right now, but we'll obviously see how it plays out
16:57And build your point about it being tackle friendly
16:59I actually tweeted last week that this offense for Alex van Pelt is quarterback and tackle friendly
17:04Because you do have a lot of resetting the pocket
17:06You have a lot of play action a lot of max protect like we saw last year
17:10They were going through quarterbacks and offensive tackles like crazy and he had to figure out and adapt, right?
17:15How do we make sure we're not just putting these guys out to dry like you saw sometimes with the Patriots last season?
17:20Despite the fact that you're kind of in a tough spot with all these injuries at tackle and then your quarterback
17:25Situations a mess you still saw with Bailey's a fiend but arian low. They're still going to the dropout passing game
17:30It's like nothing really changed
17:31So I do think again like you said with van Pelt when you're running the ball a lot more which is immediately
17:37Easier for your quarterbacks in your offensive line and you're not giving them as many of those true pass sets where it's the
17:43Defense knows exactly what's coming teach you walk and pin his ears back and really get after it
17:47So I thought that was a great point, too
17:49This is a scheme that I think is gonna do a good job of making sure those guys in those premium spots
17:54Aren't really hung out to dry quite as often as we've seen in recent seasons and we're gonna get to the great
17:59We're gonna get to the superlatives first quick word from our friends at prize fix
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19:07All right, so for this episode we are gonna go with our dessert first
19:11We're going over all grades
19:13Just to kind of preface our thoughts a little bit and kind of set the tone for what our superlatives are gonna be
19:18So Mike I'll start with you on this one. What grade did you get way too early grade?
19:23That asterisk for the Patriots this year
19:26I'd find it hard to and I know you have to do it. We have to analyze I or
19:31Analyze this rather immediately. I was just said analyze that goes to show you did
19:36How drafted?
19:41It's you have to immediately analyze this stuff
19:44But realistically you got to give it a B. Everyone gives it a B
19:48I think I saw Mel Cooper jr. Gave out 20 out of 32 B's the other day like it's fine. It's solid
19:54I don't know how these guys are gonna play out, but they hit on the positions they had to
19:58They made a pick and you know, Jalen Polk, which I'll get to
20:02you know, it really felt like a double dip there and I'll explain why in a minute you hit on your franchise quarterback and
20:07You only came out with one defender where a lot of times
20:11This team under Bill Belichick
20:13At least we saw last year might have taken three or four defenders despite having holes to fill on offense
20:19So I'm gonna go with a B
20:21Can't really decide can't really decide how well or how poorly it'll be yet, but for right now middle of the road
20:27Yeah, I guess I would go B plus just because I maybe I give them more credit than most
20:34Just for sticking and picking at three overall and taking Drake may we talked so frequently
20:40It felt like for two months
20:42About what might happen and will they trade down and why they should trade down and that this quarterback is actually a little bit better
20:48Than Drake may and this is the best plan for them because the roster is set up this way
20:52And so I was never a proponent of that plan. I never really especially the closer we got to it
20:59I never believed that it would be their plan
21:02But I do give them credit for staying there when there were trades available to them that might have benefited them in the future
21:10I
21:11applaud them for their
21:14for having conviction in
21:17The fact that Drake may can be a franchise quarterback
21:21So I give them maybe extra credit for that. The reason why it doesn't go higher than that
21:27Taylor is because I just I'm not sure while I like Polk and I like Baker
21:33to me you needed a
21:35One or somebody who projected as a one at that receiver position and you needed a left tackle and I'm not sure they got either
21:42Now maybe they did it maybe two years from now we'll say holy crap
21:45Can you believe they got Caden Wallace in the third round and that guy's you know?
21:48Top of the league at left tackle and Javon Baker. My goodness. This guy is you know, he's Stefan digs part
21:54duh, you know like I just
21:56We can't sit here. I don't think it's a that definitively right now
21:59So had they you know that there was it's all it's always easy to say this in retrospect
22:05But two of my guys quote-unquote my guys
22:08During the draft process at those other two positions were Xavier Liggett and Kingsley suomata
22:13Yeah, and they both were kind of within striking distance for the Patriots. They would have had to trade up for both
22:19But the fact that they they didn't get either
22:24And they weren't aggressive enough it's they they wanted to move up into the first round but they couldn't quite pull it off
22:30You know could they've done a little bit more to actually get to the back end of the first round and get that guy they were
22:34Really looking for that would have bumped it up into the the a-minus or even a range for me
22:40So I'll keep it at a b-plus for now
22:42So I've got it at a b-plus most of that straight thing
22:45I completely agree, especially the day of I'm thinking and this ended up being the what actually happened where they were saying
22:51Well, Kevin O'Connell and Brian Dave all two guys that we know really want this guy if they're gonna move heaven there to get him
22:57Why the hell would we move away from getting this guy? Clearly there's something that's pretty good about him
23:01So the Drake May thing was ripping my hair out, but they stood got the pick
23:06I like that aggressiveness and also actually Cameron Wolf on yesterday
23:09He shed some light on some of the things that were going on behind the scenes with the Patriots
23:13Another reason I give them the b-plus is they did try to get in the first round and apparently they actually had kind of a
23:19Handshake deal with the bills the bills used that to go to the Panthers and they were like, this is our division rival
23:25We'd much rather you have would get then he go to the Patriots
23:28Kind of screwed him over a little bit in the past weren't you happy about that?
23:31And you know, I was obsessed with Xavier with that
23:33I'm saying I literally actually said like a month ago if you have to trade back to the first round to get him do that
23:38So I'm kind of feel validated that that was what they ended up trying to do
23:41So I appreciate they at least did try to go up and get their guy ended up paying off because you get poke
23:47Poke and you get Javon Baker, which I still think those two combined are a better value than an Xavier Leggette considering
23:53This is a long-term rebuild
23:55They know that the way I see it if you have to get your wide receiver one next year
23:58It is what it is
24:00Like you develop you try to get some chemistry with these young guys get them on the field together
24:04I think that's okay with Caden Wallace. I think one
24:07I really do believe that he was somebody that they did like there was the run on tackles and again
24:12That was why they stood Pat
24:13They thought he was a guy that could get in the middle of the third round
24:15But they said you know what if we do that and he's gone then we're screwed because he was objectively the best guy on the
24:20With Kingsley so much idea one thing and I talked with Eric Galco about this the shrine bowl was that
24:27experience I feel like matters more and age because
24:30With the guy who doesn't have a ton of experience with the limited practice that these guys get
24:35It's just easier to teach guys who played a lot of football and have that
24:39Experience what you want them to do and they can catch on more quickly
24:42Versus a guy who just hasn't seen the field very often and with Caden Wallace
24:46He was a guy who's projected to at least be a contributor him Aidan Layton Robinson
24:49We're projected to be at least contributors early on and sooner than later
24:53We're gonna be starters whereas Kingsley so much idea one
24:56He was on the younger side, which again
24:58I think was probably a big part of the evaluation for him
25:00But probably wasn't gonna be playing for you as rookie year. That was a big thing
25:04He needed to develop the only tackle
25:06I really wanted him to get they didn't was Patrick Paul and I feel like he was in that group of guys that went before
25:11They realized they were gonna go and we're like, oh, okay. This is turned into a serious thing
25:15so I feel like they were more aggressive than we wound up seeing and the fact they had conviction did not do the kind of
25:21Bill Belichick thing which right or wrong you could debate but I like that
25:24They said I like our guys. We're not gonna risk trading back and maybe having them there
25:28I think they lucked out with Javon Baker for the most part
25:31I feel like they knew who they wanted they stuck and tried to get those guys. Sometimes it works
25:36Sometimes it didn't but based on what I've heard at least I admire the way they tried to play the game, but I agree
25:41I can't give it an a-minus as much as I want to you know me. Mr
25:44Sunshine and rainbows because they don't have that true number one and they don't have a left tackle where if it was Patrick Paul or Kingsley
25:49I'm like, all right two years three years down the line. You're set there
25:53So I absolutely agree with a lot of your points
25:56All right
25:57Now favorite pick Phil gonna start with you on this one, which these things got you real juiced up. Uh-huh, you know, I
26:05Want to say Drake may here but that feels like the obvious answer
26:09I'm gonna go with Javon Baker because I do like a lot of what he brings to the table
26:14I want to start with the personality because that he made headlines with the quotes soon after he was drafted
26:20But I like the edge. I like the chip on the shoulder. I want especially at that position
26:27I want guys who are a little tapped
26:29Quite frankly, I want that
26:31I want that level of oh this guy might have a little bit of a screw loose that that to me at that position is
26:38Fantastic and I don't think they've I don't know if they've had enough of that
26:42Honestly lately at that position. They got two guys that I think are aptly
26:49Described as dogs. They are competitive. They're feisty. They are fiery on the field
26:54I you know
26:54You can see Javon Baker going down the sideline along touchdown catch and run and waving to the opponents on the sideline blow and kisses
27:01Exactly pointing it guys, right
27:03You know routing guys up and talking trash even when he doesn't get the ball like that
27:07I love that so it starts there for me
27:10He has what looks like great body control good hands to be able to really contested catches
27:15I wrote a story earlier this week and I know it wasn't I wasn't unique to this story
27:21But the fit for me for both Baker ample with Drake May makes a lot of sense
27:26so you get a quarterback who likes to throw the ball down the field and
27:29test tight windows like
27:32Baker's a pretty good match for somebody like that. You want somebody who works the middle of the field the way Drake May
27:37Liked to clearly at North Carolina, you know
27:41Jalen Polk should be able to help him out there because he is so good in traffic and his in his hands are so solid
27:47So the Baker pick for me for a variety reasons and I think you could at least see
27:53Because we saw him play on the outside and play on the outside a lot at UCF
28:00Like to me he almost has more quote-unquote number one upside than even Polk does
28:05I think Polk could be like a solid two for ten years
28:09potentially
28:10Whereas Baker if everything goes right with him now
28:13Maybe you're talking about a legitimate X who can create some separation who can work down the field
28:19I don't care that he ran up a four or five four like
28:22You know Elliot Wolfe and that executive tree that he comes from
28:26You know day two and day three guys
28:28Even if they're not necessarily burners, then the big names are obvious where it's Jordi Nelson or Devante Adams
28:33Those guys were you know, four or five guys
28:37That went in the second round that obviously ended up being massive massive hits
28:40So I that ended up being my favorite pick after Drake May. I
28:47Saved Javon Baker for most likely to make people in wheelchairs stand up for the superlative. So
28:53I'm gonna go with I'm going Jalen Polk and
28:57It's the player as much as it is the execution of getting the player because you talked about the run on wide receivers
29:03They miss at the end of the first round
29:06instead they sit at 34 and
29:09We have to take them for their word right now
29:12Elliot Wolfe said after the pick that they were comfortable taking him at 34 instead
29:16They moved back a little bit got to 37 moved up 27 spots later in the draft
29:21And they take Polk at 37 and then they end up taking Javon Baker with the pick
29:26They they were able to move up for so I love the execution of the way that they were able to again double dip on
29:32Receiver with Polk at 37 and then they take Baker later on
29:36As far as the player you hit on it Phil where he's he doesn't have necessarily true wide receiver one upside
29:42But the comp we I continue to see and I think it makes a lot of sense is a more athletic
29:47Jacobi Myers who is a ball magnet who's trustworthy who can be sort of that binky for your rookie quarterback now granted
29:54He's a rookie coming in. So he has to kind of grow into that but strong hands fights through traffic
29:59just a
30:01Silent assassin, he doesn't have the attitude Baker does but he's you know
30:06Strong and just seems like he's someone who's gonna make it happen and work his ass off to do so
30:10So I think pairing Drake made with a guy like Jalen Polk for the next
30:15Five ten maybe close to 15 years. I've all goes well. I think it's a slam dunk now you could miss
30:22And he might not you know, he might not grow into that type of player
30:26But as of right now, I think that was really solid for them at 37
30:30And again, you can only trust with what they want what they told us and they were comfortable with him at 37. So I like it
30:35Yeah, I think I agree. They're both dogs me just in different ways. Like I was watching Jalen Polk
30:40I think it was against Michigan State or something like that watching him block
30:44I'm like, this is their Pharaoh Brown replacement
30:47Is he really it's in guys faces like when there's a play away from him and he's blocking he gets fired up
30:53Like they just don't really have that Kendrick Bourne gets excited
30:56but it's not in that way where it's a little
30:58antagonistic where
30:59He kind of is gonna talk to you after the play and get you here and Javon Baker does it all the time like you
31:04Mentioned he like blew the kiss. There was a rat
31:06I was watching this morning where he just toasted a guy flipped him around and then went and pointed at him was like ha ha
31:11I got you. No, you see me pointing. Yeah, I got you like that stuff fires me up
31:16So I like having that attitude because it feels like that room is full at nice guys
31:20Like great leaders all that stuff like sometimes you need a couple a-holes, which I really really enjoy
31:25Um, you guys got good picks. I'm just gonna go with the easy one Drake May
31:28I feel like you got the guy who you can go into every draft in the future feeling more confident because it's well
31:34They got the quarterback, you know, you at least have that piece and it's not like a Jaden Daniels who for me every year
31:40I would be worried
31:41Is he gonna make it through the season?
31:42Whether he stops with like putting himself in harm's way the frame still scares me if it's a bad weather game
31:48You're gonna have to go in thinking
31:49Alright, if he has to make a like if you see it a deep corner to the opposite hash
31:52Is he gonna have the arm strength that fit into a tight window?
31:55I would be concerned about those things with Jaden with Caleb. I mean he was never really an option
31:59So I'm not even gonna like Caleb Williams is fantastic. I would have been happy with him and then with JJ
32:04It's like he's gonna have to grow physically and also develop certain parts of his game that aren't there words with Drake
32:10He showed all the flashes. He literally was making all the throws
32:13You're just hoping you can do it consistently clearly has the mentality to do it
32:17So yeah
32:17I feel like getting that guy who you know
32:19You can go into games and all these matchups in this loaded AFC and be like hey as long as we have the supporting cast
32:25And the coaches this guy's gonna be able to win us games with the last possession
32:29He can march down the field and win
32:31Obviously didn't have as much success as a Jaden Daniels or a Caleb Williams at the college level
32:36But you saw it in 2022 when he's ACC offensive player of the year talked about in the kind of Heisman conversation
32:42It just wasn't a very good team
32:43So you guys went with the better pace, but I'm just gonna go for the layups Drake made my guy
32:48We got some more pics first quick word from our friends at game time
32:51Be right back with the NBA playoffs in full swing and the Celtics looking like the best team in the east
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34:08All right now maybe a category we can show some more love to some of the mid to later round guys don't have to
34:13But just to try to maybe get them into the conversation. How about some of your best values from the Patriots draft class? Oh
34:20Okay, this is a good one because I I think this is my opportunity to talk about Joe Milton I
34:26Love this. I love the approach. I I don't care that they drafted Drake made three overall
34:33I like adding at that position late in the draft. This is how you do it. This is how you stockpile assets potential assets
34:40I'm not saying I know Joe Milton's gonna be able to play in the NFL clearly is a long way to go in terms of
34:46You know
34:48adapting to the pro game
34:50coming from the system that he came from at Tennessee and
34:52Learning, you know some of the nuances in terms of how to rein in that tremendous physical skill set
34:57But this is how you do it. It's not
35:00Pay a veteran a hundred million dollars guaranteed and then draft a guy at eight overall
35:04cough cough
35:06Atlanta like that's not that's not to me the smart way to do it
35:10This is the smarter way to do it invest in a player that is the future at that position and then
35:17Continue to double down with cheaper investments because that guy I mean Joe Milton. Could you not see Joe Milton going out and playing?
35:26relatively well in a preseason in a few preseason games for two seasons in a row and then the Patriots are able to flip him for
35:31Another pick if Drake may end up being the player you think he's going to be so that to me is smart asset management
35:37It's smart
35:38it's a smart
35:39developmental plan at the most important position in the sport and to do it with a guy who has the skill set that he has
35:44which is obviously
35:46Off the charts in a few different ways you put them together with some some pretty good quarterbacks coaches
35:52We think and Alex van Peltz and Ben McAdoo
35:54That to me is is great value, even if he ends up never taking a snap for you
35:59But he ends up yielding you a pick down the line. I love that approach. I love that philosophy
36:04That is the Packer way in action. I know Patriots fans are probably sick of hearing that but that's what it is and it's smart
36:10That's probably my best value from this draft class for the Patriots
36:14So Taylor, I feel like I'm definitely stealing this one from you not stealing it from you
36:18But I know that you're probably gonna agree with me, but it's Jaheim Bell in round seven. I mean
36:23Yeah, like I mean, come on a guy who on some boards I saw could have been a top 150 pick goes at 231
36:30We talked about him earlier in our draft coverage Taylor on the show a
36:35Guy where if you took him at 150, you didn't know if you loved it or you know in and around that area
36:39But for him to fall at 231, I mean they had a lot of interest in him. They had 30 visit with him
36:44They met with him exclusively at Florida State's Pro Day
36:47And there is a need for that type of player on this team
36:51Austin Hooper is only on a one-year deal Hunter Henry's obviously your lead tight end
36:55But you can also use them at H back you can use him
36:59He might have some special teams value to with the way this, you know, the new kickoff rules and stuff are happening
37:03So like that's a guy who yes, he's your seventh round pick not often. Do your seventh round picks make your team?
37:08it's more so just to get him in the building and see what happens, but I think Jaheim Bell is a
37:13Great player to get as late as you did and just adds another body to your offense that so desperately needs talent
37:20So I love the the value of getting him that late in the draft. I
37:24Agree especially with Bell
37:26We were talking about him in the fit
37:28Even I was like, I don't know just because he is someone you're gonna have to scheme for like there's a there's versatility
37:35In two different ways where sometimes you're like, oh, yeah, he can do everything and it's like can he do everything?
37:40Or are you putting him in a certain spot for a certain situation?
37:43Because he can't do other things and that's kind of where I am with you
37:46He and Bill also not really a dynamic athlete, but that said I do think he's athletic. He can break tackles
37:51He's tough after the catch wasn't used downfield a lot at Florida State
37:55But did show some of that downfield ability to track passes to make difficult adjustments
37:59and even though I don't think he's a great blocker, which is why I don't like the you check comparisons like I
38:04One you check is another one of those Debo types where it's one of one like people compare
38:09Players to them because they do something at a level that nobody else does
38:12I don't think he's as flexible or as effective as a blocker, but the efforts there
38:16So if you put him in the right positions like it's a crack block or something. It's like, alright
38:20Yeah, this guy is 240 pounds is probably better than one of our receivers that kind of thing
38:24I think you could use him. Well, I'm gonna go with another easy pick. I'm gonna go with Javon Baker
38:28You know, I obviously I was pounding the table for this guy in the third round at the beginning of the fourth round
38:35I literally tweeted right before they picked him. I was like, you know what if they get above means and that's your second receiver
38:40I'm happy. I'm good. I'm not even gonna get myself excited about Javon Baker
38:45Came in and I flipped out
38:46but I really like him because
38:49I'm coming down a little bit from the wide receiver one upside a little bit just because in my head
38:55He looks a lot like funny
38:57You mentioned it they'll step on digs where neither guy is really a burner
39:00But the way they run their routes the physicality the attitude the hands the effortless hands at times
39:06I see so much of those similarities where I'm like they can win in similar ways now
39:11I don't think Baker has the top-end speed where there's that extra gear for digs where he can really break away
39:16I'm not so sure Baker has that and the biggest gap with these two is the consistency where with digs
39:22He's all about consistency. And that's what made him a great receiver is he doesn't have the craziest physical profile
39:27But he does everything right and he's a dog
39:30Whereas with Baker it's like Steve Smith said he makes the hard catches look easy and the easy catches look hard
39:34He misses a lot of easy ones. You see a lot of lack of refinement in his routes where he's got a lot of tools
39:39He knows how to manipulate guys. Sometimes it takes too long. Sometimes he does a little bit too much and in this timing-based offense
39:46He's gonna have to trim that down
39:47But at the same time the talent like I do think he could be a low-end wide receiver one for your team
39:52Although I think his best potential we talked about this in the car
39:54Mike is if he can be your number two more and then maybe Jalen pokes your slot tomorrow Douglas is your four
40:00That turns into I think if these guys develop well one of the best wide receiver course in the NFL
40:05But again, I think you do need that true alpha
40:08Until Baker shows it to me. I just can't really rely on him hitting that kind of ceiling
40:12All right, last one Phil before we get you out of here. Very grateful for your time
40:16Biggest sleeper from this Patriots draft class another maybe excuse to show some love to the underrated guys
40:22Or maybe some guys that just aren't getting a lot of love that were picked even in the mid round
40:26So Mike we'll start with you. What do you think?
40:30Well, I hope I don't I hope I don't take Phil's like I just took yours
40:33But I'm going Marcellus dial defensive back. Like if you're gonna spend one
40:38You're gonna spend one pick on a defender. It might as well be a defensive back for this team
40:42You're you're short on corners
40:44You're short on a free safety a guy who I keep seeing the joke, but a guy you can spin the dial with. Haha
40:51Is is a guy in Marcellus dial. He's athletic
40:55he
40:57he's shown an ability to
41:00At least play outside corner and then also move and kind of be everywhere and be someone like
41:05Be someone you can use on your entire back end. So
41:09Again, six round pick seventh round pick guys who could sneaky not make the team
41:12but I think Marcella thought I was gonna be on this roster and I think they're gonna use him a lot of different ways in
41:17The defensive backfield because they need help back there. So they like them. They're confident in it
41:21So I think he could sneaky he could sneak you come in and make a bigger impact than people some people want to believe
41:28All right, so
41:30This is gonna be the sexiest answer. We've had this entire program here. All right, what if I told you that?
41:37The offensive draft pick who plays more snaps than any other Patriots rookie is laid in Robinson
41:45Okay
41:49Guards
41:50Let's talk guards. Damn it. I think there's a chance this guy ends up starting like week one for you
41:57And I think Jim Nagy
42:00Executive director of the Senior Bowl made a great point
42:04recently, I believe he was on WEI and
42:07said this guy's a guard only and if you take a guard only in the fourth round and
42:13He's not your backup as your you know as your center and he's not giving you that three-position versatility that teams want from their fourth
42:21interior offensive lineman
42:23That means you might be planning on that guy starting and I remember talking to teams
42:27After the Cole strange pick a couple years ago, man
42:30If you take a guard in the first round, I don't know if this is how the Patriots system is set up now
42:34These are not Patriots people. These are
42:37Other clubs if you took a guard in the first round
42:40That means you believe he has all pro upside you think he is that kind of player if you take a guard in the second
42:46Round you believe he is a pro bowler
42:48If you take a guard in the third or fourth round that guy should be playing for you and playing a lot
42:53Very soon and so if that's how the Patriots look at that position now
42:57I just look at the uncertainty at left guard or right guard, whichever one you want to put it where where city?
43:03So is not playing
43:05Between Cole strange's injury and he has had a difficult time when he's been on the field, you know
43:10I just think there's enough uncertainty there where they may see him as a
43:16Contributor and very early on and so there's a chance with Drake may maybe getting a sort of a redshirt year
43:25You know Polk should be playing and playing right away
43:27But you know if Robinson's you're starting guard that you know, if he doesn't get hurt that guy should be out there for every snap
43:32so
43:34That to me I guess is is my sleeper. He might be he might end up being
43:39the most consistent contributor to this offense in
43:442024 I could see a path to that. I
43:46Was actually gonna go to Layton as well for a lot of the reasons that you already mentioned
43:49I think Polk is probably gonna be the guy from the offensive class
43:53Then is a contributing more just because of what he brings and I think he can really just get on the field
43:58Maybe be the exit times, but I feel like he's such a pro ready player, but I agree with Robinson
44:03I think it did send a message that whatever they think of Cole strange whether it's consistency or health or whatever
44:09It did seem like he was being put on notice, especially after the Caden Wallace
44:12We have the panic like what does this mean for Cole Robinson? It's like, yeah, I know they're serious about this
44:17Cassidy so was very good. He was inconsistent, but you also had him a tackle all summer
44:21So I'd love to see what he can do also would love to see Cole strange at center Cole strange
44:25Jake Andrews battling it out next summer. Who knows? I think that could be really fun
44:28Oh, but I agree with Robinson the burst the length to really shut guys down early
44:33Like he's not the best at mirroring and the most like explosive guy laterally
44:37But I think the fact that he can get hands on guys really quickly and when he does like it's over
44:41It's kind of got like a little Mike and when to win him in that regard
44:44I like his fit there as a pass blocker
44:46I think he also has experience pulling which is gonna be big in this system
44:50So I do like him since there's not a lot of really great other sleeper picks. I'm gonna go with an undrafted free agent
44:56Jacob Warren out of Tennessee Milton's old teammate now. This is a guy who one brings a skill set
45:03They don't really have a tight end
45:05I think he's got the size to be an inline blocker and be there consistently which
45:10Hunter Henry can be that guy Austin Hooper to a lesser degree can be that guy
45:14But as we saw last year when they had Pharaoh Brown
45:16They weren't really putting hunter Henry on the line unless it was 11 personnel
45:19That wasn't really a place that it seemed like they wanted him to live because he's more of an off-ball guy
45:24He's more of a big slot receiver who can get in the way as a blocker, but isn't really a mover now
45:29I love Warren's effort. He's a really smart guy
45:32He was a team captain like the character profile stands out is
45:35He's probably gonna be one of those guys that puts in a ton of effort and if there's a spot to be had
45:39He's gonna do everything he can to secure it also gives you positional versatility
45:43He had experience in the slot. He played running back. He was in the backfield offline that versatility is interesting again that intelligence to pick
45:50Up different spots blocking in space as well where it's not just in line
45:54You can use them in a lot of different roles. He's a big dude big body
45:57Also a crazy long wingspan soft hands. You can use them in the red zone
46:02You can use them over the middle on some of your play action stuff
46:05I just think he's gonna find a way to make this team again because they need someone with his kind of skill set and
46:11I also love the intangibles
46:12He and Deshaun Fenwick are my guys where I really think the undrafted for agent streak is gonna snap and it's gonna be at least
46:17One of those guys so I'll go with Jacob Warren as my sleeper pick
46:21I'm excited to actually get to camp and see him, but we're gonna wrap this up fellas had a bunch of fun Phil
46:26Thank you so much for your time. Please. Let the people know where they can find you what great stuff
46:30You got coming down the pipeline. Thank you guys for having me. This was a blast
46:33You can find all my stuff at Philly Perry on Twitter
46:37We are still going to be diving into all these draft picks and how the Patriots might use them on the next Pats podcast
46:43You can find that at all of your podcasting apps and on YouTube watch us early edition six o'clock
46:49BST ten o'clock depending on what's going on with the Celtics
46:53Obviously, we're gonna be really focused on on Celtics and Bruins as they continue to make their runs
46:57But football is always a topic of conversation on NBC Sports Boston. So make sure you check us out there
47:03Thanks, buddy Mike what you got coming? Oh boy
47:07Behind the mic podcast you can check that out. I'll have Patriots coverage at CLNS media as well alongside Taylor and
47:14Just waiting to get to camp and see what happens with these Patriots
47:17So follow along on Twitter at my cabinet for for all the Patriots coverage. Yes, sir, and shameless self plug tomorrow
47:23I will be doing a draft recap show with Evan Lazar watch out for that and then on the CLNS media website
47:29I did a deep deep dive on Alex
47:32Yeah, really all things in why Drake may is the perfect quarterback for that system
47:36It's a long read but it's years of quotes and stats and film
47:39I think you guys are gonna like it and it's more Drake may hype we got time never enough of that
47:44Appreciate you guys for joining and appreciate you all for watching as always now. Take care of yourselves. Take care of each other
47:50We will see you next time. Peace y'all
47:59You