War in Sudan: UNHCR's Filippo Grandi speaks to France 24

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00:00 It's been exactly a year since the start of the war in Sudan, which has pushed the country

00:05 to the brink of famine.

00:06 With that in mind, an international conference involving top diplomats and aid groups has

00:10 been held here in Paris, aimed at drumming up support for the Sudanese people.

00:15 President Macron says that donors have pledged more than 2 billion euros in aid.

00:20 But more than 8.5 million people have been forced to flee their homes there, and it's

00:24 created the world's largest displacement crisis.

00:26 I'm going to speak now to the UN High Commissioner for Refugees, Filippo Grandi.

00:31 What I want to find out first is what was achieved at today's conference.

00:35 One very important thing.

00:37 I hope it put Sudan on the map again, this very neglected crisis.

00:45 This was one of the main purposes of the conference that France, Germany and the EU organised.

00:53 Then there were substantive pledges for the humanitarian effort, estimated at 2 billion

00:59 euros.

01:00 This is still an estimate.

01:02 That's good because that was a humanitarian response that suffered from great underfunding.

01:08 And then there was a segment, this is not the segment I participated in, but a political

01:13 segment in which there was, if I understand correctly, a renewed effort, a renewed commitment

01:22 to really bring this war to an end.

01:25 Because without that, of course, we will be stuck with the need for a gigantic humanitarian

01:30 effort for a long time to come.

01:33 You raise a lot of interesting points.

01:34 I want to ask you why you think it is that a conflict on this scale that has caused such

01:39 enormous displacement of human beings has been so neglected by the international community.

01:45 And yours is such an important question.

01:48 I don't know if there is an answer.

01:51 Naturally, there is "competition".

01:54 There has been Ukraine almost at the same time.

01:59 There has been Gaza in the last few months.

02:02 And those are conflicts that have attracted more attention.

02:08 There is perhaps, and this is a terrible thing to say and to think about, a certain fatigue

02:14 for crisis in Africa, as if people in Africa suffered less than in other places.

02:21 So there is a variety of issues that have conspired to make this crisis, as you said,

02:27 invisible, when in actual fact it's one of the biggest political, security and humanitarian

02:33 crises in the world today.

02:35 That 2 billion euros that was pledged to Sudan today, were you surprised by that amount or

02:41 were you expecting more?

02:42 I think it's a good result.

02:45 We have now to ensure, or donors will have to ensure, that this money is disbursed quickly.

02:53 Sometimes big conferences happen, big amounts are pledged, and then it takes a long time

02:58 to see actually this money become available to be utilized.

03:03 But I'm confident the pledges were quite strong today.

03:06 So I think it's a good result.

03:08 Remember, the United Nations at the beginning of this year, several months into this crisis,

03:15 put out an appeal for 4 billion dollars.

03:19 And up to this conference, less than 7 percent was funded.

03:24 So I'm confident that this injection of funds will revitalize also the humanitarian response.

03:30 Once again, that's not the final answer.

03:33 The final answer is peace, is ceasefire, is a successful political negotiation.

03:39 But at least waiting for that to happen, because it will take inevitably much time, we can

03:45 help the people that are affected by the crisis.

03:47 It's a desperate situation, isn't it, for the Sudanese people, those who are in Sudan,

03:53 those who are displaced and living in other countries.

03:57 And clearly there's a huge challenge getting the aid to the people that need them, notably

04:01 in Sudan, where there are numerous reports of aid and pledges being looted long before

04:07 it gets anywhere near to the people that need it.

04:10 Not only looted, but the humanitarian effort has been hampered willingly by the parties

04:17 to the conflict.

04:18 And remember, there's a tendency to look at this conflict in a bit of a simplistic manner.

04:24 If you are in them, like we are, like my colleagues are, day in and day out, you see that they're

04:29 extremely complicated, lots of local commanders, warlords, and very complex negotiations on

04:37 the ground.

04:38 This has been a powerful obstacle to delivering aid.

04:42 The complexity, the difficulty of these negotiations, the diversion of aid, the inability to cross

04:51 front lines, to do cross-border.

04:53 Now, today at the conference, there was also a very unanimous commitment to address these

04:59 issues.

05:00 And I hope that we will get more international support to overcome these obstacles.

05:06 And of course, help is needed for Sudan's neighbours, countries like Egypt, Chad, South

05:11 Sudan, Ethiopia, the Central African Republic, countries that have got plenty of social and

05:17 economic problems of their own.

05:19 What's being done to support those countries and the refugees living in those countries?

05:23 The pledges of today, the commitments of today were equally for the situation inside Sudan

05:30 and for the neighbouring countries.

05:32 They were also all represented there.

05:34 You know, I have to say, as the High Commissioner for Refugees, we must recognise that even

05:41 countries with enormous challenges, like you said, like Chad, for example, or South Sudan,

05:47 have kept borders open and have taken in all the people in distress that were fleeing from

05:54 Sudan.

05:55 But the international response has not been up to that generosity.

05:59 It has been taken a bit for granted.

06:01 So I hope that this conference will be a turning point.

06:04 We have to help Chad.

06:05 This is an extremely fragile country.

06:08 Remember, Sudan on one side and countries in complex political transitions in the Sahel

06:14 on the other one.

06:16 And South Sudan, a country emerging itself from decades of civil war.

06:20 So these are very fragile countries.

06:22 They need help if we want them to continue to provide sanctuary to the fleeing Sudanese.

06:30 Just before we move on from Sudan to other issues, did you get any sense at today's conference

06:34 that there is any progress being made to bringing that conflict in Sudan to some sort of a resolution?

06:40 I felt, I can't say with certainty, but I felt that there was a renewed commitment.

06:49 I mean, President Macron closed the conference with very strong words about the need for

06:57 the international community at large to be unanimous in its effort to bring the conflict

07:05 to a close.

07:06 He stigmatized, and rightly so, and some of us did it as well.

07:10 He stigmatized interferences which are strengthening one side or the other and hence perpetuating

07:17 the war instead of being part of a collective peace effort.

07:22 So I felt that there was a renewed energy on that front as well.

07:28 We have to hope that this commitment is upheld, is kept, is maintained.

07:32 Okay, let's move on from Sudan to a news story which I think has captured the attention of

07:38 newsrooms right across the world, the situation in Israel and in the Palestinian territories.

07:43 Let's focus on Gaza and the situation there and these threats by the Israelis that they're

07:48 going to carry out a military operation in Rafah, which is on the border with Egypt,

07:52 as you know.

07:53 Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians are seeking refuge there in Rafah.

07:58 Were the Israelis to invade that town or carry out a major military operation there,

08:04 what would happen to the people who are seeking sanctuary in Rafah?

08:09 You know I've said it several times but let me repeat it again.

08:15 Another renewed, new refugee crisis, meaning people having no other options but either

08:23 be under the bombs or having to flee to Egypt, will be an unbearable dilemma because everybody

08:30 knows that another refugee crisis for people that already suffer from an unresolved ancient

08:39 refugee situation would be catastrophic in so many ways, from the humanitarian point

08:44 of view, from the perspective of these people being able to go back to Gaza.

08:49 I would even go further and say this would be the nail in the coffin of any peace process.

08:56 Just like the refugee, Palestinian refugee issue has been an important element of this

09:02 unresolved peace process, a new refugee crisis would really condemn the process to being

09:08 unresolved forever.

09:09 So I hope, I hope that that terrible dilemma doesn't happen.

09:15 And frankly I think that Israel as the occupying power in Gaza has the responsibility for this

09:22 not to happen.

09:23 And this is why from this perspective I want to join the Secretary General and everybody

09:27 else who has said that that offensive should not occur, that another solution should be

09:34 found to this terrible crisis.

09:37 Indeed it's been more than 76 years since the other Palestinian refugee crisis was triggered.

09:44 I just want to ask you lastly about the level of preparedness the UNHCR has for another

09:50 mass departure from the Palestinian territories.

09:52 Are you making contingencies in the event that perhaps Palestinian people are pushed

09:58 and forced to go and live in Egypt?

09:59 The preparedness for such crisis, and once again let's hope we don't get to that point,

10:05 are the responsibility and the prerogative of the countries in the region, in particular

10:10 of Egypt.

10:12 We stand ready to help any country in the region who may be impacted by an extension

10:17 of the conflict.

10:20 The scenario you prospected, but also Lebanon, which is extremely exposed.

10:26 By the way, everybody is always looking at Egypt, but we should not forget there's almost

10:30 100,000 people that have been displaced from southern Lebanon.

10:35 This has already happened as a result of the tensions between Israel and Lebanon, and those

10:41 need help now.

10:42 So we have made contingency planning that can be applied to any part of the region where

10:47 a deterioration of the humanitarian situation may occur.

10:51 UNHCR, my organization, does not have a mandate to operate inside Gaza.

10:56 That's UNRWA's prerogative, and it is important that that is maintained and respected.

11:02 But of course, should God forbid, I repeat, God forbid the conflict extend, we need to

11:08 make preparedness measures and we do whatever we can, but under the guidance of the states

11:14 that will be impacted if that were to happen.

11:19 I really hope not.

11:20 Like I said, this is a dilemma we should not be facing.

11:24 So just to press you on this point, were there to be a mass exodus of Palestinians from Rafah

11:30 into Egypt, would there be facilities at their disposal were it to happen, say, tomorrow?

11:36 Field hospitals, is that stuff in place?

11:39 We have regional preparedness that can be applied to any situation, but you are pressing

11:47 me and I'm pressing you back.

11:49 I hope it doesn't happen.

11:51 It must not happen.

11:52 It would be catastrophic in so many ways.

11:55 OK.

11:56 Filippo Grande, the UN High Commissioner for Refugees, thank you very much indeed.

11:59 Thank you very much.

12:00 [MUSIC PLAYING]

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