The Roar: Reaction as SAFC lose sixth game on bounce
Reaction from Sunderland Echo writers James Copley and Joe Nicholson as Sunderland lose their sixth game on the bounce against Southampton.
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00:00 He said he's not afraid to make bold decisions and will make the decision that he feels is right for the team.
00:05 I'm really reluctant to hammer these players too much.
00:07 Yes, they've lost six on the bounce, but I do think there's mitigation, Joe,
00:11 in terms of them being, let's face it, let down in consecutive transfer windows.
00:29 Hello, welcome to the Raw podcast brought to you by the Sunderland Echo.
00:33 James Copley joined by Joe Nicholson here today,
00:36 fresh from Sunderland's sixth straight loss in the championship.
00:40 Not a sentence I wanted to be saying against Southampton on Saturday.
00:44 Joe, you were at St Mary's, a very tough afternoon for Sunderland,
00:49 obviously going 2-0 down, not playing very well.
00:52 Then there was a very brief resurgence, which I guess showed what this young team can do,
00:57 but then it sort of epitomised where the squad is at the moment, isn't it?
01:01 There is talent there, but they're missing a lot.
01:04 Soon after that, the two goals came for Southampton.
01:06 Sunderland ended up losing the game 4-2, six losses on the bounce, as I mentioned earlier.
01:10 It's a bit of a tough spot at the moment, isn't it, for such a young group?
01:14 It is, yes. Another difficult afternoon against a side that obviously came down from the Premier League last season,
01:21 have a lot more resources than what Sunderland do,
01:23 but also these are the sort of sides that Sunderland are going to be competing with to get in the playoffs
01:28 and to get promoted, which is where the club wants to be.
01:33 I thought in the first half, to be honest, Sunderland were quite fortunate to only be 2-0 down.
01:37 It could have been more. It looked like Southampton were in second or third gear and had more gears to go into.
01:44 Sunderland managed to get in at half-time, only 2-0 down.
01:47 They do deserve credit for coming back in that second half.
01:51 Two good goals, one from Mundell, which took a deflection and an excellent strike from Bellingham,
01:55 but then the way that they let it slip again at the end,
01:58 and they looked really stretched at the back when Dan Ballard went off injured,
02:02 which I'm sure we'll come on to in the podcast, and the goals that they gave away to then lose the game 4-2.
02:08 They'll be really disappointed with those, having worked so hard to get back on level terms
02:12 and look like they may get something from the game to give away two goals like that,
02:16 where Joe Rothwell had loads of space to convert those chances.
02:20 It will be really disappointing.
02:23 Mike Dodds, as you can expect, was down after the game, tried to be positive,
02:27 tried to pick the team up and to give hope for the fans,
02:31 but it's six defeats in a row now. It's a really tough period.
02:35 - It is, and I'm seeing a lot of criticism of individual players, and I think some of it is fair enough.
02:41 Obviously, you look at what's on the pitch, you look at the mistakes,
02:44 particularly Joe Bellingham for the first goal where he heads it across the six-yard box.
02:49 That is poor. Hopefully, his awareness gets better as time goes on,
02:54 but I'm really reluctant, Joe, to give these players on the pitch too much stick.
02:59 I think the average age of Sunderland's team to start at 11 was 21 years old.
03:05 Now, that is the youngest start at 11 average age in the Championship
03:09 since the website TransferMarkt started producing those records 20 years ago,
03:15 which gives you a little flavour.
03:17 So, I'm really reluctant to hammer these players too much.
03:19 Yes, they've lost six on the bounce, but I do think there's mitigation, Joe,
03:23 in terms of they've been, let's face it, let down in consecutive transfer windows.
03:28 There's an interim head coach there that is doing his best, but isn't experienced as they are.
03:34 There's injuries. There's a lot going on at Sunderland at the moment,
03:38 and a lot of it, you could argue, self-inflicted really from above.
03:42 But I think it is positive that Sunderland do have so many young, bright players,
03:48 but yet you do run the risk of seriously denting their confidence long-term,
03:54 just given the limitations in the squad and the parameters in which they're having to play under.
03:58 It's tough.
04:00 Yes, and you mentioned that start on TransferMarkt.
04:02 So, Sunderland's team against Southampton was the lowest average age this season for a starting 11,
04:07 which was 21 years old.
04:09 And the previous youngest team this season was the team that played for Sunderland against Leicester.
04:14 One choose, just a few days earlier, so it just shows.
04:17 And I think maybe the fourth lowest was the team that started against Swansea,
04:20 which Mike Dodds took charge of.
04:22 So, you take Luka Nain out, who's only 29, isn't he?
04:26 He's the oldest player in the Sunderland team.
04:29 And the average age just drops even lower.
04:31 And Dan Ballard was the oldest Sunderland player that started against Southampton.
04:36 He even went off with a hamstring injury.
04:38 He's only 24.
04:39 And remember, he's only been at the club a year and a half,
04:42 and he was injured for a lot of last season.
04:45 So, you're relying on him to be kind of your senior player,
04:48 and he's only got limited experience in the first team.
04:50 Already, he's seen as one of the senior players and a very important player.
04:55 And it just shows, like, you can look at it two ways,
04:58 because Sunderland have a very young group of players that, in theory, are going to get better,
05:02 in theory, are going to increase in value.
05:04 But also, you do need that mix and that blend of youth and experience.
05:08 And last season, they seemed to have that kind of right balance of youthfulness.
05:13 But then they had the people like Danny Barth, like Lyndon Gooch,
05:15 who may not have been first-team regulars this season,
05:18 but in the dressing room, they're going to be very influential players,
05:21 very influential figures.
05:22 Alex Pritchard's another one.
05:23 And it seems like they've just kind of gone too far one way right now,
05:28 and they've packed the team with young, talented players.
05:32 But there needs to be that balance there.
05:34 And it just seems like Sunderland haven't quite got that at the minute.
05:36 You look at the options on the bench,
05:38 obviously, that is because of some injuries to key players as well.
05:42 But two under-21s players on the bench again on Saturday,
05:47 Tom Lavery and Harrison Jones, who haven't played for the first team.
05:50 And you compare that to Southampton's bench,
05:52 when they're bringing on Kaledin Sulamara,
05:56 who I think was a £25 million signing in the Premier League.
05:59 Joe Rothwell comes on, is a top-end Championship player,
06:02 at least maybe a Premier League player, and he scores two goals.
06:06 Sekou Mara is another one that came off the bench.
06:08 These are players that are just on the bench,
06:09 and it was similar when Sunderland played Leicester a few weeks ago,
06:12 or a few days ago even.
06:13 So, yeah, it kind of shows the difference between the two squads
06:17 and the approach that Sunderland have taken.
06:20 They've come and got some very good deals out of that.
06:22 But right now, it just seems like they've tipped the balance too far one way,
06:25 and they've got a team of very young and inexperienced players.
06:28 So when you go through a difficult moment like this,
06:30 it's very difficult for them to lift the squad and get them out of it.
06:35 - I guess it's sort of twofold in a way, isn't it?
06:37 Because there's no doubt that, say, for instance,
06:41 if Danny Bart was still at the club,
06:43 he would have likely improved Sunderland's chances of winning that game.
06:47 But then Sunderland have invested in Jenson Seed.
06:50 Now, I happen to think that Jenson Seed will be a good centre-back for Sunderland one day,
06:54 but it's that thing, isn't it,
06:56 where you can be caught in between wanting to develop young players,
07:00 but also, as you mentioned, you can go too far with it,
07:03 and you can have a lack of experience in your squad.
07:06 And I think when you start to lose games, especially six on the bounce,
07:10 that really does start to show.
07:12 I mean, Alex Pritchard, another one,
07:14 I know his contract situation was handled badly,
07:17 and it was wrong on both sides,
07:18 but I think they're really feeling his absence at the moment as well.
07:23 A player like Lyndon Gooch,
07:25 now, you can argue whether Lyndon Gooch would have started this season for Sunderland,
07:29 probably not.
07:30 Would he have even started against Southampton?
07:33 I'm not sure, but just having him in and around that group.
07:35 Now, you can't keep a player in and around the group
07:37 just because they're good with the group and they understand the club,
07:39 but I do think Lyndon Gooch could have contributed for Sunderland at some point this season.
07:44 I do understand and accept the model,
07:46 and I think both of us, Joe, would praise some of the work that's been done with the model.
07:51 And we've done that several times on this podcast,
07:54 but it just seemed to me where the model needed tweaking in the summer, January,
08:00 even the January before last summer when they ended up with Joe Gelhardt and players of that ilk,
08:06 it needed tweaks and improvements and a little bit of investment here and there
08:11 and a little bit of added experience.
08:12 And it made the striker situation really solid with experience and a proven goalscorer.
08:16 And it actually feels like they went the other way, Joe, doesn't it?
08:20 Less experience, not buying a proven goalscorer.
08:24 And it's strange, isn't it?
08:26 And I go back to my earlier point that it just feels a shame that a lot of these young, talented players
08:32 are getting a bit of a hammering now.
08:34 - Who are kind of the voices in the dressing room, I would say.
08:36 I think now Mowbray and Beale have both said the team needs a bit more experience.
08:42 They've kind of questioned the model.
08:44 And you just think back to last season, you'd have had people like Danny Barr, Lyndon Gooch,
08:48 probably Pritchard, would be the ones that would be stepping up in the dressing room.
08:52 Now, who out of the younger Sunderland players are the ones that are going to step up and be vocal?
08:58 - Particularly, Joe, just on that point that you make, those players will have known at some point
09:04 what it's like to lose 3, 4, 5, 6 on the spin.
09:06 A lot of these players probably don't and have never been through this before.
09:10 And that could actually be hugely damaging when you don't have somebody saying,
09:15 "Look, I've been through this. It's going to be OK. We'll do this. We'll do that."
09:20 You sort of feel like you're going into things a bit blind, don't you,
09:23 when you don't have that guidance?
09:25 - And you need, I think, a mixture of voices as well.
09:28 I think Mowbray said this before when he was here,
09:30 like the players would just get sick of just hearing his voice in the dressing room.
09:34 You need kind of other people to chip in.
09:37 And I think Mike Dodds said after the game on Saturday,
09:39 there was a dispute in the dressing room at half-time.
09:41 I'm not quite sure who that was between and what that was about.
09:44 I think it was about the man-marking system.
09:46 Someone had lost their man and there was a bit of a dispute.
09:49 So that's probably a better sign that the players are kind of questioning things.
09:55 But you just feel like, yeah, there was maybe a lack of senior players there to step up.
09:59 - I think, Joe, I want to touch upon this idea of expectation.
10:02 Obviously, Sunderland fans aren't happy because they've lost 6 on the bounce.
10:06 And rightly so. Sunderland should never lose 6 on the bounce, you would think, in any league,
10:10 never mind in the Championship where they've historically been so decent.
10:14 I think it's the first time since 2006 that Sunderland have actually lost 6 on the bounce,
10:18 which when you consider some of the seasons in between that,
10:21 the relegation season, the Premier League, the relegation season,
10:24 and the Championship, some of the seasons in League One,
10:27 it's pretty good going, really.
10:29 But I think it's a shame because Sunderland had and have a pretty good base in terms of the talent.
10:37 And again, in terms of the squad composition, the squad building,
10:40 and what, well, people can debate about Tony Mowbray,
10:42 but what was sort of brewing under Tony Mowbray, particularly towards the back end of last season,
10:46 was really, really, really good, really positive.
10:49 And it just needed a few little things.
10:50 And I think that's where the sort of anger that I'm seeing is coming from, Joe.
10:55 And this expectation hasn't just appeared out of nowhere.
10:59 Kristen Speakman's on record as saying that Sunderland weren't satisfied with the playoffs
11:02 and sacking Tony Mowbray, you know, reading his words afterwards and the noises coming out of the club,
11:08 it was a decision taken to progress the club, and that just hasn't happened.
11:12 So I can completely understand the frustration from Sunderland fans at the moment.
11:17 - I think firstly, like last season, the team did overachieve.
11:20 I think that was pretty clear getting up to six.
11:22 Mike Dodds said this in his pre-match press conference last week,
11:26 that if they'd have lost that game against Preston on the last day of the season,
11:29 they could have finished 12th, exactly.
11:31 And then suddenly you've got a completely different kind of picture in how you view it.
11:35 And then maybe this season, ninth or 10th is seen as progress.
11:39 If they'd finished 17th last season, then maybe 12th place looks like progress this season.
11:44 But the fact that they did finish sixth, then means that everyone kind of expects a playoff.
11:49 I think Sunderland have too many points to be kind of dragged into relegation.
11:54 You know, I say that, you can never say never.
11:59 - If you look at all the way back to September,
12:05 when Sunderland played Southampton in the reverse fixture back at the Stadium of Light,
12:09 they blew them away 5-0.
12:11 And obviously the teams have gone in very different directions then,
12:14 but that showed the potential that Sunderland had.
12:17 And that they were dynamic, they were full of energy.
12:20 They looked a threat every time they went forward.
12:22 And that was the day after the end of the summer transfer window.
12:25 So Sunderland just brought in Roos in there, just brought in Berstow.
12:29 And you look to that squad and thought,
12:31 if you can put a few strikers at the top end of the pitch, or just one striker,
12:35 just think how good this team could get even better.
12:37 And since then, obviously the strikers have struggled, the team has clearly regressed.
12:42 And the decision to sack Tony Mowbray has derailed the season quite significantly.
12:48 And it does feel like a different season since that game against Southampton at the Stadium of Light.
12:53 But it did show what Sunderland could do when their best players are available,
12:59 when they're up and firing.
13:01 But we always said it at the start of the season, I think,
13:03 as good as the starting XI looks, there was a few key positions where
13:08 if Sunderland did pick up injuries there, you thought they could be in trouble.
13:11 I think namely probably Ballard and Dan Neal were the two players,
13:15 if one of them got injured or was unavailable,
13:18 the drop-off to the next player was quite significant.
13:20 And Jack Clark's the other one, which obviously now Sunderland are dealing without him,
13:24 a player that scored 15 goals this season.
13:26 You take him out of the side and it looks kind of a lot tougher for Sunderland to score goals.
13:31 It does feel like the chickens have all come home to roost at the same time in that regard, Joe.
13:35 The injuries, we must point out, really, really aren't helping matters.
13:39 Yeah, it's been a really tough hand for Mike Dodds.
13:41 And that's not to say that he's kind of immune from criticism.
13:44 I thought again, where he striked a selection on Saturday was questionable.
13:48 And that was kind of showed by the fact that he made two changes before the 60-minute mark.
13:52 But you look at kind of what he's having to deal with and what he's coming up against.
13:56 He's lost his top scorer in Jack Clark.
13:58 He's had Dan Ballard has been suspended.
14:00 Luke O'Neill has been suspended.
14:02 Patrick Roberts is another key attacking player that's been missing.
14:06 The strikers obviously aren't firing at the minute.
14:08 And kind of any head coach, I think, would struggle with that.
14:10 And you look at the sides that Sunderland have come up against, as we mentioned before,
14:14 kind of the players that were coming off Southampton's bench and Leicester's bench.
14:18 The fixes have been really difficult for him.
14:20 So although it is six defeats in a row, four defeats in a row for Mike Dodds,
14:25 he's kind of had very limited resources to deal with.
14:29 And it has been very difficult for him in the last few weeks.
14:31 God knows how many conversations we're going to have about strikers.
14:35 God knows how many conversations we've had about strikers in the past sort of 18 months.
14:39 It's massively frustrating for everybody involved.
14:41 It's just clearly quite a glaring issue, isn't it?
14:43 I mean, Sunderland brought in four strikers in the suburb.
14:47 Obviously, Maienda's gone out on loan to Hibernian.
14:49 But I think out of the four of them combined, they've scored, what, three goals?
14:52 Two for Roos in and one for Berstow.
14:55 And the Berstow one, to be fair, I asked Mike Dodds about Berstow in the press conference
15:00 before the game and asked kind of, Berstow was the one striker that he hadn't selected
15:04 in the games that Dodds had kind of taken charge of.
15:06 So that's why I asked him about it and was kind of saying, he's only on loan.
15:09 So are we likely to see him? How much are we likely to see him between now and the end of the season?
15:14 And Dodds, as you would expect, kind of defended the player and said that he's got a good attitude.
15:18 And as you would expect, I didn't really expect Berstow to start the game at Southampton, which he did.
15:23 And again, he struggled. And for me, and I think for a lot of fans, I think Berstow and Hamir in particular
15:28 have not looked up to championship level this season.
15:31 And that's not to say that they won't be ready for the championship in the future.
15:34 They're both still only 20 years old, so they have got time to kind of turn into players that can make an impact
15:41 at this level. But so far this season, they clearly haven't.
15:44 And with Berstow, obviously he's only on loan from Chelsea.
15:47 With Hamir, Sunderland have invested money in him and will hope that he can develop into a player
15:51 that can make an impact. Now, Roosin seems to be the one who's kind of made more of an impact.
15:56 But I think we've said it before that he's probably more of a wide forward than a centre forward.
16:01 And he's had to play through the middle more often this season because you've had Jack Clark playing so well
16:07 on the left-hand side. You've had Roberts or Barr on the other side that have been selected ahead of him.
16:11 You've now got Mundels come in as well. You can play wide. So Roosin's had to play through the middle.
16:16 I'm surprised that he's not got more of a run of games than he has because I think he can be a handful
16:22 with his energy and his work. I think we've seen kind of him make more of an impact than the others.
16:27 It has been surprising that the last couple of games that he's dropped out the side and he came off the bench
16:32 against Southampton. I think Sunderland looked brighter with him and Oshiesh was the other one that came on.
16:37 I think he kind of made Sunderland just tick a little bit more. It was surprising to see that he didn't get the start
16:42 after he came on against Leicester and made an impact as well.
16:45 So, yeah, it's very difficult, isn't it, with the strikers at the minute because clearly they're not proven
16:51 at Championship level. And you just look at what Kiefer Moore's doing at Ipswich.
16:55 He's already got six goals since moving there in January. And the one that he scores,
17:00 I know Ipswich lost the game against Cardiff, but the one where he kind of got the ball just inside the box
17:05 and the first time put the ball in the bottom corner to open the score.
17:09 - Well, I mean, Kiefer Moore's completely made a mockery out of all of us, really, Kiefer Moore,
17:14 because I was very much of the opinion at the Money Court that he wouldn't be worth it for the age that he was.
17:20 I think I was trying to cope with the fact that Sunderland hadn't signed a striker.
17:25 He's made a mockery of that completely, Kiefer Moore, by his goal scoring record since just on Rooson, though, Joe.
17:31 It's a shame, actually, post-Jack Clarke's injury, that Rooson just wasn't given an extended run in the team
17:37 as a wide forward or a left winger, which is clearly where he's more comfortable.
17:40 He's been in and out. I actually really feel for him, to be honest, because I don't know his family's situation now,
17:45 but they were back in Ukraine. I'm not sure whether that's been resolved or not.
17:48 He doesn't speak too much English, which is probably a little bit of an issue as well.
17:53 But out of Sunderland's attacking players, I do think he looks to be one of the better ones.
17:58 QBR on Saturday, it's a big game, that, at the Stadium of Leinster.
18:02 - Yeah, they lost against Middlesbrough on Saturday, but before that, though, they were on a good run.
18:06 - So QBR at the moment are 20th, so they've won three of the last five a draw,
18:11 and that loss that you mentioned to Middlesbrough, as you say, 39 points, 20th position.
18:18 As mentioned, it's one of those where you really don't want to lose this game at home in front of your fans.
18:23 You don't want to go seven on the bounce. As I say, it was the first time since 2006 that Sunderland have lost six.
18:29 I'm not sure when the last time they lost seven was, but yeah, it'll have been a long, long time.
18:35 - Really, if QBR do win against Sunderland, it just pulls Sunderland ever, ever so closer.
18:42 That gap starts to close ever a little bit more again, and yeah, it just wouldn't be ideal, would it, Joe?
18:48 - Yeah, I think as we said last week, I think Sunderland have too many points to be kind of dragged into relegation.
18:55 I say that, you can never say never, but I think there's too many teams behind them,
19:00 and I think Sunderland will be okay, but it's just the kind of mood that has kind of come over the club in the last few weeks.
19:07 As we've said, the fixtures in recent weeks have been very tough, having Norwich, Leicester, Southampton.
19:12 You've got two teams there that could get automatic promotion, then another team in Norwich that are fighting for the playoffs.
19:17 So it's been very tough. I think fans will look at the table and think QBR down in 20th at home.
19:24 Sunderland, that's again, they should be winning.
19:27 Although, as you mentioned, QBR have been in good form and have picked up under Marti Cifuentes,
19:32 but it's going to be really important that Sunderland get the first goal.
19:35 I think there was even boos in the away end at Southampton after a half time,
19:40 which you could hear quite clearly from the press box.
19:43 It was a long journey to go to Southampton, and the first half just wasn't a good enough performance from Sunderland,
19:48 as we mentioned before. It could have been more than 2-0 at half time.
19:53 So it's going to be really important that Sunderland show against QBR in front of their home fans
19:58 that they're still fighting to get points and results.
20:03 And as you mentioned, I don't think it's the effort levels, but it's just been very difficult for the young side.
20:08 The confidence is very low right now.
20:10 But the problems continue for Mike Dodds, though, Joe, because 09 is suspended, obviously picked up the two-match ban.
20:16 Dan Ballard went off with the injury.
20:18 Obviously, we'll hopefully get a bit more clarity on where that is at midweek with the press conference.
20:23 But that certainly is not ideal for a game you need to win.
20:26 Yeah, it could be a very makeshift back four, which is what it was at the end of the Southampton game,
20:31 which was Stiles at left back, Yelder and Seals at centre back and Hume at right back.
20:36 And if Ballard's unavailable, which it didn't sound good, I think he'd done something to his hamstring,
20:42 and Dodds said he didn't want to put too much on it.
20:45 He didn't want to go one way or the other, but said he was strapped up, so it didn't sound great.
20:49 And you've lost your two leaders in the back line in Ballard and 09.
20:54 It's going to be very difficult for those players.
20:57 Yelder has said that he prefers to play centre back, but he's only just joined the club recently.
21:02 He's only 20 years old.
21:03 You've got Stiles coming in at left back, who hadn't played a lot of football before he came to Sunderland
21:07 because he had this appendicitis and this surgery.
21:11 So, yeah, it's going to be very difficult, and they'll have to work on that on the training pitch in the week leading up to the game.
21:17 Thankfully, they have got the full week leading up to that game,
21:20 but if they don't get a result against QPR, going into the international break could be a very long international break for everyone, isn't it?
21:27 - No, absolutely. And do you think, Joe, there could be a few other changes?
21:31 Obviously, it could be a different looking back four to the one that started the game against Southampton,
21:37 but I'm thinking Ekwemight come in.
21:39 Adil Ashish might start as well. He might give a start to Roosan, and I keep saying it on this podcast,
21:43 but at some point, they'll have to play Timothy Pembele as well.
21:46 - I think Ek will come back in midfield.
21:50 Dodgers obviously felt they needed to change that on Saturday.
21:54 I think we will see Roosan. I think we will see Ashish.
21:56 I think Ashish has now made an impact. Two times he's come off the bench now.
22:01 Sunderland have looked better going forward, and he's someone that looks to play those forward passes
22:06 and has got the team up the pitch and has made them look like more of an attacking threat.
22:11 And as I mentioned before, Roosan, although sometimes it may not work out for him,
22:15 he's kind of busy, puts pressure on people. He makes runs in behind the opposition defence.
22:22 So I think those two have a good chance of coming back in. Ek will, as you said,
22:26 we'll see what the situation is with Ballard.
22:28 Another option for Pembele to come in, who I've seen a few times for the 21s
22:32 and thought he looks kind of good going forward, maybe not been tested as much defensively.
22:37 Perhaps try Hulme could move over to left back or as a centre back.
22:42 Could they go to a back three and Hulme move in as the right sided centre back?
22:46 We saw a few times last season, then Pembele comes in as a wing back, potentially.
22:51 Dodds said at the start of his tenure that he's not afraid to make bold decisions,
22:57 although the back three was not a success at all against Swansea, was it?
23:01 A few weeks back where Sunderland looked all over the place.
23:03 No one really knew who was picking up who and Sunderland had to change that at half time
23:08 and go back to a back four. So it'll be interesting if Dodds went for that again.
23:12 But as we said, he said he's not afraid to make bold decisions and will make the decision
23:16 that he feels is right for the team. But yeah, I'd like to see Pembele given a shot
23:21 between now and the end of the season just to see what he's about,
23:23 because Sunderland obviously brought him in from PSG in the summer.
23:26 He's had that injury, but he's available now.
23:28 So I'm sure fans will want to see what he's all about and kind of get a glimpse of him.
23:33 [music]