Are Celtics and Bucks the Beasts of the East? w/ Dalton Sell | Celtics Lab - video Dailymotion

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The Boston Celtics pushed in a fair amount of their chips to land former Milwaukee Bucks All-Star guard Jrue Holiday in the wake of the Bucks trading away the UCLA alum to land ex-Portland Trail Blazers star guard Damian Lillard.  The twin trades set up the Bucks and Celtics to potentially collide yet again as each ups the ante in pursuit of their next title -- what did these trades do to set the stage for an epic Eastern Conference postseason showdown? What do Celtics fans need to know about Holiday and how he could fit in Boston? Do the Celtics and Bucks need to make more moves in anticipation of such a matchup? And how do we expect each team to do in the regular season and playoffs?  With so many questions to answer about these two teams, the hosts of the CLNS Media "Celtics Lab" podcast linked up with Behind The Bucks Pass' Dalton Sell to talk all things Jrue and Dame between the Bucks and Celtics organizations.  Join us for our second emergency pod of the week after a seismic trade has reset our expectations of the Celtics, the Bucks, and the East.  This episode of the Celtics Lab Podcast is brought to you by FanDuel Sportsbook, the exclusive wagering partner of the CLNS Media Network. NEW customers can bet $5  and get $200 in BONUS BETS – GUARANTEED. Now is the best time to join FanDuel! The app is easy to use and you can be on everything from spreads to player props and more! So, visit FanDuel.com/BOSTON and kick off the NFL season with an offer you won’t wanna miss.  21+ and present in MA. Hope is here. First online real money wager only. $10 first deposit required. Bonus issued as non-withdrawable bonus bets that expire 7 days after receipt. Restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook.fanduel.com. GamblingHelpLineMa.org or call (800)-327-5050 for 24/7 support. Play it smart from the start! GameSenseMA.com or call 1-800-GAM-1234.  If a comprehensive solution is what you need from your supplement routine, then try AG1 and get a FREE 1-year supply of Vitamin D AND 5 free AG1 Travel Packs with your first purchase. Go to drinkAG1.com/GARDEN  ODDS-R! Ever wished you could navigate the betting field with the confidence of a pro? Enter OddsR. They're not a sportsbook, but they're the sports betting advisor you've always needed. It's like having a playbook for smarter bets right in your pocket. I've been absolutely loving the experience, and I think you will too. Especially since Pats Interference listeners get a 30-day free trial! Elevate your game day and join the smart betting revolution! Go get it at https://oddsr.com/celtics  Visit https://factormeals.com/NEWSFEED50 to get 50% off your first box! Factor is America’s #1 Ready-To-Eat Meal Kit, can help you fuel up fast with ready-to-eat meals delivered straight to your door.

Transcript

00:00 I do think they're going to try to feature Bo Champ a little bit.

00:02 And I'm curious, you know, because if he can be good, I've said for a few months now,

00:06 he's kind of the X factor for this, this whole thing, because of that ability to

00:12 be the big wing defender, the six foot six guy, who the Bucks really haven't had since Tucker,

00:19 one of my big things again against Boston, the Bucks were throwing six, three, six, four and six,

00:24 five guys at Tatum and Brown, and they would just kill them. So that was a big thing they kind of

00:30 addressed. Celtics lab is brought to you by FanDuel, the exclusive wagering partner of the CLNS Media

00:38 Network. Alrighty, welcome to the Celtics Lab podcast brought to you by FanDuel, the exclusive

00:42 wagering partner of the CLNS Media Network. And AG1, the daily foundational nutrition supplement

00:47 that supports whole body health. It's Sunday evening. We've got a Drew Holiday trade to talk

00:53 about. I'm Cam Tufts, I'm with Alex Goldberg, I'm with Dr. Justin Glynn. And to get to know the

00:58 newest member of the Boston Celtics, we're going to welcome in our old friend Dalton Zell of

01:03 Behind the Bucks Pass and Hoops Havoc. Dalton, what is up? Not much, just like you guys.

01:09 It's been a crazy week for all of us. I guess not much as a bit of an understatement, but

01:17 you know, for us for a few days, it was like, what just happened? Like even seeing

01:22 Dame at the rally, I couldn't go because I've been moving. But even just seeing him there,

01:28 it's just like, is this real? Like, it's so weird. Like I, I'm still kind of processing it. Every

01:35 once in a while, I'll see a picture of him in a jersey or him shooting at the practice facility.

01:40 And it's just like, this is weird. This is, this is weird because we'll get into it later. But this

01:46 kind of came out of nowhere, this whole thing just so unexpected. And even with the holiday trade,

01:52 I kind of had a, I had a feeling that Boston would go pretty hard after him, but I'm like,

01:56 I don't think there'll be the top bidder. I think, I thought it was going to be Miami,

02:02 to be honest with you, because they had missed out on Dame, but seeing Boston, it's just like

02:07 crazy, crazy for all of us. So given both of our teams that we cover have not been so lucky against

02:16 Miami Heat in recent years, it's exceptionally nice the way that this all unfolded, where

02:22 not only did the Heat get screwed once, they got screwed twice by Portland.

02:27 I really want to do my due diligence and shout out my man, Joe Cronin, for that exact point. Joe

02:36 Cronin, I'm proud of you. You didn't bow to the pressure. You didn't bow to the crooked media,

02:43 and you didn't bow to the deep state all coming at you, trying to force you to take a bullshit

02:50 sandwich with this terrible Miami Heat offer that literally everybody said sucked,

02:56 nobody thought was serious, and Pat Riley did not get away with it again. Thank you, Joe Cronin.

03:03 You're a good man, and you've done a good service to the rest of the league, and your Portland

03:07 Trailblazers are better for it. You did the right thing. Good shit, Joe Cronin. Good job.

03:12 Good job by you. All right. I guess we're not getting monetized on YouTube this episode.

03:16 This is not the point of the episode, but just because I'm thinking about it. The final haul

03:21 for James Lillard is Aiton, Robert Williams, the other young center, I don't remember the name of,

03:30 three first round picks and two swaps. Does that sound right?

03:33 Yeah, that's pretty good. That's way better than what Miami-

03:36 And Malcolm Brogdon, yeah.

03:38 Yeah. Oh, and whatever Brogdon fetches.

03:39 And they could flip him. I think they're going to flip him and get even more.

03:42 That's a nice haul. I think that's a pretty nice haul for Portland, all things considered.

03:47 A whole lot better than Tyler Hero, two first round picks, Nikoli Jovic, et cetera, et cetera.

03:55 So I would like to humbly request that we never see any crying Miami Heat fans online again

04:03 talking about how Joe Cronin didn't even take a good offer or did Dame Dirty. He did neither

04:08 of those things. He waited, he was patient, he did the best job he possibly could in that

04:12 situation. And now his team is actually better for it. Good job, Joe Cronin.

04:16 Wow, who knew that's how we're going to start this podcast. Shout out to Joe Cronin. All right,

04:21 Dalton, you cover the books and you're here to talk to us about Drew Holliday. So anyone who's

04:27 listening, I'm sure knows what has happened, but Boston just traded for, this is now Sunday evening,

04:33 but Sunday morning, traded for Drew Holliday, former all-star, and out went Malcolm Brokken,

04:38 out went Robert Williams III, out went a 2024 Golden State Warriors first round pick that

04:43 Boston had, and Boston's unprotected 2029 first round pick. Now, Dalton, we were talking about

04:50 this off air, so that's where I'm going to start is tell us about Drew Holliday as in the most

04:55 recent version of Drew Holliday, because we all know his resume, but where is he at now in his

05:00 career? What is he bringing to Boston? Yeah, so he's obviously still a really good player. I mean,

05:05 he's coming off a year where he was an all-star and I believe it was first team all defense. So

05:10 he's obviously still one of the best two-way players there is on top of being one of the best

05:15 locker room guys, overall guys, multi-time teammate of the year award, I want to say.

05:21 And on the court though, great defender, obviously, he's known for that throughout his career,

05:27 usually picking up the toughest assignments for the Bucs on offense, which we kind of had

05:32 talked about off air a little bit, pretty good in the regular season, things hit or miss in the

05:38 playoffs a little bit, but in the grand scheme of things, I think it's a great pickup for Boston.

05:43 I think that's a great guy you kind of want to bring in there. I do have questions about

05:50 not exactly the fit, because he'll fit in there nicely, but one of my big gripes in Milwaukee

05:55 was that they wanted him to play point guard, but he's not a natural point guard. And I feel like

06:01 they're going to do that in Boston as well with probably Holiday and White in the backcourt.

06:06 So I'm kind of curious to see, because he can do it, but it's not his natural thing.

06:12 So for most of the off season, when I anticipated that Holiday would be coming back,

06:16 one of my big things was, I want you to bring in a legit point guard or another ball handler,

06:22 somebody who can let Holiday play the two, because I really think that's the best,

06:26 the way to get the best out of him. You look at his numbers in New Orleans when

06:30 Lonzo was there in healthy, he was playing, those were some of his best numbers of his career. So

06:36 I'm curious to see, I think it'll, I think the fit in Boston is still good, even if he is that

06:41 point guard, because a lot of those other guys can handle the ball and act as point guards.

06:46 But I'm curious, it's a good move. It's a good pickup, gave up a lot for him, but you know,

06:52 you look at when the Bucks traded for Drew Holiday, they gave up a lot for him. You have to

06:56 give up a lot in today's NBA to get good players. So I think it's good for Boston.

07:01 And to that end, you know, I, cause that was one of my concerns about Drew Holiday as well,

07:06 is that in particular, he he's not a pure point guard and asking him to be a pure point guard

07:13 is not the best idea, given that he's not really a pull up shooter. But Derek White was announced

07:20 as the starting point guard for this team. Within weeks of Marcus Smart being traded,

07:26 that guy is a proven playoff winner. He knows exactly what he contributes to a team. And I

07:33 think in a bench role in particular, Horford is really going to thrive this year. You look at the

07:39 rest of the bench, this trade to me is at least partially a huge endorsement of Peyton Pritchard.

07:46 Like that, that guy is going to be playing real meaningful minutes as things are currently

07:52 structured. The Celtics have a platoon of bench wings. We'll see what happens there. I think out

07:58 of those four guys, I'm optimistic that at least one of them can be a playoff rotation player.

08:03 But the big man situation, particularly given Porzingis's history of injuries and Al Horford's

08:10 age, is something that is a real concern that Boston is going to have to address and not really.

08:17 I know that their capability is limited, but they're going to have to do so in more than just

08:22 like a buyout guy, bandaid replacement way. Like they need a real guy to come in and actually be

08:28 there. I'm sure that I agree with that, Alex. I've been thinking about that today. So

08:36 I disagree for two reasons. First of all, I think probably Horford is

08:39 not as proven and steady. I think I'm really worried about the post-season he had. And I

08:44 actually wonder if that's the Horford that we're going to see next season is he's just in a

08:49 different part of his career. That said, whether it's Banson and Stevens, whether it's Bresset,

08:55 whether it's all of these guys, like if Boston staggers, they're four stars, there's gonna be

09:01 a lot of pressure taken off of the bench players to be traditional bench players.

09:04 Cause they're always going to be playing with all-star talent. So actually I think there's a

09:09 world where Boston is able to like create real rotation players out of what already exists on

09:16 the bench such that they have the ammo to go out and make a trade. And Dalton, I want to ask you

09:21 about this in a way that I don't think the Bucks have, but I actually feel like Boston's current

09:28 reserve players have a chance to be pretty effective because they're always going to be

09:31 able to play with at least two all-stars at any given time. That's how they have an unbelievable

09:35 ability to not just stagger their two stars, stagger their four stars. So let's go back to-

09:41 - If they're available.

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09:59 loving the experience and I think you will too, especially since Celtics all-access listeners get

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10:15 - If they're available, but I really only have that concern with the Porzingis.

10:21 - I don't. I have concerns up and down the roster. I mean, maybe a little bit less in the backcourt

10:29 with Brogdon not on the team, but I mean, like if you look at Drew's availability throughout his

10:35 career, he averages about 60 games a season and that is not a market improvement over what Brogdon

10:42 was bringing to the table to begin with. Based on some of the things that we have heard recently,

10:47 I think there was a Jared Weiss piece out today. There were also some additional concerns besides

10:51 his elbow about Brogdon's long-term future that were playing part of the role behind some of the

10:58 shall we say discomfort between he and the Celtics front office this offseason besides

11:04 all the other things that went on obviously. And between that, I mean, Rob's not on the roster

11:09 anymore, but you still have Porzingis to deal with. Like you said, Al is a situation. O'Shea

11:13 Brissett was dealing with a knee thing that kept him out of the World Cup. There's lots of different

11:19 injury issues going on with this team. And I think there's a good chance that either we can talk

11:25 about this a little bit more later, but some of the, some of the guys that they have on training

11:28 camp deals, Nemus Keta, one in Gabriel, they might be able to eat enough minutes during the regular

11:33 season for the, for the, a big man issue. But if Drew's out if someone in the back court is injured

11:41 for any considerable length of time, then it's going to put more pressure on Drew to perform for

11:47 the Celtics during the regular season. So I kind of do think they, they need to make sure that they

11:52 at least are comfortable with their, their backcourt rotation. And I think there's a chance

11:59 that they can come away with a big, that can eat enough regular season minutes, but then what

12:03 happens if they get hurt? Porzingis turns an ankle, has plantar fasciitis in the post season,

12:09 there is no depth. You know, you have to find something a little bit stronger. And I'm open

12:13 to the idea of someone, you know, being like, not, you know, scrap heap is not the right word

12:17 that I'm looking for. It's kind of insulting, but like somebody who is not on a team right now,

12:22 it's not going to be so great. So that means probably they're gonna have to look for a trade,

12:26 you know, Brian, Rob, I think mentioned that they're not done making moves. Presumably this

12:31 is the area they'd be making moves, but I'm not very confident. This is going to be the team that

12:36 we see come April, but there's a long time between now and then. Yeah, I think I agree with that. I,

12:42 I just don't think it's like, Oh no, that the, how are they going to put together 48 minutes of

12:48 rotation? All right. I feel like we just said so much stuff. So let's, let's reel it in a little

12:53 bit. Dalton, your bucks look pretty different. Alex, Justin and Cameron, your Celtics look

13:00 pretty different with a little more specificity. Dalton, what's good with the bucks. What is your

13:06 expectation for their season? What is your expectation for how they match up with the

13:10 Celtics? And then Dr Quinn and Alex, I'll have you guys team up to answer that same question.

13:15 What's going on with the Celtics? What are your expectations for them? And how do they match up

13:19 specifically with the bucks? So Dalton, Dame Willard is in cream city. Giannis still in cream

13:26 city. How are you feeling? I feel great. First of all, I think it's, I think it's a great move.

13:32 You know, Giannis of course, I've been putting the pressure on the front office about, you know,

13:37 wanting to make sure everybody was on the same page, which of course they are, you know,

13:41 they're not going to rebuild when Giannis is there, of course, but still, Giannis knows how

13:46 to put pressure on them. And he did, I am, I'm still partially not really sure what to expect

13:51 from the bucks. Obviously I think they're going to be a top tier contender, but there are a lot

13:56 of new variables. Like obviously people are going to look and be like, oh yeah, they got Dame.

14:00 That's pretty huge. That is, but they also have a new coach who's never been a coach before. That's

14:06 one of the big things I kind of have circled, you know, how can, how is Adrian Griffin gonna

14:11 get things going? You know, is he going to connect with the players? Cause that's it.

14:17 That's a huge thing. You know, taking on a championship contender with arguably the

14:20 best player in the world for your first head coaching job, you know, so I wonder what he's

14:25 going to do. The roster's really different. Even outside of just losing holiday, you lost Alan,

14:32 you lost Ingles, you lost Javon Carter, you lost Wes Wesley Matthews, who were all big pieces, but

14:38 I'm not so mad about that because the front office kind of said, Hey, we got to get younger.

14:44 We got to get more athletic. So they did, they brought in Balik Beasley, who I really like

14:49 most threes off the bench last season. I think he could really help, but I really liked what they

14:54 did in the draft by bringing in two young wings. And then I think Marjahn Bochamp is going to see

15:01 a leap. So those are three players. I also have circled because I have question marks. Can they

15:06 play? Can they give you defense? Because after signing campaign today, who is another new

15:11 addition that I'm curious to see how he fits in the biggest question mark is wing defense.

15:16 You know, you play a team like Boston, that was the Achilles heel back in 2022. It was not having

15:22 a good enough wing defender and they really haven't been able to since PJ Tucker left. So

15:28 it looks like this year they're going to bank on Jay Crowder. I'm higher on Crowder more than most

15:33 people. I think he can bounce back. I think last year was kind of an outlier because he sat out

15:38 for most of the year and then got hurt in Milwaukee. So I think he can be better, but I don't

15:43 think he's going to be like on the level of 2021 PJ Tucker, where he can be your starter throughout

15:49 a playoff run and play at that high of a level. So I think they're really going to try to get

15:54 something out of Bo Champ, Livingston or Jackson. A lot to ask from young guys, especially on a

16:01 top contender like that, but I certainly think they're going to try to get Bo Champ involved.

16:06 A lot of people want him to be the starter. I don't think he's going to get that right away,

16:10 but I have no idea who's going to be the shooting guard, but I do think they're going to try to

16:15 feature Bo Champ a little bit. And I'm curious, you know, because if he can be good, I've said

16:20 for a few months now, he's kind of the X factor for this, this whole thing, because of that ability

16:26 to be the big wing defender, the six foot six guy who the Bucks really haven't had since Tucker.

16:33 One of my big things again against Boston, the Bucks were throwing six, three, six, four, and

16:38 six, five guys at Tatum and Brown, and they would just kill them. So that was a big thing they kind

16:45 of addressed. So I like it. I like the changes they made aside from Lillard. It might not seem

16:51 significant, but they, they did a nice retooling. They got a lot of flack for re-signing Yanis's

16:56 brother and signing Robin Lopez, you know, of course, all that talk went out the window with

17:03 Dame, but there are other moves. I really like, I like the Beasley signing. I like the young wings

17:08 being drafted. I like campaign. I like it. I like what they've done. I'm curious to see how it all

17:14 fits together though, because for the first time in a long time, Mike Bootholzer isn't there. I

17:19 want to see what schemes are used, what Griffin does on offense, what kind of lineups he likes

17:25 to use. So I'm intrigued. That's kind of the best way I can describe it heading into the season.

17:32 It's not like other seasons where I'm like, I know what Mike Bootholzer is going to do. I know

17:36 he's going to play the starters. Not a lot of minutes play a lot of the wrong guys sometimes,

17:41 to be quite honest with you. I don't know what Griffin's going to do. So I'm excited. I'm excited

17:46 and intrigued. That's best way I can put it. Okay. Let's pause the action and talk about our

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18:23 also a lot of movement. Smart has gone, Grant has gone, Time Lord has gone, Galanari has gone.

18:30 This team looks really different and they certainly have title aspirations. Dalton was

18:35 incredibly upbeat about this change. How are you feeling about the Boston Celtics? Dr. Quinn,

18:41 I'll go to you first. They're going to need some luck and you always need some luck. But

18:46 when you have a bunch of players who are concentrating your cap space and have injury

18:55 histories, performance issues in the playoffs, as you mentioned earlier, there are things that can

19:01 go wrong. I'm going to look on the bright side until I have a reason not to, but we would be

19:07 not doing our job if we did not talk about the fact that with this incredibly higher ceiling,

19:13 I think, I think they definitely raised their ceiling considerably with this move. They also

19:17 raised their floor pretty considerably too, depending on how things pan out. There's lots

19:23 of reason for optimism seeing as the most important players are fairly sturdy and young,

19:27 but they're not getting younger. And the new cap structure means that probably they have one,

19:34 maybe two cracks at this before they have to do even bigger moves. And they've retained a decent

19:40 amount of assets in terms of draft capital and players to do it with. But the path to landing

19:48 the plane on championship airstrip has gotten much, much more fraught. I mean, stick with the

19:55 present or go long-term. So I think after this past season, like a lot of people could sense

20:04 that change was coming for the Celtics. Brad Stevens has shown that he is extremely aggressive

20:10 in the pursuit of winning a title. That's been true throughout his entire tenure. I think that

20:16 being said, this has been easily the most aggressive off season he's had, fundamentally

20:21 shaking up the concept of the team, trading away kind of key role players to try and go for what I

20:27 think in Holiday and Porzingis are two very clear attempts. Like we are trying to win the title

20:34 this year. And I think that there's a couple of reasons for that. Obviously, they want to win the

20:41 title and they think they can't do it, but perhaps more relevant is that Jason Tatum's extension is

20:46 looming. And I think Brad Stevens is conscious of that and wants to show Jason Tatum, hey,

20:52 we are really committed to trying to make this thing work and doing whatever it takes to build

20:56 you the best roster possible. That being said, I think this is a move where I've been really torn

21:04 on this move because I did like the identity that the Celtics were heading into this year with

21:10 before they traded for Holiday. And that identity has changed with that trade to a degree.

21:16 The top five of this team is staggeringly loaded. And to me, I feel like they might have the best

21:25 starting lineup in the league on their hands when opening night rolls around. The depth is a concern.

21:30 There are some areas where like Drew Holiday's shooting and the late game offense, I still have

21:36 questions about. But from an on-paper starting five, to me, I can't think of a starting five that

21:45 has more talent on both ends of the ball. Maybe the Denver Nuggets, but that would be about it.

21:52 As far as how they match up with the rest of the Eastern Conference, look, given the way that the

21:58 conference has shaken out somewhat disastrously for Miami and Philly, the kind of two teams that

22:03 I think would be most likely to challenge Milwaukee or Boston, it's pretty clear now that

22:09 barring catastrophic injuries, the Bucs and Celtics are the top two teams in the Eastern Conference.

22:14 I don't think there's really any reasonable expectation otherwise, again, barring like

22:20 a significant injury, which could happen for both of these teams. As far as how they match up with

22:26 each other, I'm going to be really interested to see that because, and I want to give a shout out

22:31 to the guys at Unoball who were talking about this as I was driving from Boston to New York just now.

22:38 They mentioned that in previous iterations of Bucs-Celtics, some of those games have frankly

22:45 been completely unwatchable. Just like brutal rock fight slogs where everybody was upset and

22:54 nobody was having fun. And some of those series, I think for, and I think I speak for everyone on

23:01 this pod, some of those series took years off of my life. These teams play each other super hard

23:07 every time that they play and the results have often been gross. This time around, it's going

23:14 to be a little different. Both of these teams I think have gotten a lot more dynamic offensively.

23:19 Porzingis as a kind of hub, Drew Holliday as a playmaker, obviously the Damian Lillard-Yanis

23:26 pick and roll is to me probably the single most dangerous play in basketball. At least looking at

23:33 kind of where the league is shaking out. So that matchup is going to look really different,

23:38 but I think it will still be a real battle for both of these teams. Like they both enter as I

23:44 think the clear top two in the East and a potential playoff series between these two

23:51 rosters if they're fully healthy could be like one of the great playoff series ever. I really think

23:58 that. As to how they stack up with the rest of the league, I think we have to see on the court

24:04 to really know that. My gut instinct is that they're among the handful of teams that can win

24:10 the title. I would still lean that. I think Denver has earned the right to be considered the best

24:15 team heading into this year, but the league does feel pretty wide open and I think both the Celtics

24:21 and the Bucs have a really great shot, like as good as they've had in their particular eras.

24:26 I have a quick question for everybody. Regarding the Phoenix Suns, what is going on with,

24:34 why? I don't understand. Do any of you see what they're doing and think it's good?

24:40 I think the only logical explanation for why they made that trade is that those guys

24:44 really don't like DeAndre Hayden. That's the only thing I could come up with.

24:49 Yeah. No guys, it's a great trade. They took

24:51 Grayson Allen from Milwaukee, helped Milwaukee get Dame. I thought it was great.

24:56 Yeah, yeah. I sincerely think it was a great trade.

24:59 Now is that? I disagree.

25:02 I have a bunch of hot takes that I'm going to fire off.

25:04 Okay. Please, please. Okay. No one on that team is taller than six nine who plays anything close

25:08 to the center position. So I'm curious. I mean, we saw the Miami Heat and the NBA

25:14 Finals. Let Jimmy Butler play center for long stretches.

25:17 You know, bam out of bio. I don't know. I quietly listen to your guys.

25:20 I feel better than you said. What?

25:23 Everyone put the mute button on.

25:24 Oh, we be tight.

25:24 Mr. T is talking. First of all, because he asked, Phoenix saved a ton of money

25:30 trading Hayden for Nurgage. They're like in the triple tax. It saves so much money for them,

25:35 right? Sorry. They actually did.

25:37 They added money.

25:39 How?

25:42 I don't because of the Grayson Allen contract and because of everything else that came with it,

25:47 they are actually a more expensive team now than they were with the Andre Hayden.

25:51 That's flabbergasting. Not a great way for me to start my hot take hour, but I will still maintain.

25:59 I think Grayson Allen actually built. You can speak to this is probably a useful role player

26:04 for a team highly leveraged. Maybe not in the postseason, but.

26:09 Yeah, I think he's a nice role player. I think he's some of the stuff that I was seeing on

26:14 Twitter after he got traded there. A lot of people saying like,

26:17 what do you mean? Oh, he's exactly what the sons need. He's an elite defender,

26:22 a top five shooter. And I'm just like, calm, calm down a little bit. Like, as you guys know,

26:27 in 2022, the Jays were smiling as soon as they saw Grayson Allen matched up with them in the,

26:33 in the playoff. So I don't know about elite defender. I don't know about great defender.

26:38 Okay. Defender. Yeah. Is he a good shooter? Yeah. Not really in the playoffs. I'm still

26:44 kind of haunted by that Boston series, what he did in there with this shooting. But

26:49 I think he's, I think he's a good role player. I'd like to see what he does in

26:53 Phoenix alongside guys like Booker and KD and Beal. Cause I think he's kind of just going to be

27:01 like a spot up shooter and they have a lot of those. It feels like on the roster. So I'm curious

27:07 to see what he, how he kind of fits in there. I wonder, but yeah, not an elite defender by

27:12 any stretch, but a useful role player. I will, I will give him that. The sons are going to

27:17 definitely break the record for most made threes in the game. Okay. Anyways, let me do my Celtics

27:22 outtakes. Alex, this Boston Celtics categorically have the best starting lineup in the NBA.

27:27 Apropos of injury, there is not a team in the league that can even come close to sniffing that

27:34 Dr. Quinn. There's no way that you can afford that starting lineup for more than a season

27:39 because next year, even if Drew ops out and restructures this contract, they will be on

27:45 the hook for something like 160 or 170 million dollars just for a white Porzingis, Holliday,

27:54 Brown and Tatum to say nothing of Tatum's extension. If they win, they might be ballsy.

28:00 If they don't win. Yeah. I see some additional major changes coming. I don't disagree.

28:05 Yeah. I think that it's a hundred percent of all in move, not because wick is cheap

28:13 or I'm counting as pennies. It's just like, that's the structure of the new CBA.

28:16 So I think two things can be true because I was against this trade. I still,

28:20 I think in theory, I'm against the straight. I think this is the best starting five in basketball.

28:25 I don't really think there's much of an argument against that. And I also think that

28:30 it's, it's really all or nothing because I don't see a way that they can like legally afford this

28:38 team for more than 18 months. So two things can be true at once that this is phenomenally

28:45 attractive on paper and barring health, just like a flabbergasting, like good team.

28:52 You like that for an advert, Dr. Quinn. And at the same time,

28:59 I don't know how sustainable it is because like, how could it be?

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30:32 Okay. Back to the podcast. All right. I had to get that off my chest. Salton,

30:41 is there any possibility that it's not Buck Celtics in the conference finals? Give us your thesis.

30:47 I think the only thing that could really stop it is an injury. The Bucks have kind of had that issue

30:53 over the past two years. They even had it in '21 when Devin Chenzo got hurt in the first round,

30:58 but more so over the past two years, '22, Chris Middleton, MCL in the first round. 2023,

31:07 Giannis hurts his back 10 minutes into the game. Health has been kind of a big thing for the Bucks.

31:11 They've been freak injuries. Middleton slipped on some sweat. Giannis, Kevin Love taking a charge

31:19 and he just fell on his back. They've been really freak injuries. So as long as both teams are

31:24 healthy, I think they could meet there because looking at the rest of the conference, I don't

31:29 know what's going on in Philadelphia. I thought Harden was- That's the wild card. Not now.

31:35 Maybe if a deadline of things go very badly there, something could materialize out of that,

31:39 but more likely than not, it'd be the West Coast. I thought ultimately Harden was going to go

31:46 somewhere and Drew or Harden was going to go to the Clippers and Holiday was going to go to

31:50 Philadelphia because it just seemed like that would have made sense in Portland, would have

31:55 got more assets, but that ultimately didn't happen. So I don't know what- Is Harden going to go? Is

32:02 Harden going to show up to camp and put a smile on his face and actually play throughout the season?

32:06 Like he's straight up calling Daryl Morey a liar and saying all this bad stuff about him. Like,

32:12 I don't think you can come back from that. And Miami, Miami was supposed to be hunting for stars

32:18 all year. And I know they're coming off a finals run, but one team just got Drew Holiday, Chris

32:27 Stops, guys who have been all-stars and the other team just got one of the best point guards in the

32:33 NBA. Like what have you guys done? They haven't really done anything. So I would put the Bucks

32:40 and the Celtics in their own tier and then everybody else kind of under that. I don't know

32:46 how it's going to shake out. I think there could be some good regular season teams. I think

32:50 Cleveland's going to be really interesting this year with that Donovan Mitchell and Darius Garland

32:57 pairing. I think they could be special. Donovan Mitchell's kind of hot take for me. Donovan

33:02 Mitchell is a dark horse MVP on my end. I think they could win a lot of games in the regular

33:08 season. I think he could really do good. So I think Cleveland will be a good regular season team, but

33:14 everybody else, it's just kind of like, I look at the Bucks and the Celtics and I just see them,

33:20 not to get cocky, but I just see them as kind of like a tier above. And part of that's because of

33:25 the star power. Part of that's because of the experience both teams have. I have questions

33:31 about the coaches for both teams, but I think the players can kind of make up for that. So I do think

33:37 it is, I don't know what order I would put them in. I don't even know who's going to start at

33:41 shooting guard for my team. So it's kind of hard to gauge them a little bit, but I do think it is.

33:48 Yes. I do think it is Bucks, Celtics, and whoever you want to put three through 15, I'll listen.

33:53 But that's just my thoughts. All right. Dalton, you said a lot and I'm going to come back to you

33:59 because I think we're all going to arrive at the conclusion that the Bucks and Celtics will meet at

34:04 some point in the postseason. So I'm going to put you in the spot in a moment and make you make a

34:08 prediction. Dr. Quinn and Alex, I'm also going to ask you to do that before that. I'm going to ask

34:14 each of you why it won't be Bucks and Celtics in the postseason and you're not allowed to pick

34:18 injuries because Dalton already used that. So Alex, I'll go to you first this time. Give us

34:23 a reason why it won't be Bucks and Celtics in the conference finals and you can't say injuries.

34:27 OK. And I can't say like catastrophic climate change renders Boston uninhabitable?

34:35 No, that's like more of a 2030s thing. I can go first if you don't mind.

34:40 No, I got you. I think catastrophic injuries aside, chemistry fit doesn't work with one of

34:50 these two teams. Coaching issues abound and it all just kind of becomes like a needlessly dramatic

34:56 issue where like talent is not enough to save bad vibes. And some team like the Atlanta Hawks gets

35:06 really hot for, you know, at the right time. And like Trey Young goes on a crazy shooting spree or

35:12 like, you know, Donovan Mitchell and Evan Mobley like figured something out and Mobley like takes

35:18 a huge leap. I'm not pegging either of those. Or maybe we get the fabled Joel Embiid like I am the

35:27 best player in the league playoff run. I'm not counting on any of those things happening. But,

35:32 you know, crazy stuff happens in the NBA playoffs all the time.

35:36 All right. We've got injuries. We've got crazy stuff happens. Dr. Gwynn.

35:40 This might fall under crazy stuff happening, but it's different kind of crazy stuff happening that

35:45 I thought Alex was going to do the thing I always do to him, which was steal his idea.

35:49 And in this case, I was kind of hinting at it earlier. You might be able to

35:54 guess where I'm going with this, but there's a certain Eastern Conference team that has been

35:59 hoarding picks with its eye on maybe on his intent to cupo. But if another star were to become very

36:06 pissed off at his current situation because they were not able to solve the James Harden situation,

36:12 if Joel Embiid ends up on the Knicks, that could be a team that could be dangerous enough to take

36:17 out one of those two teams. That's what I was going to say. That's a good one. All right. I'll

36:23 have one. And I think as Bucs and Celtics people were in no position to really argue this is Pat

36:29 Riley. That dude seems to keep making it happen. And the track record's pretty good past couple

36:34 of years. So, oh, you mean, hey, his team has gone to more conference finals appearance than

36:43 any of these teams. So I'm going to say, I'm going to say Pat Riley pulling it out is just as likely

36:51 as the Knicks trading for Embiid this season. If we're being honest, that's true. What would you

36:56 guys think of Harden ending up there? That's the one thing that kind of just keeps like,

37:01 I'm like, Miami's got to make a move. And Philadelphia's got to get rid of Harden.

37:05 Could they maybe work something there? Unless Riley is going to hang it up in two years. He's

37:09 too smart. Like, he's like, let's roll the dice. Let's see what happens. I just I don't think he

37:13 wants any of James Harden's BS. There there are other high powered offensive player borderline

37:20 all star types who I think will be shaking loose within the coming weeks. But I think

37:25 Miami are going to be interested in looking at you Chicago Bulls.

37:30 Yeah, I don't even think I think Riley's too smart for that, too. I think he'll either get

37:36 buddy healed or in a season, they'll get cat or Embiid or something. Anyways, man, we keep

37:42 talking about Joe Cronin, the heat, what the hell? Dalton from behind the box pass and hoops habit.

37:48 We've come to the conclusion the Boston Celtics and the Milwaukee Bucks are on a collision course.

37:52 And we've decided we don't even know what their starting lineups are. We don't know

37:56 if they're gonna be healthy. Who knows what these coaches? All well and good.

38:00 Intellectually honest. Dalton make a prediction. Seven game series go who wins?

38:05 Well, of course, I have to pick the box. I do think I do think though, it would be just a bloodbath

38:13 for seven games. Some of the most exciting basketball that I've ever seen because

38:17 these teams like we've said, our benches are kind of thin. But like these starting fives was when

38:24 the lineup shrink in the playoffs and you're really relying on those top guys. That's crazy.

38:30 Like those are some high profile guys just going at it. Drew Dame, Yannis Porzingis,

38:40 Tatum Brown, all this stuff. Middleton, who I think is going to be better this coming season.

38:44 I think it'd be crazy. But I also something I wonder what you guys think about too.

38:50 I don't think both of these teams are going to look like this when the when the trade deadline

38:54 comes because I know you guys have some more picks that you can trade. And I do think you're

38:58 going to trade for a big in some capacity. I don't know who's going to become available or something,

39:03 but I kind of look at that right now. Like if these teams met right now, my big thing is, okay,

39:08 you guys have good defenders for Middleton and Dame, but who's going to consistently guard Yannis?

39:17 Like I know Horford's there. Horford's been very good at it, but you lost Smart and Grant Williams

39:23 and Robert Williams. And those were those were pretty good guys defending Yannis, you know,

39:27 especially Marcus Smart and Grant Williams could really irritate him at times, you know, with the

39:34 flopping sometimes and the just sometimes good defense. Like those guys were they were good

39:39 Yannis defenders and Porzingis certainly isn't a strong defender in that regard, whereas like

39:44 he's going to lock him down like Horford has done or like Grant Williams has done in the past. So

39:49 I think even if Lillard and Middleton are kind of limited by Brown and all these other guys,

39:55 I think Yannis could do good down low. We saw what he was doing in 2022 when those guys were there,

40:03 when he was putting up, I forget the exact stat line, but it was like first player with 200 points,

40:08 100 rebounds, however many assists in a series or something like that. It was just some crazy

40:14 stat that was showing how much help he didn't have and how much he was producing with those

40:19 quote unquote Yannis stoppers as they've been referred to there. So I'm curious about that.

40:26 Like I said, I do think you'll get somebody, you'll get a big to address that. I don't think

40:32 Brad Stevens is going to be like, oh no, we'll just roll with a Horford, Porzingis and Luke

40:37 Cornette and just be like, yeah, okay, that's fine. And I do think the Bucks certainly don't

40:42 have as much assets as Boston, but I do think something will come. And I think it'll be for

40:48 like a big wing defender for Boston, you know, like something that's kind of just been lingering

40:54 in the back of my head is I wonder if like Philadelphia blows it up. If the Bucks are just

40:57 like, Hey, can we just like get PJ Tucker like back? Can we just have him back? And I know he's,

41:04 I think he's 39, 38. So he's getting up there too, but the Bucks brought them in for one

41:10 playoff run before. So I think they're going to be looking at a big wing, a defensive guy

41:15 and they have, they have decent salary. Like if they're willing to trade Portis and Connington,

41:21 you can match up to like 20 million there. They don't have a lot of picks. I think they have

41:26 very few second round picks even, but yeah, that's just kind of how I look at it.

41:32 Like I drew it out way too much, but if I'm picking right now, I have to be biased and

41:37 pick the box. Even if I don't know who the shooting guard is, I, we can say it'll be Malik

41:42 Beasley. I worried about, I worry about him getting targeted as I have with Grayson Allen, but

41:47 I think the Dame edition is so huge because the Bucks just in the playoffs, they've lacked that.

41:56 Offensive juice for like five years, all three, even like six years, all three of blood. So those

42:03 years couldn't give you enough on offense. All three of Drew's years couldn't give you enough

42:08 on, on offense, except for every once in a while. So even if the defense isn't really there from

42:14 Dame, the offense is going to be, and I think that's going to be huge for everybody else.

42:19 So give me the box. I got one vote box. Uh, Dr. Quinn, Southwest bucks meeting up in the post

42:28 season. Who you got? It's closer than I think a lot of people want to admit. I think both teams

42:34 have some interesting new wrinkles. I mean, I expect to see some post moves out of Yannis.

42:39 If he's spending $50,000 for some post lessons from a master and maybe we won't see those in

42:45 the regular season, but as we have been intimating here, uh, I do think that we will see some very

42:50 new looks from both teams and how they play each other when they do collide in the post season.

42:55 And really, you know, this is going to be sounding like a cop-out, but whichever player has the least

43:02 important player to their rotations, not hurt. I think is going to come away with the wind.

43:08 Obviously I'm biased. Obviously I'm going to pick Celtics, but it's going to be closer than I think

43:13 a lot of us want to be comfortable admitting Alex. Um, well, so if we're going to go with

43:20 biased answers, I'm obviously thinking the Celtics. Um, I think, but I think there are

43:25 some like rational reasons to believe that as well. Um, so to your point earlier, Dalton,

43:31 you know, the honest pick and roll, uh, with Damien Lillard, as I said, is a functionally

43:36 unguardable play. Um, but as you mentioned before, Janice kind of tore the Celtics up in their

43:43 previous series against the bucks and the Celtics found a way to win in spite of that. It's not like

43:50 Janice was playing poorly. He was incredible in all of those series. Um, I think that the deal

43:57 with stopping the bucks is that it's never really been like, we need to shut down Janice because

44:02 barring an injury that is functionally not a thing that happens. You don't shut down Janice.

44:08 That's not how that works. It's about limiting him and about, um, exploiting match-ups on the

44:13 other end to your advantage. I think the Celtics offense is much more dynamic and dangerous with

44:19 the additions of holiday and Porzingis than it was, uh, in previous iterations, relying a lot on

44:24 kind of just isolation brilliance from Jason Tatum and Jalen Brown, for lack of a better word.

44:30 Um, and defensively, while I can see the idea that like, there is a drop-off to some degree,

44:36 I think that one thing I've been kind of beating the drum about all off-season is that Christoph

44:41 Porzingis by the advanced metrics is actually a really good rim protector, um, and has been,

44:47 I think it's more of a scheme issue than a personnel issue for Boston's defense. Can they

44:53 find the right way to play to limit, um, you know, superstars and to kind of maintain effectiveness?

44:59 But the thing I keep coming back to in this match-up is that Brad Stevens hates the idea

45:05 of having any weak links in the defensive chain. And right now, the Celtics starting lineup just

45:11 doesn't have any, like, even if you grant that like Porzingis is probably not great as a perimeter

45:17 defender or Jalen Brown will get back cut at the end of the day, both of those guys are still above

45:23 average for their position on defense. Drew holiday, Derek white, obviously two of the best

45:28 perimeter defenders in the game right now. Jason Tatum has been getting better every single year

45:34 on defense to the point where he is now an actual plus defender in most match-ups and Janice and

45:40 Dame are two generational players. So people are going to have a hard time guarding them always.

45:45 But to me, what it comes down to is that the Celtics are a little bigger. Um, they have a

45:52 little bit more dynamism in terms of just like the sheer number of looks that they can throw at you.

45:59 And frankly, I am a little concerned about, uh, the Bucks rotation outside of their top three,

46:07 uh, Brooke Lopez, another year older to me, I, I didn't love what I saw in the playoffs from Brooke.

46:15 And I get that he was obviously in an impossible situation with Janice injured, but he looked a

46:20 little creaky. Um, that fifth and that wing defense thing, the thing that has always been the Bucks

46:27 Achilles heel in the postseason, like may, maybe Jay Crowder can come back to being a guy. I,

46:35 the reality is I don't think that the Bucks wing defender solution is currently on their roster.

46:42 I think they might be able to acquire that person via a trade or other piece, but to me, as until

46:48 they can solve their wing defense problem, Tatum and Brown just eat every single year against those

46:55 guys. And so it's, it's really hard for me even trying to be somewhat unbiased to pick against

47:01 Boston in that series. But I do think it's going to be a war because Lillard and Janice together

47:07 is just like brutal. I do have to say, I do agree with a lot of what you said. A lot of what you

47:13 said is true. The one thing I will say is that Mike Boone Holzer is gone. That's one of two things.

47:20 I'll say Mike Boone Holzer, as I kind of alluded to earlier, a lot of, a lot of odd decision-making

47:27 in terms of who is playing at certain times. I remember during in against the heat in 2020,

47:34 it's an issue that we've always kind of had. He loves playing guards who are under six foot five

47:40 and telling them, you know, go guard Tatum or Brown or Jimmy Butler. And it just never works

47:47 because they're just going to shoot over them or just take advantage of them. So the box kind of

47:53 address that. I keep going back to the young guys. I'm not expecting the young guys to be a leader,

47:57 anything like that, but they're all over six, six. So I think that certainly helps a little bit,

48:02 especially Bo champ. As I said earlier, I do think they're going to try to get him and just kind of

48:06 like pray that he's, he can be a good defender, hit some threes every once in a while, but

48:12 they're really trying to get that wing defender internally. And they got three of them over six,

48:18 five. Now that was something that's haunted them for years, not saying they're going to be perfect

48:23 and not saying they're going to stop Tatum or Brown. Certainly. I certainly think that wing

48:27 defense is still a problem Crowder, even though I think he'll be better, still a little worried

48:32 about it. But another big thing was the lack of athleticism, which those three guys kind of bring.

48:38 But you know, last year in the playoffs, we had Joe Ingles guarding Jimmy Butler. Like,

48:43 what are we, what are we doing here? We had, I'm trying to think we had Wesley Matthews,

48:50 who is just like, I forget how old he is. He's still breathing, still breathing, still breathing

48:56 now a member of the Hawks, but that's kind of been the box thing is okay. We're the oldest team in

49:01 the league. We really don't have a lot of athletic guys and that's that, you know, we're just going

49:07 to throw grace and Allen or Pat Connerton or Joe Ingles at these guys and hope that they can slow

49:12 them down. And they, they can't, they're just like not tall enough. So that's kind of, that was kind

49:19 of a bud thing, bud loved doing that. He didn't really know how to stagger that. And sometimes

49:24 it was because of personnel, you know, against you guys, Wesley Matthews was, I think Wesley

49:29 Matthews was like the tallest defender they had. And I think he was like six, four, I think

49:34 Connerton might be six, five, but yeah. So I'm kind of, kind of pushing my chips in on the young

49:39 guys and just going to sleep, praying at night that they can be good because if you can get any

49:45 of those guys to be solid defenders, it's going to help in a series against Boston. But like I said,

49:51 I think, I think a trade will be made down the line to get another wing defender, get up a proven

49:56 guy in there and just hope he can do what PJ Tucker did in 2021. Even if you got a trade

50:03 Connerton Portis or even Crowder down the line, you know, that's a hefty chunk of salary there.

50:08 So I am curious. I'm curious to see what both of our teams do as the season progresses and

50:14 something I'm going to keep an eye on for sure. I'll just run it out. I will say that as much as

50:21 I think Damian Lillard is absolute baby food on defense and it's going to be a huge problem for

50:26 the box. He's never played with a player as good as Giannis. And more importantly for this

50:30 conversation, I sincerely believe that most of the time in the NBA, the best player wins a series.

50:36 And there are like LeBron teams from the past where it's like, Ooh, yeah, but like, that's

50:41 really pushing that theory, isn't it? And this maybe has the trappings of that, but I'm going

50:47 to go with the honest in the box, Jason Tatum challenge extended, be the best player in the

50:52 series against the box, which you have done in flashes, but you have needed support. And

50:56 I don't know, I'm going with the Greek freak on this one, even though I,

50:59 I hate think so poorly of Damian Lillard's defense.

51:02 See what you're doing with the PSY ops. They never play well when they are not the underdog.

51:08 No, I'm just keeping it real. Yeah. Yeah. Giannis is a generational MVP and Tatum

51:13 hasn't proven and he is either. So we will see.

51:16 I do think a lot of people kind of, kind of everybody's so focused on the defense,

51:22 but nobody's really talking about how Giannis has never played with a score of like Dames caliber.

51:27 Like Middleton has been a great score, but his career average is like

51:31 less than 20 points per game. I think it might be around just 20, but I mean,

51:36 there was that one series against the Celtics where yeah. Yeah. It was like Michael Jordan,

51:41 but yeah, that's not his game. It's always been about the defense, you know, even with holiday,

51:47 really good defender, but he's never played with another guy who can go get 30 on a nightly basis,

51:52 like average 30, not get 30 because Middleton can obviously, but Dave's a guy who can get you 30

51:57 every single night. If you really wanted him to Giannis has never played with a guy like that.

52:01 And I think that'll help in the playoffs, you know, if everybody stays healthy, which I certainly hope

52:07 that's a, that's huge to have another guy who can take some of that pressure off of Giannis, because

52:13 even look during the finals run, Giannis was dropping 40, 50, just to keep them afloat.

52:18 Sometimes while Middleton and drew were having terrible games. So I think that offense is going

52:24 to be scary. And that's been one of the biggest holes for the bucks year after year after year is

52:28 we don't have enough good scores outside of Giannis and Middleton's mostly been pretty good in the

52:36 playoffs lately, but in the earlier boot and holds or days, he kind of had his issues, but

52:42 really curious to see that two man pick and roll, as you've said before, really curious about it.

52:46 All right. We got to put a pin in it then here tomorrow is media day. We've got training camp

52:53 and we've got breezes. And so let's stop flapping our guns and actually enjoy some NBA basketball.

52:59 Just one other thing before we close out rest in peace, Tim Wakefield, deeply sad for Boston,

53:05 but yeah, Tim Wakefield was the coolest picture that I have seen in a long time. And I just want

53:13 to do that. No, absolutely. That's a somber, but important note to end on. So yeah, we're thinking

53:21 of the Wakefield family. We've been talking to Dalton sell. He comes from behind the bucks,

53:26 pass it, oops, habit. This episode of the South podcast brought to you by fan tool,

53:30 exclusive wagering partner of the CMS media network and AG one, the daily foundational

53:34 nutrition supplement that sports whole body health. As much as we've been talking about

53:37 the NBA postseason, we will be back in a few days to talk about training camp until then.

53:43 Adios new fan, do customers can bet $5 and get 200 in bonus bets. Guarantee. Plus all customers

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54:08 [inaudible].

Are Celtics and Bucks the Beasts of the East? w/ Dalton Sell | Celtics Lab

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