- 04/09/2023
Join Declan and Lewis as they break down this weekend's Scottish football starting with the Old Firm derby.
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00:00 [Music]
00:06 Hello and welcome to National World's Fitba Talk, your nan's favourite football podcast, Ken.
00:12 It's a show where we break down the latest news and results from the Scottish Premiership and around the SPFL.
00:18 I'm your host for today, Lewis Anderson, joined this week by my Glasgow World colleague Declan McConville.
00:23 We're going to be taking a deep dive into Sunday's Old Firm derby, which saw Celtic run out narrow winners over Glasgow rivals Rangers and Ibrox to cap off what has been a dismal week for Michael Beale.
00:35 We'll also take a look at the rest of the weekend's top flight action as well as touching on some of the transfer deadline day activity.
00:43 So, Declan starting with Scottish football's first showpiece fixture of the season.
00:50 Certainly plenty to dissect from the match, a lot of talking points and once again it's Kiyoko Furuhashi's decisive moment proving the difference between the two teams.
01:00 Firstly, what was your take on the match overall?
01:04 It was a result, Lewis, I think that a lot of people probably wouldn't have expected Celtic going to have a makeshift team.
01:13 Obviously, Brendan Rodgers was forced into picking this election, I said that he did.
01:19 I think he would have maybe liked some bodies in a wee bit earlier in the transfer window.
01:22 I think we're going to get on to speak about the likes of Nat Phillips and Bernardo coming in later on in the window.
01:28 But I think going to be a centre back pair, Liam Scales and Gustaf Lagerfeld was something people didn't expect Celtic to go to Ibrox and frustrate, especially with no away fans in.
01:39 I think for a lot of Celtic fans they were feeling the worst, but when you've got quality like Kiyoko and your team, all you need to do is give them the ball in that sort of situation and they can come up with the goods.
01:50 As you say, I think it's a bit of a dismal week for Michael Bale and it's a week where Brendan Rodgers will hope that he's stamped his authority back in the Celtic side and will hope to gain strength from this performance and victory.
02:03 Brendan Rodgers spoke earlier last week about Celtic being weaker than they were last year by his own admission, which I thought was rather interesting.
02:13 Of course, Rangers coming into the game on the back of their Champions League disappointment on Wednesday night against PSV.
02:20 Going into the game, Declan, it was a rather intriguing one, both sides in poor form in all honesty.
02:27 Well, of course, we'd seen Rangers obviously losing the first match of the league down at Killie. Celtic had followed that up in the League Cup, exiting in their first game down at Killie again.
02:39 And obviously, Celtic dropping points at home to St. John's, which was met, you know, by Celtic Park with some sections of support booing the team off.
02:47 So going into it, it seemed a kind of strange week going into it and obviously you jetted off on your travels and we were trying to cover it as well as we could, the central team and whatnot.
02:57 But the build-up to it seemed really strange, I think, due to the fact that obviously Rangers had that crucial Champions League play-off game in Eindhoven.
03:07 So that was the kind of build-up until the Wednesday. And then it was still a focus on transfers coming in the Thursday, Friday and seeing if there was any business still to be done.
03:16 So in terms of build-up, very kind of strange. For it to be the first big game, obviously it was Brendan Rodgers' first derby back.
03:25 And again, I think a lot of Rangers fans have seen this as a kind of, even though Michael Bale had come in in January, they'd seen it as his first kind of, you know, I think it's unfair to say it was his real test in a derby because he had chances in the Scottish Cup and League Cup last year to really stamp his authority on it.
03:42 But one where they thought it was his side and let's see how it gets tested. So in terms of the build-up, anticipation to it, very kind of quiet, but I thought it delivered a pretty decent game to watch actually.
03:56 Yeah, you touched on it there, Michael Bale obviously going through somewhat of a squad rebuild this summer.
04:02 A lot's been made about how their new strike force has kind of yet to fire on all cylinders. You know, their £6 million signing Danilo left on the bench yesterday.
04:12 A lot of fans in the build-up to the game kind of viewed it as a real opportunity to get to that kind of makeshift central defensive partnership that Celtic had in place.
04:22 And ultimately a couple of controversial moments in that first half, two disallowed goals. I want to firstly touch on the Kemar Ruf goal which has disallowed Serie A dessers dispossessing Gustav Lagerbeek deep inside Celtic's territory.
04:41 What was your take on the overall incident?
04:46 Watching the game itself, first of all, it loses the ball. Obviously, the ball's in the back of the net and whatever else.
04:54 But once, you know, I think that's why VAR is there. Without VAR, I don't know if you would have been thinking that's a foul.
05:01 Dawn Robertson certainly lets the play obviously go on in the moment.
05:05 But, you know, to see Bobby Madden's explanation of it on social media, which you've probably seen yourself, it kind of clears it up.
05:14 I know a lot of people will be saying, you know, he's won the ball and whatever else.
05:18 But to me, you know, Lagerbeek is in control of the ball.
05:22 Dessers trips him, takes the ball off him. And again, I think if you flip it in its head, if that's in the penalty box and it's Dessers with the ball at his feet and Lagerbeek does the same, the referee's pointing to the spot and pointing for a penalty to Rangers.
05:36 So in that sort of scenario, I think that Dawn Robertson got it right.
05:42 It was a big call, which, you know, again, Michael Beale's obviously expressed his disappointment and whatnot of it.
05:48 But again, that's all pointing VAR as for the referee to be given that second chance to be clear and obvious, which I think majority football fans just going by the rules themselves.
05:57 If you take off your blue tinted, green tinted specs or whatever, you can see that by the rules, Dawn Robertson actually called that one right.
06:05 But again, I don't think that was too much of a defining moment in the game for me anyway, for Rangers.
06:10 They had plenty of good chances throughout the second half particularly.
06:14 It was a real spell of chances, obviously the Lammers one, I think, is the one that people's going to look at most.
06:19 But I don't think it was too much of a defining moment in the game.
06:23 There's plenty of the game left to play and you shouldn't be dwelling on that kind of incident.
06:27 Of course, yeah. And of course, we have to touch on it, Kyoko Furuhashi, once again, the man to deliver the big moment against Rangers.
06:36 This is becoming quite the norm for the Japanese talisman.
06:41 A terrific finish again, but again, it's come from another real defensive error from Rangers.
06:48 Totally switch off the two defenders, as you said earlier on, Lewis.
06:52 I think Michael Biel would have been looking to get a makeshift Celtic defensive pairing.
06:58 Whereas, we've seen Goldstone and Suter play a lot of games so far together this season.
07:03 They're wide apart, they're totally switched off.
07:05 The interesting part from it, I think from any Celtic fans perspective,
07:09 we've seen Brendan Rodgers try and play a style of football where there's a lot of build-up play.
07:12 The two setter halves have a lot of possession of the ball.
07:15 I think if you'd have probably looked at yesterday, maybe Calum McGregor apart,
07:18 Gustav Lagerfeld and Skjold would have had a real good chunk of the ball in the game.
07:23 But it comes from something very simple and effective from Celtic.
07:25 It's Joe Hart going long, Matt O'Reilly winning that, kind of knock down on.
07:30 Rangers defence switches off, but the finish is absolutely outstanding.
07:33 Jack Butlin's given no chance because he doesn't take the touch.
07:37 He just instinctively knows what he's wanting to do, but he puts his laces right through it and gives Celtic the lead.
07:41 You can even see by his face when he looks after the celebration.
07:44 He's checking the line to make sure he's offside, he's perfectly onside.
07:47 And again for Celtic, having any player of that quality on your team,
07:51 you're going to stand a chance in a game like that when you're maybe going to be up against it.
07:55 He had that really good chance the other on in the game, the one that Abadah flashed across,
08:00 which is a chance you'd probably expect him to do a wee bit better with with the flick.
08:04 But we've seen it so many times from Kiyoko and maybe that's the difference between this current Celtic and Rangers side
08:10 as they've got that finisher that they can really count on.
08:12 And Rangers yesterday have got plenty of them, but they weren't able to put the ball in the back of the net.
08:19 There's a few Celtic players who come under a bit of criticism of late for their performances.
08:25 I have to mention Cal McGregor yesterday.
08:28 He hasn't been at his best.
08:31 I think that's common knowledge to everyone so far this season.
08:34 He was outstanding, ran the show in the middle of the park, really helped to dictate the play.
08:39 And I want to touch on Liam Scales as well.
08:41 I know a lot was made about Celtic's defensive partnership yesterday.
08:45 And let's face it, it's not going to be the number one pairing going forward.
08:49 We all know that once Kartivickers and Naroski are back from injury.
08:54 But Scales really stepped up to the mark, I thought, after quite a shaky start,
09:00 particularly in that second half, a number of crucial interventions.
09:03 What did you make of his display, Declan?
09:06 I thought he really grew into the game.
09:08 From an early point, he was winning headers and whatnot.
09:11 Again, these games are always going to be physical.
09:14 I think Michael Biel, too, had a look at trying to get that pace in behind,
09:18 especially playing Matondo.
09:20 I think if we had had this conversation two or three weeks ago, Lewis,
09:23 before Matondo comes on to play PSV Eindhoven at Ibrox,
09:26 I don't think he's getting anywhere near that range of start.
09:29 Milovan obviously came out, Roof comes back in at Dingwall, gets his goal.
09:33 And he's put in, too.
09:34 Again, I don't think that's really settled down for Michael Biel.
09:37 But Scales and Lagerbelka, too, I thought would really help.
09:41 Parts of the sports scene last night showed O'Reilly and MacGregor
09:45 dropping deep to just give them that wee bit of protection.
09:48 I think as a central defender, when you've got another player
09:51 ten yards in front of you, you just know you've got that wee bit of cover.
09:54 So I think that was a big part of what Celtic did really well
09:57 and obviously what Brendan Rodgers did well yesterday.
10:00 But fair play to the two of them to come into a derby game like that.
10:03 Their first derby game as a pairing.
10:05 Obviously, I would have imagined, even had that fillip screen maybe fit,
10:09 he might have just stuck with that.
10:11 If that had been what Brendan Rodgers had worked with all week,
10:14 he would have maybe just stuck with that.
10:16 But fair play to both of them because they certainly initiated themselves
10:21 into the game.
10:22 Yes, Rangers got joy.
10:23 I think a lot of the time over the top, they were playing high balls,
10:25 which they were getting joy in.
10:27 And again, I think I mentioned to Joe Hart,
10:29 having a calm and experienced figure like that behind you,
10:32 I think just kind of settles you down in a big game like that.
10:35 And just with his experience,
10:37 helps to probably talk the two players through the game.
10:40 And quite rightly, I think a lot of disgruntled Rangers fans
10:44 on the back of this, of course, it was a capacity home crowd.
10:47 No away fans inside Ibrox on Sunday.
10:50 I want to touch on Michael Beale.
10:53 Obviously, there's been a big turnover of players there,
10:56 as we're well aware.
10:57 Perhaps a number of their new signings yet to really create
11:02 a real favourable impression.
11:04 There's already been talk on Sky Sports yesterday,
11:07 they were saying how long does Michael Beale get at this early stage
11:11 in the season.
11:12 Where do you kind of stand on that at the moment,
11:15 given that there has been such an overhaul of players?
11:19 It's very difficult because obviously he came in in December last year,
11:24 just kind of post-World Cup.
11:27 And given that chance, two transfer windows so far,
11:31 there wasn't many players coming through the door in January.
11:34 But of course, he brought in Cantwell and Raskin,
11:36 who are two players I think Rangers fans can set their points
11:39 on to deliver for them.
11:40 And in the summer, he's brought in a lot of players.
11:43 That was certainly Michael Beale's team yesterday.
11:46 I think it's the manner again,
11:48 Lewis had a defeat midweek in Champions League.
11:51 Rangers getting that two each draw at Ibrox and taking the lead
11:56 I think twice in the game, if I'm correct in saying that,
11:58 twice they took the lead at Ibrox in the game.
12:01 And then just the performance over there.
12:03 Again, they created chances in Eindhoven.
12:05 It was not a reflective, I think from large parts of the game,
12:09 that that was how it was going to finish.
12:10 But we know PSV is a step up in quality, absolutely.
12:14 But again, if you look back the year previous,
12:17 Rangers fans getting to that Europa League final against Seville,
12:21 obviously they knocked out PSV to get into the Champions League last season.
12:26 They've probably taken a step backwards.
12:28 And again, I think the manner this week will not sit right for Rangers fans.
12:33 Going out of Europe, it's such a huge margin in aggregate.
12:37 Obviously, we have a 5-1 thump in there,
12:40 translating into a 7-3 aggregate defeat.
12:43 And then having a capacity crowd,
12:45 it's the right time.
12:47 We've heard Brendan Rodgers speak about coming off the back of the Nilnall against St. Johnson
12:51 and a Rangers game being the perfect type of game
12:54 for players to really lift themselves and go at it.
12:57 That should have been the mentality of Michael Biel.
12:59 And it almost looks as if he maybe overthought it a wee bit yesterday.
13:02 But I think for that manner of crashing out of Europe,
13:06 and then, you know, and again,
13:08 a defeat to Killies coming back to haunt them.
13:11 Four points behind at such an early juncture
13:13 is not what Rangers fans would have wanted.
13:16 Obviously, there'll be favourites to win the League Cup.
13:18 I think that's fair to say just now as well.
13:21 We still don't know what will be in the competition.
13:24 It just depends.
13:25 You know, I think it's football nowadays,
13:27 very easy to sack managers very quickly.
13:29 When you've given him the time and the money to build his own team,
13:34 you need to let him see what he does with that.
13:36 But they can't afford to slip any further behind.
13:39 I think in the coming months, because, you know,
13:41 I think as soon as you take any of the jobs at either Glasgow side,
13:45 you're always looking over your shoulder.
13:47 But, you know, when you experience a week like that,
13:51 you know, the pressure goes right on you.
13:53 Yeah.
13:54 So as you touched on there, just finally,
13:56 a four-point lead going into the international break,
13:59 coming up a strong position for Celtic to be in.
14:03 Rangers, of course, already playing catch-up.
14:06 What do you feel winning this,
14:08 we know statistics will show you that winning the first goal from Derby,
14:13 that team more often than not goes on to win the league.
14:17 What do you feel this does in terms of building some early season momentum,
14:21 given that Brendan Rodgers has still kind of got to win over certain aspects of the Celtic support?
14:28 I think it was a bit of a turning point yesterday.
14:30 I think anybody in Scottish football can help laugh, you know,
14:34 sunglasses on, window down and the fist pumping out the car.
14:39 I think, you know, if you look back on Rodgers,
14:43 I think he's maybe hitting around 100 days since he returned to Celtic.
14:46 It might just be over 100 days.
14:48 And you know yourself, the profile manager, Lewis, just looking at him,
14:51 it's been pretty quiet.
14:53 There's not been too much, you know, of Rodgers in the spotlight and whatever else.
14:56 He's played doing a lot of stuff.
14:58 Yesterday when he walked into that press conference, just looking at it,
15:01 it looked as if he had a wee bit more of a swagger about him.
15:04 He had a wee, you know, he touched on a kind of media hunt,
15:07 which was quite interesting comments from him.
15:10 He's obviously been keeping that under his breath.
15:12 We've heard what he said about transfers.
15:14 I think that's a very particular line for anybody who works in Scottish media,
15:18 when he was talking about, you know, managing what was there and what not.
15:22 I think it almost signals a wee bit of a turning point.
15:25 I hesitate to say that because the next game, I think, is a better indicator of that.
15:29 We see Celtic up against Dundee, which will be, you know, less than two weeks away.
15:34 I think that'll be a better indicator for that.
15:36 But Rodgers will certainly be hoping that they can try and build momentum now
15:39 and really go full steam ahead.
15:41 He's obviously going to get players back, which will be really important for Celtic.
15:45 And they'll be hoping to make their mark in the Champions League if they can,
15:48 if we do get one to talk about those groups that they've been given.
15:51 So looking at some of the rest results from the weekend,
15:56 there, finished Cormarket 0, Ross County 1, Livingston 1, St Mirren 1,
16:00 St Johnston 2, Dundee 2, and on Sunday, Aberdeen 0, Hibernian 2,
16:06 Hearts 0, Motherwell 1.
16:09 A couple of interesting results, particularly on Sunday,
16:13 Motherwell level on points with Celtic at the top of the table.
16:17 I don't think many would have maybe expected them to go through to Tyne Castle,
16:21 given their recent record, and pick up maximum points there.
16:25 I know Hearts have been in a bit of a rut,
16:27 but that was certainly a result that stood out to me, Declan.
16:30 I think for some of the teams lose, it's always good to catch a Scottish side
16:33 after they've had European football midweek.
16:36 You see that with Hearts, Hibs and Aberdeen all losing on Sunday.
16:41 So, sorry, not Hibs, of course. Hibs went up to Petardraid 1.
16:45 But the game was almost, well, the game was done, I think, in the first leg down at Villa.
16:52 But you look at Aberdeen and Hearts suffering defeat,
16:56 I think for some of them they want to catch them.
16:58 Motherwell's had a great start to the season,
17:00 and they had a really strong finish to the season last year after Stuart Kettlewell came in.
17:04 So, fair play to them.
17:05 Again, a club who really manage their budget well.
17:08 They've seen a big turnover, and obviously the run-in at the club with Alan Burrows
17:11 heading up to Aberdeen, but they're continuing on.
17:14 Hibs, Hibs-Aberdeen, I think was an interesting result.
17:17 Obviously, Aberdeen fans will be really aggrieved at the hacking result.
17:22 It would have been interesting to be with Martin on today to hear his thoughts on that.
17:25 Because, you know, coming back in the first leg, I think a lot of people would have thought
17:29 getting back at Petardraid, getting in there, and it would have been a real,
17:32 you know, I think for Aberdeen to get in at Europa League would have been a real,
17:36 kind of, pick-me-up for the city and the team.
17:39 But, I'm interested to listen to Barry Robson after the game yesterday.
17:42 He was talking about, you know, they'll be fine this season and whatnot.
17:45 For some of the teams, it might just be getting that kind of European football
17:49 out of their system and then coming back after the international break.
17:52 But, yeah, Hearts, Hearts have been a bit disappointing, I would say.
17:56 Out of all the, kind of, what we would call the big clubs this season,
17:59 not really going at all.
18:01 And again, I think the kind of set-up there is still puzzling a lot of people
18:05 when they look at Frankie McEvoy and Stephen Naismith
18:08 and how that actually works and develops.
18:12 And again, the other results around the Leagues at Murn are still doing pretty well.
18:18 There was late drama in one of the games on Saturday too.
18:21 So, yeah, set-up quite nicely so far.
18:24 I'd be interested to see what happens when we come back from the international break.
18:27 It was Dundee who considered that really late goal to St. John's on Saturday, wasn't it?
18:33 That's right, yeah.
18:34 96th minute, I think it was.
18:37 Yeah, so moving on, just finally let's touch on some of the Transfer Deadline Day activity,
18:43 particularly Celtic, as there was...
18:45 We kind of knew it was common knowledge that it was going to be a busier end
18:49 to the transfer window for Celtic.
18:51 That turned out to be the case.
18:53 Nat Phillips, the defender, arriving from Liverpool on loan.
18:58 They also brought in Paulo Bernardo on a season-long loan
19:02 with an option to buy from Benfica.
19:04 Leila Bader, who signed a new four-year deal.
19:09 And Sead Hakzibanovic heading in the opposite direction
19:13 and joining Stoke City on a season-long loan.
19:17 Let's start with the arrivals of Bernardo and Nat Phillips.
19:23 Pleased to get those two players in the door?
19:27 Paulo Bernardo looks like a Jota profile.
19:31 Obviously, different positions.
19:33 But, shopping in that market, it seems to have worked for Celtic.
19:38 And having that option to buy on, it's quite interesting.
19:40 I'd be interested to see where he fits in.
19:42 I think naturally, just now, you'd be looking at keeping MacGregor and O'Reilly together
19:46 and probably introducing Bernardo.
19:48 We had Turnbull's playing just now.
19:50 But of course, we've still got Rio Hattati to come back there.
19:52 So, it'd be interesting to see how that kind of develops in that midfield.
19:55 Nat Phillips was one who...
19:58 Would he have came in?
19:59 Do you think Lewis had Celtic not suffered that injury crisis?
20:02 I don't think so.
20:03 No, I couldn't see it personally.
20:05 But a player who seems to thrive in any injury crisis for anybody.
20:10 So, he'll be an interesting one.
20:13 I can't see Celtic actually being able to afford him.
20:17 If he does become available, I think Liverpool would be looking for really decent money.
20:21 And again, obviously, English profile type defender.
20:25 Surprising that maybe Bournemouth or a Luton or somebody didn't maybe pick him up down there
20:30 to fit that quota that the Premier League sides have to fulfil.
20:35 But, really good stage for him to come up.
20:38 And he'll be hoping to try and impress probably Jurgen Klopp during those Champions League games.
20:43 And again, I think he might be an important part of Celtic's team.
20:46 They seem well-stocked now on either wing.
20:51 You could say Leo Labada, of course.
20:53 A lot of speculation linking him with a move elsewhere this summer.
20:57 Brendan Rodgers was quite vocal about him wanting to stay at the club.
21:01 A new four-year deal, that seems to me a terrific bit of business.
21:05 Yeah, especially with the kind of profile of teams that we're looking around him
21:08 in Ajax and Sporting Lisbon.
21:10 Two great sides, two sides who have a real pedigree and respect in European football.
21:18 Yeah, I think Labada has certainly bought into Rodgers' plans at Celtic.
21:24 And Sead Haksibanovic leaving for Stoke City on loan.
21:28 I know it was between Stoke and Palk, the Greek side,
21:31 who were really trying to push this deal over the line.
21:35 It's Stoke that managed to secure his signature.
21:39 Kind of inevitable, given his...
21:43 We're all aware of the Instagram post he put out last week about not feeling wanted at the club.
21:51 That was kind of a clear indication that he wasn't happy.
21:54 I just don't think you could probably do that, especially when a new manager comes in.
21:58 I'd be very surprised if Sead Haksibanovic wears a Celtic jersey again.
22:02 After that, I think Celtic would have been in.
22:05 No doubt he had to go out the door.
22:09 You cannot create an environment where players are acting in such a manner.
22:15 And he's a player who, I think for a lot of Celtic fans,
22:19 is flattered to deceive a lot of the times.
22:23 He's put an okay impact sub.
22:26 He came up with important goals last season, particularly around that pre-World Cup break.
22:33 But he's not really delivered as a first-team player.
22:36 I don't think any time under Ange Pozda-Koglou,
22:39 people would have been wanting Jota, Maida or Abad.
22:42 I'd have hoped for Sead Haksibanovic to go in there.
22:46 I'd be hoping he'd go down to Stoke as well and probably be looking to shift him on,
22:50 especially with the kind of wingers and whatnot that they've brought into the club.
22:54 We were talking about outgoings.
22:55 I think Celtic fans would be really happy to get out the door.
22:58 He's held Winnie Yeti due to the wages and whatnot.
23:01 He probably goes down as one of the worst buys in Celtic's history.
23:05 I think he's worked out at £500,000 every goal he's scored,
23:08 which is not good value for money.
23:10 But having a £5 million player in the building and only getting £500,000 for him,
23:14 really, in the space of three years, is not good business.
23:19 But they'll be happy to get him off the wage bill, I'd imagine.
23:22 Somebody of that profile would have signed on £20,000, £25,000 to maybe even £30,000 a week.
23:28 So I think Celtic would be happy to get him out the door too.
23:31 Well, that's all we've got time for on this week's show.
23:35 A big thanks to my guest, Declan, for joining me this afternoon.
23:38 Next week, of course, the international break is in full swing,
23:41 so we'll be discussing all things Scotland as their quest to reach Euro 2024 continues.
23:47 [Music]
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