The NEU's Ian Watkinson on the RAAC concrete crisis

NationalWorld.com

National World LDR reporter Paul Faulkner talks to the National Education Union's health and safety committee chair Ian Watkinson about the ongoing RAAC concrete crisis

Transcript

00:00 Ian Watkinson, you're the National Lead for Health and Safety with the National Education

00:05 Union and you're not particularly happy are you with the way the situation is being handled

00:09 over rack concrete as it's known, this material that can collapse without warning when it

00:14 reaches the end of its natural lifespan. But the government for its part says that we're

00:18 only in this position with schools being told to close at short notice and uncertainty around

00:23 others while they're investigated because they've taken such a cautious approach. If

00:27 you've got an interest in health and safety, surely that's an approach you'd advocate,

00:31 isn't it?

00:33 Well it's last minute, it's incredibly last minute. The government's known about the problems

00:38 with rack for a long time. There was a classroom ceiling collapse back in 2018 and following

00:48 that there was some action taken and a self-assessment survey sent out to schools and the government

00:55 appears to have been trying to gather information because of that situation since then. However,

01:01 for things to change two days or three days before the start of term is an absolute disgrace.

01:07 It leaves schools and headteachers in an impossible situation. It's leaving parents and children

01:14 trying to make different arrangements because of this last minute announcement that the

01:20 schools are going to have to be checked. Now I completely respect if there's a concern

01:24 about safety then absolutely the schools have got to be checked and we need to know that

01:29 it's safe for children and staff to be in those schools but the government have known

01:34 for a long time that there's a problem so leaving it until the last minute is frankly

01:39 ridiculous.

01:40 But they didn't know that the risk had changed, did it? That's what's changed over the course

01:44 of the past few weeks, that rack that wasn't deemed to be in a critical state was considered

01:50 safe for now whereas things have happened over the summer particularly the collapse

01:55 of one particular beam that have indicated that even rack that isn't deemed critical

01:59 might not be safe to be left for any length of time. So they had to act, didn't they?

02:04 They had no choice.

02:06 It's right that they've acted if they've finally recognised that there is a critical risk but

02:11 those critical risks were identified way back and only this morning or yesterday evening

02:18 a former civil servant, senior civil servant described a situation where it was crystal

02:24 clear that there were hundreds, potentially more, schools at a critical risk of collapse

02:32 and a critical and imminent risk of collapse and that was several years ago and I'm sure

02:40 some of your listeners and readers will have been hearing about Rishi Sunak's response

02:43 to that as he was the Chancellor at the time and rather than investing in the remedial

02:49 works that needed to be done he slashed the budget and cut it more than in half. So absolutely

02:56 safety first of course, safety is paramount but parents, teachers, staff, head teachers

03:03 need to know that their school is safe for them to work in and for children to learn

03:09 in and what's equally perplexing is that there's a marked reluctance to tell us where the schools

03:15 that they actually know about so far and they don't know about all of them, they won't tell

03:19 us where they are.

03:20 Well it's been reported that there's 450 schools where RAC is suspected based on an initial

03:28 self-assessment survey but they haven't yet had a follow-up survey done. The Education

03:33 Secretary said on the BBC this morning that those surveys will be completed within the

03:38 next two weeks. What do you think should happen to those schools in that fortnight entering

03:43 period?

03:46 Well it's yeah so if we've got a school where RAC is suspected and there is that critical

03:53 risk of an imminent collapse then it's got to be a safety first approach. So in those

03:59 schools where they've had the extra surveys and they're having to either partially close

04:03 or fully close and move learning regrettably online for a few days in some of those schools

04:09 or into quarter cabins then if that's the case then that needs to happen. It's got to

04:13 be a safety first approach but I'm not sure that we recognise the numbers. 450 is a scary

04:18 amount but Gillian Keegan also made reference to 10% of the entire school estate not having

04:25 the details on 10% of those so that's over 2,000 schools. So there's different numbers

04:30 being bandied about. We need to know where those schools are, have they been surveyed

04:35 and if they have been surveyed and got RAC what's going to happen about it?

04:39 That 450 figure I should say it's not known whether the RAC within that's suspected would

04:44 be in a critical state because the follow-up survey hasn't been done but when you say a

04:49 safety first approach what would that mean to you closing those 450 as a precaution even

04:55 if they might not contain critical state RAC?

05:00 Well it's not known isn't it? It's that uncertainty Paul. So if you're not sure then it's got

05:04 to be a safety first approach. If there's any doubt whatsoever that a school could,

05:09 is at imminent risk of collapse or partial collapse whether that's a ceiling coming in

05:14 or something along those lines which are the things that have happened so far that are

05:19 known about then it's got to be safety first. There's been massive disruption with education

05:25 throughout COVID obviously and not forgetting that we had some unbelievably last minute

05:30 government announcements around that time as well but it's got to be safety first. At

05:35 the same time these sort of plans should have been in place for this, plans should have

05:40 been in place for this a long time before now, two days, three days before the start

05:45 of term isn't good enough.

05:48 Just to push you on that then, safety first approach does that mean all 450 should shut

05:52 or?

05:53 I don't know enough about those 450 schools Paul and I know you're pushing me and you

05:57 want me to say they should be shut or they shouldn't shut without knowing the full details

06:01 on those schools but if there's any doubt, if there's a chance that those schools could

06:06 collapse or they're at a critical risk of imminent collapse then it's got to be a safety

06:11 first approach and the safety of children and staff has to come first. So those schools,

06:17 if it's 450 schools that we know about where I suspect it's a lot more than that then

06:23 they have to be prioritised and we need to know if those schools are safe to be open

06:27 or not.

06:29 Just looking slightly to the longer term finally, what do you want to happen next because this

06:33 is obviously going to be a situation that's going to take some resolving over quite a

06:37 long period of time isn't it?

06:39 It is, it's going to take a long time and it's going to need serious investments. The

06:45 school's capital budget has been underfunded for well over a decade, they're billions short

06:51 of spending the amount of money that's needed to bring the school estate up to scratch.

06:57 Asbestos exists, it's present in around 90% of all schools so that's going to create a

07:02 huge problem in itself for all those schools where a rack remedial work needs to take place

07:07 but we're looking for a programme of asbestos removal and making schools safe in that way

07:14 alongside this rack situation. So it's going to take a massive investment but it is time,

07:21 it's long overdue time for this to happen. There really shouldn't be anything more important

07:26 than the safety of children learning at school.

07:30 Ian Wilkinson, thank you very much indeed for talking to us.

07:33 You're welcome.

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